IRC log of fx on 2010-10-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:00:01 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #fx
20:00:01 [RRSAgent]
logging to
20:00:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
20:00:03 [Zakim]
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20:00:05 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3983
20:00:05 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start now
20:00:06 [trackbot]
Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
20:00:06 [trackbot]
Date: 25 October 2010
20:00:09 [heycam]
Zakim, code?
20:00:09 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), heycam
20:00:48 [smfr]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
20:00:48 [Zakim]
GA_FXTF()4:00PM has not yet started, smfr
20:00:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, adrianba, smfr, pdengler, ed, heycam, plinss_, ed_work, shepazu, plinss, TabAtkins_, trackbot
20:02:22 [TabAtkins_]
Oh wait, 2pm
20:03:05 [ed]
present: heycam, smfr, anthony, ed, pdengler, plinss
20:03:09 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: ? it's now!
20:03:17 [TabAtkins_]
Dang timezone math!
20:03:38 [anthony_work]
anthony_work has joined #fx
20:03:48 [ed]
20:04:27 [anthony]
anthony has joined #fx
20:05:55 [ed]
Zakim, who's here?
20:05:55 [Zakim]
GA_FXTF()4:00PM has not yet started, ed
20:05:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see anthony, anthony_work, Zakim, RRSAgent, adrianba, smfr, pdengler, ed, heycam, plinss_, ed_work, shepazu, plinss, TabAtkins_, trackbot
20:07:39 [ed]
present+ TabAtkins_
20:08:28 [pdengler]
scribeNick: pdengler
20:08:47 [pdengler]
topic:TPC Meeting
20:08:54 [adrianba]
present+ adrianba
20:09:07 [ed]
20:09:09 [pdengler]
ed: Chris was noting Thursday afternoon was bets for both WG
20:09:43 [pdengler]
smfr: I won't be able to meet at TPAC but I would like to call in
20:10:10 [pdengler]
pdengler: meta question: who from CSS is in this task force?
20:10:18 [pdengler]
TabAtkins: simon and tab
20:10:25 [ChrisL]
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20:10:34 [ChrisL]
zakim, code?
20:10:34 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), ChrisL
20:10:44 [pdengler]
pdengler: I talked to Sylvain who had said he hand't heard anything from CSS SVG Task force
20:11:01 [pdengler]
TabAtkins_: We should do more to communicate back to the CSS task foce
20:11:18 [pdengler]
ed: How do we communicate back?
20:11:39 [pdengler]
smfr: communicate back to the CSS working group
20:11:43 [pdengler]
ed: sounds like a good idea
20:12:10 [pdengler]
pdengler: I looked at the latest version and it looked as though we were getting back to the CSS team
20:12:25 [ed]
s/communicate back to the CSS working group/communicate back to the CSS working group via actions/
20:12:43 [pdengler]
shepazu: Why do we have two
20:12:53 [ed]
present+ CL
20:12:57 [pdengler]
ChrisL: Thought we decided to move this to the CVS of the task force and merge them
20:13:01 [pdengler]
shepazu: That was my impression as well
20:13:12 [pdengler]
ChrisL: Does that mean that the CSS has continued to evolve?
20:13:24 [pdengler]
smfr: There have been some minor changes to the 2d trasnforms spec
20:13:33 [pdengler]
smfr: The 3d spec hasn't been worked on recenlty
20:15:05 [pdengler]
ChrisL: There needs to be one spec for both SVG and CSS
20:15:29 [pdengler]
ChrisL: Both have been working on similar concepts in the past, but there should only be one of these
20:15:42 [pdengler]
anthony: That was my impression as well which is why we added simon and dean
20:15:53 [pdengler]
ed: This is the view of the CSS working group as well?
20:16:25 [pdengler]
smfr: Make sure that the CSS working group includes this in the list of CSS working gruop is invovled in
20:16:41 [pdengler]
ChrisL: There is a list of CSS specs. We should update the link to the one we are working on
20:16:52 [smfr]
the FX spec would need to be linked from here:
20:16:58 [shepazu]
agenda+ transforms getCoordsAt() method
20:17:04 [pdengler]
pdengler: I just need to make sure the CSS working group in on the same page
20:17:27 [pdengler]
pdengler: Will that apply to filters?
20:17:34 [pdengler]
TabAtkins_: Yes
20:17:42 [adrianba]
q+ to ask about where the Rec will be published
20:17:54 [ChrisL]
20:17:57 [pdengler]
ed: I do have an existing action on the task force to commit the SVG Filters spec and how to deal with CSS box moels and such
20:18:23 [pdengler]
adrianba: If specification moves into a joint CVS repository, where does the recommendation get published?
20:18:30 [pdengler]
adrianba: From a patent policy is for both groups?
