IRC log of ua on 2010-10-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:49:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
15:49:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:49:05 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:49:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
15:49:07 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
15:49:07 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:49:08 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:49:08 [trackbot]
Date: 07 October 2010
16:04:09 [jallan]
zakim, this will be UA
16:04:09 [Zakim]
ok, jallan; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 56 minutes
16:16:59 [jallan]
chair: JimAllan_KellyFord
16:26:45 [jallan]
Agenda+ Action Item Review Agenda+ Are Smart Phone Apps user agents? Agenda+ Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG Agenda+ Tooltips - device agnosticism [bug 10873] Agenda+ November F2F Agenda+ Browser Implementations
16:27:41 [jallan]
zakim, agenda?
16:27:41 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:27:43 [Zakim]
1. Action Item Review Agenda+ Are Smart Phone Apps user agents? Agenda+ Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG
16:27:46 [Zakim]
... Agenda+ Tooltips - device agnosticism [bug 10873]
16:27:48 [Zakim]
... Agenda+ November F2F Agenda+ Browser Implementations [from jallan]
16:28:07 [jallan]
zakim, remove item 1
16:28:07 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Action Item Review Agenda+ Are Smart Phone Apps user agents? Agenda+ Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG
16:28:09 [Zakim]
... Agenda+ Tooltips - device agnosticism [bug 10873]
16:28:12 [Zakim]
... Agenda+ November F2F Agenda+ Browser Implementations, dropped
16:28:38 [jallan]
Agenda+ Action Item Review
16:28:50 [jallan]
Agenda+ Are Smart Phone Apps user agents?
16:29:04 [jallan]
Agenda+ Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG
16:29:18 [jallan]
Agenda+ Tooltips - device agnosticism [bug 10873]
16:32:09 [jallan]
Agenda+ November F2F
16:32:22 [jallan]
Agenda+ Browser Implementations
16:56:54 [patrickhlauke]
patrickhlauke has joined #ua
16:58:09 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
16:58:40 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:58:48 [Zakim]
+ +44.797.663.aaaa
16:58:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.206.aabb
16:59:33 [jallan]
zalo, aabb is really jallan
16:59:46 [jallan]
zakim, aabb is really jallan
16:59:46 [Zakim]
+jallan; got it
16:59:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.895.aacc
17:00:00 [Zakim]
17:00:03 [patrickhlauke]
zakim, aaaa is patrickhlauke
17:00:03 [Zakim]
+patrickhlauke; got it
17:00:27 [Greg]
zakim, aacc is really me
17:00:27 [Zakim]
+Greg; got it
17:00:32 [patrickhlauke]
is my microphone not working, or is it the phone bridge?
17:00:32 [Zakim]
17:00:34 [Zakim]
17:01:02 [patrickhlauke]
i can hear you folks, but you can't hear me
17:01:06 [patrickhlauke]
17:01:11 [patrickhlauke]
17:01:14 [Zakim]
17:02:02 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:02:20 [Zakim]
17:02:30 [sharper]
Zakim, code?
17:02:30 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper
17:03:26 [Zakim]
17:03:51 [sharper]
zakim, ??P8 is sharper
17:03:51 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:04:46 [Zakim]
17:05:30 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:06:18 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
17:06:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Greg, [Microsoft], jallan, patrickhlauke, sharper, Jeanne
17:06:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jeanne, sharper, Greg, patrickhlauke, Zakim, RRSAgent, jallan, trackbot
17:06:57 [jallan]
scribe: jallan
17:07:09 [jeanne]
zakim, Microsoft is kford
17:07:09 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:08:11 [jallan]
zakim, agenda?
