14:58:33 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:58:33 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/07-html-a11y-irc
14:58:35 RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:35 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:58:37 Zakim, this will be 2119
14:58:37 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:38 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:58:38 Date: 07 October 2010
14:58:59 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Oct/0297.html
14:59:05 zakim, call janina
14:59:05 ok, janina; the call is being made
14:59:06 regrets: Laura_Carlson, Denis_Boudreau
14:59:34 zakim, drop janina
14:59:34 sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
14:59:36 regrets+ Kenny_Johar
15:00:12 zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML
15:00:12 ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM already started
15:00:20 zakim, call janina
15:00:20 ok, janina; the call is being made
15:00:21 +Janina.a
15:00:26 JF has joined #html-a11y
15:00:35 zakim, drop janina
15:00:35 Janina is being disconnected
15:00:36 -Janina
15:00:46 zakim, call janina
15:00:46 ok, janina; the call is being made
15:00:48 +Janina
15:01:11 zakim, drop janina
15:01:11 Janina is being disconnected
15:01:12 -Janina
15:01:14 +Michael_Cooper
15:01:17 OK, I'll dial in
15:01:26 zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:26 On the phone I see [IPcaller], John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina.a (muted), Michael_Cooper
15:01:39 zakim, who's noisy?
15:01:45 kliehm has joined #html-a11y
15:01:50 MichaelC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (7%), John_Foliot (77%), Gregory_Rosmaita (39%)
15:01:56 + +49.699.435.aaaa
15:02:01 +Janina_Sajka
15:02:29 -Janina.a
15:02:56 zakim, IPcaller is Everett_Zufelt
15:02:56 +Everett_Zufelt; got it
15:03:01 zakim, who's noisy?
15:03:11 zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
15:03:11 Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
15:03:13 MichaelC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: John_Foliot (45%), Michael_Cooper (64%)
15:03:20 zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita
15:03:20 Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted
15:03:20 zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:21 On the phone I see Everett_Zufelt, John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita (muted), Michael_Cooper, kliehm (muted), Janina_Sajka
15:03:27 Zakim, call Mike-goog
15:03:27 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:03:28 +Mike
15:04:13 congrats to Drupal project
15:04:21 EZ: drupal 7 finally has a beta release -- a lot of work went into making D7 more accessible
15:05:13 +Rich
15:06:29 -kliehm
15:07:01 +Cynthia_Shelly
15:07:13 EZ: will be an upgrade patch from D7 beta1 from D6
15:07:33 s/from D7/for D7/
15:07:54 zakim, who is here?
15:07:54 On the phone I see Everett_Zufelt, John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, Mike, Rich, Cynthia_Shelly
15:07:57 On IRC I see kliehm, JF, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MikeSmith, richardschwerdtfe, oedipus, davidb, MichaelC, silvia, trackbot
15:08:07 regrets+ Joshue_O'Connor
15:08:13 zakim, choose a victim
15:08:13 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Janina_Sajka
15:08:20 zakim, choose a victim
15:08:20 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mike
15:08:30 +kliehm
15:09:38 Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:09:39 scribe: Rich
15:09:49 action-59?
15:09:49 ACTION-59 -- Michael(tm) Smith to check into making it possible for any HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list -- due 2010-09-16 -- OPEN
15:09:49 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/59
15:09:52 Topic: Action 59
15:09:59 have not done that yet
15:10:43 Mike: the only way to do this is to manually add the address of everybody from the HTML working group to the accept list of the accessibility task force mailing list
15:10:56 Mike: this means that anyone from the HTML working group wants to be able to post
15:11:12 MikeC: We should add people on request only
15:11:24 Mike: We can add case by case
15:12:04 it came up in several bug comments - charter currently says use public-pfwg-comments which is for PF deliverables
15:12:05 janina: We would not like to clutter up the PF comments list with discussion
15:12:23 MikeC: we could make this a world writable list
15:12:45 oedipus: there were people commenting on people with disabilities and their needs
15:13:11 oedipus: Paul Cotton made a comment on behalf of the chairs that they would like a public list
15:13:58 John: the real problem as Gregory states is that we are getting this traffic on bugzilla
15:14:03 did we rule out the public-html-comments list already?
