IRC log of CSS on 2010-10-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:08:42 [RRSAgent]
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15:08:42 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:08:48 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:08:48 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 52 minutes
15:08:53 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:15:49 [kennyluck]
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15:16:51 [sylvaing]
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15:48:20 [alexmog]
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15:54:33 [oyvind]
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15:55:05 [dsinger_]
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15:55:59 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:06 [Zakim]
15:56:16 [smfr]
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15:56:27 [smfr]
ha ha
15:57:27 [Zakim]
15:57:36 [jdaggett]
zakim, mute me
15:57:36 [Zakim]
jdaggett should now be muted
15:57:40 [dsinger_]
Zakim, this is style
15:57:40 [Zakim]
dsinger_, this was already Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
15:57:42 [Zakim]
ok, dsinger_; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
15:58:00 [Zakim]
15:58:06 [jdaggett]
15:58:10 [glazou]
hi jdaggett
15:58:19 [glazou]
got your email just had no time to answer yet
15:58:23 [glazou]
hi dsinger_
15:58:26 [jdaggett]
enjoying your strikes?
15:58:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.253.307.aaaa
15:58:57 [Zakim]
15:59:00 [glazou]
jdaggett: only 1/4th of tank in my car...
15:59:04 [Zakim]
15:59:06 [jdaggett]
15:59:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aabb
15:59:12 [Zakim]
15:59:12 [kojiishi]
zakim, +??P8 is me
15:59:12 [TabAtkins_]
Zakim, aabb is me.
15:59:13 [Zakim]
sorry, kojiishi, I do not recognize a party named '+??P8'
15:59:15 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins_; got it
15:59:38 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is arronei
15:59:38 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
15:59:43 [Zakim]
15:59:59 [jdaggett]
16:00:38 [Zakim]
16:00:45 [kojiishi]
zakim, ipcaller is me
16:00:45 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
16:01:42 [glazou]
np dsinger_
16:02:15 [Zakim]
16:04:12 [glazou]
probably my first cold this year...
16:04:58 [Zakim]
16:05:15 [jdaggett]
zakim, who is noisy
16:05:18 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is noisy', jdaggett
16:05:33 [Zakim]
16:05:37 [jdaggett]
zakim, who is noisy?
16:05:47 [Zakim]
jdaggett, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (60%), Bert (5%), TabAtkins_ (35%), fantasai (69%)
16:05:47 [TabAtkins_]
ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
16:05:51 [dsinger_]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:06:02 [Zakim]
dsinger_, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (4%), TabAtkins_ (26%)
16:06:12 [Zakim]
16:06:14 [ChrisL]
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16:06:41 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: First agenda item is CSS 2.1.
16:06:48 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: I see we ahve multiple implementation reports
16:06:54 [Zakim]
16:07:00 [dethbakin]
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16:07:02 [Zakim]
16:07:06 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: Peter is aggregating the results, but some are from RC1 and RC2.
16:07:10 [Zakim]
16:07:18 [dethbakin]
Zakim, Apple has me
16:07:18 [Zakim]
+dethbakin; got it
16:07:22 [Zakim]
16:07:23 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Most tests didn't change between, so I have a script that's grandfathering RC1 results that are still valid.
16:07:34 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: Any idea of the number of tests passed by two impls?
16:07:42 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: No idea until I finish combining all of the IRs.
16:07:46 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:07:46 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:08:00 [Zakim]
16:08:08 [TabAtkins_]
Craps, one sec.
