22:00:01 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y 22:00:01 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/20-html-a11y-irc 22:00:45 zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(A11Y) 22:00:45 ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM already started 22:00:54 +Judy 22:00:58 zakim, call janina 22:00:58 ok, janina; the call is being made 22:00:59 +Janina 22:01:14 rrsagent, make log public 22:02:47 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon 22:02:47 Chair: John_Foliot 22:02:47 agenda: this 22:02:47 agenda+ Identify Scribe 22:02:48 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open 22:02:50 agenda+ Status Updates & Brief Reports; User Reqs; Added Spec Text; Open Subtitles; Etc. 22:02:52 agenda+ Media Related Bugs--Status & Next Steps 22:02:54 agenda+ Technical Requirements Prioritizations and Dependencies 22:02:56 +http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Media_Accessibility_Checklist 22:02:58 agenda+ WCAG Mapping -- Sean 22:03:00 agenda+ Must/Should/May Categorizations -- John 22:03:02 agenda+ Handling Multiple Tracks http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Oct/0520.html 22:03:04 agenda+ Candidate Formats Review Preparation: WebSRT; TTML; Others? 22:03:06 agenda+ Other Business? 22:03:08 agenda+ next meeting 22:03:10 agenda+ be done 22:03:12 +silvia 22:03:19 zakim, next item 22:03:19 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina] 22:03:27 scribe: janina 22:03:39 zakim, next item 22:03:39 agendum 1 was just opened, janina 22:03:45 zakim, close item 1 22:03:45 agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed 22:03:46 I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 22:03:48 2. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina] 22:03:52 zakim, next item 22:03:52 agendum 2. "Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open" taken up [from janina] 22:04:08 zakim, who's here? 22:04:08 On the phone I see danielR, Eric_Carlson, Judy, Janina, silvia 22:04:09 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, JF, silvia, MikeSmith, sideshow, trackbot 22:04:39 zakim, danielR is John_Foliot 22:04:39 +John_Foliot; got it 22:05:46 Action 54 needs to be closed. Janina will do. 22:05:46 Sorry, couldn't find user - 54 22:06:00 close ACTION-54 22:06:00 ACTION-54 Follow up that NCAM files can be used in HTML5 testbed closed 22:06:14 Also, close action 65. 22:06:27 close ACTION-65 22:06:27 ACTION-65 Will review threads on getting spec text in closed 22:06:29 zakim, next item 22:06:29 agendum 3. "Status Updates & Brief Reports; User Reqs; Added Spec Text; Open Subtitles; Etc." taken up [from janina] 22:06:56 zakim, mute me 22:06:56 silvia should now be muted 22:07:05 Did that help? 22:10:20 zakim, unmute me 22:10:20 silvia should no longer be muted 22:10:42 silvia: between janina and me, we've covered things in user reqs and in email 22:10:55 janina: also, user reqs will move under html chairs guidance to close soon 22:11:26 zakim, mute me 22:11:26 silvia should now be muted 22:12:43 janina: re spec text as we requested -- our request for tech neutrality not met 22:12:49 eric: think we should file bugs 22:17:49 Conversation proceeds with our concern that W3C not publish anything with technology specific solutions, especially not in a heartbeat. 22:18:50 zakim, unmute me 22:18:50 silvia should no longer be muted 22:18:59 q? 22:19:11 q+ 22:20:24 Janina will forward her mail to Paul to Judy. This was the mail that expressed concern about publishing with tech specific solutions. 22:20:35 We're unclear what is included in heartbeat. 22:21:07 Sam's message came to Janina and also to public-html. Janina forwarded it to public-a11y-html 22:21:44 Judy will lead on anything we might still be able to do about publication. 22:22:00 Silvia: Should we discuss changes on list? 22:22:02 John: Yes 22:22:33 Silvia: Very keen for input esp from Philip and Eric 22:24:50 John: So, we're looking to make spec tech neutral? That's first? 22:25:08 Janina I have an rcs of changes 22:25:11 Silvia you are breaking up badly 22:25:31 zakim, mute me 22:25:31 silvia should now be muted 22:25:58 my proposal is to start the discussion of what bugs we should report on the mailing list 22:26:02 zakim, unmute me 22:26:02 silvia should no longer be muted 22:26:18 It was me 22:26:48 Silvia: Proposes we discuss on list of the changes we want. 22:27:15 Silvia: Still want to ref websrt as a baseline, though it needn't be the only implemented one, want to keep it in timeline though. 