20:00:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #fx
20:00:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/25-fx-irc
20:00:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
20:00:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #fx
20:00:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3983
20:00:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start now
20:00:06 <trackbot> Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
20:00:06 <trackbot> Date: 25 October 2010
20:00:09 <heycam> Zakim, code?
20:00:09 <Zakim> the conference code is 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), heycam
20:00:48 <smfr> Zakim, who is on the phone?
20:00:48 <Zakim> GA_FXTF()4:00PM has not yet started, smfr
20:00:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, adrianba, smfr, pdengler, ed, heycam, plinss_, ed_work, shepazu, plinss, TabAtkins_, trackbot
20:02:22 <TabAtkins_> Oh wait, 2pm
20:03:05 <ed> present: heycam, smfr, anthony, ed, pdengler, plinss
20:03:09 <smfr> TabAtkins_: ? it's now!
20:03:17 <TabAtkins_> Dang timezone math!
20:03:38 <anthony_work> anthony_work has joined #fx
20:03:48 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010OctDec/0016.html
20:04:27 <anthony> anthony has joined #fx
20:05:55 <ed> Zakim, who's here?
20:05:55 <Zakim> GA_FXTF()4:00PM has not yet started, ed
20:05:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see anthony, anthony_work, Zakim, RRSAgent, adrianba, smfr, pdengler, ed, heycam, plinss_, ed_work, shepazu, plinss, TabAtkins_, trackbot
20:07:39 <ed> present+ TabAtkins_
20:08:28 <pdengler> scribeNick: pdengler
20:08:47 <pdengler> topic:TPC Meeting
20:08:54 <adrianba> present+ adrianba
20:09:07 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010OctDec/0017.html
20:09:09 <pdengler> ed: Chris was noting Thursday afternoon was bets for both WG
20:09:43 <pdengler> smfr: I won't be able to meet at TPAC but I would like to call in
20:10:10 <pdengler> pdengler: meta question: who from CSS is in this task force?
20:10:18 <pdengler> TabAtkins: simon and tab
20:10:25 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #fx
20:10:34 <ChrisL> zakim, code?
20:10:34 <Zakim> the conference code is 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), ChrisL
20:10:44 <pdengler> pdengler: I talked to Sylvain who had said he hand't heard anything from CSS SVG Task force
20:11:01 <pdengler> TabAtkins_: We should do more to communicate back to the CSS task foce
20:11:18 <pdengler> ed: How do we communicate back?
20:11:39 <pdengler> smfr: communicate back to the CSS working group
20:11:43 <pdengler> ed: sounds like a good idea
20:12:10 <pdengler> pdengler: I looked at the latest version and it looked as though we were getting back to the CSS team
20:12:25 <ed> s/communicate back to the CSS working group/communicate back to the CSS working group via actions/
20:12:43 <pdengler> shepazu: Why do we have two
20:12:53 <ed> present+ CL
20:12:57 <pdengler> ChrisL: Thought we decided to move this to the CVS of the task force and merge them
20:13:01 <pdengler> shepazu: That was my impression as well
20:13:12 <pdengler> ChrisL: Does that mean that the CSS has continued to evolve?
20:13:24 <pdengler> smfr: There have been some minor changes to the 2d trasnforms spec
20:13:33 <pdengler> smfr: The 3d spec hasn't been worked on recenlty
20:15:05 <pdengler> ChrisL: There needs to be one spec for both SVG and CSS
20:15:29 <pdengler> ChrisL: Both have been working on similar concepts in the past, but there should only be one of these
20:15:42 <pdengler> anthony: That was my impression as well which is why we added simon and dean
20:15:53 <pdengler> ed: This is the view of the CSS working group as well?
20:16:25 <pdengler> smfr: Make sure that the CSS working group includes this in the list of CSS working gruop is invovled in
20:16:41 <pdengler> ChrisL: There is a list of CSS specs.  We should update the link to the one we are working on
20:16:52 <smfr> the FX spec would need to be linked from here: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work
20:16:58 <shepazu> agenda+ transforms getCoordsAt() method
20:17:04 <pdengler> pdengler: I just need to make sure the CSS working group in on the same page
20:17:27 <pdengler> pdengler: Will that apply to filters?
20:17:34 <pdengler> TabAtkins_: Yes
20:17:42 <adrianba> q+ to ask about where the Rec will be published
20:17:54 <ChrisL> q?
20:17:57 <pdengler> ed: I do have an existing action on the task force to commit the SVG Filters spec and how to deal with CSS box moels and such
20:18:23 <pdengler> adrianba: If specification moves into a joint CVS repository, where does the recommendation get published?
20:18:30 <pdengler> adrianba: From a patent policy is for both groups?
20:18:55 <heycam> Zakim, who is making noise?