16:08:28 [glazou]
waiting for you TabAtkins_
16:08:33 [sylvaing]
ScribeNick: sylvaing
16:08:40 [Zakim]
16:08:45 [fantasai]
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16:08:51 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:08:59 [fantasai]
arronei: I updated maybe 100 cases or so
16:09:00 [sylvaing]
arronei: a large set of updates came in; about 100 cases
16:09:12 [fantasai]
arronei: Now we have a lot of feedback from IR coming in
16:09:20 [fantasai]
dbaron: I reported 494 tests as invalid
16:09:34 [fantasai]
arronei: Not all of those are actually invalid. I have feedback on why they're not invalid
16:09:45 [fantasai]
arronei: But I'll send that feedback in as a group in a bit
16:09:50 [fantasai]
dbaron: 496
16:10:01 [fantasai]
glazou: So let's wait for Peter's results and arronei's updates
16:10:17 [fantasai]
arronei: I'm concerned about other updates, from boris and gerard and fantasai. No idea how those are tracking
16:10:27 [fantasai]
dbaron: Do we have a mechanism for tracking which errors are in which tests?
16:10:31 [fantasai]
arronei: that's kinda tricky
16:10:37 [dbaron]
s/are in which tests/are in whose tests/
16:10:50 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: We do have a list that maps filenames to their location in the source tree.
16:10:58 [oyvind] has some sort of grouping
16:11:01 [fantasai]
16:11:22 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: That should show who is responsible for the tests.
16:11:55 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: If it's in "approved", it's us as the WG's responsibility to maintain the tests. If it's in a contributor's directory, we can find out who's responsible.
16:12:12 [fantasai]
dbaron: The other thing is, when arron has responses, I'm probably going to have responses to his responses. So it's better to send them out sooner
16:12:24 [fantasai]
arronei: Well, there's a lot of duplicates. So I'm trying to group those together as much as possible.
16:12:50 [fantasai]
arronei: That's part of the reason I want to publish on Friday. Even if I'm not done with everything, at least I get all the edits in asap
16:13:12 [fantasai]
arronei: I think it's better to get releases out faster, even if not all edits are in. We'll have smaller updates instead of larger ones.
16:13:47 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: If I don't have to actually fix tests before I publish (because I don't know how long it'll take to finish mine), publishing takes a couple of hours, so it's deifnitely something we can do on Friday.
16:14:00 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: If we do the publish with the understanding that some errors will still be standing in the test suite.
16:14:21 [fantasai]
arronei: How about we talk on Friday and see where we are, then either publish Friday or next Tuesday
16:14:27 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS2.1 edits
16:14:28 [jdaggett]
unmute me
16:14:34 [jdaggett]
zakim, unmute
16:14:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'unmute', jdaggett
16:14:35 [fantasai]
zakim, unmute jdaggett
16:14:35 [Zakim]
jdaggett should no longer be muted
16:14:38 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute jdaggett
16:14:39 [Zakim]
jdaggett was not muted, glazou
16:14:40 [glazou]
16:15:02 [fantasai]
jdaggett: There are a number of places where the spec has changed significantly, e.g. the table of bolder/lighter mappings
16:15:07 [fantasai]
jdaggett: And that information is not public.
16:15:20 [fantasai]
jdaggett: I wanted to know if we can take whatever edits we have so far and make a publication of that?
16:15:34 [fantasai]
Bert: We'll have a last call in 2 weeks, after TPAC. Why can't we wait a little bit more?
16:15:51 [ChrisL]
zakim, unmute me
16:15:51 [Zakim]
ChrisL should no longer be muted
16:16:12 [fantasai]
Bert: All the edits we have so far will be done by TPAC, so just after TPAC. If we decide on more edits at TPAC, then it will take longer
16:16:20 [ChrisL]
there is a lot of time in 'after'. 'soon after' is better
16:16:20 [fantasai]
jdaggett: It's hard to have discussions about things that are not in the public spec
16:16:41 [fantasai]
dbaron: I had to tell gtalbot that a test in the test suite was invalid because of edits that I could not describe because they were not anywhere public
16:17:24 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Why don't we say whatever edits we have in before TPAC, we try to put those out a few days after TPAC ends, and any extra edits will be dealt with later.
16:17:34 [fantasai]
Bert: It's possible. It takes a bit of time to publish.