17:08:11 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:08:12 [Zakim]
2. Action Item Review [from jallan]
17:08:14 [Zakim]
3. Are Smart Phone Apps user agents? [from jallan]
17:08:16 [Zakim]
4. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG [from jallan]
17:08:20 [Zakim]
5. Tooltips - device agnosticism [bug 10873] [from jallan]
17:08:23 [Zakim]
6. November F2F [from jallan]
17:08:24 [Zakim]
7. Browser Implementations [from jallan]
17:08:29 [jallan]
zakim, take up item 2
17:08:29 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Action Item Review" taken up [from jallan]
17:15:55 [jallan]
discussion of action items
17:27:11 [Zakim]
17:30:01 [jeanne]
close action-247
17:30:01 [trackbot]
ACTION-247 And MH to create techniques for 4.9 by December 3 closed
17:30:35 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:36:00 [jallan]
close action-268
17:36:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-268 Craft request for input on synthesized speech inclusion in the document closed
17:36:06 [jallan]
close action-269
17:36:06 [trackbot]
ACTION-269 Answer comment saying that we think section 3.6.1 covers the comment. closed
17:36:19 [jallan]
close action-286
17:36:19 [trackbot]
ACTION-286 Create use case for no-script etc. for implementation doc closed
17:36:35 [jallan]
close action-289
17:36:36 [trackbot]
ACTION-289 Write a success criteria for viewport scaling (text, images) closed
17:38:09 [jallan]
close action-291
17:38:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-291 Write SC for user ability to open a plugin or open external player. closed
17:43:32 [jallan]
close action-319
17:43:32 [trackbot]
ACTION-319 Copy edit draft with JS to normalize document and establish conventions closed
17:44:08 [jeanne]
17:46:29 [jallan]
stopped review at item 329 (start with this next time)
17:46:38 [jallan]
zakim, close item 2
17:46:38 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Action Item Review, closed
17:46:39 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:46:40 [Zakim]
3. Are Smart Phone Apps user agents? [from jallan]
17:46:57 [jallan]
zakim, agenda?
17:46:57 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:46:58 [Zakim]
3. Are Smart Phone Apps user agents? [from jallan]
17:47:00 [Zakim]
4. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG [from jallan]
17:47:04 [Zakim]
5. Tooltips - device agnosticism [bug 10873] [from jallan]
17:47:07 [Zakim]
6. November F2F [from jallan]
17:47:08 [Zakim]
7. Browser Implementations [from jallan]
17:47:44 [jallan]
zakim, open item 5
17:47:44 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Tooltips - device agnosticism [bug 10873]" taken up [from jallan]
17:48:40 [jallan]
gl: do we need an example about tooltips
17:49:22 [jallan]
ja: no hover on touch screens
17:49:49 [jallan]
pl: there is some discussion on how to implement hover in OS
17:51:25 [jallan]
js: should not decrease functionality because it is not suppored in tablets
17:51:48 [jallan]
js: would rather touchscreen develop a hover function
17:52:30 [jallan]
gl: does make sense to have an efficient UI for commonly used functions
17:53:02 [jeanne]
GL: things that people want to do a lot should also have a pointer-only method of accomplishing it.
17:53:32 [jallan]
... for headpointer, and voice input etc. need a hover function
17:54:34 [Greg]
Should we add a recommendation to include an efficient method of carrying out frequently-used tasks using each supported input mode (e.g. keyboard, mouse, touch screen, speech). Keyboard (or keyboard equivalent)” is of course the most important because keyboard equivalent makes it device independent, but the others can be recommendations.
17:55:31 [Greg]
Having optimized methods for pointing device and touchscreen are very useful for people using head pointers, etc.
17:55:47 [jallan]
pl: been talking for years about not using mouse over, etc, nobody listened. now with iphone, they have begun to listen.
17:57:01 [jallan] to rework GL 4.1 to make more device agnostic. change to 'keyboard and keyboard like interfaces (pointers, touch screen, etc)
17:58:02 [jallan]
gl: in ISO use keybard or keybard equivelent throught the ISO document
17:58:43 [jallan]
sh: no matter the interface, the os generates keyboard scan code, and sends that to the OS for activation
17:58:56 [Greg]
The answer is that by “keyboard” we always mean “keyboard or keyboard equivalent”; however, it is true that (a) this only makes features accessible, not necessarily convenient, and (b) UAAG20 does not currently *say* that keyboard means “keyboard (or keyboard-equivalent)”. ISO 9241-171 actually uses the phrase “keyboard (or keyboard-equivalent)” throughout. I recommend we do...
17:58:58 [Greg]
...the same.
17:59:29 [jallan]
...all keys have a scan code, when you select something the scancode is sent to the OS for activation
17:59:44 [jallan]
...even mouse clicks do this
18:01:11 [Greg]
I don't support using the term "scan code" because that really applies only to low-level keyboard emulation, but keyboard emulation can also be done at a high level (e.g. events). Also, most readers won't understand the term "scan code" whereas most would understand "keyboard (or keyboard emulator)".
