07:20:11 RRSAgent has joined #mlw 07:20:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-irc 07:20:24 meeting: Multilingual Web Workshop 07:20:28 chair: Richard 07:20:34 scribe: various 07:20:45 agenda: http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/madrid/program 07:23:53 present: many people 07:23:59 topic: welcome 07:28:02 welcome address from UPM 07:30:55 introduction to the workshop by Richard Ishida (W3C) 07:31:52 Jirka has joined #mlw 07:33:33 Richard introduces the "Multilingual Web" project - aims, goais 07:34:31 project homepage http://www.multilingualweb.eu/ 07:37:37 topic: Talk from Kimmo Rossi 07:39:31 Jirka has joined #mlw 07:40:15 kimmo: I am project officer of this project. Lot of enthusiasm of participants - a dream team of coverage of different areas 07:40:23 Jirka_ has joined #mlw 07:40:41 .. so project can really make a difference for the multilingual web 07:40:58 Jirka_ has left #mlw 07:41:28 Jirka__ has joined #mlw 07:42:15 .. this project is about much more than standardization 07:43:09 Jirka has joined #mlw 07:43:14 .. EC has made a commitement on the "digital agenda" in Europe 07:43:40 .. how communication technology can help to solve European / global challenges 07:44:45 .. trying to boost innovation and faster uptake of research results by the industry 07:45:11 .. 8th framework program now "research and innovation" as focus 07:45:47 joerg has joined #mlw 07:45:53 .. we need good input to discussions about 8th framework program. Nobody knows how the Web will look in 10 years 07:47:15 .. so we want to make use of the opinions of the stakeholders - people like you 07:47:51 .. scribing sessions is a very important job. Scribes should help us to get conclusions & recommendations to process outcomes of this event 07:49:31 .. my job is to sell money to people who have good ideas. I make an attempt to convince them to work in / on European projects 07:49:45 .. 50 mill. Euros for projects in Language Technology available 07:50:14 .. areas: multilngual content processing, including Machine Translation, chain of authoring / managing multilingual online content 07:50:40 s/multilingual/one is multilingual/ 07:50:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html fsasaki 07:51:12 .. another area: on multilingual information access & mining 07:51:48 .. and third area: natural speech interaction 07:52:10 .. call I just described is ongoing, we are taking submissions now 07:52:33 .. a future call for 1st Feburary 2011: SME initiative for digital content and languages 07:53:05 .. focused on SME, but consortia can encompass also large companies & research institutes. At least 2 SMEs need to be involved 07:53:54 .. data sharing & pooling 07:56:33 .. mlw project is about standards. Can we address standards in upcoming calls? 07:56:50 .. yes, we can. But rather than having a project developing standards, put standards in action 07:57:02 .. build something useful around the standard 07:57:22 .. thank you for your time, enjoy the workshop! 07:57:31 paaln has joined #mlw 07:57:32 topic: keynote from Reinhard Schäler 07:59:55 "The Multilingual Web, Policy Making and Access to Digital Knowledge for All" 08:04:54 reinhard: we made a survey on mlw - see current state of results at http://tinyurl.com/3xgfydl 08:05:47 .. standards and commercial interested are sometimes in a difficult relation 08:08:53 .. there are about 800.000 standards around 08:10:23 .. getting a standard through requires political cleverness, friends, power to push against strong interests 08:10:57 .. standards in localization: Encoding (Unicode), Quality (e.g. LISA Q/A), data exchange (XLIFF, TMX), Metrics 08:12:06 .. Unicode was successful since industry players came together and just did it, also giving up their own existing work on encoding 08:13:15 .. people are not so much interest in standards, but by what they can make with them 08:14:10 .. expectations and reality are often different things - e.g. sometimes people say they support XLIFF, but they "just" can read / import / export XML files 08:17:51 .. comparison to a bus stop - do you want to be in a standardized environment with the bus on time, or in an environment with the bus being delayed and you have time to talk to your friends? 08:18:59 .. standards means making compromises. You don't want to wait for a committee, you just do it 08:19:11 .. also you don't want to cooperate with your competitors 08:22:25 .. data exchange and process management are important too 08:22:50 .. you always want to keep an advantage compared to your competitors 08:23:10 .. where are we? 19 billion $ industry 08:23:26 .. but highly fragmented. Some (2,3,4) dominant players 08:24:34 .. short term ROI oriented 08:25:01 .. localization industry was established in the 80ies since companies want to sell products in many regions / countries 08:25:58 .. LOC people don't look ahead long term, because of short term ROI 08:26:06 .. so who can drive mlw? 08:26:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html fsasaki 08:28:18 .. we made a survey, see results link here http://tinyurl.com/3xgfydl 08:29:03 .. many people want to have the multilingual web - so why isn't it happening? 08:30:38 .. localization for all is now in focus: 08:31:02 .. more people / languages / content, user drive / own / manage the content 08:31:13 .. networks become standards based & interoperable 08:31:48 .. that is happening in the non L10N world - why couldn't it happen also in the localization world? 08:31:58 .. companies have to give up illusion of control 08:33:06 .. focus has to be on impelementations and benefits for the people 08:33:20 .. there is a fundamental right: access to information 08:33:35 .. that does not need to be judged by business case 08:35:06 .. drivers for this change: maybe not large cooperations, but nonprofit sector 08:35:26 .. nonprofit translation is the world largest translation movement 08:35:44 .. motivation is to make the world a better place 08:36:55 .. a forum to achieve that: Intetnet governance forum (IGF) 08:37:01 .. UN's IGF working group 08:39:44 .. standards, access to technology, and skill are important 08:42:44 .. as we can see in the "Close Encounters Of The Third Kind" clip 08:43:37 .. if aliens could talk, we would not understand them but we could try to develop technologies to achieve that 08:44:59 break 08:55:50 E_N has joined #mlw 09:10:43 Jirka has joined #mlw 09:10:54 scribe: Jirka 09:11:10 topic: Developers session 09:12:11 chaired by Adriane Rinsche 09:13:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html Jirka 09:19:40 xxx_ has joined #mlw 09:19:58 fsasaki has joined #mlw 09:20:48 Adriane: announcements 09:21:06 ... Mark Davis (Google) will videocast tommorŕow at 16:30 09:21:52 topic: The Multilingual Web: Latest developments at the W3C/IETF 09:22:05 chaals has joined #mlw 09:22:06 by Richard Ishida (W3C) 09:22:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:22:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html chaals 09:23:02 Richard: introduces W3C 09:23:31 s/scribe:various/scribe: Felix/ 09:23:35 ... 