16:17:49 [fantasai]
Bert: There's one other thing I don't like about that is that if we publish, it will be a normal WD, not even an LCWD.
16:17:58 [fantasai]
Bert: It's a bad signal to give to people wrt stability of the spec.
16:18:15 [fantasai]
jdaggett: But if we very quickly follow that with an LCWD, how is that different?
16:18:42 [fantasai]
glazou: Bert has a point. If we go back to normal WD, since we always said that we are almost ready to move along the REC track, it's a very bad signal.
16:18:57 [fantasai]
dbaron: Can we have the editor's draft public? Which would solve this problem?
16:19:12 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Yes, all the CSS3 drafts are publicly accessible, so that makes sense.
16:19:21 [dsinger]
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16:19:24 [fantasai]
Bert: well, all the errata are public. Everything that has been edited is public.
16:19:49 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: It's much much harder to diff the public CSS2.1 with the errata than it is to look at the edited draft.
16:19:51 [ChrisL]
CSS WG is supposed to work in public. CSS2.1 not being in public is a problem; at least its a short-lived problem.
16:20:01 [fantasai]
dbaron: The errata don't always have the exact text.
16:20:12 [fantasai]
glazou: Seems like everyone wants to have an updated public draft.
16:20:13 [ChrisL]
16:20:22 [fantasai]
glazou: Is there consensus to make the editor's draft public?
16:20:33 [fantasai]
glazou: Ok, let's do the edits into an editor's draft and make it public asap
16:20:52 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Publish CSS2.1 editor's draft publicly ASAP
16:20:56 [fantasai]
CSS2.1 Issues
16:21:00 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS2.1 Issues
16:21:10 [jdaggett]
zakim, mute me
16:21:10 [Zakim]
jdaggett should now be muted
16:21:36 [TabAtkins_]
16:21:38 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: After reading the extra feedback on the thread, I believe my text is still correct, I just needed to change the reference from "parent" to "containing block"
16:21:53 [karl]
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16:22:06 [fantasai]
glazou: I suppose we need some time to review and approve
16:22:21 [fantasai]
ACTION everyone: review 101 for next week
16:22:21 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - everyone
16:23:03 [fantasai]
16:23:15 [fantasai]
Issue 154
16:23:21 [fantasai]
arronei: Haven't worked on it, because focused on test suite
16:23:42 [fantasai]
arronei: Should be ready for next week
16:23:54 [fantasai]
glazou: Let's do that. Let's try to have all issues resolved before TPAC
16:23:56 [Zakim]
16:24:04 [fantasai]
Issue 159
16:24:09 [TabAtkins_]
16:24:10 [fantasai]
16:25:14 [fantasai]
arronei: MS has reviewed most of this, but haven't gotten all feedback from our margin collapsing dev yet
16:25:29 [fantasai]
dbaron: Haven't gotten to this since last week; pretty busy w/ implementation report
16:25:53 [fantasai]
glazou: Ok, deferred to next week. But please make sure you have reviewed the proposal for next conf call
16:25:56 [fantasai]
Issue 199
16:26:09 [howcome]
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16:26:18 [fantasai]
Tab sends an email
16:26:45 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: There was one particular question on the previous wording, so this is an update on the previous proposal
16:26:56 [fantasai]
glazou: so let's give a week to review this proposal
16:27:04 [glazou]
16:27:25 [fantasai]
glazou: Last question is, should overflow apply to inline table elements?
16:27:47 [fantasai]
dbaron: Yeah, there was a test in the test suite, it semed odd to apply to inline-table but not table
16:27:53 [fantasai]
Bert: Looks like an editing error
16:28:22 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: overflow applies to inline-table just like tables
16:28:28 [fantasai]
Topic: TPAC
16:28:32 [jdaggett]
zakim, unmute me
16:28:32 [Zakim]
jdaggett should no longer be muted
16:28:37 [ChrisL]
q+ to talk about fx taskforce (joint css svg) on Thursday
16:28:44 [fantasai]
glazou: Request from Janina to have a joint meeting to talk about accessibility
16:29:08 [fantasai]
ChrisL: We also discussed having an FX taskforce meeting.