18:01:12 [jallan]
pl: problem with touchscreen, functions much like a mouse, but no hover. poor heurestics-touch and smear, or have a long touch
18:02:19 [jallan]
sh: voiceover users keyboard emulation
18:03:00 [jallan]
gl: scancode only applies to low level activity
18:03:43 [patrickhlauke]
still not sure how touchscreen navigation (scrolling, activating with a tap, long-tapping for context) can be squared with keyboard/keyboard-like language
18:03:58 [jallan]
kf: UAAG wants to be device agnostic. yet, 4.1 is all keyboard.
18:04:07 [patrickhlauke]
and in fact, do we need guidance on mouse interfaces?
18:04:13 [sharper]
sharper has left #ua
18:04:34 [jallan] to not waterdown 4.1, yet cover nne keyboard devices
18:05:14 [jallan]
... things that happen on webpages today were not functional with smartphones a year ago.
18:05:45 [patrickhlauke]
if i was a radical, i'd say the title of guideline 4.1 should be "ensure full access" (with all available input modalities)
18:05:52 [jallan]
... smartphone UA have gotten smarter (js, etc.)
18:06:13 [jallan]
kf: what do we say to cover present functioning and the future.
18:06:28 [Zakim]
18:06:50 [patrickhlauke]
and then split into the various prominent modalities, with explanation (e.g. what is keyboard, with definition of kbd-like modalities)
18:06:55 [jallan]
...topic for face to face- touch tablet
18:07:10 [jallan]
kf: also do we write a response.
18:08:54 [jeanne]
action: Jeanne to draft a response to the HTML5 bug on device independence, tooltip and hover functions.
18:08:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-454 - Draft a response to the HTML5 bug on device independence, tooltip and hover functions. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-10-14].
18:09:06 [jallan]
zakim, close item 5
18:09:06 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Tooltips - device agnosticism [bug 10873], closed
18:09:09 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:09:10 [Zakim]
3. Are Smart Phone Apps user agents? [from jallan]
18:09:50 [jallan]
zakim, open item 6
18:09:50 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "November F2F" taken up [from jallan]
18:10:43 [jallan]
dates are November 9 & 10
18:10:55 [jallan]
zakim, close item 6
18:10:55 [Zakim]
agendum 6, November F2F, closed
18:10:56 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:10:57 [Zakim]
3. Are Smart Phone Apps user agents? [from jallan]
18:11:05 [jallan]
zakim, agenda?
18:11:05 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:11:07 [Zakim]
3. Are Smart Phone Apps user agents? [from jallan]
18:11:08 [Zakim]
4. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG [from jallan]
18:11:10 [Zakim]
7. Browser Implementations [from jallan]
18:11:34 [jallan]
zakim, open item 3
18:11:34 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Are Smart Phone Apps user agents?" taken up [from jallan]
18:12:54 [jallan]
gl: don't understand question. they all sit on the OS
18:13:06 [jallan]
js: some are
18:13:55 [jallan]
kf: example of traffic detail app, it is using web servicess.
18:14:22 [jallan]
gl: some apps use internet applications, others use web protocols and are user agents
18:14:57 [patrickhlauke]
"user agent
18:14:57 [patrickhlauke]
A user agent is any software that retrieves, renders and facilitates end user interaction with Web content."
18:14:59 [jallan]
ja: http is web app, but udp is not
18:15:17 [patrickhlauke]
is that the cut-off point?
18:16:03 [jallan]
js: this is related to secondlife. general concensus...if something uses uri then it needs a user agent
18:16:52 [jallan]
pl: perhaps need to define 'web content' (html, css, js, flash, etc.)
18:16:55 [jallan]
...interaction with content
18:17:12 [jallan]
kf: what about twitter apps
18:17:33 [jallan]
js: it uses webconent, it facilitates interaction
18:18:14 [jallan]
pl: not a webapp, just pulling info out of a ddatabase, in an app
18:18:35 [jallan]
...may be splitting hairs.
18:18:36 [jallan]
ja: its all about splitting hairs.
