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15:38:17 <plinss> zakim, this will be style
15:38:17 <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 22 minutes
15:38:28 <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
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15:57:41 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:48 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
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15:59:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:26 <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft is JohnJansen
16:00:26 <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
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16:01:24 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:01:34 <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
16:01:34 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:01:52 <Zakim> + +1.617.650.aaaa
16:02:00 <kojiishi> Zakim, [IPcaller] is kojiishi
16:02:00 <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
16:02:02 <dethbakin> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:02:02 <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
16:02:06 <Zakim> +plinss
16:02:07 <Zakim> +David_Baron
16:02:51 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aabb
16:02:54 <TabAtkins_> zakim, aabb is me
16:02:54 <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
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16:04:43 <Zakim> +smfr
16:06:47 <Zakim> +Bert
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16:08:09 <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins_ 
16:08:21 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: Anything else on the agenda?
16:08:44 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: 2.1 Testsuite.
16:09:01 <TabAtkins_> arronei: We published RC2, there's been some feedback.
16:09:16 <TabAtkins_> arronei: Some progress on the updates.  Elika was planning to publish another update at the end of this week, I think.
16:09:51 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:09:53 <TabAtkins_> smfr: I'm ready to submit an impl report for Safari based on the Oct1 version.  Should I wait, or go ahead and submit?
16:10:04 <TabAtkins_> arronei: Go ahead and submit.  We'll send out a list of just the updates.
16:10:18 <TabAtkins_> arronei: There's maybe 20 updates so far.
16:10:41 <TabAtkins_> smfr: There's a lot of feedback on the list about tests which have problems.  Who's repsonsibility is that to roll up that feedback?
16:10:48 <TabAtkins_> arronei: Elika does that.
16:11:01 <TabAtkins_> arronei: I've been trying to update the MS tests as they get reported with problems.
16:11:14 <TabAtkins_> arronei: The next publish should have all the feedback done up to that point.
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16:12:02 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: The harness on the website didn't get updated to RC2, I suppose.
16:12:13 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: We'll wait for the next update to do that.
16:12:21 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: So, Implementation Reports.  
16:12:35 <TabAtkins_> smfr: Is the right thing to send it to the private or public list?
16:12:46 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: Whatever you're comfortable with.
16:13:49 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: While there are some tests that need to be done in HTML or XHTML, does it really make sense to do that entire testsuite twice?
16:14:01 <TabAtkins_> arronei: I have seen very few differences; maybe 2 or 3.
16:14:22 <TabAtkins_> arronei: So there is negligible benefit for the vendor, but for reports it probably doesn't matter for those handful of cases.
16:14:40 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: For our exit criteria, all I really care about is that it passes in HTML *or* XHTML.
16:15:00 <TabAtkins_> arronei: That's probably fine from a pure spec perspective, because passing in one proves that the spec can be implemented.
16:15:31 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
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16:16:43 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: So that's Google and Apple.  What about MS, Moz, Opera?
16:16:52 <TabAtkins_> arronei: MS already submitted and posted it.
16:16:57 <smfr> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/10/08/css-2-1-implementation-reports.aspx
16:17:03 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I sent a status update last week.
16:17:07 <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2010Oct/0051.html
16:17:36 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I think I'm down to 500 images left to check.  Then I'll be down to manual tests, which I'll probably just do in HTML.
16:19:42 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I think the big suite of background combinations could probably be done by just querying the OM.
16:19:48 <TabAtkins_> arronei: Yeah, potentially.
16:20:01 <dbaron> ... and test the interactive behavior without combinatorics.
16:20:09 <arronei> MS implementaion report: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS2.1/20101001/reports/
16:20:46 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: Do we believe that KHTML and Webkit are different enough to count as different?
16:20:58 <TabAtkins_> arronei: I see a lot of differences.
16:21:44 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: I think that Chrome and Safari are sufficiently close that they can't count as our two passing impls, but if Webkit and KHTML both pass, can it count?