15:14:09 Rich: agrees it is out of hand
15:14:36 Topic: do we want bugzilla output go to the list?
15:14:46 Topic: Actions
15:14:56 close action-59
15:14:56 ACTION-59 Check into making it possible for any HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list closed
15:15:05 Topic: Action 60
15:15:09 action-60?
15:15:09 ACTION-60 -- Sean Hayes to map WACG A, AA, and AAA against our checklist -- due 2010-09-22 -- OPEN
15:15:09 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/60
15:15:16 close action-60
15:15:16 ACTION-60 Map WACG A, AA, and AAA against our checklist closed
15:15:26 action-62?
15:15:26 ACTION-62 -- Gregory Rosmaita to - prepare detailed bugs against accesskey in HTML5, bugs seeking restoration of elements of accesskey from HTML4 that work and are deployed; will identify clearly whether bug refers to HTML4 or HTML5; in preparation for preparing spec ready text for accesskey; will tease out the issues pertaining to @tabindex and COMMAND element -- due 2010-09-23 -- OPEN
15:15:26 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/62
15:15:27 RESOLUTION: Action 60 closed
15:15:33 Topic: Action 62
15:15:40 close action-62
15:15:40 ACTION-62 - prepare detailed bugs against accesskey in HTML5, bugs seeking restoration of elements of accesskey from HTML4 that work and are deployed; will identify clearly whether bug refers to HTML4 or HTML5; in preparation for preparing spec ready text for accesskey; will tease out the issues pertaining to @tabindex and COMMAND element closed
15:15:43 RESOLUTION: Action 62 closed
15:15:55 Topic: Action 63 on Silvia
15:16:07 close action-63
15:16:07 ACTION-63 Create a bug on Content navigation by content structure closed
15:16:10 close action-64
15:16:10 ACTION-64 File a bug on HTML 5 for Content Navigation by Content Structure due 20101001 closed
15:16:13 RESOLUTION: Action 63 closed
15:16:15 action-65
15:16:20 Topic: Action 65
15:16:21 action-65?
15:16:21 ACTION-65 -- Judy Brewer to will review threads on getting spec text in -- due 2010-10-06 -- OPEN
15:16:21 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/65
15:16:32 Mike: I will tag those all as media
15:16:39 Topic: How to handle mail?
15:17:01 Janina: Do we want bugzilla to continue to go to the html task force mailing list
15:17:20 oedipus: I think it is a good thing
15:17:50 Janina: should we post bugzilla reports to a different list other than the task force
15:18:09 agree with JF -- there are too many HTML5-oriented lists already
15:18:17 jfoliot: too many lists
15:18:49 RESOLUTION: No We do not want to take bugzilla output off the html accessibility task force list
15:19:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:19:20 Topic: What to do with public comments that we can engage in discussions?
15:19:33 janina: what to do to prevent from being burried?
15:20:25 Rich: how about a phone call instead of thousandes of one and two sentence posts?
15:20:41 +1 to MichaelC's idea
15:21:03 michaelC: we can tie the back end database to the HTML working group but we would lose our walled garden
15:21:28 JF: who do we want to open this to?
