IRC log of tagmem on 2010-10-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:53:47 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/07-tagmem-irc
16:53:55 [jar]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/07-agenda
16:56:57 [masinter]
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TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
16:57:16 [Zakim]
+DKA
16:57:43 [ht]
ht has joined #tagmem
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+Masinter
17:00:40 [noah]
noah has joined #tagmem
17:00:50 [Zakim]
+Jonathan_Rees
17:01:21 [Zakim]
+Noah_Mendelsohn
17:01:34 [jar]
trackbot, start meeting
17:01:36 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:01:38 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TAG
17:01:38 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started
17:01:39 [trackbot]
Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
17:01:39 [trackbot]
Date: 07 October 2010
17:01:51 [jar]
scribe: Jonathan Rees
17:01:54 [jar]
scribenick: jar
17:02:01 [jar]
chair: Noah Mendelsohn
17:02:25 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
17:02:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DKA, Masinter, Jonathan_Rees, Noah_Mendelsohn
17:02:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see noah, ht, masinter, RRSAgent, Zakim, DKA, jar, timbl, trackbot, Yves
17:02:32 [Zakim]
+Yves
17:03:02 [jar]
regrets: John, Ashok
17:03:51 [jar]
topic: Convene
17:04:08 [jar]
Next meeting 14 Oct, but somewhat at risk
17:04:42 [jar]
topic: Approve minutes of prior meeting(s)
17:05:47 [jar]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/30-minutes.html
17:05:54 [jar]
What does 'DS' stand for?
17:06:21 [DKA]
Yep.
17:06:40 [jar]
Noah has changed DS to distributed extensibility
17:07:03 [jar]
RESOLVED: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/30-minutes.html with correction to 'DS'
17:07:14 [ht]
zakim, code?
17:07:14 [Zakim]
the conference code is 0824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), ht
17:07:15 [jar]
s/with/approved with/
17:07:25 [Zakim]
+??P10
17:07:44 [jar]
topic: Administrative items
17:07:51 [noah]
who is ??P10
17:09:47 [masinter]
issue-50?
17:09:47 [trackbot]
ISSUE-50 -- URIs, URNs, "location independent" naming systems and associated registries for naming on the Web -- open
17:09:47 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/50
17:09:56 [ht]
+1 to that topic
17:10:53 [noah]
ACTION-444?
17:10:53 [trackbot]
ACTION-444 -- Jonathan Rees to draft a white paper on link persistence -- due 2010-10-11 -- OPEN
17:10:53 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/444
17:11:01 [jar]
jar: I think I have new ways to look at this, and have received some encouragement from Larry and Henry
17:11:38 [jar]
noah: Other writings in progress?
17:12:10 [jar]
masinter: I will gather references for additional metadata-related resources
17:12:16 [masinter]
I'll gather references for metadata discussion, but would appreciate pointers
17:12:55 [noah]
ACTION-465?
17:12:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-465 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule F2F discussion of ACTION-282, "which metadata mechanisms to use when". Get reading list from Larry and www-tag. -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN
17:12:55 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/465
17:13:51 [masinter]
issue-63?
17:13:51 [trackbot]
ISSUE-63 -- Metadata Architecture for the Web -- open
17:13:51 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/63
17:13:58 [jar]
larry, go through the notes for ISSUE-63 (I think) - I've dumped links there.
17:13:59 [noah]
JAR: For Larry, when I come across metadata things, I've been trying to tag for issue-63
17:14:09 [masinter]
ok, i'll sort through those
17:14:17 [noah]
ACTION-355?
17:14:17 [trackbot]
ACTION-355 -- John Kemp to explore the degree to which AWWW and associated findings tell the interaction story for Web Applications -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN
17:14:17 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/355
17:14:57 [jar]
noah: John K regrets lack of progress on interaction story, his TAG work has been unexpectedly preempted
17:15:12 [jar]
ACTION-454?