22 activities, 50 working groups and more 09:23:45 s/scribe: various/scribe: Felix/ 09:24:03 i/scribe: Felix/scribenick: fsasaki/ 09:24:14 ... internationalization activity is part of W3C work 09:24:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:24:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html chaals 09:24:40 ... standards supporting multilingual web are 09:25:21 ... Unicode, W3C technology is built on top of Unicode 09:25:30 scribenick: Jirka 09:25:50 ... 70% of web pages are using Unicode encodings 09:26:56 ... some mistakes solved recently, XML 5ed extends characters for identifiers 09:27:41 ... Unicode normalization, W3C proposed to use NFC form 09:28:52 ... work on allowing national characters in resource identifiers -- IDN (International Domain Names) 09:29:40 ... in June IANA started to release internationalized top-level domain names 09:30:16 ... IRI allows to internationalized path part of resource identifier 09:31:02 ... language tags, 8000 subtags, described in BCP47 09:32:15 ... Speech Synthesis Markup Language 09:32:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html Jirka 09:33:25 ... CSS3 adds more internationalization support 09:35:22 ... browser implementers have to support all details in different langauges 09:36:11 ... browser developers need to have reason to implement support for i18n features 09:36:34 ... they need to hear from users that i18n features are critical 09:37:12 ... vertical text is needed in Japan, Korea, Thailand, China; covered by CSS3 module 09:38:31 ... there are problems with mixing various script 09:38:52 ... Ruby annotation 09:39:11 ... there is CSS3 Ruby module 09:39:44 ... HTML5 has implemented Ruby but differently then other specs, need for convergence 09:40:10 [HTML5 tried to copy IE's implementation to be interoperable with existing usage (which is why it is different from the original spec)] 09:40:18 ... plans to support complex Ruby 09:41:21 [/me is excited about the requirements for layout, because it has motivated groups in a number of other languages to do the same] 09:41:23 ... Requirements for Japanese Layout are used as an input to several specs, including XSL-FO, HTML, CSS 09:41:59 .. Web Fonts - ability to use custom fonts in web pages 09:42:12 s/.. /... / 09:42:51 ... there are still subsetting and licensing issues 09:43:52 ... HTML5 - language identification, ability to specify dates in standardized way [using uF approach] 09:44:12 ... HTML5 new input types for forms 09:44:42 ... issues with bidirectional markup 09:45:56 ... there are additional requirements related to ordering and alignment of text 09:46:34 ... MathML 3.0 supports arabic math typesetting 09:46:49 ... ITS -- there will be separate talk by Christian 09:47:02 ... The rise of Mobile Web 09:47:27 ... MW4D 09:48:05 ... Best practices developed by W3C 09:48:17 ... there are also tests 09:48:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html Jirka 09:49:37 http://www.w3.org/International -> W3C Internationalisation Activity (lots of useful links and things) 09:51:00 ... I18N Checker http://qa-dev.w3.org/i18n-checker/ 09:51:34 ... there is also MobileOK checker 09:51:53 ... Web is about people, not about technology 09:52:15 ... we need you to make Web worldwide 09:52:47 topic: Localizing the web from the Mozilla perspective 09:53:01 by Axel Hecht (Mozilla) 09:53:27 s/the web/the Web/ 09:54:27 Axel: Firefox 4 will change User-Agent header, no more locale info here, use Accept-Language instead 09:54:42 ... 80+ localizations 09:54:56 ... community driven 09:56:00 ... it is challange to make work everything on all platforms 09:56:17 ... negotiating content language 09:56:39 ... balance between best content and user privacy 09:57:37 ... problems in Javascript, eg. Date.toLocaleString() is not truly i18n 09:58:36 ... bettwe APIs -- for BP47, site-specific Accept-Langauge 09:59:20 Axel: web sites at Mozilla 09:59:28 ... mostly static content 10:00:00 ... locale dependant content 10:00:32 ... data-driven sites, not easy 10:00:59 ... live multi-lingual documents, like documentation, knowledge base, ... 10:01:41 ... how to differentiate about added translation or bug-fix in a content that should be propagated to pages in other languages 10:02:02 ... international feedback button 10:04:06 ... several existing Wiki system used, noone really sufficient 10:04:12 ... developing own Kitsune system 10:05:19 ... question: what functionality is missing in the browsers (in general or in Firefox)? 10:05:39 ... question: localizing HTML5 content on the client 10:05:59 ... question: managing live multilingual docs 10:06:20 question from auditorium about handling speech 10:06:51 Axel: I'm not working in speech area 10:07:49 topic: The Web everywhere, multilingualism at Opera 10:08:02 by Charles McCathieNevile (Opera) 10:08:43 Chaals: Opera was created especially to support non-English web 10:09:08 ... Opera supports all kind of devices 10:09:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html Jirka 10:09:47 Chaals: some key markets: 10:10:07 ... Japanese -- how to make it work on mobile phones 10:10:24 ... Russian 10:10:38 ... Vietnamese -- multiple diacritics over one character 10:10:48 ... India, Iran -- phones 10:11:04 ... technology/standards used 10:11:22 ... originaly used UTF-16, good for CJK efficiency 10:11:45 ... UTF-8 is better for real world 10:11:55 ... using getttext PO files for software 10:12:07 ... content for l10n is handled in XLIFF 10:12:57 ... translation of Opera Desktop by agencies and volunteers (for minor languages) 10:13:27 ... Opera Mini translated only by agencies; 100+ langauges, because space constraints 10:13:43 ... Widgets and extensions are translated by developers 10:14:58 ... My.Opera content translated by community 10:15:05 ... issues: 10:15:18 ... XLIFF more complicated then Opera needs 10:15:58 ... translators tools -- we use open-source tools and some inhouse stuff 10:16:37 ... different translation agencies use different software, so it is hard to change agencies 10:17:01 ... word-breaking dictionaries are getiing large 10:17:23 ... problem for embeded devices (TV, game consoles, ...) 