22:28:15 John: Concern that websrt undefined in w3c space 22:28:27 John: Had understood that we wanted to be fully agnostic 22:28:48 Judy: Strong +1 on that 22:29:17 Eric: Minor correction -- WebSRT is well spec'd at both w3c and what at this point 22:29:33 judy: also unaware that it's spec'd in w3c space 22:29:49 eric: parsing is precise as in the html spec 22:29:55 -Eric_Carlson 22:30:16 +Eric_Carlson 22:30:25 judy: but this is a leap, if the group working on media hasn't agreed on it. 22:30:41 -Janina 22:30:49 zakim, call janina 22:30:49 ok, janina; the call is being made 22:30:51 +Janina 22:31:23 OK, I'm supposedly back, but I have no audio. Trying again ... 22:31:26 zakim, drop janina 22:31:26 Janina is being disconnected 22:31:28 -Janina 22:31:38 zakim, mute me 22:31:38 silvia should now be muted 22:31:40 zakim, call janina 22:31:40 ok, janina; the call is being made 22:31:42 +Janina 22:32:06 Argh, still no audio! 22:32:09 zakim, drop janina 22:32:09 Janina is being disconnected 22:32:10 -Janina 22:33:45 Trying to dial in, but still have no audio! 22:33:52 zakim, drop janina 22:33:52 sorry, janina, I do not see a party named 'janina' 22:33:58 zakim, call janina 22:33:58 ok, janina; the call is being made 22:33:59 +Janina 22:34:39 I'm back ... 22:34:43 zakim, unmute me 22:34:43 silvia should no longer be muted 22:34:59 John: Silvia, you wanted to see something from websrt remain, can it be made agnostic? 22:35:08 Silvia: I think that's a misunderstanding 22:35:35 Silvia: we need a baseline codec -- we need this for external text formats 22:36:25 silvia: all browser discussion i've had in the pst months suggest that websrt, while it needs improvements, is not a bad format for baseline and lots of people are looking at implementing it. 22:36:39 Silvia: it would be bad if it were the only format we're lookikng to implement 22:36:54 Judy: But that's exactly the concern, we shouldn't implement something we haven't consensed 22:37:09 Eric: agree we need a req for baseline, but the decision needs to come out of the broader wg 22:38:05 eric: it's really important that browser vendors can start implementing now to identify issues, and that's orthogonal to what ends up being spec'd 22:38:44 Judy: So, we need it to gain knwledge. Are we OK that it won't confuse people? 22:39:10 eric: we should remove references from the spec, and the html-wg needs to decide as the wider group on what to use as a baseline 22:39:33 silvia: you're right. i've changed me mind. I'm confusing trial implementations with what's in the spec 22:39:57 john: if it's to be a spec we look at, it does need to be in w3c space 22:40:19 eric: no issue with that 22:41:03 silvia: propose we get websrt completely out of the w3c spec 22:41:22 silvia: then a separate doc that proposes websrt, so we can discuss it fully independently of any other contender 22:41:36 judy: can i ask for confirmation that we're all on the same page? 22:41:50 judy: it sounds like we all want refs to websrt out 22:43:22 proposal: 1. remove all websrt reference from http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/ - probably needs bug reports; 2. evaluate http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/websrt.html independently as a possible baseline codec (not sure if 2. needs to go into W3C space for the evaluation to take place) 22:43:23 janina: +1 22:43:36 john: believe all of us on the call agree 22:45:01 s/codec/format/ 22:45:38 Judy has joined #html-a11y 22:46:06 eric: whatever we suggest should be clear that there should be no ref to a format, whether tdml or websrt, because there hasn't been a decision 22:46:18 s/tdml/ttml/ 22:46:26 zakim, mute me 22:46:26 silvia should now be muted 22:46:34 eric: not sure it's important to move a description of websrt into w3c space at this point 22:46:41 eric: what's important is to open a discussion 22:46:50 +1 on eric 22:47:18 zakim, next item 22:47:18 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina 22:47:24 q? 22:47:44 ack 22:47:49 zakim, next item 22:47:49 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina 22:47:58 zakim, ack sil 22:47:58 unmuting silvia 22:47:59 I see no one on the speaker queue 22:48:07 zakim, next item 22:48:07 agendum 4. "Media Related Bugs--Status & Next Steps" taken up [from janina] 22:48:11 zakim, mute me 22:48:11 silvia should now be muted 22:48:31 john: I've filed several bugs, Ian pointed them all on me 22:48:40 john: filed to make the filing deadline 22:50:18 janina: the clear audio is a misunderstanding. clear audio is only created at production. the spec and user agents are not implicated 22:50:19 Zakim, call Mike-goog 22:50:19 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made 22:50:21 +Mike 22:50:22 eric: fully agree 22:51:05 john: also a bug on pausing audio ... 