17:15:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-454 -- Daniel Appelquist to take lead in organizing outside contacts for TAG F2F -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN
17:15:12 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/454
17:15:38 [noah]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0008.html
17:16:14 [jar]
DKA: Not sure why not getting through
17:17:28 [ht]
zakim, q+ to suggest trying other routes
17:17:28 [Zakim]
I see ht on the speaker queue
17:17:38 [jar]
DKA: JAR made a suggestion, but I would like more information
17:18:36 [jar]
(discussion of who, and how to reach)
17:19:01 [ht]
ack ht
17:19:03 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to suggest trying other routes
17:19:41 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to ask Raman to set up phone at F2F
17:19:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-474 - Ask Raman to set up phone at F2F [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-10-14].
17:23:46 [jar]
topic: F2F Visitor Session
17:23:50 [jar]
(topic started above)
17:24:01 [jar]
topic: TPAC meeting with IETF
17:25:20 [jar]
IETF TAG meeting at 2pm Thursday French local time
17:25:38 [jar]
jar: What's Thu vs. Fri?
17:26:19 [jar]
noah: Fri was Norm Walsh
17:28:16 [jar]
noah: JAR please work with Yves to decide whether a phone is needed.
17:28:20 [masinter]
suggest for IETF meeting reviewing MIME and Web, IRI, other liaison issues, way forward in IETF
17:28:37 [masinter]
maybe post agenda on W3C/IETF liaison list?
17:29:01 [Yves]
websec as well
17:29:09 [Yves]
(new name for hasmat)
17:29:29 [jar]
topic: HTML 5 / Distributed Extensibility
17:29:43 [jar]
issue-41?
17:29:43 [trackbot]
ISSUE-41 -- What are good practices for designing extensible languages and for handling versioning? -- open
17:29:43 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/41
17:29:51 [noah]
ACTON-473?
17:29:55 [noah]
ACTION-473?
17:29:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-473 -- Noah Mendelsohn to draft possible TAG response on HTML extensibility -- due 2010-10-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:29:55 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/473
17:30:34 [noah]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0007.html
17:30:34 [jar]
noah: HTML WG is running a survey , "like SVG" vs. "no edit"
17:31:00 [jar]
noah: looking for go-ahead to send email [linked above]
17:32:47 [jar]
(jar was reading email and missed HT's comment. sorry)
17:32:53 [jar]
s/email/the email/
17:33:50 [jar]
ht: Should we say something pointed and contrary, as opposed to a general purpose "we prefer DE" criticism? (scribe uncertainty)
17:34:44 [masinter]
a stronger statement might also call for continued, serious, additional W3C work on DE, independently of what HTML WG can agree to for HTML5 LC
17:35:06 [timbl]
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17:35:14 [noah]
Larry, do you have a proposed sentence? There is value in getting this now to a point where we can approve.
17:35:58 [noah]
The note says in para #1" two options for HTML extensibility, the options being known
17:35:58 [noah]
> informally as "like SVG" [2] and "zero edit" [3]
17:36:12 [noah]
I think that covers it for our purposes: we can use those terms in the remainder of the note.
17:36:27 [ht]
We thing the like-SVG proposal not only provides the basis for DE, it has the advantage of doing so in a way which makes good use of the already-in-place support for namespaces in the DOM, while placing virtually all the burden of using the proposed mechanism on those who chose to use it, since namespace-awareness is already necessary for SVG and MathML.
17:37:14 [noah]
We thing the like-SVG proposal provides the basis for DE placing virtually all the burden of using the proposed mechanism on those who chose to use it, since namespace-awareness is already necessary for SVG and MathML.
17:38:01 [masinter]
Distributed extensibility is an important area for managing the evolution of web content: allowing vendors to experiment with additions before standardization while controlling those extensions. We understand that the details of how to accomplish this are difficult, and that "like SVG" may be the best we can accomplish for HTML at this time. However, we support continued, serious, additional W3C work on DE, independently of what can be
17:38:01 [masinter]
accomplished for HTML5 "last call".