16:29:22 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Turns out some people are arriving on Wed afternoon. So better to have it on Thursday
16:29:29 [fantasai]
sounds ok
16:29:39 [fantasai]
glazou will be away
16:29:51 [fantasai]
dbaron: Can we do it in the part of Thursday that doesn't overlap the AC meeting?
16:29:55 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Of course.
16:29:56 [ChrisL]
so thursday, not overlapping ac meeting.
16:30:13 [fantasai]
glazou: Let me give you a short report in France right now.
16:30:23 [fantasai]
glazou: Big big strikes
16:30:41 [fantasai]
glazou: I strongly recommend taking the train straight from CDG, not trying to go to the city
16:30:49 [fantasai]
glazou: Taxis may run out of fuel
16:30:54 [fantasai]
glazou: my own car is running out of fuel
16:31:01 [fantasai]
glazou: Some riots in Lyon, hopefully over by then
16:31:14 [fantasai]
glazou: This morning I checked all the arrivals from the US and India, no problem at all
16:31:23 [fantasai]
glazou: The trains were running normally, at least from Paris to Lyon
16:31:25 [smfr]
bring a donkey and cart
16:31:35 [fantasai]
glazou: I'm going to send reports to csswg mailing list when I have more information as we get closer to TPAC
16:32:30 [fantasai]
fantasai: Do we have a joint meeting scheduled with i18n?
16:32:31 [fantasai]
glazou: yes
16:32:46 [fantasai]
16:33:17 [fantasai]
glazou: We should start prioritizing our work for CSS3
16:33:49 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Are we moving css3-background to CR?
16:34:02 [fantasai]
fantasai: yes, working on LC DoC this week
16:34:08 [fantasai]
sylvaing: MS would like to discuss layout topics
16:34:25 [fantasai]
dbaron: Conditional on how much time I have to look at stuff before TPAC, might want to discuss CSS3 Values
16:35:05 [fantasai]
sylvaing: dbaron, we also had some discussions about what happens to the test suite and the spec after CSS2.1 goes to REC
16:35:24 [fantasai]
glazou: Anything else?
16:35:41 [fantasai]
glazou: If you have any extra agenda items, either send to csswg mailing list or add to wiki or both
16:35:47 [fantasai]
Topic: @font-face
16:35:49 [glazou]
16:36:25 [fantasai]
Beth: So, I think unfortunately we have not come up with any syntax that makes sense, but after thinking it over, if we think it's a real problem
16:36:37 [fantasai]
Beth: which I think we do, given the bug reports that have come in,
16:36:48 [fantasai]
Bether: We think there should be a way for authors to say what they would want to happen
16:36:49 [ChrisL]
having a descriptor puts all the capability with the author. a property would allow author control and user preference override
16:36:52 [ChrisL]
16:37:14 [fantasai]
Beth: A user preference also makes sense. Some users will hate the flash of unstyled content, and others will hate not seeing text
16:37:19 [fantasai]
Beth: I don't have any concrete suggestions
16:37:42 [fantasai]
glazou: Just to summarize, it's a fallback mechanism to say what happens if the font has not downloaded yet
16:37:52 [fantasai]
jdaggett: WebKit shows no content until the font loads
16:38:01 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Mozilla renders with the fallback font until the font loads
16:38:07 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Our current thinking is to put a timeout
16:38:24 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Initially you don't show anything, but after a certain time, you fall back to the fallback font
16:38:28 [howcome]
Opera has a user-setable timeout
16:38:32 [fantasai]
jdaggett: The question is what's the right timeout
16:38:41 [fantasai]
jdaggett: And in some cases this may cause a worse situation
16:38:45 [fantasai]
jdaggett: you get two flashes
16:39:02 [fantasai]
jdaggett: It's a tradeoff between readability and usability and not having these flashes
16:39:09 [ChrisL]
16:39:21 [fantasai]
glazou: howcome says they have a user-setable timeout
16:39:29 [ChrisL]
zakim, unmute me
16:39:29 [Zakim]
ChrisL was not muted, ChrisL
16:39:31 [fantasai]
jdaggett: My thought was to put it in a user-controllable setting
16:39:40 [howcome]
Indeed, it's a tradeoff. Complex equation with many variables.
