14:47:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov-xg
14:47:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/22-prov-xg-irc
14:47:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:47:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov-xg
14:47:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 98765
14:47:33 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
14:47:34 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
14:47:34 <trackbot> Date: 22 October 2010
14:47:49 <Luc> Zakim, this will be inc_provxg
14:47:49 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
14:48:53 <Luc> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-prov/2010Oct/0003.html
14:49:05 <Luc>  chair: Yolanda Gil
14:49:12 <Luc> Scribe: Luc Moreau
14:49:19 <Luc> ScribeNick: Luc
14:49:26 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public
14:52:16 <YolandaGil> YolandaGil has joined #prov-xg
14:52:24 <YolandaGil> thanks Luc!!
14:52:39 <Luc> hi yolanda
14:54:27 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov-xg
14:55:17 <ssahoo2> ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg
14:56:05 <Zakim> INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has now started
14:56:13 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aaaa
14:56:35 <Luc> zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me
14:56:36 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
14:58:07 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov-xg
14:58:49 <Irini> Irini has joined #prov-xg
14:58:54 <Zakim> +??P1
14:59:02 <Zakim> +??P2
14:59:10 <pgroth> Zakim, P1 is pgroth
14:59:10 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not recognize a party named 'P1'
14:59:13 <Zakim> +[ISI]
14:59:15 <pgroth> Zakim, +??P1 is pgroth
14:59:15 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not recognize a party named '+??P1'
14:59:20 <pgroth> Zakim, +P1 is pgroth
14:59:20 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not recognize a party named '+P1'
14:59:26 <pgroth> Zakim, +?P1 is pgroth
14:59:26 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not recognize a party named '+?P1'
14:59:28 <YolandaGil> Zakim, [ISI] is really me
14:59:28 <Zakim> +YolandaGil; got it
14:59:42 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P1 is pgroth
14:59:42 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
14:59:45 <Paolo> zakim, ?P2 is really me
14:59:45 <Zakim> sorry, Paolo, I do not recognize a party named '?P2'
14:59:51 <Paolo> zakim, ??P2 is really me
14:59:51 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
14:59:53 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov-xg
15:00:15 <Zakim> +Irini
15:00:49 <Zakim> +??P5
15:00:57 <smiles> zakim, ??P5 is me
15:00:57 <Zakim> +smiles; got it
15:01:16 <DGarijo> DGarijo has joined #prov-xg
15:01:35 <Paulo> Paulo has joined #prov-xg
15:01:40 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov-xg
15:01:41 <jun> jun has joined #prov-xg
15:02:30 <Zakim> +??P9
15:02:39 <Zakim> + +1.915.603.aabb
15:02:51 <Zakim> +??P13
15:03:07 <jcheney> zakim, ??p13 is me
15:03:07 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
15:03:12 <Luc> zakim, who is here?
15:03:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, pgroth, Paolo (muted), YolandaGil, Irini, smiles (muted), ??P9, +1.915.603.aabb, jcheney
15:03:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see jun, jcheney, Paulo, DGarijo, smiles, Irini, Paolo, ssahoo2, pgroth, YolandaGil, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, trackbot
15:03:44 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aacc
15:04:00 <DGarijo> zakim, ??P9 is me
15:04:00 <Zakim> +DGarijo; got it
15:04:08 <Zakim> - +1.216.368.aacc
15:04:35 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aadd
15:04:50 <Paulo> zakim, +1.915.603.aabb is Paulo
15:04:50 <Zakim> +Paulo; got it
15:04:50 <Luc> Yolanda: discuss goals for a WG recommendation
15:05:13 <Zakim> +??P20
15:05:17 <jun> zakim, ??P20 is jun
15:05:17 <Zakim> +jun; got it
15:05:38 <Luc> Paolo: swpm workshop coming soon Nov 7th(?)
15:06:25 <Luc> yolanda: structure discussion in two topics
15:06:40 <Luc> yolanda: 1. goal, target, scope for WG
15:06:53 <Luc> 2yolanda: 2. specific deliverables
15:07:14 <YolandaGil> 1. What would be the objectives of the WG? a. define a provenance exchange language and protocol to publish and access provenance
15:07:15 <ssahoo2> SWPM Workshop at ISWC 2010: http://wiki.knoesis.org/index.php/SWPM-2010
15:07:47 <pgroth> there's lots of echos
15:07:49 <pgroth> echo
15:08:22 <jcheney> seems better now...
15:08:42 <pgroth> yeah
15:08:44 <YolandaGil> b. the scope of this language will be any web resource, not be just semantic web objects
15:08:57 <YolandaGil> c. the exchange language should be accessible, therefore it should be simple
15:09:32 <YolandaGil> d. it should allow for extensions (ie, species/profiles, integration of other more expressive/complementary vocabularies/frameworks) 
15:09:33 <Luc> yolanda: accessible to people who are not provenance experts
15:10:19 <Luc> yolanda: be able to integrate more expressive frameworks
15:10:29 <YolandaGil> e. the WG should produce an early draft (in 8 mo?) and end within a few months (in 18 mo?)
