16:53:47 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 16:53:47 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/07-tagmem-irc 16:53:55 agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/07-agenda 16:56:57 masinter has joined #tagmem 16:57:08 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started 16:57:16 +DKA 16:57:43 ht has joined #tagmem 16:59:08 +Masinter 17:00:40 noah has joined #tagmem 17:00:50 +Jonathan_Rees 17:01:21 +Noah_Mendelsohn 17:01:34 trackbot, start meeting 17:01:36 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:01:38 Zakim, this will be TAG 17:01:38 ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started 17:01:39 Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference 17:01:39 Date: 07 October 2010 17:01:51 scribe: Jonathan Rees 17:01:54 scribenick: jar 17:02:01 chair: Noah Mendelsohn 17:02:25 zakim, who is here? 17:02:25 On the phone I see DKA, Masinter, Jonathan_Rees, Noah_Mendelsohn 17:02:26 On IRC I see noah, ht, masinter, RRSAgent, Zakim, DKA, jar, timbl, trackbot, Yves 17:02:32 +Yves 17:03:02 regrets: John, Ashok 17:03:51 topic: Convene 17:04:08 Next meeting 14 Oct, but somewhat at risk 17:04:42 topic: Approve minutes of prior meeting(s) 17:05:47 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/30-minutes.html 17:05:54 What does 'DS' stand for? 17:06:21 Yep. 17:06:40 Noah has changed DS to distributed extensibility 17:07:03 RESOLVED: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/30-minutes.html with correction to 'DS' 17:07:14 zakim, code? 17:07:14 the conference code is 0824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), ht 17:07:15 s/with/approved with/ 17:07:25 +??P10 17:07:44 topic: Administrative items 17:07:51 who is ??P10 17:09:47 issue-50? 17:09:47 ISSUE-50 -- URIs, URNs, "location independent" naming systems and associated registries for naming on the Web -- open 17:09:47 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/50 17:09:56 +1 to that topic 17:10:53 ACTION-444? 17:10:53 ACTION-444 -- Jonathan Rees to draft a white paper on link persistence -- due 2010-10-11 -- OPEN 17:10:53 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/444 17:11:01 jar: I think I have new ways to look at this, and have received some encouragement from Larry and Henry 17:11:38 noah: Other writings in progress? 17:12:10 masinter: I will gather references for additional metadata-related resources 17:12:16 I'll gather references for metadata discussion, but would appreciate pointers 17:12:55 ACTION-465? 17:12:55 ACTION-465 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule F2F discussion of ACTION-282, "which metadata mechanisms to use when". Get reading list from Larry and www-tag. -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN 17:12:55 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/465 17:13:51 issue-63? 17:13:51 ISSUE-63 -- Metadata Architecture for the Web -- open 17:13:51 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/63 17:13:58 larry, go through the notes for ISSUE-63 (I think) - I've dumped links there. 17:13:59 JAR: For Larry, when I come across metadata things, I've been trying to tag for issue-63 17:14:09 ok, i'll sort through those 17:14:17 ACTION-355? 17:14:17 ACTION-355 -- John Kemp to explore the degree to which AWWW and associated findings tell the interaction story for Web Applications -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN 17:14:17 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/355 17:14:57 noah: John K regrets lack of progress on interaction story, his TAG work has been unexpectedly preempted 17:15:12 ACTION-454? 17:15:12 ACTION-454 -- Daniel Appelquist to take lead in organizing outside contacts for TAG F2F -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN 17:15:12 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/454 17:15:38 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0008.html 17:16:14 DKA: Not sure why not getting through 17:17:28 zakim, q+ to suggest trying other routes 17:17:28 I see ht on the speaker queue 17:17:38 DKA: JAR made a suggestion, but I would like more information 17:18:36 (discussion of who, and how to reach) 17:19:01 ack ht 17:19:03 ht, you wanted to suggest trying other routes 17:19:41 ACTION: Noah to ask Raman to set up phone at F2F 17:19:41 Created ACTION-474 - Ask Raman to set up phone at F2F [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-10-14]. 17:23:46 topic: F2F Visitor Session 17:23:50 (topic started above) 17:24:01 topic: TPAC meeting with IETF 17:25:20 IETF TAG meeting at 2pm Thursday French local time 17:25:38 jar: What's Thu vs. Fri? 17:26:19 noah: Fri was Norm Walsh 17:28:16 noah: JAR please work with Yves to decide whether a phone is needed. 