10:18:20 ... layout (RTL, vertical), scary part of browser code, very expensive to run 10:18:39 ... without clear message from users there is no interest in touching this complex code 10:18:50 ... people issues: 10:19:30 ... people don't understand how translation works 10:20:12 ... now everything is translated from English 10:20:52 ... we are trying to use multiple source languages to cater translators 10:21:18 ... it is harder to maintain quality of such translations, but you can have larger translator community 10:22:14 presentation suddenly ends with alarm sound 10:22:36 topic: Bridging languages, cultures, and technology 10:22:55 by Jan Nelson (Microsoft), Peter Constable (Microsoft) 10:23:50 s/expensive to run/expensive to change/ 10:24:51 a/complex code/, so the fact that communities have started being clear about a need for this and writing documents on what is required is important 10:25:33 s/are trying/have tried/ 10:26:13 [My presentation had got to the end exactly when the alarm sounded! I thought that was perfect timing :P ] 10:26:18 Jan: MS does a lot of translation, l18n and globalization 10:26:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 10:26:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html chaals 10:26:37 ... Microsoft research working on Microsoft Translate service 10:27:15 ... WikiBhasha -- browser-based multilingual content creator for Wikipedia 10:27:38 ... http://www.wikibhasha.org 10:28:51 ... open-source tool, currently supporting 35 languages 10:29:49 ... Microsoft Local Language Program 10:31:12 Peter: about enabling mlw web 10:31:23 ... IE is localized in 95 langauges 10:32:16 i/welcome address from UPM/scribenick: fsasaki 10:32:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 10:32:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html chaals 10:32:55 s/presentation suddenly ends with alarm sound/ 10:33:39 Peter: pages in UTF-8 are growing (over 50% of content) 10:34:00 s/[My presentation had got to the end exactly when the alarm sounded! I thought that was perfect timing :P ]// 10:34:14 ... HTML/CSS is ready for multlingual web 10:34:48 ... issues in separation of content and application code 10:35:16 ... client-server interaction issues -- handling prefered language when travelling, ... 10:36:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html Jirka 10:38:42 Peter: show some examples of rendering various scripts on HTML page and on HTML5 canvas 10:39:08 Questions 10:39:49 Question for Alex: Why you have changed several Wiki implementations? Was it because poor localization support. 10:40:42 Alex: content developers want visual editing (no wiki codes). For another wikis I don't know. 10:42:11 Question from Christian Lieske (SAP): There are some issues in handling i18n content by Webkit based applications. Is this caused by core (webkit) or applications? 10:42:44 Alex: there are several rendering engines, no representative from project using webkit is here 10:44:25 Chaals: If there is no functionality in rendering engine, it simply doesn't work and webdevelopers has to find workarounds. Parties has to work together to implement the most demanded features. 10:45:35 Question from David (BBC World Service): Who is responsible for rendering complex scripts -- browser engine or underlying operating systems? 10:46:37 Peter: In Windows we serve more then browsers, so we have this functionality in OS. Some browsers use Windows functionality, some depend on their own rendering engine. 10:47:49 Chaals: some devices don't have any such support, we have this in browser engine to support various devices 10:49:10 Alex: It depends on the platform. 10:49:40 ... you have to have good fonts for scripts/languages. This is not easy for minor languages 10:51:01 ... the problem is that developes of rendering engine don't have knowledge of foreign languages 10:52:03 Question from Jörg Schultz (BioLoom): There are two groups working on HTML5 -- WHATWG and W3C HTML WG. How this will evolve? 10:52:20 Chaals: HTML5 spec will be produced by W3C. 10:53:01 ... WHATWG is very informal and open place for developers playing with possible HTML5 features. 10:53:30 ... some features from WHATWG were removed from W3C HTML5 10:56:43 Question from Felix Sasaki: Do you see need for common way marking up what should/should not be translated? 10:57:20 Chaals: It is not matter of browser, browser doesn't do translation. 10:58:00 Richard: Google supports it, Hixie (editor of HTML5) dismissed this feature proposed by Microsoft [not sure if I scribed it correctly] 10:58:22 s/Google/Google translation/ 10:58:56 Alex: if we are going to support localization directly in browser, we will consider supporting it 10:59:20 Peter: this is not relevant for browser, but for upstream process when content is created and translated 10:59:29 s/doesn't do translation./doesn't do translation. You can use XHTML and add that right now, and it will not be a problem/ 11:00:03 s/proposed by Microsoft [not sure if I scribed it correctly]/proposed by Microsoft for inclusion in HTML5/ 11:01:22 Closing question, where MLW is going in the next couple of years? 11:01:55 Richard: [missed this] 11:02:25 s/Richard: [missed this]// 11:03:17 Richard: There are a huge number of things to work on... 11:03:41 Chaals: A lot of things deserve better support, eg. vertical text 11:04:08 Jan: work together with local governments on support of more languages 11:04:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html Jirka 12:06:16 fsasaki has joined #mlw 12:06:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html fsasaki 12:06:36 chaals has joined #mlw 12:07:49 scribe: fsasaki 12:08:42 topic: creators session introduction 12:09:03 chaals: session about making content 12:09:07 chaals introduces the speakers 12:09:46 topic: Challenges for a multilingual news provider: pursuing best practices and standards for BBC World Service 12:10:01 talk by Roberto Belo Rovella, David Vella 12:10:48 roberto: in charge of bbc world services 12:11:07 .. our focus now on online platforms 12:12:56 .. we are multilingual site, but each site has its own editors, i.e. not direct translation 12:14:17 .. recently re-released news site in 32 sites, with new fonts and Unicode support 12:15:48 s/news site in 32 sites/news site in Burmese/ 12:16:09 Roberto gives over examples for Chinese market 12:17:07 later uszbek site 12:17:13 s/later// 12:17:42 [chinese: produced in simplified chinese, can be auto-converted to traditional] 12:18:17 [Uzbek site: Uzbekistan is moving from writing in cyrillic to using the same language in latin. Plus arabic] 12:18:55 roberto: lot'f of other markets, e.g. Brazil 12:19:06 .. 