16:39:45 [fantasai]
Beth: We would prefer an author control
16:40:01 [fantasai]
ChrisL: The problem is that the suggestion was a descriptor, which isn't author-overrideable
16:40:27 [fantasai]
ChrisL: There were two parts suggestion: you could say whether you wanted a blank or a fallback, and you could also set a timeout
16:40:40 [fantasai]
jdaggett: You could get fallback immediately by setting a zero timeout.
16:41:00 [fantasai]
jdaggett: The one thing about a property is that it doesn't make sense as something in the cascade.
16:41:27 [fantasai]
fantasai: Cascading it makes sense. Per-element doesn't make sense
16:41:31 [fantasai]
?: could set it on the root
16:41:38 [TabAtkins_]
16:42:28 [fantasai]
sylvain: I think it's weird to have that as a property
16:42:30 [ChrisL]
or you have a fast network, but are in Australia
16:42:45 [fantasai]
fantasai: The appropriate timeout will depend on the network
16:42:53 [ChrisL]
zakim, mute me
16:42:53 [Zakim]
ChrisL should now be muted
16:42:57 [fantasai]
fantasai: You'd want immediate fallback if you're on dialup
16:43:18 [fantasai]
sylvaing: It seems we don't have the implementation experience to design a property right now
16:43:30 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Do we need a property? Why not a UA setting?
16:43:39 [fantasai]
sylvaing: I don't think we've proved that we need a property instead of a UA setting.
16:43:55 [dsinger_]
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16:43:58 [fantasai]
jdaggett: You could make a rule that you have a timeout, but it's influenced whether there's any network activity happening at all
16:44:11 [fantasai]
jdaggett: if there's no reply to your font download request, no packets, then you fallback immediately
16:44:12 [howcome]
I support Sylvain (on this :)
16:44:19 [fantasai]
jdaggett: you can't do that with a timeout propert
16:44:20 [fantasai]
16:44:22 [ChrisL]
@timeout(torrents-on, 5s)
16:44:31 [fantasai]
glazou: Do you want a normative note?
16:44:41 [alexmog]
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16:44:46 [fantasai]
jdaggett: I think it makes sense to discuss this in the spec, but I'm not sure that it should be an author-controlled property
16:45:03 [fantasai]
Beth: I think we would still like an author-controlled property, but I recognize it's an odd thing
16:45:16 [fantasai]
Beth: We think that a user-controlled property isn't going to solve the problem for most users
16:45:29 [fantasai]
16:45:54 [fantasai]
Beth: I can see the author wanting to note that this font is critical to the page, but this other one is a nice-to-have
16:46:04 [dsinger_]
Maybe a 'temporary substitute' font indication from the source?
16:46:18 [fantasai]
Smfr: Could also control this via JavaScript
16:46:29 [bradk]
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16:46:32 [ChrisL]
zakim, unmute me
16:46:32 [Zakim]
ChrisL should no longer be muted
16:46:34 [fantasai]
Smfr: Add an even tfor font download
16:47:04 [fantasai]
jdaggett: might be a good idea independent of this issue
16:47:17 [dsinger_]
S/even tfor/event for/
16:47:24 [fantasai]
ChrisL: drawing with canvas is tricky, since you currently don't know when the font is there
16:47:38 [fantasai]
glazou: You also need an event to know the font is not loaded, could not be loaded
16:47:48 [fantasai]
or UA is waiting
16:47:55 [fantasai]
smfr: we have the same problem for images
16:48:07 [fantasai]
glazou: I think the two approaches are really interesting.