20:18:55 <Zakim> sorry, heycam, I don't know what conference this is
20:19:04 <smfr> hard to hear ChrisL 
20:19:05 <pdengler> ChrisL: The editors draft is published under both.It is covered under the same patent policy and this is allowed by W3C to form task force
20:19:47 <pdengler> shepazu: To clarify, it will be a safe spec from the IP perspective
20:20:23 <pdengler> ed: there is a filters spec for 2.0
20:20:23 <smfr> minutes are fine
20:20:46 <adrianba> q?
20:20:49 <adrianba> ack next
20:20:50 <Zakim> adrianba, you wanted to ask about where the Rec will be published
20:21:36 <pdengler> shepazu: CSS/SVG Transforms should include both
20:22:26 <pdengler> ed: Are there specific topic at TPAC we want to discuss
20:23:03 <pdengler> shepazu: Can we talk about transforms getCoordsAt first
20:24:31 <pdengler> pdengler: I want to discuss whether or not the working groups can focus on a few areas that add a lot of value
20:24:52 <pdengler> pdengler: e.g. Transforms (let's close?), transitions and animations (?) how do they apply to just transforms
20:24:55 <pdengler> pdengler: and filters
20:26:48 <pdengler> pdengler: What is a realistic timeline for a spec to get to last call
20:26:55 <pdengler> shepazu: If it is agreed, it's just about work
20:27:20 <pdengler> ChrisL: Safarai has an implementation that works in HTML
20:27:30 <pdengler> smfr: only works with CSS
20:27:45 <pdengler> ChrisL: do you see problems with applying it as a style for SVG
20:27:48 <pdengler> smfr: Not really
20:28:07 <pdengler> ChrisL: We then need 2 implemenation
20:28:28 <pdengler> shepazu: if there is only one implemenation then there are chances that will be interop problems
20:28:47 <pdengler> pdengler: but isn't this our position on writing test cases per assertion up front
20:29:02 <pdengler> ed: very helpul
20:29:12 <pdengler> shepazu: it's a matter of time and resources
20:29:38 <pdengler> ChrisL: If we have more than one implementer interested in this, then we can move forward more quickly
20:31:35 <pdengler> ChrisL: Look at current fx draft, and current in CSS and do a merge
20:31:47 <pdengler> shepazu: We should merge those specs and get the point across that we have one spec
20:32:34 <pdengler> action: smfr to coordinate back to CSS working group our method for delivering CSS-Transforms Specification as a singluar specification and fix up links
20:32:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-19 - Coordinate back to CSS working group our method for delivering CSS-Transforms Specification as a singluar specification and fix up links [on Simon Fraser - due 2010-11-01].
20:33:13 <pdengler> Topic: Transforms and getCoordsAt
20:33:22 <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010OctDec/0013.html
20:33:27 <pdengler> shepazu: We talked about this in the SVG workig group
20:33:30 <shepazu> http://jwatt.org/svg/tmp/mouse-relative-positioning.svg
20:34:01 <pdengler> shepazu: In getting mouse coords for a transformed object is a pain
20:34:14 <pdengler> shepazu: We want to have a method that tranlates to the two coordinate spaces
20:34:40 <pdengler> shepazu: This applies to CSS and SVG transforms
20:34:54 <pdengler> shepazu: This was suggested as an add to DOML3 spec
20:35:07 <pdengler> shepazu: But it was to add to CSS/SVG Trasnform specs
20:36:03 <pdengler> shepazu: This would be on the element interface, not the mouse
20:36:43 <pdengler> shepazu: getCoordsAt on mouseEvent is not the proposal, but rather on the elmenet interfaces
20:36:58 <pdengler> smfr: We added a method on the Window interface called convert point to node.
20:37:07 <ed> s/element interface, not the mouse/element interface, not the MouseEvent interface/
20:37:21 <pdengler> shepazu: Having the two way translate is what is important
20:37:44 <pdengler> smfr: Agree that this is needed
20:38:39 <pdengler> smfr: In 2d Transforms in CSS land we have a 2d matrix; in terms of the task force whether or not it aligns with 3D matrix
20:38:53 <pdengler> smfr: Similarlity we are going to end up with SVGPoint, and whether or not that works in CSS
20:39:10 <smfr> Zakim, who's noisy?
20:39:10 <Zakim> sorry, smfr, I don't know what conference this is
20:39:12 <pdengler> smfr: We need to think about how other interfaces impact the Transforms interface
20:39:21 <heycam> Zakim, this is FXTF
20:39:21 <Zakim> ok, heycam; that matches GA_FXTF()4:00PM
20:39:24 <heycam> Zakim, who is making noise?
20:39:28 <smfr> Zakim, who's noisy?