5% of the BBC traffic 12:20:29 .. we have to package content (javascript, XML, CSS, ....) in some cases to deliver it properly 12:21:18 .. past: challenges for multilinguality: creating fonts / input methods "from scratch" 12:22:28 .. operating systems get better, so this has become much easier 12:23:12 .. BBC was one of the first content providers to publish in Unicode 12:23:51 .. was a hard challenge. Some websites offered content as GIFs 12:24:03 .. people said "why don't you use a font we are already using?" 12:24:26 .. at the end we prevailed, Unicode successed. But we lost a lot of the market 12:25:59 .. in some languages we had to use English. Urdu now works on the local script 12:26:35 .. new look for Arabic website, with new fonts 12:27:03 .. publication depends also on other parts of the website, like a localized video player 12:27:44 .. there are still web sites offering images instead of fonts, but solutions are coming 12:28:09 .. currently on a mobile displaying hindi, a user sees only boxes 12:28:38 .. iOS 4 is close to the correct rendering 12:29:00 .. reading with that display is very hard 12:29:23 .. 70% of devices in India cannot display the Hindi text properly 12:29:49 .. we created an image based solution, in addition to the text based one 12:30:07 .. we publish both, and have links from the images to the text on the paragraph level 12:30:34 .. so we ignored the (W3C) advice of not using images for character display 12:30:54 .. we will not replace the text based version in the CMS 12:31:09 .. images display on every device, we control the rendering 12:31:32 .. we used Pango text rendering library 12:31:44 .. average page size is 45 KB, text only is 20 KB 12:32:02 .. launched Aug 2010, Hindi mobile traffic up by 50% 12:32:12 .. this is only temporary 12:32:29 .. Nokia and Samsung, they only localize the UI, so the situation is not changing 12:33:04 .. new mobile phones use their own software, no standard solution 12:33:25 .. not standards based, but they have 30% market share in India, we can't ignore them 12:34:11 s/new mobile phones/white-label or cheap brand lookalike/ 12:35:05 .. collaboration with Google. Users see only messages in their own language, but real time translation in / from other languages 12:35:34 .. size of areas on a page is changing depending on the languages involved 12:36:13 s/from other languages/from other languages. Results were interesting (but not always coherent...)/ 12:36:27 roberto: wishful thinking: create once, publish everywhere 12:36:51 .. encourage proper font rendering 12:37:58 .. offer language expertise to mobile manufactueres 12:38:07 .. rapidly deprecate support for older browsers 12:39:58 alex o conner (CNGL): have you thought of processing binary assets? 12:40:27 (scribe missed answer) 12:41:06 [The images are generated on publishing, and left as static. If you correct, you regenerate new images (not an expensive process, like printing) 12:41:47 topic: presentation from Loquendo 12:42:55 paolo: many people cannot read, in many circumstances you don't have written language 12:43:01 .. need to handle speech too 12:43:24 .. in the last 10 years W3C started a voice browser and multimodal working group 12:43:56 .. today quite a few parts of speech processing is controlled by standards 12:44:14 .. other important thing is the language subtag registry 12:44:53 .. example. small speech application asking "what do you want to drink" 12:45:22 .. recognition of speech means: you have to create grammars 12:45:30 .. even the grammar has xml:lang 12:45:39 ... you can also create a multilingual grammar 12:46:04 .. that uses language identifiers for defining and re-defining the language 12:46:39 .. tts means e.g. "reading a book" 12:46:51 .. richard mentioned SSML. We developed 1.0, later 1.1 12:47:12 .. Chinese people said that they need improvements 12:47:36 .. now (in 1.1.) there is a tag to specify the language also for pieces of texts 12:47:45 .. another point: you need to have a voice speaking 12:48:05 .. other application areas: dubbing or gaming 12:48:30 .. you can be more precise in SSML 1.1, e.g. for specifying the accent 12:49:35 (very nice :) ) demo of phonetic mapping to change spoken language 12:49:45 .. e.g. English spoken by Germans 12:50:07 .. another standard: PLS 1.0, a lexicon used to correct errors 12:50:18 .. for specific words, like locations, proper names 12:51:02 .. application for TTS or or speech recognition 12:51:30 .. BPC 47 did a lot of things, but there is a need to standardize phonetic alphabets more in detail 12:52:48 .. development tool - LoquendoTTs director editing tool 12:53:07 .. speech is another way of using the web 12:53:14 .. standards help to create speech applications 12:53:37 .. work by IANA / BCP 47 is good, but need to extend it for phonetic alphabets 12:54:08 peter_constable(Microsoft): your request about phonetic alphabets 12:54:22 .. there are subtags registered to denote that content is in IPA 12:54:47 .. or other phonetic alphabets 12:55:04 paolo: did not follow the discussion in detail 12:55:25 .. but idea was to have two registries, one for all subtags, one for phonetic alphabet only 12:55:51 topic: Experiences in creating multilingual web sites - talk by Luis Bellido 12:57:47 luis: multilingual search in catalogue 12:57:56 http://www.linguanet-europa.org/plus/welcome.htm -> lingu@net europa web site 12:57:58 .. currently restricted, search only on multilingual metadata 12:58:09 .. 32 different languages 12:59:16 .. people involved: language teaching professionals 12:59:29 .. no professional translators 12:59:41 .. have problems to get used to translation memory etc. 13:00:00 .. so we have to develop a process to create the site 13:00:25 .. we created our own solution, after looking into existing ones 13:00:56 .. relies on: utf-8, HTML, XML, CSS, MS-Office, Apache, Java Servlets, Tomacat, Lucene, Zope 13:01:02 .. po files 13:02:58 luis describes the workflow in detail 13:03:15 s/workflow/workflows/ 13:04:29 luis: now about "multilingual links" 13:04:40 .. we have same resources in different languages 13:04:49 .. but not all the languages are on the site 13:05:01 .. e.g. we have a link to "more information" 13:05:22 .. but we don't have let's say a Spanish version 13:05:33 .. in that case we give a box presenting the languages available 13:06:12 .. question is what to show to the user: the current language (of the user), the versions in other languages 13:06:33 .. we'd need a CMS supporting all these scenarios 13:06:41 .. that is for a whole site 13:08:23 .. initial prototype: using XSLT to generate multilingual links 13:08:46 .. not sure if that is something to standardize: how to present multilingual links 13:08:56 .. would be good to have a solution for that in CMS 13:09:21 topic: Pedro L. Díez Orzas, Giuseppe Deriard, Pablo Badía Mas - Key Aspects of Multilingual Web Content Life Cycles: Present and Future 13:09:34 presentation from linguaserve 13:10:26 pedro: for us multilingual content is content in motion 13:11:15 .me points out that people know Zara, until a native spanish speaker asks about it... 13:11:22 .. current state: multilingual web site 13:11:34 s/.me points out that people know Zara, until a native spanish speaker asks about it...