16:48:12 [fantasai]
glazou: Probably not something we're going to solve now
16:48:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.766.aacc
16:48:36 [fantasai]
glazou: Beth and ?, can you come up with something more concrete for tpac?
16:48:39 [fantasai]
16:48:45 [fantasai]
Topic: writing-mode
16:49:32 [fantasai]
glazou: Lots of messages from hyatt
16:50:00 [fantasai]
fantasai: I just need to work those comments into the spec as I draft it; nothing to discuss here today.
16:51:47 [jdaggett]
16:51:56 [glazou]
16:52:00 [fantasai]
jdaggett has concerns about the fact that logical properties are in the draft
16:52:07 [fantasai]
and that people think it will be approved by the CSSWG
16:52:17 [glazou]
aaah :)
16:52:35 [fantasai]
jdaggett: We shouldn't be representing these as anything that is stable or approved by the CSSWG
16:52:46 [howcome]
I share John's concerns on this.
16:52:55 [fantasai]
jdaggett: People are going off and implementing this with the idea that this is going to work into the later stage
16:53:10 [fantasai]
fantasai: So what do you want me to do?
16:53:59 [howcome]
I suggest removing that part of the spec for now, or add the other credible proposals as well and ask for feedback
16:54:20 [fantasai]
jdaggett: These have a lot of side effects on all properties, and there is not enough detail in the spec about these interactions
16:54:34 [fantasai]
16:54:50 [fantasai]
fantasai: obviously there are not enough details!
16:55:00 [Hixie]
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16:55:21 [jdaggett]
jdaggett: we should not be talking about this spec as something that is ready to go to candidate recommendation
16:55:38 [fantasai]
who is talking about this spec as something that is ready for CR?
16:56:00 [jdaggett]
jdaggett: the notes from the EPUB discussion
16:56:18 [fantasai]
Topic: multicol
16:56:45 [fantasai]
glazou: Discussion that if the columns are taller than the viewport, it is very awkward to read
16:56:45 [kojiishi]
notes from EPUB was updated since then
16:57:22 [fantasai]
glazou: The first proposal is to have a note saying that giving a higher height than the viewport to a multicol element provides accessibility/usability issues
16:57:46 [fantasai]
glazou: The second one is to add another control to have more control over the height of the multicol element
16:57:53 [ChrisL]
it would be nice to fix that for tables too
16:58:18 [fantasai]
sylvaing: We have the same issue with tables
16:58:34 [fantasai]
glazou: I would suggest a note, I will send to the mailing list, to make it clear
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16:59:02 [fantasai]
Bert: overflow on any element causes problems
16:59:19 [fantasai]
glazou: Tables and multicol are the ones where you have to scroll back and forth a lot
16:59:27 [fantasai]
glazou: Setting overflow is a decision from the author
16:59:59 [fantasai]
ACTION glazou: Propose note for multicol explaining the problem with column lengths longer than the viewport
16:59:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-269 - Propose note for multicol explaining the problem with column lengths longer than the viewport [on Daniel Glazman - due 2010-10-27].
17:00:36 [fantasai]
Tab will prepare his proposal and flexbox topics for discussion at TPAC
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17:00:39 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
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- +1.650.766.aacc
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disconnecting the lone participant, TabAtkins_, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
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Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
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Attendees were dsinger, jdaggett, glazou, +1.253.307.aaaa, smfr, +1.650.253.aabb, plinss, TabAtkins_, arronei, kojiishi, Bert, fantasai, sylvaing, David_Baron, dethbakin, ChrisL,
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... +1.650.766.aacc
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RRSAgent: make minutes
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I have made the request to generate fantasai
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RRSAgent: pointer
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