16:22:08 <TabAtkins_> smfr: I don't think so - if they both pass, there's a good chance it's in shared code.
16:22:20 <TabAtkins_> arronei: But if Webkit passes and KHTML fails, that still counts as a pass, right?
16:22:41 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: Yeah, either one can pass and it's okay.  It's just when they agree that we'd count them as one.
16:23:12 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: And the results page on the web harness is starting to show something like what we need for the exit criteria.
16:23:16 <TabAtkins_> smfr: Link to the results page?
16:23:23 <plinss> http://test.csswg.org/harness/
16:23:29 <plinss> http://test.csswg.org/harness/results?s=CSS21_HTML&o=0
16:23:35 <plinss> http://test.csswg.org/harness/results?s=CSS21_XHTML&o=0
16:24:14 <TabAtkins_> smfr: How are you dealing with the different versions of Webkit, etc.?
16:24:26 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: Right now, if I get a pass in any version of Webkit, Moz, etc. I count it as a pass.
16:24:59 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: Later I'll mark them some as flaky if there are mixed passes and fails, for manual verification.
16:25:28 <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: How generic is that?  It would be useful for other CSS3 modules.
16:25:37 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: completely generic; it can be used for any thing.
16:25:51 <smfr> i hope the user-agent parsing is good :)
16:26:25 <ChrisL> cool so we can use this for modules later
16:27:46 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: For Issue 101, the mailing list activity just died down yesterday, so I'll synthesize all of that soon.
16:27:54 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: TPAC, we don't have a lot on the agenda yet.
16:28:05 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I'll have several drafts I want to talk about by then.
16:28:09 <ChrisL> request for an FX taskforce joint meeting
16:28:13 <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2010
16:29:15 <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: W3C staff is starting to count up people and plan accordingly, so anyone who's coming needs to register now.
16:29:39 <TabAtkins_> Bert: I've been trying to find people involved in IPDF who could come.  Haven't found anyone yet, but I'm still trying.
16:30:04 <TabAtkins_> Bert: I guess most important is the Writing Mode, which is alreayd on the agenda, but they're also interested in the text module.
16:31:00 <ChrisL> topic: css3 color
16:31:04 <ChrisL> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-color/issues-lc-2008.html
16:31:23 <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: I updated the Disposition of Comments just before the call.
16:32:10 <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: We're in better shape.  Several rejects turned to accept, and a few new comments we've gottne accepted. I think it's in good shape, and we can justify our remaining rejects.
16:32:43 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Color/20081014/reports/CR-ImpReport.html
16:32:57 <TabAtkins_> For 6, I think we can justify the reject, because we have no impls.
16:33:19 <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: I'd like to put in a new report for Opera, because of changed results.
16:33:49 <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: We could go with what we have, but I think it's fairly easy to update our results.
16:34:00 <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: We have two passes for each test, which is the important thing.
16:34:20 <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Request PR for Color level 3.
16:34:59 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: Back to 2.1 issues.
16:36:27 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: For 154, I didn't see an email to respond to those issues about.  I think there are a bunch of things I don't like about both of them.
16:36:45 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: In the first one, the pointer to the line box, because that's not defined by a single element.
16:37:10 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: For the second, it seems unusual for "em-boxes" to represent a box with width as well; you usually only care about the height.
16:37:42 <TabAtkins_> Bert: I think we explicitly said we wouldn't define the "content area" - it's a suggestion to take the em height.
16:37:59 <TabAtkins_> arronei: The problem with "content area" is that it is heavily used throughout that chapter, so it should probably be defined.
16:38:30 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Font metrics don't necessarily define a box with positions that are the em height.
16:39:11 <TabAtkins_> arronei: So does anyone have update suggestions for it?  I'm not 100% sure on what we actually want here.
16:39:54 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I sort of see this issue as a nice-to-fix, not a blocker.
16:40:04 <TabAtkins_> arronei: It's just a detail, helping to explain the text that is already there.
16:40:26 <TabAtkins_> Bert: The current text has some variables - "a" and "b" - and perhaps those should be used in the diagrams as well.
16:40:39 <TabAtkins_> arronei: I can look into that.
16:41:17 <TabAtkins_> Bert: I agree with David - getting the images would be nice, but I don't think we should hold up the spec for them.
16:41:33 <Bert> s/"b"/"d"/
16:42:14 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: All right, issue 159?
16:43:21 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I haven't got a chance to diff this with the last version and see if there are any new comments, but I think that most of my comments have been addressed.
16:43:54 <TabAtkins_> arronei: We've started reviewing it, but haven't finished.
16:44:18 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: We'll give it a little more time for review, then.
16:44:21 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: Issue 199.
16:46:21 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I gave a proposal for this, but I'm bad at updating the wiki.  I'll go find it and make sure it's fine today.
16:46:34 <TabAtkins_> arronei: Bert, can we get an update on your edits?
16:46:59 <TabAtkins_> Bert: I think there's about two dozen left to edit.  I seem to be doing about 6-8 per week, so I should hopefully finish before TPAC.
16:47:35 <TabAtkins_> Bert: I'm not sure if the edits I've alreayd made are correct yet, but assuming everything is fine, I should probably be done by TPAC.
16:48:10 <Zakim> -dethbakin
16:48:11 <Zakim> -David_Baron
16:48:13 <Zakim> -smfr
16:48:14 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
16:48:15 <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
16:48:16 <Zakim> -ChrisL
16:48:16 <Zakim> -JohnJansen
16:48:17 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:48:17 <Zakim> -plinss
16:48:24 <Zakim> -kojiishi
16:48:27 <Zakim> -Bert
16:48:28 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:48:30 <Zakim> Attendees were JohnJansen, arronei, +1.617.650.aaaa, kojiishi, dethbakin, plinss, David_Baron, +1.650.253.aabb, TabAtkins_, smfr, Bert, ChrisL, [Microsoft]
16:49:09 <gsnedders> (On one other note, that I didn't see above, but could've missed: are people still expecting to get IR by the end of this week?)
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17:13:38 <tabatkins> gsnedders: IE, Chrome, and Safari will all have submitted reports by the end of the week.  Firefox won't, but dbaron seems to be on track to get one in the near future (he's burning the time to get it right and convert much of it over to reftests).
17:50:16 <dbaron> tabatkins, I'm not converting to reftests
17:50:49 <dbaron> tabatkins, I'm just scoring images as pass/fail, so I only need to look at each image once.
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18:00:15 <tabatkins> dbaron: Ah, okay.  In that case, could I have the data you've generated later, so that I can turn them into reftests myself?
18:00:59 <Ms2ger> tabatkins, everything is available
18:04:35 <tabatkins> Ms2ger: Link?
18:06:55 <Ms2ger> tabatkins, http://hg.mozilla.org/users/dbaron_mozilla.com/css21-implementation-report/
18:07:03 <tabatkins> Excellent.
18:09:11 <dbaron> tabatkins, data all public in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2010Oct/0051.html
18:09:22 <tabatkins> Cool, thanks.
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22:39:43 <gsnedders> tabatkins: I hope to publish script given a CSV file of identical pages that will create the manifest files
22:39:59 <gsnedders> (which I wrote for what I converted before…)
22:40:33 <gsnedders> (But what I had originally literally just pulled stuff down in real-time from our regression tracking system's database, which doesn't quite work for something published externally :))
22:42:05 <gsnedders> If everyone else except Fx will make it, I guess I ought to make sure we do. Meh. I was hoping to not work so much this week.
22:43:45 <gsnedders> (And I was going to rewrite my script to fix the bugs in it, which is the main delay)
23:45:46 <dbaron> I'm skeptical about making it given that I have to decide whether all these tests are invalid or show bugs
23:46:01 <dbaron> I'm also wondering what we're going to do about implementation reports that list large numbers of tests as invalid (which they should).
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