// 13:12:03 s/web site/webservices/ 13:12:23 .. current model has problems, since there are more and more language to serve 13:12:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:12:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html chaals 13:12:54 .. using "translatability data type definition" (tDTD) 13:13:06 .. indicating which part to translate and what not 13:13:24 .. e.g. if you change a price, no need to translate that 13:13:34 Jirka has joined #mlw 13:13:35 .. attributes control if content has been translated or not 13:14:02 .. systems are sophisticated for multilingual publishing, but 13:14:12 .. multilingual content web life cycles: 13:14:18 .. we work with 7 different CMS 13:14:27 s/UNKNOWN_SPEAKER/David/ 13:14:41 .. they do not consider multilinguality in the content life cycle 13:15:02 .. so no real management for different language version 13:16:11 .. localization - three ways: 13:16:15 .. direct access to CMS 13:16:51 s/three/different/ 13:16:57 s/direct/online/ 13:17:03 .. or offline access 13:17:27 .. thrid way: automatic real-time machine translation 13:17:35 s/thrid/third/ 13:17:44 .. we want professional quality 13:18:23 .. disconnect between CMS; MT and language version allows for a reduction of implementation costs 13:18:28 .. now near future 13:18:35 .. "everything is hybrid" 13:18:54 .. in globalisation: combining different services 13:19:10 .. in localization: combining different production systems 13:19:33 .. like onlne and offline 13:20:00 .. combining several translation methodologies, like MT + professional post editing 13:21:40 .. good to use XHTML and good source content 13:21:56 .. summary: CMS has to take into account that multilingual content managment is important 13:22:05 .. all of them need to collaborate 13:22:56 christian_liekse(SAP): how addition of machine translation can help to reduce complexity 13:23:08 .. e.g. in content management 13:23:28 pedro: MT for translating critical content may be a problem 13:23:39 .. but for translating content that changes every two hours, MT is useful 13:23:47 .. develops also on the language pairs 13:23:58 .. we are working more on integration methodologies 13:24:21 .. using XML can be a part of the solution, real time HTML another one 13:24:27 .. how much each, depends on the client 13:25:12 topic: Max Froumentin World Wide Web Foundation - The Remaining Five Billion: Why is Most of The World's Population Not Online and What Mobile Phones Can Do About It 13:25:27 max: introducing the world wide web foundation 13:27:53 .. now: 75% of world population have access to the Web 13:28:27 .. 1.2 Billion people are able to use the internet 13:28:42 .. but we normally don't use messaging into account like SMS 13:28:56 .. SMS is the Web, same with Voice 13:29:19 .. e.g. if you call an interactive voice system 13:29:30 .. its another way to access the Web 13:29:39 .. messaging and voice are the WEb 13:30:01 .. Web as it was created was: a desktop PC, HTTP 13:30:11 .. now we have mobile browers 13:30:26 .. there is also HTTP, but also apps, widgets 13:30:36 .. the system still uses HTTP, goes to a URI 13:30:49 .. but the user does not see the URI 13:31:01 .. an SMS gateway uses that too 13:31:09 .. we claim that the Web is not only a browser 13:31:29 .. many people have access to e.g. SMS, even if they don't have a browser on the mobile phone 13:32:18 .. voice browser applications 13:32:37 .. consequences of this situation: SMS input / output problems 13:32:52 .. no documentation for SMS, no authoring tools 13:34:13 .. in voice: prompts ok, acceptance of dialog systems / NLP low 13:35:23 .. no content that is interesting enough to send an SMS 13:35:32 .. little knowledge about applications you can build with SMS 13:35:38 .. no knowledge about business models 13:36:24 .. Web for regreening alliance 13:36:34 .. big problems with farmers in Sahara region 13:36:51 .. one guy has invented a way to grow trees in the desert 13:37:08 .. there are thousands of other farmers who don't know about that 13:37:32 .. the guy who has the knowledge can't read, but he has a mobile phone 13:37:53 .. the foundation will help to build an application to record advice etc. 13:38:09 .. other farmers will be able to share their knowledge 13:38:22 .. via accesing the web by voice and SMS 13:38:55 .. another project: cgnet swara, in India 13:39:04 .. a voice application to do citizen journalism 13:39:10 .. there is no news in the local language 13:39:23 .. using the system participants record a story, calling a number 13:39:31 .. other people get that story via the web 13:39:40 .. people are willing to pay for the information 13:39:55 .. so people are able to make businesses out of this 13:40:38 topic: Q/A of creators session 13:41:16 jörg_schutz: you said that users hesitate to press a button, but you need that in your projects 13:41:22 .. what about acceptance? 13:41:41 max: if the people think that the system is useful, they use it 13:41:52 .. in Kenia they had an existing system for banking 13:42:19 .. they designed both an SMS based and a voice based system to access banking information 13:42:41 jörg: so its a learning process for everybody 13:42:56 thierry_declerk(DFKI: interesting to see so many news in many languages 13:43:08 .. it seems that it is more the broadcaster doing the publication 13:43:18 .. and not newspaper publishers 13:43:43 .. 2nd question: would you make your content available for e.g. language technology? 