17:38:03 [noah]
Implicitly, we believe that maintaining support for namespaces in the DOM is, on balance, worthwhile.
17:38:27 [masinter]
q+ to discuss endorsing more work rather than specifically namespaces
17:39:46 [noah]
ack next
17:39:47 [Zakim]
masinter, you wanted to discuss endorsing more work rather than specifically namespaces
17:39:54 [noah]
HT: Endorses Larry's long quote.
17:40:10 [noah]
We are about to endorse a proposal that does use namespaces. Why say more?
17:40:55 [noah]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0006.html
17:41:06 [jar]
(discussion of wording and content of email)
17:41:09 [ht]
We think the like-SVG proposal provides the basis for DE, with the additional benefit of placing virtually all the burden of using the proposed mechanism on those who chose to use it, since namespace-awareness is already necessary for SVG and MathML.
17:42:01 [noah]
On balance, the TAG believes that the "like SVG" option is far superior to
17:42:01 [noah]
"zero-edit", and we hope that it will be adopted by the HTML working group.
17:42:01 [noah]
It is, of course, a compromise in a number of dimensions, but we feel
17:42:01 [noah]
that it represents a significant positive and pragmatic step toward
17:42:01 [noah]
providing the needed extensibility.
17:42:08 [noah]
We think the like-SVG proposal provides the basis for DE, with the additional benefit of placing virtually all the burden of using the proposed mechanism on those who chose to use it, since namespace-awareness is already necessary for SVG and MathML.
17:42:15 [jar]
please remove the word "far"
17:46:38 [noah]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0010.html
17:48:40 [DKA]
I like it.
17:49:10 [jar]
noah: Draft is in my emacs buffer, but almost same as tag email linked above. What does everyone think?
17:50:28 [jar]
noah: I think there are other uses for DE [besides what LM articulated]?
17:50:38 [masinter]
ok
17:50:59 [jar]
noah: Leave out part after the colon?
17:51:14 [DKA]
+1 to leaving out the stuff after the colon.
17:52:00 [jar]
noah: Sounds like people on the call are OK with this version.
17:52:18 [masinter]
/me *** timbl (timbl@213.17.160.105) has joined channel #tagmem [10:35] ?
17:52:18 [masinter]
17:53:10 [noah]
TIM are you there?
17:53:16 [noah]
We need your input.
17:53:29 [DKA]
+1 to ht
17:53:44 [jar]
*** Note to minutes editor: tidy this up...
17:57:21 [noah]
For F2F agenda, see: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/07-agenda
17:57:33 [jar]
Noah will dispose of the email appropriately.
17:57:34 [jar]
F2F Agenda Planning
17:57:37 [jar]
topic: F2F Agenda Planning
17:57:41 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/07-agenda#F2FAgenda
17:58:20 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/10/19-agenda.html
17:59:43 [jar]
noah: What do you all think of the agenda?
18:00:17 [jar]
masinter: I need feedback on sniffing (ACTION-472) *before* the F2F. [Please.]
18:00:30 [jar]
action-472?
18:00:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-472 -- Larry Masinter to update the mime-draft, due 2010-10-12 -- due 2010-10-07 -- OPEN
18:00:30 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/472
18:00:55 [jar]
masinter: Correction: I am not hosting the IRI meeting, I'm just attending it.
18:01:27 [jar]
masinter: It's an open meeting (telecon)
18:01:40 [jar]
noah: Maybe Raman will let us stay in the room and use speakerphone there.
18:01:55 [noah]
But he's warned us likely not.
18:05:08 [masinter]
on MIME and the web document, I will have a new document submitted soon, would appreciate any new input ASAP
18:05:13 [jar]
topic: Privacy Workshop
18:05:24 [noah]
ACTION-460?
18:05:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-460 -- Daniel Appelquist to coordinate with IAB regarding next steps on privacy policy -- due 2010-10-12 -- OPEN
18:05:24 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/460
18:05:28 [noah]
ACTION-470?