17:28:20 suggest for IETF meeting reviewing MIME and Web, IRI, other liaison issues, way forward in IETF 17:28:37 maybe post agenda on W3C/IETF liaison list? 17:29:01 websec as well 17:29:09 (new name for hasmat) 17:29:29 topic: HTML 5 / Distributed Extensibility 17:29:43 issue-41? 17:29:43 ISSUE-41 -- What are good practices for designing extensible languages and for handling versioning? -- open 17:29:43 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/41 17:29:51 ACTON-473? 17:29:55 ACTION-473? 17:29:55 ACTION-473 -- Noah Mendelsohn to draft possible TAG response on HTML extensibility -- due 2010-10-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:29:55 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/473 17:30:34 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0007.html 17:30:34 noah: HTML WG is running a survey , "like SVG" vs. "no edit" 17:31:00 noah: looking for go-ahead to send email [linked above] 17:32:47 (jar was reading email and missed HT's comment. sorry) 17:32:53 s/email/the email/ 17:33:50 ht: Should we say something pointed and contrary, as opposed to a general purpose "we prefer DE" criticism? (scribe uncertainty) 17:34:44 a stronger statement might also call for continued, serious, additional W3C work on DE, independently of what HTML WG can agree to for HTML5 LC 17:35:06 timbl has joined #tagmem 17:35:14 Larry, do you have a proposed sentence? There is value in getting this now to a point where we can approve. 17:35:58 The note says in para #1" two options for HTML extensibility, the options being known 17:35:58 > informally as "like SVG" [2] and "zero edit" [3] 17:36:12 I think that covers it for our purposes: we can use those terms in the remainder of the note. 17:36:27 We thing the like-SVG proposal not only provides the basis for DE, it has the advantage of doing so in a way which makes good use of the already-in-place support for namespaces in the DOM, while placing virtually all the burden of using the proposed mechanism on those who chose to use it, since namespace-awareness is already necessary for SVG and MathML. 17:37:14 We thing the like-SVG proposal provides the basis for DE placing virtually all the burden of using the proposed mechanism on those who chose to use it, since namespace-awareness is already necessary for SVG and MathML. 17:38:01 Distributed extensibility is an important area for managing the evolution of web content: allowing vendors to experiment with additions before standardization while controlling those extensions. We understand that the details of how to accomplish this are difficult, and that "like SVG" may be the best we can accomplish for HTML at this time. However, we support continued, serious, additional W3C work on DE, independently of what can be 17:38:01 accomplished for HTML5 "last call". 17:38:03 Implicitly, we believe that maintaining support for namespaces in the DOM is, on balance, worthwhile. 17:38:27 q+ to discuss endorsing more work rather than specifically namespaces 17:39:46 ack next 17:39:47 masinter, you wanted to discuss endorsing more work rather than specifically namespaces 17:39:54 HT: Endorses Larry's long quote. 17:40:10 We are about to endorse a proposal that does use namespaces. Why say more? 17:40:55 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0006.html 17:41:06 (discussion of wording and content of email) 17:41:09 We think the like-SVG proposal provides the basis for DE, with the additional benefit of placing virtually all the burden of using the proposed mechanism on those who chose to use it, since namespace-awareness is already necessary for SVG and MathML. 17:42:01 On balance, the TAG believes that the "like SVG" option is far superior to 17:42:01 "zero-edit", and we hope that it will be adopted by the HTML working group. 17:42:01 It is, of course, a compromise in a number of dimensions, but we feel 17:42:01 that it represents a significant positive and pragmatic step toward 17:42:01 providing the needed extensibility. 17:42:08 We think the like-SVG proposal provides the basis for DE, with the additional benefit of placing virtually all the burden of using the proposed mechanism on those who chose to use it, since namespace-awareness is already necessary for SVG and MathML. 17:42:15 please remove the word "far" 17:46:38 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0010.html 17:48:40 I like it. 17:49:10 noah: Draft is in my emacs buffer, but almost same as tag email linked above. What does everyone think? 17:50:28 noah: I think there are other uses for DE [besides what LM articulated]? 17:50:38 ok 17:50:59 noah: Leave out part after the colon? 