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15:52:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/27-CSS-irc
15:52:15 <plinss> zakim, this will be style
15:52:15 <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
15:52:25 <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
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15:57:31 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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15:57:39 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:57:49 <arron> arron has joined #css
15:58:06 <Zakim> +plinss
15:58:16 <Zakim> + +1.415.920.aaaa
15:58:21 <Zakim> +??P5
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15:58:29 <kojiishi> zakim, ++P5 is me
15:58:29 <Zakim> sorry, kojiishi, I do not recognize a party named '++P5'
15:58:39 <kojiishi> zakim, ??P5 is me
15:58:39 <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
15:58:59 <arron> I'll be about 5 minutes late calling in. 
15:59:03 <johnjan> johnjan has joined #css
15:59:19 <johnjan> zakim, microsoft is johnjan
15:59:19 <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
15:59:46 <bradk> doh. Too busy reading to dial the phone...
16:00:27 <dethbakin> dethbakin has joined #css
16:00:35 <plinss> zakim, aaaa is fantasai
16:00:36 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:01:24 <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aabb
16:01:40 <bradk> Zakim, aabb is me
16:01:44 <Zakim> +dethbakin
16:01:48 <Zakim> +bradk; got it
16:01:49 <alexmog> alexmog has joined #css
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16:03:21 <Zakim> +smfr
16:03:37 <Zakim> +Bert
16:03:43 <Zakim> +??P18
16:03:49 <Zakim> +arronei
16:04:15 <alexmog> zakim, ??P18 has me
16:04:15 <Zakim> +alexmog; got it
16:04:25 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:05:22 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
16:05:23 <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aacc
16:05:47 <plinss> zakim, aacc is howcome
16:05:48 <Zakim> +howcome; got it
16:05:55 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins has joined #css
16:06:10 <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aadd
16:06:15 <TabAtkins> zakim, aadd is me
16:06:15 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
16:06:25 <sylvaing> scribenick: sylvaing
16:07:00 <sylvaing> plinss: any other agenda items ?
16:07:07 <sylvaing> howcome: yes, I'd like to talk about multicol
16:07:26 <sylvaing> topic: CSS2.1 test suite
16:07:34 <sylvaing> fantasai: I published a build last night
16:07:45 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
16:07:57 <sylvaing> fantasai: we need a release note detailing changes
16:08:04 <bradk> Zakim, who is breathing like darth vader?
16:08:04 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, bradk.
16:08:15 <smfr> bradk: ;)
16:08:31 <Zakim> +David_Baron
16:08:36 <sylvaing> arronei: I didn't have time to finish all the testcases. I changed 700 files from feedback. remaining changes are about 30 files. 
16:08:51 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:09:03 <sylvaing> fantasai: I haven't gone through all feedback so I'm not sure how much is left. but everything is on the mailing list
16:09:13 <sylvaing> fantasai: so this latest update is just a snapshot
16:10:35 <sylvaing> arronei: also we should start planning on locking/stabilitizing the test suite about a month before PR i.e. no more functional changes, only small editorial updates
16:11:12 <sylvaing> fantasai: if a test is wrong we should update it though
16:12:06 <sylvaing> arronei: we'll have to agree on which tests get fixed vs. handled in the next release of the test suite
16:12:24 <sylvaing> fantasai: I think it'd be harmful to have erroneous testcases in the suite
16:12:48 <sylvaing> arronei: we might be able to remove them; we'll have to evaluate by then. I don't expect this to be a frequent problem.
16:13:21 <sylvaing> plinss: I'd actually like to lock down functional changes earlier if possible
16:13:34 <sylvaing> arronei: sooner is better. Middle of November ?
16:13:42 <dbaron> (I think some of the discussion above also discussed what tests should be there for the version of the test suite used to qualify the spec, not what tests should/shouldn't be there forever.)
16:13:53 <sylvaing> fantasai: first we need to go through all the feedback on the mailing list
16:14:11 <sylvaing> plinss: what is your ETA to go through the feedback ?
16:14:43 <sylvaing> fantasai/arronei: unsure
16:15:17 <sylvaing> plinss: we need to stop adding test or making major changes so the sooner we can lock down on functional changes the better
16:15:32 <sylvaing> plinss: mid-november is aggressive given TPAC
16:15:38 <sylvaing> arronei: let's target that
16:16:15 <sylvaing> ChrisL: the sooner the better. yes we need to process the feedback and fix updates. but we could keep doing this for a long time.
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16:16:41 <sylvaing> plinss: yes we're getting to the point where we'd remove erroneous testcases unless they absolutely have to be fixed
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16:17:26 <sylvaing> Topic: CSS2.1 issues
16:17:30 <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-101
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16:18:10 <sylvaing> Bert: my opinion is the same. we shouldn't change the spec. this is implemented incorrectly
16:18:26 <sylvaing> TabAtkins: it's implemented incorrectly the same by everyone
16:18:27 <Zakim> -arronei
16:19:29 <sylvaing> TabAtkins: the change is a matter of making the model described in the spec match reality
16:20:42 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:20:55 <arronei> zakim, microsoft.a is me
16:20:55 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:24:17 <sylvaing> dbaron: the change I had made that caused regressions was anologous to these rules but not directly related to them
16:24:39 <sylvaing> johnjan: IE9 now passes these testcases so we should investigate the actual compat impact first
16:25:05 <sylvaing> johnjan: I'd rather assert a regression tail before changing the spec
16:25:35 <sylvaing> (johnjan will try to get compat data to discuss at TPAC)
16:25:41 <dbaron> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472252 was the bug I had the next day when I broke one of these cases
16:25:53 <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-154
16:26:27 <sylvaing> arronei: I haven't had time to update these.
