13:58:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
13:58:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-rdfa-irc
13:58:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:58:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
13:58:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:57 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
13:58:57 <trackbot> Date: 28 October 2010
13:59:08 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Oct/0279.html
13:59:11 <manu1> Chair: Manu
13:59:23 <manu1> Present: Benjamin, Ivan, Knud, Manu, Steven, Nathan
13:59:55 <Steven> Ivan is chairing another call at the moment
14:00:05 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
14:00:06 <Zakim> +??P36
14:00:24 <webr3> I am ?
14:00:24 <Zakim> + +3539149aaaa
14:00:24 <Zakim> - +3539149aaaa
14:00:24 <Zakim> + +3539149aaaa
14:00:54 <Zakim> +??P43
14:00:58 <Knud> I am aaaa
14:01:05 <manu1> zakim, I am ?P43
14:01:05 <Zakim> sorry, manu1, I do not see a party named '?P43'
14:01:08 <manu1> zakim, I am P43
14:01:08 <Zakim> sorry, manu1, I do not see a party named 'P43'
14:01:12 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P43
14:01:12 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
14:01:16 <Knud> zakim, I am aaaa
14:01:16 <Zakim> +Knud; got it
14:01:23 <Knud> zakim, mute me
14:01:23 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted
14:01:23 <webr3> zakim, I am ??P36
14:01:24 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
14:01:25 <Zakim> +ShaneM
14:01:35 <Knud> morning!
14:01:42 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
14:01:45 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call?
14:01:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see webr3, Knud (muted), manu1, ShaneM
14:02:07 <Knud> the W3C should increase the numbers of lines for their UK access point...
14:03:28 <Benjamin> Yes it should. The french number is not working and the UK number is busy. 
14:05:17 <Zakim> +??P26
14:05:17 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:05:18 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:05:18 <Zakim> +Steven
14:05:18 <manu1> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/
14:05:44 <Benjamin> zakim, I am ??P26
14:05:44 <Zakim> +Benjamin; got it
14:06:02 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me
14:06:02 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted
14:07:48 <manu1> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Oct/0279.html
14:07:50 <Knud> The HTML5 spec wars
14:09:00 <Knud> It's not so hard!
14:09:54 <manu1> Scribe: Nathan
14:10:01 <manu1> scribenick: webr3
14:10:19 <manu1> Topic: XHTML+RDFa preparation for LC
14:10:46 <webr3> Topic: XHTML+RDFa preparation for LC
14:12:11 <webr3> ShaneM: I'm available over the next couple of weeks to get LC ready
14:14:09 <webr3> manu1: Knud and Thomas Steiner will have comments in by weekend, try to get a straw poll next thursday, Stephen and Ivan to send via mailing list as away next week
14:15:09 <webr3> manu1: provisional LC publishing date Tuesday 9th November
14:15:12 <manu1> Topic: RDFa Core Test Suite
14:15:17 <webr3> Topic: RDFa Core Test Suite
14:16:16 <webr3> manu1: thinking this time around we can spend less time discussing test suite on telecon and encourage test submission via mailing list from implementers
14:16:36 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about test suite control
14:17:02 <webr3> manu1: implementers can / will naturally provide UAT for Test Suite
14:17:16 <manu1> ack shanem
14:17:16 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about test suite control
14:18:15 <webr3> ShaneM: I agree with process, think that if you're submitting a test case you should suggest for all host languages (XHTML+ and HTML+)
14:18:26 <webr3> s/suggest/submit
14:19:39 <webr3> ShaneM: there was a bottleneck last time for getting tests in to the manifest, would be good to have this bottleneck cleared this time
14:20:22 <webr3> manu1: manifests are all on github and are easily managed, manifests contain full details of each test, asks for clarification on bottleneck
14:21:13 <webr3> ShaneM: perhaps bottleneck has been cleared previously.. how are you suggesting I add a test case?
14:21:29 <webr3> manu1: normal github process, etc
14:21:43 <webr3> ShaneM: okay, great
14:22:57 <ShaneM> (maybe reserve the right to have test issues raised to a call?)
14:23:08 <webr3> manu1: clarify, we are removing discussion of tests from telecons and moving to mailing list process
14:23:21 <webr3> ShaneM: (maybe reserve the right to have test issues raised to a call?)