20:39:35 <Zakim> heycam, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (64%), ??P9 (14%)
20:39:46 <Zakim> smfr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (27%)
20:40:20 <Zakim> -smfr
20:40:20 <pdengler> shepazu: We need to look at the SVG Methods; let's get them right, maintaining backward compat, but steering toward new methods
20:40:23 <smfr> oops
20:40:40 <Zakim> +smfr
20:41:00 <pdengler> shepazu: I agree that you probably don't want SVGPoint, we want to make it simple
20:41:10 <pdengler> smfr: Perhaps webPoint webMatrix etc
20:41:19 <smfr> FXPoint@
20:41:19 <pdengler> anthony: That's what I have been worried about
20:41:20 <smfr> !
20:42:06 <pdengler> shepazu: perhaps we could consider DOM
20:43:10 <pdengler> shepazu: Bringing in resig and others to help might be a good idea
20:43:26 <pdengler> shepazu: This is a process.
20:44:41 <pdengler> action: smfr to create initial draft of unified interfaces including data types across SVG and CSS
20:44:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-20 - Create initial draft of unified interfaces including data types across SVG and CSS [on Simon Fraser - due 2010-11-01].
20:45:25 <pdengler> anthony: If we have a list, I would like to go through them.
20:45:26 <smfr> anthony: you sound like you're at the end of a long narrow pipe
20:46:59 <pdengler> anthony: I'll start sending stuff in email to get a list going
20:47:01 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
20:47:21 <pdengler> shepazu: Might not be a bad idea to blog about this as well to make it more acessible
20:47:37 <pdengler> shepazu: I will write a blog post about this sometime in November
20:47:55 <pdengler> ed: I had an items for the transform spec
20:48:12 <heycam> s/anthony: If we have/heycam: If we have/
20:48:13 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010OctDec/0019.html
20:48:19 <pdengler> ed: The transform property is noted as being applied to container elements and graphical elements
20:49:38 <pdengler> action: anthony to update spec to read 'transform property applies to any SVG element that uses transform attribute'
20:49:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-21 - Update spec to read 'transform property applies to any SVG element that uses transform attribute' [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-11-01].
20:51:28 <pdengler> http://dev.w3.org/Graphics-FX/modules/2D-transforms/spec/2DTransforms.html
20:53:00 <ed> pdengler: there are no svg examples using style="transform: ..."
20:53:09 <ed> ed: yeah, there should be some svg examples
20:53:33 <pdengler> pdengler: CSS: div {transform: rotate(45deg);}
20:53:44 <pdengler> CSS: rect {transform: rotate(45deg);}
20:54:32 <pdengler> ed: Topic: Telecon times
20:54:42 <pdengler> ed: Daylight savings time switch
20:55:08 <pdengler> anthony: Does that mean that these will be an hour later?
20:55:43 <pdengler> ed: Keep time as is for now
20:55:50 <smfr> fine by me
20:56:03 <pdengler> heycam: THis time is good for m
20:57:15 <pdengler> Topic: What is the status of animations and transitions
20:57:56 <pdengler> ed: Those modules are in CSS CVS correct
20:58:04 <pdengler> smfr: They are there, they are both working draft.
20:58:11 <pdengler> smfr: Transitions we have 3 implementations
20:58:19 <pdengler> smfr: Animations we have one implementation
20:58:31 <pdengler> pdengler: Do we think they belong in the task force
20:59:05 <pdengler> pdengler: I think of CSS animations and transitions animating "stuff"
20:59:11 <pdengler> smfr: The tricky part is if you do both
20:59:22 <shepazu> q+
20:59:32 <pdengler> ChrisL: SMIL animation already has the concept of animating a attribute vs property
20:59:57 <pdengler> pdengler: I think its a difficult proposition to have 2 animation engines colliding
21:00:23 <pdengler> pdengler: I woudl preserve SMIL for SVG in XML and move fowrad with CSS transitions and animations for SVG in HTML5, and let those specs live in CSS
21:00:51 <shepazu> q-
21:01:32 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
21:01:32 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been [Microsoft], smfr, Shepazu, TabAtkins_, ChrisL
21:01:38 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:01:39 <Zakim> -smfr
21:01:39 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
21:01:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/25-fx-minutes.html ChrisL
21:01:41 <Zakim> -??P2
21:01:43 <Zakim> -??P3
21:01:44 <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
21:01:45 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:01:56 <Zakim> -??P9
21:02:01 <Zakim> -Shepazu
21:02:02 <Zakim> GA_FXTF()4:00PM has ended
21:02:04 <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], smfr, Shepazu, TabAtkins_, ChrisL
21:10:01 <shepazu> pdengler: you still there?
21:15:04 <smfr> smfr has left #fx