17:51:14 +1 to leaving out the stuff after the colon. 17:52:00 noah: Sounds like people on the call are OK with this version. 17:52:18 /me *** timbl (timbl@213.17.160.105) has joined channel #tagmem [10:35] ? 17:52:18 17:53:10 TIM are you there? 17:53:16 We need your input. 17:53:29 +1 to ht 17:53:44 *** Note to minutes editor: tidy this up... 17:57:21 For F2F agenda, see: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/07-agenda 17:57:33 Noah will dispose of the email appropriately. 17:57:34 F2F Agenda Planning 17:57:37 topic: F2F Agenda Planning 17:57:41 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/07-agenda#F2FAgenda 17:58:20 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/19-agenda.html 17:59:43 noah: What do you all think of the agenda? 18:00:17 masinter: I need feedback on sniffing (ACTION-472) *before* the F2F. [Please.] 18:00:30 action-472? 18:00:30 ACTION-472 -- Larry Masinter to update the mime-draft, due 2010-10-12 -- due 2010-10-07 -- OPEN 18:00:30 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/472 18:00:55 masinter: Correction: I am not hosting the IRI meeting, I'm just attending it. 18:01:27 masinter: It's an open meeting (telecon) 18:01:40 noah: Maybe Raman will let us stay in the room and use speakerphone there. 18:01:55 But he's warned us likely not. 18:05:08 on MIME and the web document, I will have a new document submitted soon, would appreciate any new input ASAP 18:05:13 topic: Privacy Workshop 18:05:24 ACTION-460? 18:05:24 ACTION-460 -- Daniel Appelquist to coordinate with IAB regarding next steps on privacy policy -- due 2010-10-12 -- OPEN 18:05:24 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/460 18:05:28 ACTION-470? 18:05:28 ACTION-470 -- Noah Mendelsohn to ask Thomas about TAG involvement in privacy workshop -- due 2010-09-30 -- CLOSED 18:05:28 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/470 18:05:40 Nothing to report on 460. 18:06:30 i might be interested also, in the role as TAG member 18:07:59 DKA: Will follow up with Thomas R 18:08:13 topic: Action items 18:08:21 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview 18:08:27 ACTION-469? 18:08:27 ACTION-469 -- Noah Mendelsohn to offer to organizers of AC to do short session answering questions and/or giving TAG status report -- due 2010-09-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:08:27 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/469 18:09:08 Note was sent 29 Sept. 18:09:14 close ACTION-469 18:09:14 ACTION-469 Offer to organizers of AC to do short session answering questions and/or giving TAG status report closed 18:09:25 ACTION-473? 18:09:25 ACTION-473 -- Noah Mendelsohn to draft possible TAG response on HTML extensibility -- due 2010-10-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:09:25 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/473 18:09:56 noah: Request permission to close this when the note goes out. 18:10:03 (no objection) 18:10:04 Overdue by person: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=due 18:10:24 ACTION-390? 18:10:24 ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps -- due 2010-05-25 -- OPEN 18:10:24 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390 18:10:35 issue-58? 18:10:35 ISSUE-58 -- Scalability of URI Access to Resources -- open 18:10:35 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/58 18:11:13 action-434? 18:11:13 ACTION-434 -- Daniel Appelquist to prepare discussion of structure of what we want to do about web apps architecture... -- due 2010-05-27 -- OPEN 18:11:13 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/434 18:11:28 That could be important. 18:11:51 I really want the Web apps stuff to be a main theme here (notwithstanding that we're getting a bit less writing than I had hoped) 18:13:31 -ht 18:13:38 masinter: Synchronization, security issues - I may have some input - 18:14:24 noah: We have to do a gut check on where we're going with this web apps stuff. Action 434 tries to take this top down. 18:14:47 ... If you can give serious thought that would be great ... I would rather not schedule a session just because we said we would 18:15:10 ... can you let us know over the next week how it's coming together? 18:15:20 DKA: sure 18:15:50 action-390? 18:15:50 ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps -- due 2010-05-25 -- OPEN 18:15:50 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390 18:16:18 DKA: How about the F2F 18:16:39 action-390 due 2010-10-19 18:16:39 ACTION-390 Review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps due date now 2010-10-19 18:16:49 ACTION-390 due: 2010-10-18 18:16:55 no : 18:16:56 ACTION-390: due 2010-10-18 18:16:56 ACTION-390 Review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps notes added 18:17:03 no : 18:17:17 ACTION-390? 