13:43:59 roberto: to 2nd question, would like to 13:44:13 .. but might sometimes not be able to do so, due to restrictions of contributors 13:45:37 thierry: in Germany there is a legislation now which forces broadcaster to take away content 13:45:42 roberto: not here 13:46:55 josef(CNGL): question for pedro 13:47:03 .. in a context for localization company 13:47:21 .. is something changing of business models with mobile web? 13:47:35 pedro: telephone companies are asking for solutions 13:47:46 .. problem is not only technical 13:48:08 .. problems of text / mobile phones are similar to the other web, maybe different with voice 13:48:24 paolo: there are problems with mobile, but no solution yet 13:48:48 pedro: training of systems, noise etc. makes it very hard to create general purpose applications 13:49:11 paolo: companies doing that were relying on humans, but that was no sustainable business model 13:49:28 .. we need to use machines, but solution is still a way ahead 13:49:44 natasha_brown(wiki-translate): BBC has a lot of teaching materials 13:49:51 .. copyright is about xyz years 13:50:15 .. can BBC afford to give up copyright, so that children can learn British English 13:50:19 s/xyz/70/ 13:50:56 roberto: cannot answer 13:51:15 axel(mozilla): our right-to-left community said 13:51:42 .. keep it left-to-right, since there is e.g. no video player which does right-to-left 13:51:54 .. so they would no be confused by having right-to-left 13:52:22 roberto: trying to do things 100% right is not always the solution 13:52:40 axel: please don't go for the multilingual links, they are awful 13:53:11 luis: not going for a specific solution, just trying to find solutions 13:53:23 axel: we use accept-language header, locale info etc. 13:53:30 chaals: what do you do if that does not work? 13:53:39 axel: file a bug in the browser 13:54:04 michael_staffanov(former-un): at w3c and various speakers 13:54:21 .. there should be something in HTML that let's us tag "this page is multilingual" 13:54:50 .. this is something more and more important as technologies like machine translation evolves 13:55:39 .. to BBC: "to be able to say 'this is the spanish version of the UK page'" is important 13:55:51 .. there should be a tag in HTML that says "there are other pages available 13:56:23 chaals: there is, you can use explicit tags which are machine interpretable for linking to other languages 13:57:22 pedro: no way to distinguish between pages that have been translated , and the ones in the original language 13:57:43 richard: there is a way to link to different language version, but not many browsers implement it 13:58:09 claudio(lionbridge): pedro mentioned real-time translation 13:58:36 .. when you talk about machine translation and "real time" translation, concept of "good enough" needs to be taken into account 13:58:44 pedro: "hybrid" is the answer 13:59:08 .. we can work with MT, including all kinds of processing (statistical, rules, ...) 13:59:20 .. we have to be realistic in front of our customers 13:59:32 .. merging different types of filters is important 14:00:06 .. we can memorize pages, combine MT with xyz, but not in every language 14:00:27 .. at the moment we have good results with the "filters" approach 14:00:37 .. with close enough languages we have good results 14:00:50 .. but with e.g. Spanish and English, it does not work so well 14:01:21 .. problem of MT is not a problem for language pairs, but for a given text 14:01:38 .. we resolve problem for text of a given client, not for any text 14:02:14 UNKNOWN-SPEAKER: how do you deal with interoperability between CMS? 14:02:28 pedro: have a web service (SOAP-based) 14:05:56 chaals closes the session 14:06:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html fsasaki 14:07:22 nicoletta has joined #mlw 14:20:15 me has joined #mlw 14:20:34 Roberto has joined #mlw 14:21:01 nobody else in the channel at the moment 14:21:27 sven_ has joined #mlw 14:21:45 here at the bottom you add text 14:21:53 and at the top t appears 14:22:03 coffee time 14:25:38 E_N has joined #mlw 14:29:01 scribe test 14:33:25 Christian Lieske on Best Practices and Stanadards for Improving Globalization-related Processes 14:37:03 Felix: Introducing and reminding delegates about cocktail reception 14:38:21 Christian: Intro re best practices and then moving to wish list 14:39:01 Jirka has joined #mlw 14:39:08 Christian: presentation is for those with little or lots of knowledge, not so informative for those with middle knowledge 14:39:16 fsasaki has joined #mlw 14:40:04 chaals has joined #mlw 14:41:08 Christian: core processes - how are they managed with best practices? Standards. 14:41:55 topic: Christian Lieske (SAP) on best practices and standards for improving globalization-related processes 14:42:27 Christian: many technological components to take into account 14:42:36 thank you! ;) 14:43:15 Christian: Does globalization really matter? Why does it matter? 14:43:15 content passes through a chain and there are a lot of things that help improve quality - translation memories, ... 14:43:26 Sven has joined #mlw 14:43:41 1/3rd of money that is involved usually goes to translators 14:43:47 therefore everything else can be overhead 14:44:10 there may be a problem with globalization processes? 14:44:39 we do not have simple processing chains, there are many of them, i.e software, docuementation, training 14:45:08 and there are many people involved...and they need to communicate together - we have to manager this with best practices and standards 14:45:22 s/manager/manage/ 14:45:39 basic best practices - when you start to do something please start with best 14:45:54 s/best practices 14:46:24 make sure that all metadata is able to travel with data that has to be globalized 14:46:34 s/1/... 1/ 14:46:34 thanks chaals 14:46:47 I was not aware of this 14:46:48 s/therefore everything/... therefore everything/ 14:47:12 s/there may be/... there may be/ 14:47:31 "good resources for best practices - w3c node - xml internationalization best practices" 14:47:33 s/we do not/... we do not/ 14:47:47 chaals you are an expert at this 14:48:46 "pseudo translation - enables you to find problems quickly - before begin translating - allows one to save time and money - and to prevent tension" 14:49:01 "best practice rule = get terminology in order! 14:49:03 " 14:49:26 s/"// 14:49:39 s/order!/order!"/ 14:50:10 "Christian - please take care of terminology and source content quality - to keep downstream processes clean and less troublesome" 14:50:37 "Christian - please automate these early processes to ensure consistency early on" 14:51:13 ... like this 14:51:19 thanks 14:51:23 s/... like this// 14:52:02 TMX = Translation Memory Exhange (a standard for managing assets in translation 14:52:25 me/ chaals I suggest that you take over, I am afraid I will be producing poor quality notes 14:52:43 Sven2 has joined #mlw 14:52:54 but will take over. 14:52:57 Sven has left #mlw 14:53:08 thanks 14:54:02 "Christian machines and humans need the right type of informtion - to ensure consistency - an important standard is ITS 14:54:31 "Christian ITS very important for tagging" 14:54:53 "XLIFF helps to unify the world, allows to do away with all the myriad formats" 14:54:56 scribe: chaals 14:55:20 Christian: With XLIFF you don't need multiple filters, you just have one format. 