15:10:33 <Luc> yolanda: e.g. identity, signatures
15:11:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:12:19 <Luc> yolanda: these are the kinds of possible goals that have been brought up recently. Maybe there are others?
15:12:20 <Christine> Christine has joined #prov-xg
15:12:41 <jcheney> +q
15:12:44 <Paulo> q+
15:12:53 <smiles> i agree that those goals sound good
15:14:09 <Paolo> q+
15:14:30 <Luc> James: goals seem reasonable, we should point out there may be other issues not in the remit of this WG(e.g. deep web)
15:15:13 <Luc> James: accessibility: getting users (lifescience, bioinformatics, others) involved to leverage their experience 
15:15:22 <jcheney> q-
15:15:38 <Luc> Paulo: in general agrees with the goals
15:15:58 <Luc> Paulo: accessibility: make provenance ubiquitous
15:17:12 <Luc> Paulo: beyond the provenance research community
15:17:28 <Luc> Paulo: goal must include scalability
15:17:39 <YolandaGil> ack Paolo
15:17:44 <YolandaGil> ack Paulo
15:18:13 <Luc> Paolo: strong focus on modeling provenance, not so much in engineering of provenance
15:18:14 <pgroth> +q
15:18:35 <Luc> Paolo: can we confirm engineering is out of scope (despite being interesting problem)
15:19:14 <Luc> Paolo: sees scope beyond Web resources, e.g. scientific data, not on the web
15:19:28 <jun> q+
15:19:40 <YolandaGil>  ack Paul
15:19:44 <Paolo> q-
15:20:15 <Luc> Paul: accessibility means "getting at the provenance", not "easy to understand"????
15:20:16 <ssahoo2> Agree with Paolo on broadening the scope to include all types of resources especially scientific data
15:20:27 <Paulo> q+
15:20:36 <Luc> Yolanda: does not require steep learning curve
15:21:08 <Luc> Paul: accessibility is often understood as accessibility to disabled persons
15:21:27 <Paolo> @pgroth: I agree that it is out of scope -- although that's where the research is IMHO
15:21:31 <Luc> Paul: we don't know enough about engineering, so we can't standardize it. So, out of scope.
15:21:59 <Luc> Jun: provenance easy to learn, easy to access
15:22:49 <Luc> Jun: why restrict to web resources, why not physical objects?
15:22:57 <ssahoo2> Jun: What about digital representation of physical objects?
15:23:38 <Paolo> q+
15:23:45 <Luc> Yolanda: should the framework be applicable to a warehouse not on the web for instance?
15:24:35 <Luc> Jun: yes, it would be better to broaden up the scope
15:25:24 <Luc> Yolanda: what is challenging for data create off the web?
15:26:50 <Luc> Satya: maybe we can impose engineering constraint, e.g. having a URL/URI?
15:26:53 <Paolo> I'm not jumping in but my question is, is the web qualification necessary at all?
15:28:06 <jcheney> I think it would be good to keep a narrow focus, while leaving open the possibility of applications to non-Web artifacts, maybe via a vocabulary or extension...
15:28:14 <Luc> Jun: there are cases of applications without web connectivity, without uri, etc, they could not use a provenance standard that focuses on provenance of data on the web.
15:28:19 <Paolo> @yolanda: yes
15:29:12 <Luc> Jun: why did OPMers define artifacts to include physical objects?
15:29:39 <ssahoo2> Sorry I have to leave now
15:29:40 <Luc> Paolo: can we simply just drop the word "Web" in "Web resource"?
15:30:06 <Zakim> - +1.216.368.aadd
15:30:34 <pgroth> q-
15:30:35 <Paolo> q-
15:30:40 <YolandaGil> ack jun
15:30:41 <jun> q-
15:30:47 <YolandaGil> ack Paulo
15:32:26 <Luc> Paulo:  PDF, an example of something fairly complex, but universally usable. Are we going to promise simplicity? Risky
15:32:51 <pgroth> +q
15:33:00 <Luc> Paulo: concern about promising something easy to learn
15:33:39 <Luc> YOlanda: easy to use (for something easy), but may require complexity for complex issues
15:33:45 <Luc> Yolanda: low entry point
15:34:36 <Luc> Paul: adoption, if  "easy" to use
15:34:59 <pgroth> q-
15:35:17 <Luc> Paul: we should make it as simple as possible, for adoption
15:35:40 <Luc> Daniel: the goals are OK
15:36:21 <Luc> Irini: accessibility for broader w3c public is important 
15:36:49 <Luc> Irini: otherwise goals are fine
15:37:09 <Luc> Christine: where possible, standards should be as simple as possible
15:37:41 <Luc> Yloanda: can we talk about the timeline?