18:17:17 ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps -- due 2010-10-18 -- OPEN 18:17:17 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390 18:17:45 ACTION-434 Due 2010-10-18 18:17:45 ACTION-434 Prepare discussion of structure of what we want to do about web apps architecture... due date now 2010-10-18 18:18:23 ACTION-461? 18:18:23 ACTION-461 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft "finding" on Web Apps API design -- due 2010-09-09 -- OPEN 18:18:23 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/461 18:20:35 ACTION-461 Due 2010-10-31 18:20:35 ACTION-461 Draft "finding" on Web Apps API design due date now 2010-10-31 18:20:55 ACTION-439? 18:20:55 ACTION-439 -- Daniel Appelquist to introduce signature-based approaches to access control -- due 2010-06-15 -- OPEN 18:20:55 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/439 18:21:41 Came from June 2010 F2F: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0106.html 18:21:45 Discussion related to widgets 18:22:26 DKA: 439 had to do with how widgets use signatures... need to relate to the relevant widget-signature document 18:23:28 ACTION-439 due 2010-10-14 18:23:28 ACTION-439 Introduce signature-based approaches to access control due date now 2010-10-14 18:23:52 ACTION-462? 18:23:52 ACTION-462 -- Yves Lafon to write draft of best practices on redirection for secondary resources (with help from Tim) -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN 18:23:52 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/462 18:24:08 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Oct/0003.html 18:25:24 ACTION-462 PENDING REVIEW 18:25:25 noah: Discuss 462 at F2F? 18:25:58 ACTION-448 18:26:14 Yes, we agreed to discuss 462 at the F2F 18:26:19 ACTION-448? 18:26:19 ACTION-448 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html on 26 August (followup to 24 June and 12 August discussion) -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN 18:26:19 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/448 18:26:55 Barth email on URL specs 18:27:01 ACTION-442 Due 2010-10-12 18:27:01 ACTION-442 Try and integrate NM and TVRs words into a coherent draft due date now 2010-10-12 18:27:15 ACTION-448 Due 2010-10-12 18:27:15 ACTION-448 Schedule discussion of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html on 26 August (followup to 24 June and 12 August discussion) due date now 2010-10-12 18:28:00 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/open?sort=owner 18:28:22 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner 18:28:55 ACTION-459? 18:28:55 ACTION-459 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule F2F discussion of IRIbis status and Larry's proposal -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN 18:28:55 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/459 18:29:38 masinter: Will give a 5 minute report on where we are. 18:29:50 ACTION-465? 18:29:50 ACTION-465 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule F2F discussion of ACTION-282, "which metadata mechanisms to use when". Get reading list from Larry and www-tag. -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN 18:29:50 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/465 18:30:52 rrsagent, pointer 18:30:52 See http://www.w3.org/2010/10/07-tagmem-irc#T18-30-52 18:31:03 -DKA 18:31:07 -Yves 18:31:09 -Masinter 18:31:09 -Noah_Mendelsohn 18:31:12 ADJOURNED 18:31:16 -Jonathan_Rees 18:31:17 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended 18:31:19 Attendees were DKA, Masinter, Jonathan_Rees, Noah_Mendelsohn, Yves, ht 18:31:21 Thank you for your patience with all the action item reviews. 18:31:46 Jar: it would be helpful if you would send minutes by end of week? Many thanks. 19:23:15 timbl_ has joined #tagmem 19:56:34 Zakim has left #tagmem 20:52:22 hi Tim, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0012.html 20:52:38 this is the text about HTML extensibility we discussed during the call 20:54:54 Looks reasonable to me .. got a pointer t the like-svg 20:54:56 ? 20:55:18 let me find it 20:56:02 I was about to apste it :) 20:56:30 the other one being http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-41 20:57:25 A snag is that you have to switch with rather than just being abl to include 20:57:40 which when peopl emix they two will be what users want 20:58:09 Uness one can define > 1 possible root. 20:58:31 I am happy for that messahe to go to the HTML WG. 20:58:55 thx 20:58:57 "An extension specification may define one or more "root elements" " -- good 20:59:04 >1 20:59:07 allowed