16:26:41 <sylvaing> arronei: the prose edits have already improved clarity substantially
16:26:54 <sylvaing> plinss,ChrisL: not worth waiting for then. Resolved.
16:27:00 <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-159
16:27:29 <sylvaing> Bert: I like the text; it's clearer than the current version
16:28:23 <sylvaing> Bert: I have suggested minor improvements; box and elements are often mentioned in the same sentence without distinguishing them. The things that adjoin are boxes, the things that are siblings are the elements
16:28:57 <sylvaing> (Bert discusses the wording described in his review)
16:29:31 <sylvaing> Bert's comments: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Oct/0819.html
16:30:46 <Bert> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/201010271802.31842.bert@w3.org my review of 159
16:31:24 <dbaron> I suggested making "adjoining" not transitive in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0507.html
16:32:13 <dbaron> but it's technically ok either way; just a matter of how we define the terms
16:33:27 <sylvaing> (discussion of adjoining margin definition that the scribe cannot keep up with)
16:35:53 <Zakim> -bradk
16:38:40 <sylvaing> fantasai: I like Bert's suggested changes; but I think the way the terms adjoining and collapse are currently defined is fine
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16:43:04 <fantasai> >   | A collapsed margin is considered adjoining to another margin if
16:43:04 <fantasai> >   | any of its component margins is adjoining to that margin.
16:43:11 <fantasai> ACTION fantasai: write example to clarify this
16:43:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-270 - Write example to clarify this [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-11-03].
16:43:30 <sylvaing> ACTION: fantasai to write a spec example to clarify that a collapsed margin is considered adjoining to another maring if any of its component margin is adjoining to that margin
16:43:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-271 - Write a spec example to clarify that a collapsed margin is considered adjoining to another maring if any of its component margin is adjoining to that margin [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-11-03].
16:43:39 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 159 with Bert's "no padding or margin areas" change and "drop 'vertical'" changes
16:43:46 <fantasai> fantasai to write example
16:43:53 <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-199
16:44:24 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:44:38 <Zakim> -arronei
16:44:39 <sylvaing> my phone dropped the call
16:44:44 <sylvaing> scribe relay !
16:45:19 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:45:34 <fantasai> I would suggest s/auto position/static position/
16:46:02 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:46:08 <fantasai> And replace "the top of the box in the vertical direction, and the same position horizontally that" with "the same as"
16:46:11 <sylvaing> RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 199
16:46:19 <fantasai> Since it's zero-height, it doesn't matter.
16:47:14 <sylvaing> (Bert and Tab discuss the change's exact insertion point in the spec)
16:47:27 <dbaron> Issue 199 is changing text in 9.4.2
16:48:22 <sylvaing> Topic: agenda items for TPAC
16:48:31 <sylvaing> plinss: please email your items, review the wiki and update as necessary
16:49:22 <sylvaing> plinss: let's try to work out Sunday night dinner plans over email
16:49:48 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/issues-lc-2010
16:49:59 <sylvaing> topic: publishing CSS3 Backgrounds & Borders CR
16:50:24 <sylvaing> fantasai: I don't see anything blocking publishing
16:51:20 <sylvaing> ChrisL: transition call to exit LC won't happen this week or next but we can get the process started
16:52:36 <sylvaing> RESOLVED: publish CSS3 Backgrounds & Borders CR
16:52:52 <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-120
16:53:24 <sylvaing> Bert: this is the large rewrite that updates containing block definitions
16:53:50 <sylvaing> Bert: I noted that it unintentionally no longer makes tables containing blocks and we need to fix that
16:54:56 <sylvaing> Bert: changes are in the editor's draft, 9.2.1.
16:57:46 <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-142
16:58:01 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:59:24 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0443.html
17:01:00 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Oct/0044.html
17:01:42 <Bert> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Oct/0042.html
17:02:33 <Zakim> -David_Baron
17:02:33 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:02:34 <Zakim> -smfr
17:02:36 <Zakim> -howcome
17:02:37 <Zakim> -johnjan
17:02:40 <Zakim> -plinss
17:02:44 <Zakim> -Bert
17:02:46 <Zakim> -dethbakin
17:02:48 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:02:50 <Zakim> -kojiishi
17:02:52 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
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17:07:25 <Zakim> -??P18
17:07:52 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:07:54 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:07:56 <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, +1.415.920.aaaa, kojiishi, johnjan, fantasai, +1.650.275.aabb, dethbakin, bradk, smfr, Bert, arronei, alexmog, [Microsoft], +47.21.65.aacc, howcome,
17:07:58 <Zakim> ... +1.281.305.aadd, TabAtkins, David_Baron, ChrisL
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