18:05:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-470 -- Noah Mendelsohn to ask Thomas about TAG involvement in privacy workshop -- due 2010-09-30 -- CLOSED
18:05:28 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/470
18:05:40 [DKA]
Nothing to report on 460.
18:06:30 [masinter]
i might be interested also, in the role as TAG member
18:07:59 [jar]
DKA: Will follow up with Thomas R
18:08:13 [jar]
topic: Action items
18:08:21 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview
18:08:27 [noah]
ACTION-469?
18:08:27 [trackbot]
ACTION-469 -- Noah Mendelsohn to offer to organizers of AC to do short session answering questions and/or giving TAG status report -- due 2010-09-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:08:27 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/469
18:09:08 [noah]
Note was sent 29 Sept.
18:09:14 [noah]
close ACTION-469
18:09:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-469 Offer to organizers of AC to do short session answering questions and/or giving TAG status report closed
18:09:25 [noah]
ACTION-473?
18:09:25 [trackbot]
ACTION-473 -- Noah Mendelsohn to draft possible TAG response on HTML extensibility -- due 2010-10-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:09:25 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/473
18:09:56 [jar]
noah: Request permission to close this when the note goes out.
18:10:03 [jar]
(no objection)
18:10:04 [noah]
Overdue by person: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=due
18:10:24 [noah]
ACTION-390?
18:10:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps -- due 2010-05-25 -- OPEN
18:10:24 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390
18:10:35 [DKA]
issue-58?
18:10:35 [trackbot]
ISSUE-58 -- Scalability of URI Access to Resources -- open
18:10:35 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/58
18:11:13 [DKA]
action-434?
18:11:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-434 -- Daniel Appelquist to prepare discussion of structure of what we want to do about web apps architecture... -- due 2010-05-27 -- OPEN
18:11:13 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/434
18:11:28 [noah]
That could be important.
18:11:51 [noah]
I really want the Web apps stuff to be a main theme here (notwithstanding that we're getting a bit less writing than I had hoped)
18:13:31 [Zakim]
-ht
18:13:38 [jar]
masinter: Synchronization, security issues - I may have some input -
18:14:24 [jar]
noah: We have to do a gut check on where we're going with this web apps stuff. Action 434 tries to take this top down.
18:14:47 [jar]
... If you can give serious thought that would be great ... I would rather not schedule a session just because we said we would
18:15:10 [jar]
... can you let us know over the next week how it's coming together?
18:15:20 [jar]
DKA: sure
18:15:50 [jar]
action-390?
18:15:50 [trackbot]
ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps -- due 2010-05-25 -- OPEN
18:15:50 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390
18:16:18 [jar]
DKA: How about the F2F
18:16:39 [jar]
action-390 due 2010-10-19
18:16:39 [trackbot]
ACTION-390 Review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps due date now 2010-10-19
18:16:49 [noah]
ACTION-390 due: 2010-10-18
18:16:55 [jar]
no :
18:16:56 [noah]
ACTION-390: due 2010-10-18
18:16:56 [trackbot]
ACTION-390 Review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps notes added
18:17:03 [jar]
no :
18:17:17 [noah]
ACTION-390?
18:17:17 [trackbot]
ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps -- due 2010-10-18 -- OPEN
18:17:17 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390
18:17:45 [noah]
ACTION-434 Due 2010-10-18
18:17:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-434 Prepare discussion of structure of what we want to do about web apps architecture... due date now 2010-10-18
18:18:23 [noah]
ACTION-461?
18:18:23 [trackbot]
ACTION-461 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft "finding" on Web Apps API design -- due 2010-09-09 -- OPEN
18:18:23 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/461
18:20:35 [noah]
ACTION-461 Due 2010-10-31
18:20:35 [trackbot]
ACTION-461 Draft "finding" on Web Apps API design due date now 2010-10-31
18:20:55 [noah]
ACTION-439?
