IRC log of lld on 2010-10-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:39:50 [RRSAgent]
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12:39:50 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-irc
12:40:28 [emma]
zakim, this will be lld
12:40:28 [Zakim]
ok, emma; I see INC_LLDXG(INC_LLDXG)8:30AM scheduled to start 10 minutes ago
12:41:43 [emma]
Meeting: LLD XG
12:42:51 [emma]
Chair: Tom, Antoine, Emmanuelle
12:43:47 [emma]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F_Pittsburgh
12:44:58 [emma]
rrsagent, please make record public
12:45:12 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
12:45:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html emma
12:50:26 [emma]
Present: Emmanuelle Bermes, Tom Baker, Antoine Isaac, Karen Coyle, Jeff Young, Ray Denenberg, Marcia Zeng, Michael Panzer
12:51:20 [emma]
Regrets: Jodi, Jonathan, Ross, Anette, Kim, Joachim, Andras, Asaf, Felix, Monica
12:51:28 [emma]
Regrets+: Bernard, Peter
12:59:51 [antoine]
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13:00:40 [emma]
Present+: Lars Svensson, Gordon Dunsire, Paul Walk,
13:01:00 [Zakim]
INC_LLDXG(INC_LLDXG)8:30AM has now started
13:01:07 [Zakim]
+??P0
13:01:24 [antoine]
zakim, ??P0 is me
13:01:24 [Zakim]
+antoine; got it
13:01:35 [LarsG]
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13:04:15 [emma]
Present+: Mark Van Assem, Kai Eckert, Alexander Haffner
13:06:20 [emma]
Present+: Ed Summers, Martin Malmsten
13:06:28 [TomB]
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13:07:45 [LarsG]
Scribe: Lars
13:07:55 [LarsG]
Introductions:
13:07:56 [emma]
Scribe: Lars
13:08:07 [emma]
scribenick: LarcG
13:08:16 [LarsG]
19 participants
13:08:21 [emma]
scribenick: LarsG
13:08:46 [LarsG]
three more people arrive, makes it 22
13:10:25 [emma]
Present+: Jon Phipps
13:11:00 [mona]
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13:11:15 [mona]
zakim, mona is kcoyle
13:11:15 [Zakim]
sorry, mona, I do not recognize a party named 'mona'
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13:11:35 [LarsG]
TomB: basic principles
13:12:42 [LarsG]
... it's not like a DC working group, guests are _not_ incouraged to participate unless they have something very specific to contribute. If necessary, guests please move to the back
13:14:15 [charper]
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13:14:40 [LarsG]
... WiFi is not free, and we have no sponsors. TomB payed himself, we will let the hat pass around
13:14:51 [LarsG]
... $300
13:15:01 [GordonD]
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13:15:47 [LarsG]
... agenda is tight, so let's go
13:15:57 [LarsG]
Topic 1: Use Case Discussion
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13:16:19 [LarsG]
... We received 42 UseCases (that's the meaning of it)
13:16:50 [jphipps]
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13:17:16 [LarsG]
emma: We try to group UseCases
13:18:01 [marma]
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13:18:02 [LarsG]
.. it's OK to twitter about the meeting. Hashtag is #lld
13:18:36 [LarsG]
.. UseCases at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCases
13:19:46 [LarsG]
kcoyle: There are guests who came for specific use cases. TomB will present those
13:22:33 [LarsG]
Preparation of use case descriptions. Distribution of PostIts. Presenters please write names of the use cases they present on them
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13:22:48 [LarsG]
TomB: presents 3 FAO use cases
13:22:58 [LarsG]
.. 1) Agrovoc
13:23:18 [emma]
rrsagent please draft minutes
13:23:39 [paulwalk]
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13:23:51 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
13:23:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html emma
13:24:31 [LarsG]
.. 1980 multilingual thesaurus, since 2000 an owl ontology, since 2009 SKOS
13:26:08 [LarsG]
.. 2) FAO authority control
13:27:14 [michaelp]
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13:28:24 [LarsG]
.. description at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_FAO_Authority_Description_Concept_Scheme
13:28:42 [LarsG]
.. 1) is at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_AGROVOC_Thesaurus
13:29:08 [LarsG]
.. 3) AGRIS. Description at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_AGRIS
13:32:50 [rayd]
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13:33:26 [LarsG]
emma: the tree UCs fit together since they are from the same organisation. For clustering purposes, it might be better to group them differently.
13:34:31 [LarsG]
kcoyle: One large piece of paper with the topic, and then move postIts with UC names around until we're satisfed
13:36:12 [LarsG]
one flipchart per UC area
13:37:23 [LarsG]
Antoine will consolicate all UC presentation slides into one presentation and upload it to the wiki
13:37:39 [LarsG]
.. all presenters pleas mail their slides to Antoine
13:37:46 [LarsG]
s/pleas/please
13:39:56 [LarsG]
Jeff Young: UC Authority Data Enrichment (http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Authority_Data_Enrichment)
13:40:40 [LarsG]
.. authority data used to collocate information, need to consolidate internationally
13:41:14 [LarsG]
.. goal: enrich authority data by linking in and out
13:41:39 [LarsG]
.. how can we remodel the LinkedData back into MARC
13:42:33 [LarsG]
.. how far can we re-use existing vocabularies and how much do we need to define ourselves
13:42:58 [LarsG]
Jeff Young: UC Open Library Data (http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Open_Library_Data)
13:43:49 [LarsG]
.. Open Library has much bibliographic information from different sources (people, Amazon). It's not in MARC but key-value pairs
13:44:28 [LarsG]
.. problems: forms of personal names not preserved, no subfield structure preserving structure of data
13:45:25 [LarsG]
.. concepts (subject authority data) is probably more user friendly and less librarianesque
13:45:45 [LarsG]
.. they use FRBRish structure
13:46:03 [LarsG]
.. one goal just to present the data as LinkedData and see if it's useful
13:49:06 [LarsG]
.. vocabularies used: owl, skos, foaf, frbr, rdvocab, dcterms
13:49:55 [LarsG]
TomB: if UCs don't have a list of used vocabularies, we should add that to the UC
13:50:41 [LarsG]
kcoyle: four cases with authority data
13:53:16 [LarsG]
.. 1) AuthorClaim (http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_AuthorClaim)
13:54:28 [LarsG]
.. goal: try to identify authors and encourage authors to use the same name form in future, so that authors can find themselves in the database
13:54:38 [LarsG]
.. vocabulary: mads
13:54:50 [michaelp]
METS, I believe
13:55:20 [LarsG]
3) VIAF (http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Virtual_International_Authority_File_(VIAF))
13:55:34 [michaelp]
s/mads/METS
13:57:15 [LarsG]
.. vocabularies viaf, owl, skos, foaf, frbr entities, frbr elements, dcterms
13:57:48 [edsu]
http://www.vivoweb.org/ would've been a nice use case to have in this area ...
13:57:53 [LarsG]
.. makes sense to cluster it with Jeff's UC
13:59:04 [LarsG]
.. i. e. UC Data Enrichment (http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Authority_Data_Enrichment)
13:59:44 [LarsG]
alex: UC DNB Linked Data (http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Linked_Data_Service_of_the_German_National_Library)
14:00:03 [LarsG]
.. Service in prototypical state
14:00:31 [LarsG]
.. topics: alignment (DBPedia, Wikipedia, VIAF)
14:01:31 [LarsG]
.. vocabularies: rda, foaf, relationship vocab, gnd (dnb internal),
14:02:42 [LarsG]
kcoyle: NEP: New economic paper is the same as author claim
14:02:52 [LarsG]
Thus we have 41 UCs
14:03:38 [LarsG]
emma: does GordonD want to cluster with Jeff (Open Library Data)
14:03:50 [LarsG]
GordonD: three different clusters
14:04:31 [LarsG]
.. 1) Language technology (http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Language_Technology)
14:05:14 [LarsG]
.. problem: different library communities use different terminology (access points=
14:05:53 [LarsG]
.. no real authority control for subjects
14:07:24 [LarsG]
.. differences include language (multilinguality), authority terminologies and notations, uncontrolled terminology (natural language)
14:08:10 [LarsG]
.. need: link terms from different languages (singular/plural etc). Translate user input into controlled terminology
14:08:32 [LarsG]
.. LinkedData allows term-by-term matching (if the vocabulary allows it...)