15:38:16 <Luc> Ylolanda: should we try to put something out within a year? or instead, should we go for two years, and sort lots of things out
15:39:19 <pgroth> +q
15:39:20 <Luc> Yolanda: what can we realisatically do (this should take into consideration our availability and ability to contribute to a WG)?
15:39:30 <smiles> q+
15:39:30 <YolandaGil> ack pgroth
15:39:54 <Luc> Paul: we should aim at something simple, as fast as possible
15:40:19 <Luc> Paul: 1 year pushing hard, 18 months max to get a standard out
15:40:24 <Christine> +1
15:40:30 <DGarijo> +1
15:40:53 <Zakim> -Luc
15:40:58 <Luc> Paul: people are waiting for somebody with authorithy
15:41:10 <Luc> I was kicked out, dialing in!
15:41:13 <YolandaGil> ack smiles
15:41:48 <Paolo> q+
15:41:56 <Paulo> q+
15:42:00 <Zakim> +Luc
15:42:06 <Luc> back
15:42:18 <Luc> q+
15:42:37 <Luc> Simon: publicize group as soon as early
15:43:25 <Luc> Paolo: perception is important
15:44:21 <Luc> Paolo: there is core and extensions, others can work on extensions afterwards
15:44:44 <pgroth> there can be new working groups
15:44:55 <pgroth> not just one right
15:45:10 <Paolo> q-
15:45:28 <Luc> Paulo: my concern is setting an aggressive schedule, and we meet a roadblock
15:46:00 <Paolo> @paul -- yes if there is enough participation, but I'm not sure about W3C's attitude to a proliferation of groups on very similar topics
15:46:10 <pgroth> no but a follow on
15:46:18 <pgroth> instead of a 5 year thing
15:46:19 <Luc> Paulo: how woudl the group recover from these roadblocks if we have such a tight schedule
15:46:39 <Paolo> yes I would just suggesting a model with milestones + overlap
15:46:46 <Luc> Paulo: 2 years, but intermediate outcomes necessary
15:48:10 <Luc> Yolanda: we need to ask Yvan about what would happen then, can we extend the lifetime?
15:48:37 <pgroth> +q
15:49:58 <YolandaGil> ack Paulo
15:50:03 <YolandaGil> ack Luc
15:51:36 <pgroth> 18 years--- yes :-)
15:51:57 <Luc> Paulo: concern is that timetable presssure could lead to undesirable compromise
15:52:41 <Luc> Luc: we need to know what the minimum timescale is for the W3C to push a document from FPWD to Rec (assuming no roadblock)
15:53:17 <DGarijo> +q
15:53:30 <Luc> Luc: supportive of tight timetable, but also suggest what we will realistically do 
15:53:34 <YolandaGil> Luc: can you mute yourself?
15:54:37 <Luc> Jun: new members may join, and this may extent the lifetime. Hence 18months is a good compromise.
15:54:43 <Paolo> q+
15:54:56 <Luc> Yolanda: do you see a pressing need for the WG to produce something early?
15:56:50 <Luc> James: we need to talk to people who have done this
15:57:01 <Paolo> in case we run out of time: a practical reason for urgency is that projects that have a provenance component in them and are beginning now, need to plan accurately where to direct their resources
15:57:29 <Luc> James: WG for 2 years, does not mean no deliverables for 2 years
15:57:37 <Paolo> and a moving target doesn't help -- but a simple indication of a clear direction is enough, there is no need to wait for the W3C to put its stamp on it
15:59:22 <Luc> Irini: W3C process involves public comments, which have to incorporated in new drafts
15:59:24 <smiles> @paolo i agree, though the goal (a) of the WG is for provenance *exchange* language - is that an answer to what these projects are looking for, or are they trying to encode provenance internally?
15:59:54 <Luc> Irini: XQuery too 8 years!
16:00:16 <Irini> Irini has left #prov-xg
16:00:34 <Paolo> @James: both, really -- we don't want to start encoding in a way that locks us in later...
16:01:11 <Luc> yolanda would you be able to terminate the scribing?
16:01:13 <Zakim> -YolandaGil
16:01:15 <Zakim> -pgroth
16:01:16 <Zakim> -Irini
16:01:16 <Zakim> -smiles
16:01:17 <Zakim> -DGarijo
16:01:17 <Zakim> -Paolo
16:01:19 <Zakim> -Paulo
16:01:20 <Zakim> -jun
16:01:22 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:01:37 <Zakim> -jcheney
16:01:43 <Zakim> -Luc
16:01:44 <Zakim> INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has ended
16:01:46 <Zakim> Attendees were Luc, YolandaGil, pgroth, Paolo, Irini, smiles, jcheney, +1.216.368.aacc, DGarijo, +1.216.368.aadd, Paulo, jun, [IPcaller]
16:01:53 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public
16:02:00 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/22-prov-xg-minutes.html Luc
16:02:16 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon
16:02:16 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:02:16 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:02:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:02:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/22-prov-xg-minutes.html trackbot
16:02:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:02:18 <RRSAgent> I see no action items