14:55:34 ... The ITS is about describing resources. It is about explaining things 14:55:56 ... e.g. someone comes with content and says "make this in 3 languages" 14:56:24 ... and you ask "are there parts in there that shouldn't be translated because they are trademarks or software commands"? 14:56:36 ... ITS helps you to provide this sort of information. 14:56:49 scribe: Elliot 14:57:10 scribenick: E_N 14:57:26 scribe: E_N 14:57:49 lbellido has joined #mlw 14:57:53 Christian: virtues of standards enable easier data transfer between environments (saving time) 14:58:22 chaals has changed the topic to: Multilingual Web workshop. For help on IRC type /msg rrsagent help (chaals) 14:58:28 ... some people may disagree with standards, perhaps not applicable in real world 14:58:40 ... things are not as simple in the real world applications 14:58:53 ... world is much more complex 14:59:25 ... a reality check - the scope of standards are not adequate (either to large or complex) 14:59:47 ... also some standards may not be mature enough i.e some miss conformance clauses - 14:59:55 lbellido has joined #mlw 15:00:51 ... another issue as that there are not many implementations of standards and the completness of implementations are sub-optimal 15:01:13 ... they only implement a fraction of the standard (related to standards being too broad or large) 15:01:41 ... there can be data loss between transfer 15:01:59 reducing efficeincy 15:02:16 s/efficiency 15:02:36 ... there is still much scope for improvement 15:03:04 ... How are standards created? 15:03:11 ... by accident? 15:03:22 ... with grand pretensions? 15:03:44 ... what issues can these methods bring? 15:04:32 s/reducing efficeincy/... reducing efficiency/ 15:04:40 ... 5m safety system to avoid accidents - by liasing between teams and coordinating 15:05:21 ... the 5ms are a way to reduce issues during globalization life cycle 15:06:11 idx has joined #mlw 15:06:36 ... 5ms are essentially ensuring that people, processes and technology are able to communicate adequatley 15:06:51 ... for smooth globlization processes 15:07:06 Roberto has joined #mlw 15:07:53 Need cocktal now! 15:08:23 ... meta - work with standardized vocab - reduced subset (this reduces complexity and therefore issues related to data transfer between globalization workflow steps) 15:09:37 Josef van Genabith: Where are we going? 15:09:41 Topic: Next Generation Localisation 15:10:11 ... overview (next generation and future) 15:10:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html Jirka 15:10:42 ... starting with mega trends 15:10:51 Topic: what is localization? 15:11:44 ... it is the industrial process of adapting digital content to culture, locale and linguistic environment, but why? For ROI. 15:11:58 claudio has joined #mlw 15:12:24 ... core topics - volume (great magnitude of content and target languages) 15:12:50 ... also there is a shift from business content to user generated and social media 15:13:24 ... additionally the way people access data is evolving rapidly 15:14:01 ... people have much more in common than they did in the past 15:14:09 ... people are becoming globalized 15:14:17 r12a has joined #mlw 15:14:44 ... and therefore people are the ultimate locale - they are the specific person who we are creating content for 15:14:54 ... related to custom content and semantic web 15:15:26 ... but how can we balance these various factors? 15:17:57 ... example: localization often goes together with customer support - it has to be multilingual, this data shows that for every 10,000 that call there are an additional 100K who use the website to self server + an additional 300K using external forums (customers have direct access to peer groups, before contacting the customer support teams) 15:18:32 ... in fact, the customer support teams may even be the last to know about the fixes which are available in the online forums 15:18:45 labra has joined #mlw 15:19:13 felix ? 15:19:29 ... currently state of the art solutions are kluges of online/offline translation tools + mt + user generated content 15:19:59 ... many ways to skin a cat - lots of potential methods to reduce costs and improve processes 15:20:25 ... must use a holistic view 15:20:33 ... to ensure a mature approach 15:20:56 ... feedback between content generation and localization and content delivery 15:21:18 ... how it is delivered is related to how it should be created and translted. 15:21:45 s/translated /translted 15:21:54 Josef: 15:22:21 s/and translted/and translated/ 15:22:27 ... there is much to do, but we can all play a part 15:22:42 ... this work is not just in the scope of large business 15:22:58 lbellido has joined #mlw 15:23:34 Marko Grobelnik: 15:24:00 Topic: Cross-lingual information retrieval 15:24:03 ? 15:24:36 s/Cross-lingual information retrieval/Cross-lingual document similarity for Wikipedia languages/ 15:25:02 scribe: E_N 15:25:32 Marko: examples of cross-lingual information retrieval on Reuters RCV 2 news corpus 15:26:05 ... where does this info relate to text related research fields? 15:26:24 ... there are many fields, what is the difference between the areas? 15:27:19 ... main difference is that each areas represent text in different ways, one doc can be seen as a sequence of characters - as we increase structure we see lexical patterns expanding and context recognition becoming obvious 15:28:12 ... essentially from simple to complex and the ideal solutions for large scale cross-lingual IR? 15:29:50 ...uses of this = language neutrality relies on statistical methods 15:30:37 ... this method enables the clear representation of languages and allows for further user analysis on data 15:31:35 ... using these stat techniques we can map documents into document neutral representations 15:32:18 ... in summary - this technique provides for a way to analyse cross-lingual data 15:32:48 Topic: Q&A 15:33:13 ... are there any results from cross-ling? 15:33:22 s/.../Richard/ 15:33:24 ... yes, but fuzzy results 15:33:33 ... many problems and challenges 15:33:35 s/Richard /Richard: / 15:33:46 s/... yes/Christian: yes/ 15:33:48 scribe suggests that delegates do further research 15:34:43 Q: How does this relate to DBPedia? 15:35:03 Q: What features does this use? 15:35:40 A: words and phrases are only feature 15:36:14 Felix: Introducing new speaker, please fill out feedback forms! 