14:09:02 [LarsG]
.. also issue with compound vs simple terms (broader/narrower, part/whole)
14:09:35 [LarsG]
.. Translation architectures:
14:10:15 [LarsG]
.. * one2one: translate term in vocab1 to exactly one term in vocab2 (scalability issues)
14:11:45 [LarsG]
.. * Hub-spoke: One vocabulary as hub. Issue: What to chose as hub? Issue: semantic drift between spoke vocabularies
14:12:50 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:12:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html emma
14:13:33 [LarsG]
.. examples:
14:14:02 [LarsG]
.. * Vocabulary mapping framework (hub-spoke) http://cdlr.strath.ac.uk/VMF/
14:15:16 [LarsG]
.. * HILT (hub-spoke) using DDC as http://www.d-nb.de/eng/wir/projekte/macs.htm
14:16:21 [LarsG]
..* s/http:.../http://hilt.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/
14:16:56 [LarsG]
.. HILT experimented with multilinguality and it seemed to work
14:17:43 [LarsG]
.. * MACS (one2one) SWD, LCSH, Rameau, DDC http://www.d-nb.de/eng/wir/projekte/macs.htm
14:18:36 [LarsG]
.. 2) UC Library Address Data (http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Library_Address_Data)
14:19:12 [LarsG]
.. libraries to publish information about themselves as linked data to allow identification, perhaps including collection-level data
14:19:40 [LarsG]
emma; topic of morning session is to identify the clusters
14:19:51 [LarsG]
TomB: then analyse the clusters one by one
14:20:04 [LarsG]
.. we hear recurring themes
14:21:49 [LarsG]
Marcia to present on Vocabulary Merging (http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Vocabulary_Merging)
14:23:00 [LarsG]
marcia: if user find things in a local service or a tag cloud
14:23:22 [LarsG]
.. a vocabulary service to relate terms
14:24:00 [LarsG]
.. vocab merging service to work at the back end e. g. as a super structure
14:24:32 [LarsG]
.. sometimes actual merging, sometimes switching system
14:24:59 [LarsG]
.. mapping of user terms (synonyms) to vocabularies
14:26:28 [TomB]
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14:27:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html TomB
14:27:52 [LarsG]
.. presentation of different projects: HILT, MACS, OCLC terminology services
14:28:51 [LarsG]
.. UMLS metathesaurus (creating a superstructure) over 1mill concepts and 4.3 mill concept names
14:29:12 [LarsG]
.. there concepts have unique URIs
14:30:11 [LarsG]
antoine: who does what in this UC? What does the process look like?
14:31:38 [LarsG]
GordonD: It's about terminology services. Black box: Service takes a user term and maps that back to a particular terminology a catalogue/community uses. It's transparent to the user: They enter a term and get a bunch of terminology back they can use in specific services.
14:31:57 [LarsG]
marcia: It's much a silo
14:32:58 [LarsG]
GordonD: DDC and UDC do the same thing but don't talk to oneanother, but there's rapid progress
14:33:44 [LarsG]
.. do you need a terminology service layer to organise the LinkedOpenData
14:34:32 [LarsG]
.. good example of statistical mapping technique in the DDC/LCSH mappings from WorldCat
14:35:22 [LarsG]
michaelp: through consistent use of URIs we can get the whole cluster.
14:35:32 [edsu]
also nat'l diet library: http://id.ndl.go.jp/auth/ndlsh map their subject terms to lcsh now as linked data / skos
14:35:42 [LarsG]
emma: interesting discussion, but we're pushing the break
14:35:55 [LarsG]
.. postpone discussion
14:36:04 [LarsG]
Break, 1/2 hour
14:37:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html LarsG
15:03:15 [charper]
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15:07:56 [michaelp]
Scribe: MichaelP
15:08:12 [michaelp]
Gordon: UC Library Address Daata
15:08:14 [emma]
Scribenick: michaelp
15:08:23 [michaelp]
s/Daata/Data
15:09:12 [michaelp]
GordonD: Libraries ro publish informarion about themselves for identification
15:09:28 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:09:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html emma
15:10:03 [michaelp]
... this can be subsumed under collection-level description
15:10:27 [michaelp]
... There is a DCMI AP for this which could be used
15:10:55 [michaelp]
... In a LOD environment this still has to be triplified
15:12:15 [michaelp]
... This type of collection-level metadata allows for pre-search filtering and inform decision of users
15:12:40 [michaelp]
Jeff: VCard could be used for this.
15:13:07 [michaelp]
edsu: Martin has already done this in Sweden.
15:13:45 [michaelp]
GordonD: We have this in a DB but not as linked data. We need advice.
15:14:15 [marcia]
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15:14:20 [michaelp]
... We want to link Sweden up with Scotland and the US. Sounds crazy, but is important for travelers.
15:14:31 [michaelp]
... and cross-cultural researchers.
15:15:17 [michaelp]
Alexander: Accessibility is key here. The accessbility of e.g. digital documents is in scope here.
15:15:53 [michaelp]
GordonD: Also availability of assistive technology is important info here.
15:16:31 [michaelp]
UC: Bibliographic Network
15:17:21 [michaelp]
... Seeking the use of FRBR to bring metadata components together.
15:17:59 [michaelp]
... Matching and deduping is another task in large-scale aggregations.
15:18:46 [michaelp]
... Background issue to this cluster: data in catalogs is heterogenous.
15:19:09 [michaelp]
... But users want homogenous discovery interface.
15:19:49 [michaelp]
... Linked data help by breaking these records down into components.
15:19:55 [michaelp]
... Some statements will be the same.
15:20:17 [michaelp]
... Focus shifts from the record to the statement.
15:20:31 [michaelp]
... Deduping can happen at a much lower level.
15:21:31 [michaelp]
... We need to get to the triples from the legacy records. There is a lot of work going on in this area.
15:21:47 [michaelp]
... Main barriers:
15:22:15 [michaelp]
... Need to find identification methods.
15:22:39 [michaelp]
... Matching URIs, establishing equality of sub-properties.
15:23:08 [michaelp]
... Comparing values; Dewey numbers same as Dewey caption?
15:24:29 [Jeff]
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15:24:46 [michaelp]
TomB: Do these fit into the same category?
15:25:36 [michaelp]
GordonD: They are all about record identification.
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15:26:06 [michaelp]
... But they are still multidimensional in terms of the way we have split up the topics.
15:26:18 [Jeff]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Topics
15:26:29 [michaelp]
TomB: My use cases fell into different topics.
15:27:01 [michaelp]
emma: We doesn't have to do the clustering today.
15:27:13 [michaelp]
s/doesn't/don't
15:27:45 [michaelp]
TomB: If a UC has three salient topics, there should be a sticker in each category for the UC.
15:28:47 [michaelp]
GordonD: I would leave it like it is at the moment; we can go back and look at the aspects of UCs in relation to topics later.
15:29:09 [michaelp]
TomB: We now try to identify the key topic. We break up the aspects later.
15:30:08 [michaelp]
kcoyle: Open Library UC has some FRBR aspects to it.
15:30:51 [michaelp]
TomB: Ok, we place it into LLD SW Technologies category.
15:30:59 [michaelp]
UC: Subject search
15:31:21 [michaelp]
antoine: Better use of subject vocabs for web search.
15:31:39 [michaelp]
... Subjects, works, web pages about subjects and works
15:31:50 [michaelp]
... The case addresses all of these aspects
15:32:20 [michaelp]
... The scenario allows the user to select a controlled subject that the system has selected.
15:32:58 [michaelp]
... Requirements/Linked Data: Availability of vocabs on the web.
15:33:14 [michaelp]
... and use of indentifiers.
15:33:46 [michaelp]
... Issues: Human readable URIs
15:34:03 [michaelp]
... URIs patterns for real-world objects.
15:34:42 [michaelp]
... Also, there might a difference in the view of the concepts of the concept provider vs. the user of the info.
15:35:12 [michaelp]
... Another issue is the presentation of simple subjects (user-friendly)
15:35:23 [michaelp]
... Vocab merging is another issue.
15:36:00 [michaelp]
... Cluster: It is about authority data and bibliographic data.
15:37:25 [michaelp]
Jeff: What I was trying to say in that UC is that by modeling these systems as linked data we can use web search technology like Google to do web searches with controlled vacabularies.
15:37:41 [michaelp]
s/vacabularies/vocabularies
15:37:55 [michaelp]
Jeff: Leveraging Google for semantic purposes
15:38:28 [michaelp]
kcoyle: Would that put it in the Semantic Web section?
15:38:51 [michaelp]
Jeff: Semantic Web environment
15:38:59 [michaelp]
... Ok
15:39:12 [michaelp]
Antoine: UC Digital preservation
15:39:29 [michaelp]
... Goal is to support planning and realization of digital preservation
15:39:58 [michaelp]
... Two kinds of data: technical data and preservation processes and agents.
15:40:37 [michaelp]
... Some vocabs of interest: Preservation vocabs from LC
15:40:43 [michaelp]
... OAI-ORE
15:40:57 [michaelp]
... DOAP: Description of a project
15:41:49 [michaelp]
... Scenario: Finding objects based in preservation criteria, tracking checking preservation actions.
15:42:45 [michaelp]
... Value of LD technology: linking items, sharing data across organizations.
15:43:19 [michaelp]
... Two main issues: Scalability and persistence; coverage of existing vocabs incomplete.
15:44:00 [michaelp]
... No related UC, but the data could be used in other UCs than preservation.
15:44:23 [michaelp]
... Cluster: Data management?
15:44:35 [michaelp]
emma: Non-bibliographic information?
15:45:10 [michaelp]
... We could cluster together with recollection, but the issue is completely different.
15:45:15 [michaelp]
... but the same context.
15:46:01 [michaelp]
antione: We put this UC in non-bibliographic data.
15:46:18 [LarsG]
s/antione/antoine
15:46:55 [michaelp]
... UC: Publishing 20th century press archive
15:47:28 [TomB]
Antoine: Provide every item of this collection a persistent identifier for citing.
15:47:30 [michaelp]
... General goal: provide for every item a persistent identifier.
15:48:19 [michaelp]
... Support the use of a standard metadata viewer.
15:48:21 [marma]
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15:48:49 [michaelp]
... Kind of data: bibliographic data + context data
15:49:24 [michaelp]
... Scenarios: User interacts with the system using provided metadata
15:49:29 [michaelp]
... search and browse
15:49:55 [edsu]
just added CDL's Merritt digital repository software to the digital preservation use case, since they use linkeddata for coordination of curation services: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Digital_Preservation
15:49:55 [michaelp]
... User can then view the images of the pages with the standard viewer.
15:50:14 [michaelp]
... Also, info from other sources is pulled in for the end user.
15:50:42 [emma]
thx edsu !
15:50:46 [michaelp]
... There is also a back-end service side that focusses on harvesting
15:51:05 [michaelp]
... Value of LD technology:
15:51:12 [michaelp]
... Good vocabs available
15:51:39 [michaelp]
... Availability of external sources as LD
15:52:01 [michaelp]
... RDFa for machine/human publication of metadata
15:52:30 [michaelp]
... Vocabs: ORE, SKOS, FOAF, RDA (persons), EXIF
15:52:47 [michaelp]
... Issues:
15:53:02 [michaelp]
... Representataion of adhoc aggregations
15:53:25 [michaelp]
... end-user display of rich data aggregations
15:53:47 [michaelp]
... Capturing the order of documents. Big problem in RDF
15:54:07 [michaelp]
... There are only cumbersome solutions available.
15:54:31 [LarsG]
added PRONOM as vocabulary for digital preservation http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Digital_Preservation#Related_Vocabularies_.28optional.29
15:54:38 [michaelp]
... Related UC: NDNP (Chronicling America), Europeana, VIAF
15:55:43 [edsu]
here's an example of martin's linked data for library institutions: http://libris.kb.se/resource/library/S
15:55:52 [Jeff]
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15:55:58 [michaelp]
TomB: Please squeeze in Europeana here.
15:56:38 [michaelp]
antoine: I don't think so. It touches many different aspects of several cases.
15:56:50 [michaelp]
TomB: Europeana is a mega-case!
15:57:19 [michaelp]
... Can we present NDNP now?
15:57:35 [michaelp]
emma: We had a presentation from Ed on the telecon.
15:57:53 [michaelp]
TomB: OK, so we just cluster it.
15:57:56 [edsu]
Scribe: Ed Summers
15:58:16 [edsu]
ScribeNick: edsu
15:58:17 [michaelp]
Scribenick: edsu
15:58:20 [edsu]
:-)
15:58:30 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:58:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html emma
15:58:35 [edsu]
antoine: Digital Text Repositories
15:59:02 [edsu]
... linking texts to authors and other contextual resources
15:59:39 [edsu]
... there are somre repositories that curate at level of books, and some that will curate at different levels, portions of books, poems, etc
16:00:22 [edsu]
... there was some frbr mentioned, digital editions as manifestations
16:01:03 [edsu]
... linking is useful for authors, topics and to existing descriptions from external sources ; to make cataloging faster
16:01:26 [edsu]
... also to enable citation
16:02:34 [edsu]
... also automatic alignment tools could be of use, for suggesting links in the text to other linked data resources
16:03:32 [edsu]
... linkeddata useful for adopting and sharing identifiers, and possibly for representing provenance data
16:03:56 [edsu]
... related to the open library data, subject search, and bibliographic network use cases
16:03:58 [jphipps]
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16:05:09 [edsu]
... not sure where to fit it in precisely
16:05:22 [edsu]
emma: we can create a topic if necessary
16:05:45 [edsu]
antoine: it seems bibliographic
16:05:57 [edsu]
emma: it seems to be about using library data that's used elsewhere
16:06:26 [edsu]
antoine: ok let's put it under USE.Consuming and using library data
16:06:53 [edsu]
kai: Citation of Scientific Data Sets http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Citation_of_Scientific_Datasets
16:07:19 [edsu]
... there is gaining interest in making data associated with research available
16:07:43 [edsu]
... in some domains there are some best practices, but they aren't globally identifiable
16:08:01 [edsu]
... focused on making the data citable
16:08:08 [edsu]
... there are 3 use cases
16:08:22 [edsu]
... 1) verification of research
16:08:31 [edsu]
... 2) find publications based on a dataset
16:09:13 [edsu]
... 3) reputation system to provide incentives for researchers to make their data available and citable
16:09:45 [edsu]
... a citation is nothing but a link, and they want to link the data so it's relevant for Linked Data
16:09:58 [edsu]
... an interesting case is if the data itself is linked data
16:10:20 [edsu]
... maybe the distributed nature to it, fits linked data as well
16:10:31 [edsu]
... possibly a future role for libraries: making data available
16:10:45 [edsu]
... existing work in the healthcare/lifescience work
16:11:02 [edsu]
... it's a cross domain problem, not very easy to define requirements
16:11:36 [edsu]
... we have different roles for people that are part of the process: authors, reviewers, etc
16:11:51 [edsu]
... there's no existing vocabulary for doing this
16:12:57 [edsu]
... may need to link the citations in publications as well
16:13:34 [edsu]
antoine: there is the need to reference an article in a newspaper
16:13:43 [edsu]
... in some other use cases
16:14:35 [edsu]
kai: i'm not sure how to classify the use case: maybe library data ; but also handling digital objects
16:14:45 [edsu]
antoine: is it also connected to the authorclaim case?
16:14:48 [edsu]
kai: yes
16:15:12 [edsu]
... it relies on authority data
16:15:22 [edsu]
... especially for people
16:15:38 [edsu]
emma: are you looking to enhance publication?
16:15:46 [edsu]
kai: yes
16:16:10 [edsu]
TomB: where are we going to put it, which category?
16:16:39 [edsu]
kai: is citation the main aspect, or scientific data?
16:18:04 [edsu]
oai-ore was kind of designed for this use case btw: http://dlib.org/dlib/october06/vandesompel/10vandesompel.html
16:18:34 [edsu]
kai pins the tail on Citation
16:19:08 [edsu]
markva: Enhanced Publications UC
16:19:24 [edsu]
... aggregates of papers, chapters, datasets
16:19:42 [edsu]
... contributed by the SURF foundation where they have 4 projects where the actually implemented it
16:20:21 [edsu]
... fits in with what kai just presented
16:20:37 [edsu]
... the've been using foaf, oai-ore, dctypes, dcterms
16:21:01 [edsu]
... i have some questions about what the use case is about
16:21:10 [edsu]
... are they annotating the content?
16:21:25 [edsu]
... otherwise very little added on top of ORE
16:21:48 [edsu]
... i think it should be clustered with citation scientific data uc
16:22:10 [edsu]
antoine: it also seemed kind of bibliographic too, focused on the publication
16:22:27 [edsu]
markva: it's focused on aggregates
16:22:36 [edsu]
kcoyle: kind of background information
16:22:53 [edsu]
markva: they have high res geological images that they would like to include
16:23:13 [edsu]
kcoyle: part of that is a data management issue; how do you make sure you store things and can assemble them again
16:23:24 [marma]
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16:23:41 [edsu]
kcoyle: why don't you put it in Data Management
16:23:56 [edsu]
markva: Mapping Scholarly Debate UC
16:24:48 [edsu]
... modelling rebutals, reactions, disagreements ; to capture evolution of thought
16:24:57 [edsu]
s/rebutals/rebuttals/
16:25:13 [edsu]
... the schemas are frbr like (work/manifestation) ; i wasn't able to access the schema
16:25:32 [edsu]
... it would be very useful to link to the actual schemas so you can see what people have been doing
16:26:03 [edsu]
... they have an implementation at bibliographica.org ; i couldn't drill down to the relationships ; wasn't clear if it is work that they would like to do, or have done
16:26:25 [edsu]
... could be relevant Digital Text Repository UC
16:26:48 [edsu]
... also NDNP UC, 20th Century Press Archives UCs
16:27:04 [edsu]
kcoyle: seems relevant to citation
16:27:18 [edsu]
... the *why* of citation
16:27:37 [edsu]
TomB: i think there might be overlap with linking across datasets
16:28:01 [edsu]
kcoyle: i think in the end we'll have things in multiple places
16:29:46 [edsu]
antoine: we could go back to the owner to figure what vocabulary they use, since william is in the IG
16:29:57 [edsu]
TomB: it's 12:30 so it's lunch
16:30:50 [edsu]
TomB: ray, lars, emma still have to present
16:32:06 [edsu]
rayd: Radio Station Archive Digitization UC
16:33:05 [edsu]
... current practice is that audio programs aren't often digitized, litle metadata ; the goal is to enable cross references, and search
16:33:41 [edsu]
... the scenario about an archivist who is creating and annotating the digital versions
16:34:34 [edsu]
... linked data is useful for subclassing dc:identifier, creating new vocabulary for interviewer, people, etc
16:35:00 [edsu]
... there is little guidance for creating metaata about audio recordings, and provenance information (who created various things)
16:35:39 [edsu]
... also seem ot be missing vocabulary for documenting uncertainty
16:35:43 [edsu]
s/ot/to/
16:35:57 [edsu]
... it all boils down to a vocabulary problem
16:36:05 [edsu]
... a vocabulary for radio programming
16:36:14 [edsu]
kcoyle: it sounded like building an internal system
16:36:34 [edsu]
rayd: i didn't get that sense that it was internally focused
16:37:08 [edsu]
kcoyle: it is almost identical to the linkeddata discussion we had around someone from pbs who was creating vocabulary for programming
16:38:18 [edsu]
edsu: also the work that the bbc are doing
16:38:34 [edsu]
emma: LOCAH Project and Photo Museum UCs
16:38:45 [edsu]
... they have a connection because they are both about archival material
16:39:04 [edsu]
... the materials in archives are generally unique, in high quantities, and multiple content carriers
16:39:20 [edsu]
... the challenge is to get common view of these materials, so that they can be found
16:39:34 [edsu]
... they have hierarchical descriptions, contextual information is very important
16:39:48 [edsu]
... ordered sequences, which are more difficult in RDF
16:40:19 [edsu]
... sometimes the data is semi-structured, and there are quality issues (similar to radio archive)
16:40:56 [edsu]
... they want linkeddata to provide a hub, to make it easier for users to get to the materials, and related materials via the context
16:41:10 [edsu]
... linking to dbpedia, library content, library authorities
16:41:54 [edsu]
they used dcterms, bibo, foaf, skos, rdfs, frbr
16:42:16 [edsu]
emma: but the use of bibo wasn't clear, they said they just put it in there
16:42:36 [edsu]
... they aren't working on converting ead to rdf, they are going back to ISAD(G)
16:43:14 [edsu]
... similar to the FRBR -> RDF efforts, which aren't oriented around marc
16:43:53 [edsu]
... maybe cluster with radio station archive
16:44:09 [edsu]
... Recollection UC
16:44:51 [edsu]
... an effort from NDIIPP to enable discovery of resources, to provide a tool to easily aggregate archives, to create descriptions of them, and to publish as linked data
16:45:07 [edsu]
... could be a bit different because it is a digital archive
16:45:18 [edsu]
antoine: that case is quite connected to the europeana one
16:46:19 [edsu]
corey harper: just last week there was an interesting thread about generating OWL for EAD
16:46:27 [edsu]
antoine: yes, i've been involved in one of those things
16:46:45 [edsu]
corey harper: it's strange because it's more a document format for finding aids
16:47:37 [edsu]
GordonD: there was a meeting in helsinki about the archival communities search for a data model that connects up with libraries and museums
16:47:46 [charper]
The thread I menteiond starts here: http://listserv.loc.gov/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1010&L=ead&T=0&P=1910
16:49:04 [edsu]
s/corey harper/charper/
16:49:23 [edsu]
kai: are they going to publish it as an ontology
16:49:40 [edsu]
GordonD: on the CIDOC/CRM site it is published as rdfs
16:49:54 [edsu]
... it's an evolving supermodel across libraries/arhives and museums
16:50:09 [edsu]
LarsG: PODE UC
16:50:22 [edsu]
... it's about pulling together linked data
16:50:34 [edsu]
... wikipedia, project gutenberg
16:50:50 [edsu]
... phase 1 is about frbrising, mashing library data through web service apis
16:52:05 [edsu]
... 2nd phase is about finding non-fiction material via links to external datasets
16:52:21 [edsu]
... marc records are very inconsistent, 40 years of doing things sort of the same way
16:52:40 [edsu]
... also dewey.info is only summaries
16:53:49 [edsu]
... uses frbr, dc, bibo, lexvo, geonames, foaf, skos
16:54:03 [edsu]
... not really sure about what people want to use the data for
16:54:15 [edsu]
... i would put it under USE
16:54:26 [edsu]
antoine: also related to bibliographic network
16:54:42 [edsu]
... perhaps what we should do later is flag the more user oriented ones
16:55:07 [edsu]
TomB: ok, it's time to break for lunch
16:55:39 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:55:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html emma
17:00:30 [Zakim]
-antoine
17:00:31 [Zakim]
INC_LLDXG(INC_LLDXG)8:30AM has ended
17:00:31 [Zakim]
Attendees were antoine
17:08:35 [Zakim]
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18:03:50 [emma]
zakim, are you here ?
18:05:25 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
18:05:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html emma
18:06:12 [Zakim]
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18:06:40 [emma]
zakim, where have you been ?
18:06:40 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, emma.
18:08:24 [emma]
zakim, why did you leave us like that ?
18:08:24 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, emma.
18:08:47 [emma]
zakim, this will be lld
18:08:47 [Zakim]
ok, emma; I see INC_LLDXG(INC_LLDXG)8:30AM scheduled to start 338 minutes ago
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INC_LLDXG(INC_LLDXG)8:30AM has now started
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+[IPcaller]
18:22:05 [antoine]
zakim, IPcaller
18:22:05 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'IPcaller', antoine
18:22:16 [antoine]
zakim, IPcaller is me
18:22:16 [Zakim]
+antoine; got it
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18:23:01 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
18:23:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html antoine
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18:23:24 [marma]
Scribe: Martin Malmsten
18:23:37 [emma]
Scribenick: marma
18:27:02 [marma]
Meeting resumes after lunch
18:27:40 [TomB]
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18:27:50 [Jeff]
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18:31:45 [Jeff]
antoine: looking at vocabularies that are being used and how they can be aligned
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18:32:05 [emma]
Scribe: Jeff
18:32:14 [emma]
scribenick: jeff
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18:32:23 [Jeff]
alexander: still intend to look at requirements?
