IRC log of CSS on 2010-10-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:52:07 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/27-CSS-irc
15:52:15 [plinss]
zakim, this will be style
15:52:15 [Zakim]
ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
15:52:25 [plinss]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:54:23 [bradk]
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15:57:02 [kojiishi]
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15:57:31 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:37 [oyvind]
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15:57:39 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
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15:58:06 [Zakim]
+plinss
15:58:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.920.aaaa
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+??P5
15:58:25 [johnjan]
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15:58:29 [kojiishi]
zakim, ++P5 is me
15:58:29 [Zakim]
sorry, kojiishi, I do not recognize a party named '++P5'
15:58:39 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??P5 is me
15:58:39 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
15:58:59 [arron]
I'll be about 5 minutes late calling in.
15:59:03 [johnjan]
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15:59:19 [johnjan]
zakim, microsoft is johnjan
15:59:19 [Zakim]
+johnjan; got it
15:59:46 [bradk]
doh. Too busy reading to dial the phone...
16:00:27 [dethbakin]
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16:00:35 [plinss]
zakim, aaaa is fantasai
16:00:36 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:01:24 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.275.aabb
16:01:40 [bradk]
Zakim, aabb is me
16:01:44 [Zakim]
+dethbakin
16:01:48 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
16:01:49 [alexmog]
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16:03:21 [Zakim]
+smfr
16:03:37 [Zakim]
+Bert
16:03:43 [Zakim]
+??P18
16:03:49 [Zakim]
+arronei
16:04:15 [alexmog]
zakim, ??P18 has me
16:04:15 [Zakim]
+alexmog; got it
16:04:25 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:05:22 [sylvaing]
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16:05:23 [Zakim]
+ +47.21.65.aacc
16:05:47 [plinss]
zakim, aacc is howcome
16:05:48 [Zakim]
+howcome; got it
16:05:55 [TabAtkins]
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16:06:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.281.305.aadd
16:06:15 [TabAtkins]
zakim, aadd is me
16:06:15 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
16:06:25 [sylvaing]
scribenick: sylvaing
16:07:00 [sylvaing]
plinss: any other agenda items ?
16:07:07 [sylvaing]
howcome: yes, I'd like to talk about multicol
16:07:26 [sylvaing]
topic: CSS2.1 test suite
16:07:34 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I published a build last night
16:07:45 [dbaron]
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16:07:57 [sylvaing]
fantasai: we need a release note detailing changes
16:08:04 [bradk]
Zakim, who is breathing like darth vader?
16:08:04 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, bradk.
16:08:15 [smfr]
bradk: ;)
16:08:31 [Zakim]
+David_Baron
16:08:36 [sylvaing]
arronei: I didn't have time to finish all the testcases. I changed 700 files from feedback. remaining changes are about 30 files.
16:08:51 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
16:09:03 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I haven't gone through all feedback so I'm not sure how much is left. but everything is on the mailing list
16:09:13 [sylvaing]
fantasai: so this latest update is just a snapshot
16:10:35 [sylvaing]
arronei: also we should start planning on locking/stabilitizing the test suite about a month before PR i.e. no more functional changes, only small editorial updates
16:11:12 [sylvaing]
fantasai: if a test is wrong we should update it though
16:12:06 [sylvaing]
arronei: we'll have to agree on which tests get fixed vs. handled in the next release of the test suite
16:12:24 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I think it'd be harmful to have erroneous testcases in the suite
16:12:48 [sylvaing]
arronei: we might be able to remove them; we'll have to evaluate by then. I don't expect this to be a frequent problem.
16:13:21 [sylvaing]
plinss: I'd actually like to lock down functional changes earlier if possible
16:13:34 [sylvaing]
arronei: sooner is better. Middle of November ?
16:13:42 [dbaron]
(I think some of the discussion above also discussed what tests should be there for the version of the test suite used to qualify the spec, not what tests should/shouldn't be there forever.)
16:13:53 [sylvaing]
fantasai: first we need to go through all the feedback on the mailing list
16:14:11 [sylvaing]
plinss: what is your ETA to go through the feedback ?
16:14:43 [sylvaing]
fantasai/arronei: unsure
16:15:17 [sylvaing]
plinss: we need to stop adding test or making major changes so the sooner we can lock down on functional changes the better
16:15:32 [sylvaing]
plinss: mid-november is aggressive given TPAC
16:15:38 [sylvaing]
arronei: let's target that
16:16:15 [sylvaing]
ChrisL: the sooner the better. yes we need to process the feedback and fix updates. but we could keep doing this for a long time.
16:16:23 [krijnh]
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16:16:41 [sylvaing]
plinss: yes we're getting to the point where we'd remove erroneous testcases unless they absolutely have to be fixed
16:17:16 [howcome]
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16:17:26 [sylvaing]
Topic: CSS2.1 issues
16:17:30 [plinss]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-101
16:17:46 [dsinger_]
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16:18:10 [sylvaing]
Bert: my opinion is the same. we shouldn't change the spec. this is implemented incorrectly
16:18:26 [sylvaing]
TabAtkins: it's implemented incorrectly the same by everyone
16:18:27 [Zakim]
-arronei
16:19:29 [sylvaing]
TabAtkins: the change is a matter of making the model described in the spec match reality
16:20:42 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
16:20:55 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft.a is me
16:20:55 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:24:17 [sylvaing]
dbaron: the change I had made that caused regressions was anologous to these rules but not directly related to them
16:24:39 [sylvaing]
johnjan: IE9 now passes these testcases so we should investigate the actual compat impact first
16:25:05 [sylvaing]
johnjan: I'd rather assert a regression tail before changing the spec
16:25:35 [sylvaing]
(johnjan will try to get compat data to discuss at TPAC)
16:25:41 [dbaron]
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472252 was the bug I had the next day when I broke one of these cases
16:25:53 [sylvaing]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-154
16:26:27 [sylvaing]
arronei: I haven't had time to update these.