22:51:30 zakim, unmute me 22:51:30 silvia should no longer be muted 22:51:56 Silvia: there's an identical bug -- so we have duplicated bug 22:51:58 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10941 22:52:05 -Eric_Carlson 22:52:17 Silvia: suggest closing the later as a duplicate of the former 22:52:39 +Eric_Carlson 22:54:01 zakim, mute me 22:54:01 silvia should now be muted 22:54:08 john: allow user 22:54:26 pausing the bugzilla discussion now that Mike has joined re heartbeat spec publication 22:54:59 Judy: introducing our understanding that spec text now added but without neutralizing tech specific solutions 22:55:06 judy: is it in the heartbeat? 22:56:13 judy: It would be a significant problem for us if that is so, because it's not our consensed direction, and would have negative effects on our public veracity 22:56:26 davidb has joined #html-a11y 22:56:32 http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html 22:57:47 Thu Oct 14 22:31:55 2010 UTC (6 days ago) by ihickson <- when the change occurred 22:57:48 Janina waves at Dave 22:58:13 Judy: we very much want not to have tech specific solutions in the heartbeat 22:58:19 Revision http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html?rev=1.4510&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup 22:58:42 http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html?rev=1.4514&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup 23:00:41 I've lost audio! 23:00:41 zakim, who's here? 23:00:41 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Judy, Janina, silvia (muted), Mike, Eric_Carlson 23:00:43 On IRC I see Judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, JF, silvia, MikeSmith, sideshow, trackbot 23:00:48 I'm back! 23:01:20 Ah, must be packet loss here -- I'm gone again 23:01:39 Mike: Not my decision, unfortunately. Need to contact chairs on this. 23:02:54 q+ 23:03:02 Judy: Are we willing to not have these media sections at all, if that means we cannot get tech neutral into this heartbeat? 23:03:05 General ascent 23:03:21 Judy: seems the reversion shouldn't delay publication? 23:03:40 q- 23:03:56 Mike: They will insist that changes need discussion 23:04:09 Judy: But it seems to us that a change has gone that didn't get discussion 23:05:13 q+ 23:05:28 zakim, ack me 23:05:28 unmuting silvia 23:05:29 I see no one on the speaker queue 23:08:06 Silvia: noting that unrolling one day would do it 23:08:14 Mike: that's possible 23:09:06 Revision http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html?rev=1.4509&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup 23:09:28 Mike: So are we ok with 15409? 23:09:52 judy: would there be unrelated changes that would be lost with surhc a revision? Or is it only our part? 23:10:06 s/15409/1.4509/g 23:12:20 revision 1.4509 has no mention of WebSRT and is from Oct 14 23:14:48 MikeSmith: this was my mistake to begin with 23:14:49 zakim, mute me 23:14:49 silvia should now be muted 23:15:22 MikeSmith: I should not have used the 1.4514 revision to begin with, should have rolled by to a previous rev 23:16:01 MikeSmith: I will roll back to the Oct 12 state 23:19:44 Mike: Actually rolling back to 14494 as it's the version that was prep'd following the decision to go heartbeat 23:21:36 Thanks, Mike! 23:21:43 John: returning to bugs 23:21:54 John: also a bug to make alternate versions visible 23:22:25 john: do we know it's in the spec? 23:22:27 silence 23:22:30 John: I'll check 23:30:01 q+ 23:30:09 zakim, ack me 23:30:09 unmuting silvia 23:30:10 I see no one on the speaker queue 23:32:15 zakim, mute me 23:32:15 silvia should now be muted 23:33:39 -John_Foliot 23:33:40 cheers 23:33:40 -Eric_Carlson 23:33:42 -silvia 23:33:45 -Janina 23:33:47 -Judy 23:33:51 Zakim, drop Mike 23:33:51 Mike is being disconnected 23:33:53 WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM has ended 23:33:54 Attendees were Eric_Carlson, Judy, Janina, silvia, John_Foliot, Mike 23:49:45 rrsagent, make minutes 23:49:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/20-html-a11y-minutes.html janina