18:32:39 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
18:32:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html emma
18:32:41 [Jeff]
antoine: yes, look at requirements first
18:33:00 [jodi]
hi! I'll just be popping in while I'm online this weekend. :)
18:33:12 [Jeff]
antoine: do the vocabularies we have do what we want and where are the gaps?
18:33:58 [Jeff]
alexander: requirements should include sparql and protocol into the discussion?
18:34:24 [Jeff]
antoine: focus on vocabularies first and then talk about other requirement issues
18:34:28 [marcia]
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18:35:20 [Jeff]
antoine: gordon wrote document about library standards and linked data
18:35:44 [Jeff]
antoine: but start first with use cases and look at vocabularies they're using
18:36:43 [Jeff]
antoine: start with with bibliographic data vocabularies
18:37:14 [Jeff]
bib networks
18:37:22 [marma]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Bibliographic_Network
18:37:24 [antoine]
-> Use Case Bibliographic Network
18:37:32 [Jeff]
gordon:
18:37:43 [Jeff]
vivo and frbrcore
18:37:56 [emma]
s/vivo/bibo
18:38:37 [Jeff]
gordon: concerns of frbrcore, including modeling mistakes
18:38:51 [charper]
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18:39:15 [Jeff]
karen: but it was the earliest and frbrer is only around 3 weeks
18:39:29 [Jeff]
emma: but frbrcore is being used outside the library community
18:40:08 [Jeff]
tomb: is persistence of frbrcore a concern?
18:41:05 [Jeff]
gordon: ifla frbrer can be trusted with persistence. unlike frbrcore
18:41:39 [Jeff]
dianeH: persistence and ownership is critically important exp. for larger libraries
18:42:04 [Jeff]
... not willing to invest in ontologies they don't trust
18:42:31 [Jeff]
edsu: I'm willing to trust frbrcore, but it's behind the scenes
18:42:35 [emma]
+1 with dianeH's statement
18:42:46 [Jeff]
karen: frbrcore was published before FRBR was cooked
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18:43:36 [Jeff]
kcoyle: encourage groups dragging their feet to realize people want to use these ASAP
18:44:08 [Jeff]
antoine: what about bibo? is there a relationship with FRBR?
18:44:41 [Jeff]
kcoyle: bibo is more about academic articles and citations
18:44:55 [Jeff]
... and journal articles
18:46:02 [Jeff]
bibo uses frbrcore, dc, and a mashup of other vocabularies with some additions
18:46:29 [Jeff]
bibo and frbr could be derived from the same underlying data
18:47:15 [Jeff]
edsu: bibo is concrete and intuitive and that's a useful thing
18:47:48 [Jeff]
karen: looking a bibo, they don't include frbr
18:48:40 [Jeff]
mpanzer: they're more interested in a citation perspective
18:49:19 [Jeff]
martin: casual users will be attracted to bibo
18:49:47 [Jeff]
martin: mapping between frbr and bibo is a useful thing
18:50:06 [Jeff]
gordon: true. Who's responsible for dealing with this mapping?
18:51:16 [Jeff]
antoine: the LLD XG wiki could be used to list vocabularies and maintain links between them
18:52:07 [Jeff]
TomB: LLD XG could provide guidelines for others to maintain links to vocabularies rather than expecting to to be managed centrally
18:53:11 [edsu]
kcoyle is right (i was wrong) bibo doesn't use frbr at all
18:53:13 [Jeff]
tom: mapping relationships between different vocabularies that are constantly evolving is a complex process
18:54:55 [Jeff]
corey: the expertise in this room can help explain how others can connect their vocabularies to otheres
18:55:53 [Jeff]
gordon: the issues of cross relationships becomes a problem of institutional agreements and politics
18:56:32 [edsu]
looks like bibo uses: dcterms, foaf, vann, owl, skos, event, prism
18:56:49 [Jeff]
gordon: who could manage these: IFLA, W3C and ...
18:57:06 [Jeff]
... DCMI
18:57:06 [emma]
... and dcmi
18:57:17 [emma]
exactly ;-)
18:58:00 [Jeff]
gordon: cultural shift that needs to happen to open world movement/assumption. It's a foreign idea still
18:58:18 [TomB]
Gordon: cultural shift - orgs rooted in 20th century - open movement - something completely foreign as paradigms. It suits everyone's interest to move into that for the future, because failed in the past.
18:58:53 [Jeff]
edsu: an opportunity to create a process for things to incubate elsewhere and then be adopted and developed by major organizations.
18:59:18 [Jeff]
major organizations need to be more open to foreign models
18:59:25 [Jeff]
NISO has this problem
18:59:50 [Jeff]
NISO has a process to move projects from somebody's garage to a managed space
19:00:45 [edsu]
TomB and Harry Halpin's paper: http://www.aaai.org/ocs/index.php/SSS/SSS10/paper/view/1140
19:00:49 [Jeff]
TomB: vocabulary developers partner with cultural memory organizations and national libraries. Partnership where the organization takes over long term
19:01:20 [Jeff]
... this creates a level of trust without imposing too much early bureaucracy
19:02:19 [Jeff]
emma: could the major organizations take the initiative to encourage and nurture promising vocabularies
19:02:47 [marma]
one triple, one vote?
19:03:18 [ww]
marma: after minimisation? :P
19:03:22 [Jeff]
mpanzer: Simply using a vocabulary is an endorsements, but it's still not curation
19:03:40 [TomB]
Ed thanks Antoine for opening up the can of worms :-)
19:04:09 [edsu]
it's an important can of worms though :-)
19:04:15 [Jeff]
antoine: keep track of links from vocabularies to use cases and vice versa
19:05:31 [Jeff]
jeff: we can create a database of two way linking
19:06:14 [Jeff]
edsu: I'm keeping a tally, but the links would be useful
19:07:07 [Jeff]
ACTION; champion of each use case owner should send links to vocabularies
19:07:18 [Jeff]
... to Paul
19:07:55 [rayd]
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19:08:34 [antoine]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Vocabularies
19:08:48 [edsu]
here's the tally i made of vocabs mentioned during the presentations this morning: http://gist.github.com/642570
19:09:35 [michaelp]
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19:10:39 [Jeff]
ACTION: for each use case champion: on the Vocabularies page, link to each URL use case that uses it
19:11:23 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
19:11:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html emma
19:12:51 [Jeff]
antoine: continue to look at use cases...
19:13:13 [Jeff]
TomB: identification and deduplication
19:13:21 [Jeff]
Gordon: no vocabularies listed
19:13:46 [Jeff]
TomB: Regional catalog/vocabularies
19:14:00 [Jeff]
gordon: bibo, FRBR, etc.
19:14:12 [TomB]
s/that uses it/that uses it - see http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2005\/Incubator\/lld\/wik\i/Vocabularies/
19:14:13 [Jeff]
... RDF
19:14:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html TomB
19:15:37 [Jeff]
gordon: problems and limitations: lack of political will, ownership, rights, finding synonymous identifiers, lookup service for bibliographic items
19:15:56 [paulwalk]
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19:16:51 [Jeff]
Data NDNP skos, foaf, rda
19:17:37 [emma]
s/Data NDNP/Data BNF
19:17:42 [TomB]
emma? rrsagent doesn't seem to be generating the minutes correctly, but the irc log seems complete - http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-irc
19:18:24 [Jeff]
gordon: frbrizatoin is a concern because it makes assumptions in the underlying data
19:18:40 [Jeff]
antoine: the data needs to be enriched
19:19:11 [Jeff]
gordon: this may be more of an assumption than a reality. Is it a mistake to mix and match vocabularies?
19:20:24 [Jeff]
antoine: there are perceptions that specific vocabularies are psychologically difficult to embrace.
19:20:56 [Jeff]
kcoyle: what's the goal of identifying vocabularies listed in the use case. What the purpose?
19:21:27 [Jeff]
antoine: the purpose is to identify the issues and concerns of using vocabularies
19:22:14 [Jeff]
gordon: are we imagining difficulties and issues because of the vocabularies are or are not being used?
19:23:05 [Jeff]
TomB: persistence, mapping, is good. Scope and limitations may not be so important
19:23:43 [Jeff]
... If the ontologies are slow to publish URIs, is that a clue to complexity and uncertainty? Bounded/unbounded concerns may be a problem.
19:24:07 [Jeff]
... The goal isn't to "review" these vocabularies, just to ideentify the issues
19:24:27 [Jeff]
kcoyle: RDF vocabulares only, or are other vocabularis in scope?
19:24:51 [Jeff]
antoine: assume that non-RDF vocabularies will be developed eventually
19:25:39 [Jeff]
TomB: it's worth mentioning potential issues converting vocabularies into RDF
19:26:09 [kcoyle]
i can if it doesn't have to be anything but text
19:26:22 [kcoyle]
i can type, i don't remember scribe talk
19:26:35 [kcoyle]
ok
19:27:28 [emma]
Scribe : Karen
19:27:35 [emma]
Scribenick : kcoyle
19:27:57 [kcoyle]
library standards time is very long -- three years is a short time (frbr, etc.)
19:28:26 [kcoyle]
gordon: we may be providing a framework to encourage linking between vocab developers
19:29:05 [kcoyle]
karen has better sense of what we are doing. we can go on
19:29:57 [kcoyle]
gordon: polymas case... viaf, lcsh, rameau, linked data services of dnb, insittuto geografic nacionaol espana
19:30:17 [kcoyle]
... igN? ebn? dbpedia
19:30:21 [emma]
s/polymas/polymath
19:30:30 [emma]
EDM Europeana Data Model
19:30:39 [LarsG]
s/ebn/EDM/
19:30:45 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
19:30:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html emma
19:31:14 [kcoyle]
using lcsh -- is the data set, not a metadata schema
19:31:45 [kcoyle]
is a controlled vocabulary; emma: we have them on the wiki page for vocabs
19:32:50 [kcoyle]
that is a big can of worms because of all of the semantic alignments between them. (gordon, and others)
19:33:12 [kcoyle]
... this may be too difficult
19:33:32 [kcoyle]
edsu: disagrees, because there aren't many more than 10 in the library world
19:34:02 [kcoyle]
... they should be kept separate, but maybe we can gt to that later
19:34:48 [kcoyle]
jeff: viaf ontology doesn't always make sense; maybe needs revision before others begin to use it
19:35:10 [LarsG]
s/ebn?/EDM/
19:36:10 [kcoyle]
gordon: feedback mechanism that causes ontologies to be revised
19:36:51 [kcoyle]
tom: needs for namespace policies that articulate how vocab will evolve, e.g. dc: if semantics change, will coin new uri
19:37:28 [kcoyle]
tom: needs for namespace policies that articulate how vocab will evolve, e.g. dc: if semantics change, new uri is coined
19:37:50 [kcoyle]
not clear if dbpedia/wikipedia have such a policy
19:38:19 [kcoyle]
what does stability mean on web?
19:38:53 [kcoyle]
mpanzer: most semantics are conveyed in notes fields
19:39:18 [jodi]
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19:39:59 [kcoyle]
... do vocabs from same ontology have to be used together to have correct semantics?
19:41:59 [kcoyle]
jon: we are identifying organizational level problems for use of linked data, but are in an environment that doesn't have that commitment
19:42:39 [kcoyle]
emma: points: ownership, official and not
19:43:03 [kcoyle]
... institutions should provide links between vocabs and curate them
19:43:19 [kcoyle]
... barriers - some are perceived more difficult one
19:43:26 [kcoyle]
... persistence policies
19:44:04 [kcoyle]
... can you pick some from a vocabulary and not use whole vocabulary guidelines?
19:44:22 [kcoyle]
kc: how do you know what can stand alone?
19:44:41 [kcoyle]
jon: does it matter?
19:45:31 [kcoyle]
kc: there can be dependencies between items in vocab
19:46:27 [kcoyle]
mpanzer: ontological baggage, is not part of linked data stack
19:47:00 [kcoyle]
charper: isn't that covered by domains and ranges?
19:47:43 [kcoyle]
mpanzer: domains and ranges are only two pieces of a relationship; there can be other parts/relationships
19:47:53 [kcoyle]
... and domains and ranges are not constraints
19:48:58 [kcoyle]
jon: we are talking about Lld, which has an existing domain model, exemplified by marc21
19:49:14 [kcoyle]
... and marc21 is not expressed anywhere in rdf
19:50:02 [kcoyle]
tomB: we are talking about a larger environment
19:50:37 [kcoyle]
jon: we are talking about other things because we can't talk about marc21 in a linked data context
19:50:49 [kcoyle]
emma: can't, or don't want to?
19:51:05 [ww]
jon: marc21 as rdf: curl -H "Accept: text/n3" http://bibliographica.org/301b111e-0dc0-5e34-a5e6-06c461d51789/57512
19:51:27 [kcoyle]
mark: what could go wrong when we use pieces from other vocabs?
19:52:09 [kcoyle]
mpanzer: if you assume everyone using ore properties provides a resource map... but not necessarily the case
19:53:22 [kcoyle]
... linked data doesn't know about APs, doesn't know about records. our domain has highly structured data
19:53:32 [kcoyle]
... what does linked data mean for us?
19:53:33 [ww]
mpanzer: quite so, bibliographica uses ore to group together graphs... and doesn't provide a resource map
19:54:07 [ww]
e.g: http://bibliographica.org/aggregate/301b111e-0dc0-5e34-a5e6-06c461d51789/57512/contributor/1
19:54:18 [kcoyle]
tomB: libraries rely on data definitions that are out of band in the lld environment
19:55:16 [kcoyle]
... data received may not meet users' definitions; LD has formal relationships, but not a community view
19:55:49 [kcoyle]
jon: this is a significant flaw in the way we think about linked data
19:56:00 [kcoyle]
... inld, each statement in itself makes sense
19:56:25 [kcoyle]
... but for a complete description, may need more than one statement
19:57:01 [kcoyle]
gordon: where we started... choosing different properties from different name spaces
19:57:32 [kcoyle]
... one issue is definitions; if they aren't absolutely precise, they will be used wrongly
19:57:53 [kcoyle]
... meaning that definitions have to be very clear, but in library world we have many assumptions
19:58:12 [kcoyle]
... frad has class called Person defined as "an individual" - not helpful
19:58:26 [ww]
even if the definitions are very precise they will be used wrongly cf. owl:sameAs
19:58:29 [kcoyle]
... the mark twain sam clemens problem
19:59:09 [kcoyle]
... lassie is creator of paw print outside of grauman's chinese
19:59:24 [emma]
in FOAF i read "Something is a Person if it is a person." is that much better ?!
20:00:18 [kcoyle]
gordon: vocabulary creators need guidance on creating definitions that can make sense outside of the context of the vocabulary
20:00:46 [kcoyle]
edsu: in the end, those that don't make sense won't be used
20:01:11 [jodi]
gordon++
20:01:20 [kcoyle]
tomB: library community definitions are natural language concepts
20:01:33 [kcoyle]
... LD world uses formal relationships to other terms
20:02:07 [kcoyle]
... skos vocabulary terms were never defined in natural language
20:03:01 [kcoyle]
diane: ref. dcmi/rda task group work, and its lessons
20:03:29 [kcoyle]
... no 'how to' guidance for building vocabularies for the web
20:04:13 [kcoyle]
... this group is identifying some issues about what that guidance might be
20:04:18 [edsu]
diane's paper http://www.dlib.org/dlib/january10/hillmann/01hillmann.html
20:04:27 [kcoyle]
antoine: strongly related to concept of application profiles
20:05:03 [kcoyle]
mpanzer: w3c has recipes and best practices; that is what could come out of this group
20:05:20 [kcoyle]
... not normative, but helping people who need to do something
20:06:08 [kcoyle]
... could be aimed just at library data, so it is do-able
20:06:13 [marcia]
+1 mpanzer recipes and best practices
20:06:20 [edsu]
+1 to michael's suggestion for best practice docs
20:06:21 [marma]
+1
20:06:45 [ww]
+1
20:06:53 [LarsG]
+1
20:07:01 [kcoyle]
antoine: let'a make this part of the deliverables discussion
20:07:09 [kcoyle]
break!
20:07:42 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes again
20:07:42 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft minutes again', emma. Try /msg RRSAgent help
20:07:49 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
20:07:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html emma
20:30:09 [Jeff]
Jeff has joined #lld
20:30:49 [LarsG]
s/LarcG/LarsG/
20:31:15 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
20:31:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html emma
20:34:07 [emma]
Scribe: Marcia
20:34:08 [marcia]
another hour for vocabularies
20:34:15 [emma]
Scribenick: marcia
20:35:04 [marcia]
TomB: encoding vocabularies issues
20:35:26 [marcia]
... how to identify the sources that control the controlled vocab. terms
20:35:45 [marcia]
... this is an issue
20:37:15 [marcia]
... waiting for Jon for some special issue related to MARC
20:37:49 [marcia]
... differences discussed yesterday about DCAM and metadata language
20:38:21 [marcia]
... community and info services case
20:38:55 [charper]
charper has joined #lld
20:39:15 [marcia]
Gordon: Use Case Community Information Service
20:40:02 [marcia]
tomb: Use Case Linked Data and legacy library applications case?
20:40:57 [marcia]
Jeff: # Use Case Open Library Data :FRBR, RDA VOCab
20:41:55 [marcia]
karen: Use Case Virtual International Authority File (VIAF):
20:42:38 [marcia]
Jeff: there is a problem. In the VIAF, we kept adding individual elements that make sense. There is no vocabs available.
20:43:21 [marcia]
Gordon: future is that FDA to do all the control-related things
20:43:43 [emma]
s/FDA/FRAD
20:44:19 [marcia]
Gordon: FRAD has a very rich properties for person.
20:44:34 [marcia]
... compared for person defined by FRBR, FRAD, FOAF
20:45:32 [marcia]
Karen: there are properties in FOAF that library data do not use at all.
20:46:29 [marcia]
Alex: our database has to do a detour to link the different first name... (?) we had to add an element
20:47:10 [emma]
...link each variant first name whith corresponding last name
20:47:35 [LarsG]
... we had to add a bnode
20:47:37 [marcia]
Ed: to help library users, could libraries to be parteners to develop
20:48:42 [jodi_]
jodi_ has joined #LLD
20:49:12 [marcia]
michaelP: issues of complexity. local properties are not expected to be adopted by others. Should add as FOAF sub-properties, in the future people can use the dump-down approach
20:49:14 [edsu]
for the record I was just relaying to Alex that danbri is looking to partner w/ people like alex and the dnb in the library community to add missing things to foaf
20:49:34 [edsu]
doesn't necessarily need to be The Library Community
20:49:36 [markva]
+1 michaelp
20:49:54 [kai]
kai has joined #lld
20:50:24 [edsu]
+1 charper # linking to foaf, so that library data can interoperate with the larger world of linked data
20:50:59 [marcia]
gordon: to distinguish different identities of people, libraries may use other data such as home address to help.
20:51:30 [marcia]
... other iddues: redundant, depricated
20:51:41 [LarsG]
s/iddues/issues/
20:51:42 [TomB]
as mentioned during break: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Oct/0098.html - just posted - Mikael Nilsson on Thoughts on validation / documentation / abstract models in reaction to yesterday's application profile discussion
20:51:58 [michaelp]
Expressing person name authority data as linked data doesn't necessarily mean producing triples that can act as a surrogate of the MARC data.
20:53:30 [marcia]
gordon: context is important to the meaning, not always carries in the definitions.
20:53:51 [emma]
Gordon: authority headings is different from describing persons
20:54:32 [emma]
Jeff: this is, the label is different from the concept
20:54:41 [marcia]
Jeff: heard more like about the label of the person
20:55:59 [marcia]
gordon: conversion issue
20:56:15 [LarsG]
GordonD: models develop through feedback and eventually they converge.
20:57:05 [marcia]
tomB: when DC:create domain has not merged with RDF, later created dcterms:creator to assign domain range. Difficult to explain to the RDF people
20:57:43 [marcia]
... heard people prefer to have property un-constained
20:58:37 [LarsG]
s/un-constained/un-constrained/
20:58:38 [marcia]
ed: yesterday's Linked Data session of Karen and Corey discussed about constrain issues
20:58:55 [emma]
...it's about ontological commitment : the more you say, the more guidance, but also constraints
20:59:13 [marcia]
... may bring new problems
21:00:31 [marcia]
tomB: the group is carried away a little bit from LLD per se
21:00:35 [emma]
TomB: feedback on DC was that it's good to make that commitment
21:01:31 [marcia]
not constrained the range is useful
21:01:57 [emma]
Markva: not constraining the range is only OK if you have a mechanism to constraint it locally
21:02:27 [marcia]
mark: in some case it is good to have range constrained
21:03:21 [markva]
... has a function in recommending people what you want in ranges, either literals or URIs
21:03:46 [LarsG]
antoine: there was a MARC ontology under construction at DERI a few years ago, but no it's gone
21:03:48 [markva]
... in context of linked data, often you want URIs, e.g. for creators
21:03:51 [emma]
Antoine: none of our use case mentions the need for a MARC vocabulary
21:04:22 [marcia]
karen: MARC people probably has a big gap with the linked data
21:04:47 [LarsG]
kcoyle: there is a use for MARC in RDF
21:05:00 [emma]
... the issue is to translate legacy data into other thing, one way may be marc
21:05:27 [marcia]
Ray: regarding MARC expressed as RDF
21:05:50 [marcia]
... MADS
21:05:50 [emma]
MADS and MODS were actually mentionned in Use Cases
21:05:54 [jodi]
jodi has joined #LLD
21:05:59 [edsu]
markva: is your dissertation available online somewhere?
21:06:15 [edsu]
markva: i was just fishing around on http://www.few.vu.nl/~mark/
21:06:48 [markva]
http://www.cs.vu.nl/~mark/papers/thesis-mfjvanassem.pdf
21:06:54 [marcia]
emma: AACR, RDA, ISBD
21:07:09 [marcia]
MODS and MADS are formats
21:07:40 [marcia]
Jon: there was a presentation, that break MARC records into statements
21:07:57 [marcia]
... explain this how data can be expressed in linked data
21:08:47 [marcia]
Karen: there are problems to make the MARC data into that kind of statements
21:09:14 [marcia]
gordon: unimarc still allign with ISBD
21:09:19 [jneubert]
jneubert has joined #lld
21:09:25 [marcia]
... some other allignments are complicated
21:09:42 [marcia]
... registered ISBD in registry
21:10:08 [markva]
funny to hear people talk about modelling me ;)
21:10:44 [edsu]
markva: thanks!
21:11:10 [marcia]
tomB: Use Case FAO Authority Description Concept Scheme: SKOS, RDF, FOAF, ???
21:11:18 [marcia]
... there is an issue of RDA
21:11:28 [markva]
hope somebody actually reads it...
21:12:47 [emma]
Alex: GND vocabulary, not registered yet, not for reuse
21:12:48 [marcia]
Alex: there was one vocab that did not mentioned. Not sure what's coming next-- official or not
21:13:19 [marcia]
... RDA, SKOS, ???
21:13:46 [marcia]
... conncecting the headings to other vocabs.
21:14:10 [marcia]
... person including academic title
21:14:29 [marcia]
... map to MADS
21:15:07 [marcia]
... all mapping things are working on. maybe next 6 months to work on
21:16:11 [marcia]
Lars: about the timeline of the LD project
21:16:46 [marcia]
Alex: we have the vocabulary, but did not regiter them
21:16:57 [marcia]
... already has the description, document
21:17:11 [marcia]
tomB: this is an issue
21:17:19 [marcia]
registry of resitry
21:17:43 [marcia]
... URIs are being point
21:17:59 [marcia]
... registry become a portal and management tool, a secondary thing
21:18:43 [marcia]
the word 'registry' in the context of point to URIs is a problem
21:19:16 [marcia]
michael: you could do in your data
21:20:44 [marcia]
tomB: registry is problematic now. it is confusing
21:20:55 [marcia]
... there are registry under registry.
21:21:09 [marcia]
... has the problem with the word "to register'
21:21:25 [michaelp]
In linked data context, "registering" in an external database is quite misleading.
21:21:43 [marcia]
gordon: I used term consistently, to represent your property in the registry
21:22:04 [markva]
TomB: "registring" is same as coining a URI
21:22:16 [michaelp]
Coining a URI, defining semantics and making this definition available in RDF when this URI is dereferenced is enough.
21:22:56 [marcia]
koren: there are people who do not know the meaning of registry, with domain name behind it
21:23:21 [marcia]
tomB: nothing about the registry in the sense of Diane and Jon's I do not like
21:23:30 [marcia]
... the issue is the environment
21:23:31 [michaelp]
DNB could do that without relying on an external provider.
21:23:51 [marcia]
... registrying in the LD context is to coin a URI.
21:25:02 [marcia]
... the URI is coined in a registry is... by using the word 'to registry' is important from vocab management point of view, but is not the sense in linked data.
21:25:21 [markva]
TomB: putting something in registry is orthogonal to use in LD
21:26:04 [marcia]
Jon: formal official namespace registry
21:26:21 [marcia]
... registration is a formalization of that namespace
21:27:27 [marcia]
Alex: one of the requirements is that a vocab has to have a place to be referred to, look for provoence, etc
21:28:18 [marcia]
michael: national libraries do not need domain names, no requirements to rely on external services
21:28:50 [marcia]
Alex: we have internal and external services. Human reable version and machine readable version.
21:29:27 [marcia]
tomB: something is resolvable is machine ...?
21:29:40 [michaelp]
Registries are helpful if you have no easy access to a domain name / namespace. This is usually not an issue for a big library organization.
21:30:38 [marcia]
corey: how do you track the change of the data, should be an important issue to be discussed here
21:30:38 [michaelp]
There is no requirements "to register" properties / vocabularies externally to make them "official".
21:31:22 [marcia]
antoine: what are the basic requirements, what are the most important, distinguish with others
21:31:40 [marcia]
tomB: move on.
21:31:48 [michaelp]
Coining the URI is the statement that matters.
21:32:01 [marcia]
... wrap up this discussion
21:32:39 [marcia]
... I would like the group not use to verb 'to register' when not coin a URI
21:33:14 [marcia]
scribe: Lars
21:33:27 [michaelp]
Corey: Registries provide services that are not available by just using conneg and publishing a flat RDF.
21:33:36 [marcia]
*ok
21:33:53 [marcia]
gordon: not happy to use the word 'publishing' either
21:34:27 [marcia]
... to register imply some requirements
21:35:15 [marcia]
jon: registry is a namespace service, also for trusted vocabularies
21:35:29 [marcia]
... it is more than linked data environment
21:37:08 [markva]
michaelp: maintaining a URI is not a function of technology but function of an organisation (after Stu Weibel)
21:37:22 [LarsG]
+1 to Stu Weibel
21:37:45 [michaelp]
mantaining and persistence ...
21:37:58 [edsu]
+1 for moving on
21:38:01 [marcia]
*emma: could you have another person to scribe?
21:38:19 [edsu]
emma++
21:39:12 [michaelp]
Alexander: We have to keep this issue in mind in terms of best practices.
21:39:21 [emma]
Scribe: Gordon
21:39:25 [michaelp]
TomB: Registries good, not required.
21:39:34 [emma]
Scribenick: GordonD
21:39:41 [edsu]
_+1 for rolling registry information into potential best practice doc
21:39:56 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
21:39:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html emma
21:40:20 [GordonD]
Alex: need some way to say a property is deprecated, etc.
21:40:39 [GordonD]
Corey: Need to know of previous version, etc.
21:41:24 [GordonD]
Karen: Let people use the technology they have
21:41:44 [GordonD]
Karen: Best practice, not requirement
21:42:16 [GordonD]
Karen: We need to say that versioning, etc. is a good thing, but shouldn't dictate that this is a requirement
21:43:01 [GordonD]
All: Agree, it's best practice, and a good thing to have a registry to support important services
21:49:19 [GordonD]
New topic: Deliverables required by May 2011
21:49:41 [GordonD]
Emmanuelle: One report expected.
21:50:10 [GordonD]
Emmanuelle: Discuss YouTube video this evening
21:51:03 [GordonD]
Emmanuelle: Have captured vocabulary requirements from this afternoon's discussion ...
21:52:04 [GordonD]
Emmanuelle: Requirements on three slides
21:59:47 [edsu]
paulwalk: http://172.22.172.216/topics
22:01:21 [GordonD]
All: discussion on requirements, slides adjusted, some requirements need to be revisited and further discussed
22:01:39 [marcia]
marcia has joined #lld
22:02:00 [GordonD]
Emmanuelle: Concern now is to move from use cases/requirements to deliverable
22:02:46 [GordonD]
Antoine: Go through the components of the deliverable and identify who is interested in developing them
22:03:41 [GordonD]
Emmanuelle: Small groups could analyze use-case clusters
22:05:00 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, antoine, in INC_LLDXG(INC_LLDXG)8:30AM
22:05:05 [Zakim]
INC_LLDXG(INC_LLDXG)8:30AM has ended
22:05:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were antoine
22:05:23 [GordonD]
Kai: For each cluster, extract scenarios, abstract from them, and develop single-action use-cases (what a use-case really is)
22:06:10 [GordonD]
Antoine: Allows a check that these really are clusters
22:07:00 [GordonD]
Karen: What are the clusters?
22:08:01 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #lld
22:09:45 [GordonD]
Emmanuelle: May be other clusters emerging from use-cases not discussed today
22:10:58 [GordonD]
Alex: What is the deadline for completing this work?
22:11:15 [GordonD]
Emmanuelle: By end of December
22:13:36 [michaelp]
michaelp has joined #lld
22:13:47 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
22:13:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html antoine
22:17:46 [GordonD]
Emmanuelle: We will invite XG members not present to add their names to curation teams
22:18:02 [antoine]
ACTION: Karen and Emma to curate archive cluster for end of december
22:18:38 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
22:18:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html antoine
22:18:54 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #lld
22:20:58 [GordonD]
Emmanuelle: Other deliverable is relevant technology pieces, etc.
22:21:53 [GordonD]
Antoine: Outreach and dissemination activities are in charter - some progress to this already embedded in wiki
22:22:46 [GordonD]
Emmanuelle: Tomorrow, we should take each topic and see if it translates into deliverable
22:23:30 [jodi]
jodi has joined #LLD
22:25:16 [GordonD]
Emmanuelle: If we want to create further W3C activity we should charter it
22:26:51 [GordonD]
Antoine: We should attempt to inventory what we know is out there (in addition to output from use-case and vocabulary discussions)
22:27:21 [GordonD]
Karen: Any inventory is a moving target, and we should acknowledge that - but inventory useful
22:28:16 [charper]
antoine++ re: CKAN
22:28:40 [edsu]
antoine: would be good to have ww walk us through adding a package to ckan on a telecon
22:29:40 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
22:29:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html antoine
22:31:05 [antoine]
ACTION: Kai and Ed to curate citations cluster for end of december
22:32:03 [antoine]
ACTION: Mark (and someone else) to curate digital objects cluster for end of december
22:32:20 [antoine]
ACTION: Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data cluster for end of december
22:32:39 [antoine]
ACTION: Jeff and Alexander to curate authority data cluster for end of december
22:32:55 [antoine]
ACTION: Antoine and Michael to curate vocabulary alignment cluster for end of december
22:33:02 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
22:33:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html antoine
22:34:55 [antoine]
rrsagent, bye
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-actions.rdf :
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: for each use case champion: on the Vocabularies page, link to each URL use case that uses it [1]
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-irc#T19-10-39
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Karen and Emma to curate archive cluster for end of december [2]
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-irc#T22-18-02
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Kai and Ed to curate citations cluster for end of december [3]
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-irc#T22-31-05
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark (and someone else) to curate digital objects cluster for end of december [4]
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-irc#T22-32-03
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data cluster for end of december [5]
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-irc#T22-32-20
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeff and Alexander to curate authority data cluster for end of december [6]
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-irc#T22-32-39
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Antoine and Michael to curate vocabulary alignment cluster for end of december [7]
22:34:55 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/23-lld-irc#T22-32-55