16:26:41 [sylvaing]
arronei: the prose edits have already improved clarity substantially
16:26:54 [sylvaing]
plinss,ChrisL: not worth waiting for then. Resolved.
16:27:00 [sylvaing]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-159
16:27:29 [sylvaing]
Bert: I like the text; it's clearer than the current version
16:28:23 [sylvaing]
Bert: I have suggested minor improvements; box and elements are often mentioned in the same sentence without distinguishing them. The things that adjoin are boxes, the things that are siblings are the elements
16:28:57 [sylvaing]
(Bert discusses the wording described in his review)
16:29:31 [sylvaing]
Bert's comments: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Oct/0819.html
16:30:46 [Bert]
-> http://www.w3.org/mid/201010271802.31842.bert@w3.org my review of 159
16:31:24 [dbaron]
I suggested making "adjoining" not transitive in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0507.html
16:32:13 [dbaron]
but it's technically ok either way; just a matter of how we define the terms
16:33:27 [sylvaing]
(discussion of adjoining margin definition that the scribe cannot keep up with)
16:35:53 [Zakim]
-bradk
16:38:40 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I like Bert's suggested changes; but I think the way the terms adjoining and collapse are currently defined is fine
16:42:32 [dethbakin]
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16:43:04 [fantasai]
> | A collapsed margin is considered adjoining to another margin if
16:43:04 [fantasai]
> | any of its component margins is adjoining to that margin.
16:43:11 [fantasai]
ACTION fantasai: write example to clarify this
16:43:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-270 - Write example to clarify this [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-11-03].
16:43:30 [sylvaing]
ACTION: fantasai to write a spec example to clarify that a collapsed margin is considered adjoining to another maring if any of its component margin is adjoining to that margin
16:43:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-271 - Write a spec example to clarify that a collapsed margin is considered adjoining to another maring if any of its component margin is adjoining to that margin [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-11-03].
16:43:39 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 159 with Bert's "no padding or margin areas" change and "drop 'vertical'" changes
16:43:46 [fantasai]
fantasai to write example
16:43:53 [sylvaing]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-199
16:44:24 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:44:38 [Zakim]
-arronei
16:44:39 [sylvaing]
my phone dropped the call
16:44:44 [sylvaing]
scribe relay !
16:45:19 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:45:34 [fantasai]
I would suggest s/auto position/static position/
16:46:02 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
16:46:08 [fantasai]
And replace "the top of the box in the vertical direction, and the same position horizontally that" with "the same as"
16:46:11 [sylvaing]
RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 199
16:46:19 [fantasai]
Since it's zero-height, it doesn't matter.
16:47:14 [sylvaing]
(Bert and Tab discuss the change's exact insertion point in the spec)
16:47:27 [dbaron]
Issue 199 is changing text in 9.4.2
16:48:22 [sylvaing]
Topic: agenda items for TPAC
16:48:31 [sylvaing]
plinss: please email your items, review the wiki and update as necessary
16:49:22 [sylvaing]
plinss: let's try to work out Sunday night dinner plans over email
16:49:48 [fantasai]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/issues-lc-2010
16:49:59 [sylvaing]
topic: publishing CSS3 Backgrounds & Borders CR
16:50:24 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I don't see anything blocking publishing
16:51:20 [sylvaing]
ChrisL: transition call to exit LC won't happen this week or next but we can get the process started
16:52:36 [sylvaing]
RESOLVED: publish CSS3 Backgrounds & Borders CR
16:52:52 [sylvaing]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-120
16:53:24 [sylvaing]
Bert: this is the large rewrite that updates containing block definitions
16:53:50 [sylvaing]
Bert: I noted that it unintentionally no longer makes tables containing blocks and we need to fix that
16:54:56 [sylvaing]
Bert: changes are in the editor's draft, 9.2.1.
16:57:46 [sylvaing]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-142
16:58:01 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:59:24 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0443.html
17:01:00 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Oct/0044.html
17:01:42 [Bert]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Oct/0042.html
17:02:33 [Zakim]
-David_Baron
17:02:33 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
17:02:34 [Zakim]
-smfr
17:02:36 [Zakim]
-howcome
17:02:37 [Zakim]
-johnjan
17:02:40 [Zakim]
-plinss
17:02:44 [Zakim]
-Bert
17:02:46 [Zakim]
-dethbakin
17:02:48 [Zakim]
-fantasai
17:02:50 [Zakim]
-kojiishi
17:02:52 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
17:03:11 [dethbakin]
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17:07:25 [Zakim]
-??P18
17:07:52 [Zakim]
-TabAtkins
17:07:54 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:07:56 [Zakim]
Attendees were plinss, +1.415.920.aaaa, kojiishi, johnjan, fantasai, +1.650.275.aabb, dethbakin, bradk, smfr, Bert, arronei, alexmog, [Microsoft], +47.21.65.aacc, howcome,
17:07:58 [Zakim]
... +1.281.305.aadd, TabAtkins, David_Baron, ChrisL
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