18:20:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-439 -- Daniel Appelquist to introduce signature-based approaches to access control -- due 2010-06-15 -- OPEN
18:20:55 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/439
18:21:41 [noah]
Came from June 2010 F2F: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0106.html
18:21:45 [noah]
Discussion related to widgets
18:22:26 [jar]
DKA: 439 had to do with how widgets use signatures... need to relate to the relevant widget-signature document
18:23:28 [noah]
ACTION-439 due 2010-10-14
18:23:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-439 Introduce signature-based approaches to access control due date now 2010-10-14
18:23:52 [noah]
ACTION-462?
18:23:52 [trackbot]
ACTION-462 -- Yves Lafon to write draft of best practices on redirection for secondary resources (with help from Tim) -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN
18:23:52 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/462
18:24:08 [noah]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Oct/0003.html
18:25:24 [noah]
ACTION-462 PENDING REVIEW
18:25:25 [jar]
noah: Discuss 462 at F2F?
18:25:58 [noah]
ACTION-448
18:26:14 [noah]
Yes, we agreed to discuss 462 at the F2F
18:26:19 [noah]
ACTION-448?
18:26:19 [trackbot]
ACTION-448 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html on 26 August (followup to 24 June and 12 August discussion) -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN
18:26:19 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/448
18:26:55 [jar]
Barth email on URL specs
18:27:01 [noah]
ACTION-442 Due 2010-10-12
18:27:01 [trackbot]
ACTION-442 Try and integrate NM and TVRs words into a coherent draft due date now 2010-10-12
18:27:15 [noah]
ACTION-448 Due 2010-10-12
18:27:15 [trackbot]
ACTION-448 Schedule discussion of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html on 26 August (followup to 24 June and 12 August discussion) due date now 2010-10-12
18:28:00 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/open?sort=owner
18:28:22 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner
18:28:55 [noah]
ACTION-459?
18:28:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-459 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule F2F discussion of IRIbis status and Larry's proposal -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN
18:28:55 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/459
18:29:38 [jar]
masinter: Will give a 5 minute report on where we are.
18:29:50 [noah]
ACTION-465?
18:29:50 [trackbot]
ACTION-465 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule F2F discussion of ACTION-282, "which metadata mechanisms to use when". Get reading list from Larry and www-tag. -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN
18:29:50 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/465
18:30:52 [jar]
rrsagent, pointer
18:30:52 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2010/10/07-tagmem-irc#T18-30-52
18:31:03 [Zakim]
-DKA
18:31:07 [Zakim]
-Yves
18:31:09 [Zakim]
-Masinter
18:31:09 [Zakim]
-Noah_Mendelsohn
18:31:12 [jar]
ADJOURNED
18:31:16 [Zakim]
-Jonathan_Rees
18:31:17 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:31:19 [Zakim]
Attendees were DKA, Masinter, Jonathan_Rees, Noah_Mendelsohn, Yves, ht
18:31:21 [noah]
Thank you for your patience with all the action item reviews.
18:31:46 [noah]
Jar: it would be helpful if you would send minutes by end of week? Many thanks.
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Zakim has left #tagmem
20:52:22 [Yves]
hi Tim, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Oct/0012.html
20:52:38 [Yves]
this is the text about HTML extensibility we discussed during the call
20:54:54 [timbl]
Looks reasonable to me .. got a pointer t the like-svg
20:54:56 [timbl]
?
20:55:18 [Yves]
let me find it
20:56:02 [Yves]
I was about to apste it :)
20:56:30 [Yves]
the other one being http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-41
20:57:25 [timbl]
A snag is that you have to switch with <svg> rather than just being abl to include <svg:circle>
20:57:40 [timbl]
which when peopl emix they two will be what users want
20:58:09 [timbl]
Uness one can define > 1 possible root.
20:58:31 [timbl]
I am happy for that messahe to go to the HTML WG.
20:58:55 [Yves]
thx
20:58:57 [timbl]
"An extension specification may define one or more "root elements" " -- good
20:59:04 [timbl]
>1
20:59:07 [timbl]
allowed