14:23:47 <webr3> Topic: RDFa API
14:23:53 <webr3> Scribe: manu1
14:24:29 <manu1> Nathan: There are several issues w/ RDFa API while implementing over the last 2-3 months
14:24:39 <manu1> Nathan: Some of them are small issues, fairly easy to fix
14:24:54 <manu1> Nathan: Some of them require a restructuring around DataStore - good chunk of time to sort that out.
14:25:03 <manu1> Nathan: Perhaps we can clear up some of the smaller issues today?
14:25:15 <manu1> Nathan: I sent an e-mail to mailing list yesterday about this
14:25:21 <webr3> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Oct/0310.html
14:25:53 <manu1> Nathan: We have no way in the API at the moment to see if two nodes are equal.
14:26:09 <manu1> Subtopic: ISSUE-49 RDFNode type, equality and canonicalization
14:26:23 <manu1> Topic: It's a simple proposal, add a .equals() method to RDFNode.
14:26:39 <manu1> s/Topic:/Nathan:/
14:26:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:26:54 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:26:56 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:27:51 <manu1> Nathan: Second sub-issue is how do we canonicalize?
14:28:09 <manu1> trackbot, ISSUE-49?
14:28:09 <trackbot> Sorry, manu1, I don't understand 'trackbot, ISSUE-49?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
14:28:13 <manu1> zakim, ISSUE-49?
14:28:13 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, manu1.
14:29:05 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/49
14:30:11 <ivan> <http://dfasfasd.asdfasda>
14:30:32 <manu1> Manu: I'm concerned that we're making a decision to support N-Triples.
14:30:48 <manu1> q+ to discuss NTriples for RDFTriples.
14:31:12 <manu1> Ivan: No, we're just stating a canonicalization format.
14:31:15 <manu1> ack manu
14:31:15 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss NTriples for RDFTriples.
14:33:02 <manu1> Manu: I know we're talking canonicalization, but we're also saying that we're going to serialize to NTriples to do that.
14:33:07 <manu1> Nathan: That's correct.
14:34:41 <manu1> Ivan: This is what happens in rdflib
14:35:02 <manu1> Ivan: rdflib will create NTriples to serialize the string.
14:35:04 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
14:35:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see webr3, Knud (muted), manu1, ShaneM, Benjamin (muted), Steven, Ivan
14:35:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, RRSAgent, Benjamin, Knud, Steven, trackbot, Zakim, manu1, ivan, webr3
14:35:29 <manu1> Nathan: The other issues is the NoInterfaceObject, which means typeof() will return "undefined"
14:35:44 <manu1> Nathan: There is no way to know if a plain literals is what it is.
14:36:08 <manu1> Nathan: We also need a way to expose which interface is implemented. nodeType property or something of that sort.
14:37:38 <Benjamin> I like and support these changes
14:37:41 <manu1> Ivan: We should call toNT() something like toCanonical()
14:39:49 <manu1> General agreement that the changes that Nathan proposes are good and the group wants to make them.
14:39:56 <webr3> ISSUE-55 Specifying that implementations must implement TypedLiteralConverters for all xsd numerical types 
14:40:21 <manu1> Subtopic: Specifying that implementations must implement TypedLiteralConverters for all xsd numerical types 
14:40:28 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/55
14:41:38 <manu1> Nathan: Basically, we should support all the basic xsd: types 
14:41:54 <manu1> Manu: So, the default context in RDFa API should provide all these type converters by default?
14:42:36 <manu1> Nathan: Yes, RDFa implementations MUST support typed literal converters for basic xsd: numerical types 
14:42:44 <manu1> Ivan: What about dates?
14:43:00 <manu1> Nathan: Supporting xsd:date is already in the spec.
14:43:09 <manu1> Nathan: We support date dateTime etc.
14:43:28 <manu1> Nathan: This change is specifically about numerical types.
14:44:18 <manu1> Manu: How do we get rid of typed literal converters?
14:44:22 <manu1> Nathan: That's another issues.
14:44:57 <manu1> From the issue: (xsd:int/double/decimal/unsigned* positive* etc.)
14:46:09 <manu1> General agreement from the group that we want to support this mechanism.
14:47:30 <webr3> ISSUE-58 PlainLiteral and TypedLiteral value for strings 
14:47:42 <manu1> Subtopic: ISSUE-58: PlainLiteral and TypedLiteral value for strings 
14:48:20 <manu1> Nathan: What is the value for a plain literal when you have special characters? Should the output be encoded into JavaScript?
14:48:30 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/58
14:49:00 <manu1> Ivan: What is the rule in RDFa? We copy the bytes verbatim?
14:49:04 <manu1> Shane: Yes, that is correct.
14:49:19 <webr3> Primarily, if we have the following triple:
14:49:19 <webr3>   <#nbsp> <http://example.com/lit> "Hello \n\tWorld." .
14:49:19 <webr3> Do we expect the related call to object.toString() and/or object.value to return
14:49:19 <webr3> "Hello \n\tWorld."
14:49:19 <webr3> or
14:49:19 <manu1> Shane: Actually, it's not in unicode, we don't change the document encoding.
14:49:20 <webr3> "Hello
14:49:22 <webr3>     World." 
14:50:02 <manu1> Manu: It's the second one.
14:50:17 <manu1> Shane: The data isn't transformed, if you need to transform it, you have to do it - JSON-encode it, whatever.
14:50:24 <manu1> Nathan: Great, that works.
14:51:24 <manu1> General agreement that we do not attempt to encode the plain literal data in any way, we pass the data through.
14:52:44 <webr3> ISSUE-57 TypedLiteralConverter Failures and Exceptions 
14:52:55 <webr3> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/57
14:52:59 <manu1> Subtopic: ISSUE-57: TypedLiteralConverter Failures and Exceptions
14:54:01 <manu1> Nathan: I'm proposing that we don't generate any exceptions.
14:57:08 <manu1> Nathan: There is a third option - null or undefined.
14:57:18 <manu1> Nathan: Having out-of-band information may be messy.
14:57:36 <manu1> Nathan: When you use complex types, it could become messy.
14:57:58 <manu1> Nathan: Just returning the same thing that was passed in may be impossible.
14:59:18 <manu1> Manu: Perhaps we should use 'undefined' instead of 'null'
14:59:24 <ShaneM> I can't imagine a type literal that would need to map to undefined?
14:59:34 <manu1> Ivan: What's the style in webapps programming? 'null' or 'undefined'
15:00:02 <manu1> Nathan: This is a slightly different case - normally you'd be dealing w/ booleans, strings, integers, etc.
15:00:15 <manu1> Nathan: I think this is unique to the RDF API.
15:02:25 <Zakim> -Benjamin
15:02:45 <manu1> "\\0"
15:03:05 <Benjamin> Benjamin has joined #rdfa
15:03:24 <manu1> <> foaf:name \NULL .
15:03:52 <ShaneM> <> foaf:name \NULL^pointer
15:03:56 <webr3> rdf:nil
15:04:01 <manu1> <> foaf:name "^^xsd:null" .
15:04:17 <manu1> <> foaf:name "^^mytype:null" .
15:05:05 <manu1> <> foaf:name "^^mytype:undefined" .
15:07:04 <manu1> Manu: I think we should use 'undefined'
15:07:22 <manu1> Nathan: I think we should use 'null'
15:07:47 <manu1> Shane: In XML, you have nil-able values - it's perfectly legal, null would be used in that case.
15:08:05 <manu1> Shane: We should marshall it as something - maybe the empty string, not "null" or something like that.
15:08:10 <manu1> Ivan: empty string is different.
15:08:43 <manu1> Nathan: Could you implement 'undefined' in Python?
15:08:53 <manu1> Ivan: I may be able to use None?
15:09:19 <manu1> Shane: You can explicitly check to see if its none.
15:09:33 <manu1> Ivan: This is a common idiom in Python.
15:09:42 <manu1> q+ to end the telecon
15:10:47 <manu1> ack
15:10:51 <manu1> ack manu1
15:10:51 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to end the telecon
15:11:06 <manu1> Ivan: 'None' in Python is a keyword.
15:14:03 <Zakim> -Steven
15:14:04 <Zakim> -webr3
15:14:06 <Zakim> -Knud
15:14:10 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:14:11 <Zakim> -manu1
15:14:12 <ivan> zakim, drop me
15:14:12 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
15:14:14 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
15:14:16 <Zakim> Attendees were +3539149aaaa, manu1, Knud, webr3, ShaneM, Steven, Benjamin, Ivan
15:14:59 <manu1> General agreement that a failed conversion for valueOf() should be communicated in-band - using something like 'null' or 'undefined'. Nathan will ask WebApps for guidance for the type used.
15:17:20 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #rdfa
16:03:01 <manu1> trackbot, bye
16:03:01 <trackbot> trackbot has left #rdfa
16:03:03 <manu1> zakim, bye
16:03:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
16:03:08 <manu1> rrsagent, bye
16:03:08 <RRSAgent> I see no action items