18:18:38 [Greg]
It seems that all applications--for any platforms--fits into one of three categories: stand-alone apps that don't interact with the network or use W3C protocols or formats (i.e. standalone apps); apps that use networking but not W3C protocols or formats (i.e. Internet apps); and those that do use W3C protocols or formats (i.e. Web apps). The problem is that these distinctions are usually...
18:18:40 [Greg]
...transparent to the user. Two apps might be entirely identical to the user, but because one uses W3C standards "under the hood" while the other does not, only one is theoretically covered by UAAG.
18:18:55 [jallan]
kf: many tweets have urls, that can be opened with full browser
18:20:03 [jallan]
pl: twitter sending url to UA is still not a UA, if the url opens in twitter, then it is a UA and should comply
18:21:41 [patrickhlauke]
"content (web content) includes empty content
18:21:41 [patrickhlauke]
Information and sensory experience to be communicated to the user by means of a user agent, including code or markup that defines the content's structure, presentation, and interactions [adapted from WCAG 2.0]
18:21:41 [patrickhlauke]
empty content (which may be alternative content) is either a null value or an empty string (e.g. one that is zero characters long). For instance, in HTML, alt="" sets the value of the alt attribute to the empty string. In some markup languages, an element may have empty content (e.g., the HR element in HTML)."
18:21:47 [Greg]
I sort of want to avoid the term "web application", because I believe UAAG is supposed to apply to, say, SVG viewers even if they don't have any built-in network or Web awareness, *because* SVG is a W3C standard.
18:22:03 [jallan]
ja: need to define 'web content' , just because something goes over the ethernet cable does not make it webcontent (skype, im, etc)
18:23:08 [jallan]
pl: pl: murky definition
18:24:45 [jallan]
js: web content = has uri/url
18:26:06 [jallan]
gl: standalone app that plays flash. but if it transfers stuff over web, using w3 protocols
18:26:23 [jallan]
pl: looking at wcag2, define webpage, but not content
18:26:59 [patrickhlauke]
18:27:24 [patrickhlauke]
wcag skirted around "what is web content" and instead defines "web page" though their intro text still talks about web content
18:27:28 [Greg]
So, my current leaning is still towards saying UAAG applies to any software that uses W3C protocols or formats. (But I agree that leaves out software that renders proprietary formats such as Flash players, unless they transfer data over using Web protocols such as using URIs.)
18:29:00 [jallan]
pl: if we don't define what we apply to, we leave ourselve open for ?criticism?
18:29:22 [jallan]
gl: but compliance is voluntary, so may not need to define.
18:30:17 [Greg]
I hope we don't need to provide an objective definition of what UAAG applies to because it's up to a developer to decide whether or not they want to claim compliance, and up to a purchasing organization to decide for which products or product categories they want to require compliance.
18:31:27 [jallan]
pl: we don't give athorative definintion of webcontent, here is what we think it is, if you think your device, applicatoin covers this then it is a UA
18:33:07 [patrickhlauke]
suggest saying specifically in UAAG intro to say we don't give authoritive definition of "what is web content", and that UA authors need to decide for themselves, if they want to claim compliance, if their UA is using "web content"
18:33:47 [jallan]
18:35:14 [jallan]
gl: discuss 'raising the floor" and/or NPII to see how we can leverage, or overlap
18:35:50 [jallan]
18:42:50 [patrickhlauke]
(gonna have to dip out, not wanting to break up your interesting - though offlist - discussion ... speak soon tho)
18:42:56 [Zakim]
18:43:46 [patrickhlauke]
patrickhlauke has left #ua
18:47:10 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:47:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Greg, kford, jallan, Jeanne, Kim_Patch
18:47:11 [Zakim]
On IRC I see KimPatch, jeanne, Greg, Zakim, RRSAgent, jallan, trackbot
18:53:18 [Zakim]
18:53:19 [Zakim]
18:53:21 [Zakim]
18:53:31 [Zakim]
18:53:41 [Zakim]
18:53:42 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:53:44 [Zakim]
Attendees were +44.797.663.aaaa, +1.512.206.aabb, jallan, +1.425.895.aacc, patrickhlauke, Greg, sharper, Jeanne, kford, Kim_Patch
18:54:05 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:54:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
18:54:14 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make logs public
20:43:01 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua