19:58:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #fx
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19:58:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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19:58:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3983
19:58:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see Styl_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
19:58:53 <trackbot> Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
19:58:53 <trackbot> Date: 11 October 2010
19:59:35 <Zakim> Styl_FXTF()4:00PM has now started
19:59:42 <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaaa
20:00:02 <smfr> Zakim, aaaa is me
20:00:02 <Zakim> +smfr; got it
20:01:26 <Zakim> +??P1
20:01:37 <ed> Zakim, ??P1 is me
20:01:37 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:05:32 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #fx
20:06:16 <heycam> heycam has joined #fx
20:06:24 <anthony> anthony has joined #fx
20:06:43 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:06:59 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010OctDec/0008.html
20:07:12 <lstorset-opera> lstorset-opera has joined #fx
20:07:46 <Zakim> +Shepazu
20:09:08 <ChrisL> scribenick: ChrisL
20:09:16 <ChrisL> Chair: Erik
20:09:21 <Zakim> +??P3
20:09:33 <ChrisL> zakim, ??P3 is anthony
20:09:33 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
20:09:48 <ChrisL> topic: CSS SVG transforms update
20:09:50 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010OctDec/0000.html
20:10:23 <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
20:10:23 <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
20:11:09 <ChrisL> anthony: see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010OctDec/0000.html
20:11:27 <ChrisL> and http://dev.w3.org/Graphics-FX/modules/2D-transforms/spec/2DTransforms.html
20:12:10 <ChrisL> anthony: sumary at first url, spec at second one
20:12:56 <ChrisL> anthony: some email from dr Olaf, pointed out some things
20:13:02 <anthony> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010OctDec/0001.html
20:13:36 <ChrisL> ... mainly concerns related to changes from SVG
20:13:50 <ChrisL> ds: wish there was a summary
20:13:56 <ChrisL> anthony: I made one
20:14:16 <ChrisL> anthony: changed todo list, added some items
20:14:27 <ChrisL> ... as follows
20:14:27 <anthony>  - Address any issues with transform-origin
20:14:33 <anthony>  - IDL
20:14:38 <anthony>  - Address if the properties are independent of transform attribute used in SVG (1.1, 1.2)
20:14:43 <anthony>  - Address if the transform properties are available as presentation attributes
20:14:50 <anthony>  - Investigate and address backwards incompatibilities (rotate, origin on which transform is applied)
20:14:55 <anthony>  - Address who to determine the difference between original SVG attribute and new presentation attribute (example)
20:15:04 <anthony> s/who/how/
20:15:13 <anthony>  - Address if 'transform-origin' property has any influence on appearence of old SVG transform attribute
20:15:18 <anthony>  - Address issue for objects with no bounding box (e.g. line)
20:16:15 <ChrisL> smfr: problem with assuming identity is the same as none
20:16:39 <ChrisL> ... in CSS identity doews something different, establishes a stacking context
20:17:15 <ChrisL> ... these need to be different values. initial value of none, bt identity as a defined value to start or end from
20:17:50 <ChrisL> smfr: transform-origin initial value in SVG?
20:17:57 <ChrisL> ... 50% 50%?
20:18:25 <ChrisL> anthony: odd for it to do differnt things in css and svg
20:18:31 <ChrisL> smfr: how so?
20:18:57 <ChrisL> ... for pointer events we have a different initial value for svg and html
20:19:03 <ChrisL> ... could do the same here
20:19:20 <ChrisL> shepazu: why have it different?
20:19:29 <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
20:19:29 <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
20:19:45 <ChrisL> smfr: fill and stroke dont translate to html
20:20:16 <ChrisL> ChrisL: yes that is a perfectly reasonable for pointer-events
20:21:07 <ChrisL> shepazu: do we have to have it different?
20:21:38 <ChrisL> ChrisL: if svg already has them and css does not but has stacking contexts then the initial value needs to be different
20:22:01 <ChrisL> ed: could see how many would brewak with a 50% 50% transform origin
20:22:05 <ChrisL> ... probably a lot
20:22:31 <ChrisL> shepazu: can we make it so that both behaviors work in svg somehow
20:23:16 <ChrisL> anthony: given that transform-origin is not previously part of svg, its new so should not be too much of an issue
20:23:29 <ChrisL> ... but for transform property it may break
20:24:22 <ChrisL> ChrisL: if its a property then it always has a valie. even in older content that does not specify it explicitly
20:24:51 <ChrisL> ed: would auto be ok as an initial value
20:25:56 <ChrisL> ChrisL: our initial value is 0 0 in the local coordinate system. that can't be expressed with percent syntax which is relative to the bbox
20:26:10 <ChrisL> s/valie/value/
20:26:22 <ChrisL> ed: transform-oriin accepts coordinates?
20:26:30 <ChrisL> smfr: well, it accepts lengths
20:27:24 <ChrisL> smfr: percent is percent of the border box
20:27:36 <ChrisL> shepazu: how to say 50% of the document?
20:27:42 <ChrisL> smfr: you can't
20:29:15 <ChrisL> ChrisL: so the initial value for svg is 0 0 which is relative to the local coordinate system
20:29:58 <ed> ED: so if we go for "0 0" as the initial value for svg, you would just have to specify transform-origin:center to get the 50%,50% behaviour, not that much work really
20:30:22 <ChrisL> smfr: in svg, bbox is pre-transform?
20:30:26 <ChrisL> ChrisL: yes
20:30:38 <ChrisL> shepazu: can you have an api to get the bbox?
20:31:06 <ChrisL> smfr: yes there is one that gets the bbox of the transformed element. awkward when it maps to screen space
20:31:19 <ChrisL> ... existing apis use bbox
20:31:44 <ChrisL> ... have also had request for api to map local to global coordinate system
20:32:02 <ChrisL> shepazu; dom3 has a request to hace such an api, jwatt made that request
20:32:16 <ChrisL> ... anticipate html/css will need that
20:32:22 <ChrisL> shepazu (lloks for link)
20:32:40 <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010OctDec/0013.html
20:33:03 <ChrisL> smfr: resisted giving the cuulative transform, because with 3d transforms flattening can occur, to put a plane in another 3d space so its hard to describe the whole thing
20:33:17 <ChrisL> anthony: yes you would need a whole transform list
20:35:09 <ChrisL> anthony: happy to go with the group. initial value for transform-origin, would be nice to be the center, and then somehow ...
20:35:41 <ChrisL> ChrisL: that would change behaviour for existing content in new and old implementations. it would break all existing content that uses transforms
20:35:47 <ChrisL> ed: resolution?
20:36:51 <ChrisL> resolution: initial value is auto, which in svg means 0 0 and in html/css means 50% 50%
20:37:11 <ChrisL> s/value/value of transform-origin/
20:37:57 <ChrisL> smfr; so using css to apply this to svg does the right thing?
20:38:04 <ChrisL> ChrisL: yes
20:39:15 <ChrisL> action: anthony to add the new initial value of transform-origin to the spec
20:39:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-17 - Add the new initial value of transform-origin to the spec [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-10-18].
20:39:24 <shepazu> s/does the right thing/would have the traditional 0,0 origin point/
20:40:26 <ChrisL> topic: Premultiplied gradients in CSS3
20:40:39 <ChrisL>  http://www.w3.org/mid/B53F84D2-D549-4472-A7AE-CCDE9563E1D3@me.com
20:40:39 <ChrisL>    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2006Jan/0342.html
20:40:39 <ChrisL>    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2006Jul/0050.html
20:42:08 <ChrisL> ed: css3 seems to want to have premultipied gradients, different from canvas and svg
20:43:07 <ChrisL> smfr: otherwise gradient from red to transparent has grey in it
20:43:25 <ChrisL> ChrisL; that is because transparent is rgba(0000) which is transparent black
20:43:47 <ChrisL> ... if you want a fade to red, fade to transparent red not transparent black
20:44:08 <ChrisL> ed: people would want the css3 gradient systax with canvas and svg. they will be surprised
20:44:43 <ChrisL> smfr: could we add a value to color interpolation to say its premultiplied
20:45:35 <ChrisL> ChrisL: also in premultiplied, lower resolution for colors as the transparency goes up
20:45:58 <ChrisL> smfr: so options are to pushback on premultiplied, or to add a value to allow controlling the interpolation
20:46:04 <ChrisL> ed: not that difficult to add
20:46:10 <ChrisL> shepazu: more properties
20:46:20 <ChrisL> ed: no, existing property with one new value
20:47:20 <ChrisL> ChrisL: concerned about hue shifts with fades of pastel colors
20:47:38 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/painting.html#ColorInterpolationProperty
20:47:52 <ChrisL> smfr: we use premultipiied already for gradients in safari and firefox, certainly for transitions we use premultiplied
20:48:16 <ChrisL> smfr: underlying lirary on mac does not give us a choice
20:48:35 <ChrisL> smfr: chris, please post an example
20:48:54 <ChrisL> action: chris post examples of reduced resolution with premultiplied colors
20:48:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Post examples of reduced resolution with premultiplied colors [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-10-18].
20:49:28 <ChrisL> smfr: we use this for color transitions and for css3 gradients. that soec is not finished though
20:49:42 <anthony> s/soec/spec/
20:50:10 <ChrisL> topic: 'writing-mode' values across CSS and SVG
20:50:26 <ChrisL> ed: hoped to have elika here for this one
20:50:40 <ChrisL> ed:     http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/track/issues/3
20:50:40 <ChrisL>    http://www.w3.org/mid/4C2B18DD.6020209@w3.org
20:50:40 <ChrisL>    http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text-layout/test-writing-mode-direction.svg
20:51:31 <ChrisL> all implementations do different things with writing-mode. want to alighn with svg but there is inconsistet implementation behaviour
20:51:42 <ChrisL> ... wanted to see if spec defines correct behaviour
20:52:05 <ChrisL> ChrisL: do we have a table of results for different implementations on that test?
20:52:17 <ChrisL> ed: no. put this topic off until elika is here
20:52:56 <ChrisL> ed: batik does 123 on second line in orange, in differnt way to opera. not well tested code in opera, not much used
20:54:36 <ChrisL> ed: not that well defined in spec either.
20:54:53 <ChrisL> ChrisL: good topic for tpac, needs a whiteboard
20:55:08 <ChrisL> anthony: hope to be there
20:55:17 <ChrisL> ed: will be there too
20:55:36 <ChrisL> ed: good to define transforms more at tpac too
20:56:19 <ChrisL> adjourned
20:56:25 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
20:56:25 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.636.aaaa, smfr, ed, ChrisL, Shepazu, anthony
20:56:32 <Zakim> -ed
20:56:35 <Zakim> -ChrisL
20:56:37 <Zakim> -smfr
20:56:39 <Zakim> -anthony
20:56:47 <Zakim> -Shepazu
20:56:48 <Zakim> Styl_FXTF()4:00PM has ended
20:56:50 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.636.aaaa, smfr, ed, ChrisL, Shepazu, anthony
20:56:53 <ChrisL> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010OctDec/0008.html
20:57:00 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
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20:57:06 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs minutes
20:57:17 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
20:57:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/11-fx-minutes.html ChrisL