15:36:19 i/Q: What features/A: DBPedia addresses different use cases, so it has some conceptual similarities but is different 15:36:41 ... new speaker is Daniel Grasmick 15:36:59 Daniel: delighted to be here for the first time, 15:37:12 ... presentation will be less technical, pragmatic and candid 15:37:31 ... from Lucy software, a young company combining language and technology 15:38:11 ... three pillars SAP app translation, MT, Standards 15:38:36 ... Daniel started as a translator, then worked in MT 15:38:44 ... used to sell MT all around the world 15:38:56 ... Daniel has noticed how industry has chnged 15:39:12 ... worked with SAP for years before Lucy Software 15:39:32 ... been involved with defining LISA standards including TMX 15:39:40 ... TBX 15:39:55 ... Evolution of TMX - 15:40:08 ... from open tag to TMX 15:40:27 ... finding a unified standard for translated segments 15:40:42 for simple data transfer between or within a business 15:41:03 ... provides freedom to choose, non propriatory 15:41:07 ... from TMX 15:41:15 they felt the needed SRX 15:41:26 FYI - all of these are part of OAXAL 15:41:45 Open Architecture for XML authoring and localization 15:42:01 scribe recommends looking up OAXAL 15:42:34 Daniel: LISA has suffered from a lack of volunteers 15:42:51 ... but standards are a must (rhetorical) 15:42:54 are they? 15:43:33 ... sometimes there are too many flavors 15:43:48 ... reduced subsets 15:44:02 ...minimal meta data for easiest exchange 15:45:09 ... XLIFF is far more practical than EXCEL 15:45:27 ... Excel should really not be a source format (if at all possible) 15:46:22 Q&A: Why does SAP not directly support XLIFF? 15:46:40 Q: Why does SAP not directly support XLIFF? 15:47:13 A: Daniel - SAP text is stored in tables, hard to see potential win of transferring to XLIFF 15:47:25 ... ROI questions perhaps? 15:47:44 ... but solution will be developed at some point 15:47:53 ... future is bright! 15:48:39 Q: From Proff Reinhard - How do you get standards developed? Whose interested and why? 15:49:06 ... to delegates > how do you get them made? 15:50:08 ... Proff Reinhard continued highlighting plethora of inherint issues of developing standards 15:50:47 A: Christian Lieske - we make standards happen by networking activities (by developing understanding, the first step is knowing it is possible) 15:51:11 ... secondly (people want to get problems out of the way) 15:51:31 Daniel: to to develop standards one needs to be a idealist 15:52:31 A: Standards used to eliminate competition i.e RTF (well it was a non-standard, standard) 15:53:04 A: mix of needs pressures, avoiding opportunities 15:53:32 Charles: Are people prepared to use standards if they will make a profit? 15:53:41 specification 15:54:35 ... takes real work to develop a standard 15:54:47 ... cost 2million to create SVG 15:54:55 SVG 1.2 much cheaper 15:55:52 ... companies are there for their own interests. 15:56:37 ... in web, standards are very important 15:56:52 ... no benefits in not having standards 15:57:03 ... specifically on the web 15:57:44 ... Governments can spearhead standards i.e S1000D 15:57:58 XML 15:58:09 s/SVG 1.2 much cheaper/... SVG 1.2 was much more expensive/ 15:58:17 ... from SGML to XML 15:58:36 standardizing the language of standards 15:58:52 ... reducing the complexity to reduce the potential for error 15:59:16 s/no benefits in not/companies work on standards where there is no benefits in not/ 15:59:30 scribe: chaals 15:59:48 Comment: A big motivation is governments (especially military purchasing) 15:59:55 ... wanting not to be locke to a supplier 16:00:23 Paulo: Working in speech with standards is great - it means people can build a big market 16:00:52 ... Loquendo uses standards as a differentiating factor like Opera "trust us now because we are standards-based which means you're not locked into us" 16:01:35 Denis: Webkit question for developer panel. Given the same underlying objective for end users, are there specific reasons not to use webkit? 16:02:12 ... webkit doesnt do things we want it to do, had 3rd rate svg support 16:02:25 ... but great CSS support 16:03:05 ... retooling engineers one must show a clear benefit - Opera assesment of webkit (some people it works for, some it doesnt) 16:03:24 ... competition is a good thing 16:03:48 ... single standards reduce competition in some instances 16:03:57 ... especially in browser world 16:04:36 ... when market shifted there was competion. Having one core browser is not a smart way to go. 16:04:44 ... competition is important 16:04:55 ... people can choose to implement as they see fit 16:05:00 ... everyone to their own 16:05:16 ... to suit their own software ecology 16:05:29 ... and needs of internal and external users 16:06:25 .... customers dont want to rely on webkit (it could be show to be unsatisfactory in the future) 16:06:58 ... suppliers disappear ( the future is unknown) 16:07:08 s/to rely on/to be forced to rely on/ 16:07:46 Alex: Mozilla thinks it is important to have difference and choice, as a core value. 16:08:03 ... And in fact there are a lot of different branched Webkits out there. 16:08:23 my pleasure, it was fun in a paint balling kind of way ;) 16:08:32 ... It isn't a browser, it is a core rendering engine. A key part of a browser, but just one part. 16:08:58 ... We gladly took other components, because they fit in well. 16:09:53 Josef: To go back to the point from this morning, about whether there should be a tag that identifies things that have been translated. 16:10:24 ... there are multiple stakeholders that should be involved (e.g. in that case it didn't matter to the browser makers, but did matter to other stakeholder) 16:10:56 ... There are now a lot of spiders using the web for machine learning to improve translation systems. 16:11:27 ... would be interesting to identify content that has been machine-translated, so spiders can exclude that from learning because they assume it isn't that good... 16:12:11 PeterC: The browsers aren't impacted by the tag for things that were translated, so aren't the right people to be defining it. 16:13:17 ??: We all have cellphones and PDAs. Power plugs aren't standardised, and there has been a lot of talk. But imagine if they had been standardised a decade ago? We would have huge horrible things. Standardisation can hold back innovation as well, so you have to be aware of the cost as well as the benefit. 16:13:56 i/PeterC/FS: Note the the European Commission is here... and intersted in fostering innovation 16:14:09 Christian: Please come to the cocktail reception and keep talking. 16:14:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:14:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html chaals 16:14:41 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 16:17:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-mlw-minutes.html fsasaki 16:18:10 Sven2 has joined #mlw