20:18:55 [heycam]
Zakim, who is making noise?
20:18:55 [Zakim]
sorry, heycam, I don't know what conference this is
20:19:04 [smfr]
hard to hear ChrisL
20:19:05 [pdengler]
ChrisL: The editors draft is published under both.It is covered under the same patent policy and this is allowed by W3C to form task force
20:19:47 [pdengler]
shepazu: To clarify, it will be a safe spec from the IP perspective
20:20:23 [pdengler]
ed: there is a filters spec for 2.0
20:20:23 [smfr]
minutes are fine
20:20:46 [adrianba]
20:20:49 [adrianba]
ack next
20:20:50 [Zakim]
adrianba, you wanted to ask about where the Rec will be published
20:21:36 [pdengler]
shepazu: CSS/SVG Transforms should include both
20:22:26 [pdengler]
ed: Are there specific topic at TPAC we want to discuss
20:23:03 [pdengler]
shepazu: Can we talk about transforms getCoordsAt first
20:24:31 [pdengler]
pdengler: I want to discuss whether or not the working groups can focus on a few areas that add a lot of value
20:24:52 [pdengler]
pdengler: e.g. Transforms (let's close?), transitions and animations (?) how do they apply to just transforms
20:24:55 [pdengler]
pdengler: and filters
20:26:48 [pdengler]
pdengler: What is a realistic timeline for a spec to get to last call
20:26:55 [pdengler]
shepazu: If it is agreed, it's just about work
20:27:20 [pdengler]
ChrisL: Safarai has an implementation that works in HTML
20:27:30 [pdengler]
smfr: only works with CSS
20:27:45 [pdengler]
ChrisL: do you see problems with applying it as a style for SVG
20:27:48 [pdengler]
smfr: Not really
20:28:07 [pdengler]
ChrisL: We then need 2 implemenation
20:28:28 [pdengler]
shepazu: if there is only one implemenation then there are chances that will be interop problems
20:28:47 [pdengler]
pdengler: but isn't this our position on writing test cases per assertion up front
20:29:02 [pdengler]
ed: very helpul
20:29:12 [pdengler]
shepazu: it's a matter of time and resources
20:29:38 [pdengler]
ChrisL: If we have more than one implementer interested in this, then we can move forward more quickly
20:31:35 [pdengler]
ChrisL: Look at current fx draft, and current in CSS and do a merge
20:31:47 [pdengler]
shepazu: We should merge those specs and get the point across that we have one spec
20:32:34 [pdengler]
action: smfr to coordinate back to CSS working group our method for delivering CSS-Transforms Specification as a singluar specification and fix up links
20:32:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-19 - Coordinate back to CSS working group our method for delivering CSS-Transforms Specification as a singluar specification and fix up links [on Simon Fraser - due 2010-11-01].
20:33:13 [pdengler]
Topic: Transforms and getCoordsAt
20:33:22 [shepazu]
20:33:27 [pdengler]
shepazu: We talked about this in the SVG workig group
20:33:30 [shepazu]
20:34:01 [pdengler]
shepazu: In getting mouse coords for a transformed object is a pain
20:34:14 [pdengler]
shepazu: We want to have a method that tranlates to the two coordinate spaces
20:34:40 [pdengler]
shepazu: This applies to CSS and SVG transforms
20:34:54 [pdengler]
shepazu: This was suggested as an add to DOML3 spec
20:35:07 [pdengler]
shepazu: But it was to add to CSS/SVG Trasnform specs
20:36:03 [pdengler]
shepazu: This would be on the element interface, not the mouse
20:36:43 [pdengler]
shepazu: getCoordsAt on mouseEvent is not the proposal, but rather on the elmenet interfaces
20:36:58 [pdengler]
smfr: We added a method on the Window interface called convert point to node.
20:37:07 [ed]
s/element interface, not the mouse/element interface, not the MouseEvent interface/
20:37:21 [pdengler]
shepazu: Having the two way translate is what is important
20:37:44 [pdengler]
smfr: Agree that this is needed
20:38:39 [pdengler]
smfr: In 2d Transforms in CSS land we have a 2d matrix; in terms of the task force whether or not it aligns with 3D matrix
20:38:53 [pdengler]
smfr: Similarlity we are going to end up with SVGPoint, and whether or not that works in CSS
20:39:10 [smfr]
Zakim, who's noisy?
20:39:10 [Zakim]
sorry, smfr, I don't know what conference this is
20:39:12 [pdengler]
smfr: We need to think about how other interfaces impact the Transforms interface
20:39:21 [heycam]
Zakim, this is FXTF
20:39:21 [Zakim]
ok, heycam; that matches GA_FXTF()4:00PM
20:39:24 [heycam]
Zakim, who is making noise?
20:39:28 [smfr]
Zakim, who's noisy?
20:39:35 [Zakim]
heycam, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (64%), ??P9 (14%)
20:39:46 [Zakim]
smfr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (27%)
20:40:20 [Zakim]
20:40:20 [pdengler]
shepazu: We need to look at the SVG Methods; let's get them right, maintaining backward compat, but steering toward new methods
20:40:23 [smfr]
20:40:40 [Zakim]
20:41:00 [pdengler]
shepazu: I agree that you probably don't want SVGPoint, we want to make it simple
20:41:10 [pdengler]
smfr: Perhaps webPoint webMatrix etc
20:41:19 [smfr]
20:41:19 [pdengler]
anthony: That's what I have been worried about
20:41:20 [smfr]
20:42:06 [pdengler]
shepazu: perhaps we could consider DOM
20:43:10 [pdengler]
shepazu: Bringing in resig and others to help might be a good idea
20:43:26 [pdengler]
shepazu: This is a process.
20:44:41 [pdengler]
action: smfr to create initial draft of unified interfaces including data types across SVG and CSS
20:44:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-20 - Create initial draft of unified interfaces including data types across SVG and CSS [on Simon Fraser - due 2010-11-01].
20:45:25 [pdengler]
anthony: If we have a list, I would like to go through them.
20:45:26 [smfr]
anthony: you sound like you're at the end of a long narrow pipe
20:46:59 [pdengler]
anthony: I'll start sending stuff in email to get a list going
20:47:01 [Zakim]
20:47:21 [pdengler]
shepazu: Might not be a bad idea to blog about this as well to make it more acessible
20:47:37 [pdengler]
shepazu: I will write a blog post about this sometime in November
20:47:55 [pdengler]
ed: I had an items for the transform spec
20:48:12 [heycam]
s/anthony: If we have/heycam: If we have/
20:48:13 [ed]
20:48:19 [pdengler]
ed: The transform property is noted as being applied to container elements and graphical elements
20:49:38 [pdengler]
action: anthony to update spec to read 'transform property applies to any SVG element that uses transform attribute'
20:49:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-21 - Update spec to read 'transform property applies to any SVG element that uses transform attribute' [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-11-01].
20:51:28 [pdengler]
20:53:00 [ed]
pdengler: there are no svg examples using style="transform: ..."
20:53:09 [ed]
ed: yeah, there should be some svg examples
20:53:33 [pdengler]
pdengler: CSS: div {transform: rotate(45deg);}
20:53:44 [pdengler]
CSS: rect {transform: rotate(45deg);}
20:54:32 [pdengler]
ed: Topic: Telecon times
20:54:42 [pdengler]
ed: Daylight savings time switch
20:55:08 [pdengler]
anthony: Does that mean that these will be an hour later?
20:55:43 [pdengler]
ed: Keep time as is for now
20:55:50 [smfr]
fine by me
20:56:03 [pdengler]
heycam: THis time is good for m
20:57:15 [pdengler]
Topic: What is the status of animations and transitions
20:57:56 [pdengler]
ed: Those modules are in CSS CVS correct
20:58:04 [pdengler]
smfr: They are there, they are both working draft.
20:58:11 [pdengler]
smfr: Transitions we have 3 implementations
20:58:19 [pdengler]
smfr: Animations we have one implementation
20:58:31 [pdengler]
pdengler: Do we think they belong in the task force
20:59:05 [pdengler]
pdengler: I think of CSS animations and transitions animating "stuff"
20:59:11 [pdengler]
smfr: The tricky part is if you do both
20:59:22 [shepazu]
20:59:32 [pdengler]
ChrisL: SMIL animation already has the concept of animating a attribute vs property
20:59:57 [pdengler]
pdengler: I think its a difficult proposition to have 2 animation engines colliding
21:00:23 [pdengler]
pdengler: I woudl preserve SMIL for SVG in XML and move fowrad with CSS transitions and animations for SVG in HTML5, and let those specs live in CSS
21:00:51 [shepazu]
21:01:32 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
21:01:32 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been [Microsoft], smfr, Shepazu, TabAtkins_, ChrisL
21:01:38 [Zakim]
21:01:39 [Zakim]
21:01:39 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:01:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
21:01:41 [Zakim]
21:01:43 [Zakim]
21:01:44 [Zakim]
21:01:45 [Zakim]
21:01:56 [Zakim]
21:02:01 [Zakim]
21:02:02 [Zakim]
GA_FXTF()4:00PM has ended
21:02:04 [Zakim]
Attendees were [Microsoft], smfr, Shepazu, TabAtkins_, ChrisL
21:10:01 [shepazu]
pdengler: you still there?
21:15:04 [smfr]
smfr has left #fx