15:21:41 cynthia: We do not want to open it up to the world
15:22:11 michaelC: If we take the approach I suggested we open it up our walled garden to the entire HTML working group list
15:22:27 oedipus: I think the most vocal people have been added
15:22:37 cynthia: They can just ask to be added
15:23:08 JF: Benjamin Hawkes Louis and Shelly Powers are interested. BHL has been added
15:23:26 JF: Either you are member of the working group or you are not
15:23:39 RRSAgent: make log member
15:23:50 RRSAgent make log world
15:24:35 janina: we want to say why we want a separate list. It is not to exclude people but to simply manage the traffic
15:24:52 RRSAgent, make log world
15:24:57 good by me
15:25:12 plus 1
15:25:55 janina: without a better suggesion we will just be repeating ourselves
15:26:08 Topic: TPAC 2010
15:26:42 I'll be at TPAC
15:26:44 janina: a fair amount of interest about doing something about our issues such as Thurs and Friday when they talk about media issues
15:27:06 Alas only November 3-5.
15:27:09 janina: of the group here who will be at TPAC?
15:27:18
15:27:38 janina: Michael, Martin, Cynthia, Janina
15:28:09 kliehm: I would like to have a talk on canvas 3D accessibility in a lightning talk
15:28:22 michaelc: are you referring to the plenary day?
15:28:47 kliehm: who would like to be in the lightning talk?
15:29:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:29:17 michaelc: lightning talks are like 2-3 minutes
15:29:46 michaelc: it is a great opportunity if you can compress it into this time
15:29:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:30:06 janina: we could wet the interest in the plenary and discuss Thursday and Friday
15:30:17 Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:30:28 cynthia: should be able to get over passport issues
15:30:47 janina: anyone else?
15:30:55 oedipus: I will attend virtually
15:31:09 oedipus: I have Mike Smith's skype address
15:31:39 Topic: longdesc
15:31:48 janina: I would like this to be short
15:32:12 janina: we want to ask for a reconsideration or a protest
15:32:30 janina: the sentiment is that this is not a done deal.
15:32:45 janina: there are some proposals on the table in terms of HTML 5
15:33:15 janina: I am aware that in PF and the Birmingham Face to Face is that we could do an aria based describedby pointing to the URI
15:33:37 janina: We are looking at a 2.0 or taking a short list of issues for ARIA 1.1.
15:33:48 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Verbose_desc_reqs HTML WG Bug 10853: HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
15:34:01 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs
15:34:03 janina: we have two issues we could do in ARIA 1.1
15:34:11 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Verbose_desc_reqs
15:34:14 HTML WG Bug 10853: HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
15:34:15 janina: this is host language agnostic
15:34:37 janina: let's throw out some ideas
15:35:13 janina: let's bring longdesc back now that we have meat our October 31 deadline
15:35:24 oedipus: I have opened bug 10853
15:35:26 +q
15:36:00 oedipus: we could put in a native describedby
15:36:33 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs
15:36:54 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs#Satisfying_These_Requirements_for_HTML5
15:37:15 cynthia: do we want a mechanism like this to be around?
15:37:18 GJR says we addressed this over a year and a half ago - it is the HTML WG's failure to accomodate our requests/requirements
15:37:41 janina: there seems to be a lot of interest around to keep it
15:38:03 q+ to say that politically, we can't allow chairs to simply remove something previously added for a11y without them proposing an alternate mechanism
15:38:05 q?
15:38:09 ack JF
15:38:16 q?
15:38:17 cynthia: I don't know there is a consensus to escalate a bug
15:38:29 JF: I don't think is the most important thing we need to do
15:38:32 http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/research/ld.html
15:38:55 JF: Laura Carlson has been continuing to post the research but did get frustrated
15:39:09 JF: we all know the list
15:39:13 q+
15:39:31 JF: we believe that we have to address backward compatibility
15:39:46 ack oe
15:39:46 oedipus, you wanted to say that politically, we can't allow chairs to simply remove something previously added for a11y without them proposing an alternate mechanism
15:39:49 cynthia: I want to make sure we have concensus going forward
15:39:59 q?
15:40:19 +1 to GJR
15:40:19 oedipus: this is a bigger issue than just one element
15:40:26 janina, note richardschwerdtfe on the queue
15:42:18 RS: this is a general strategy discussion -- concerned about wasting cycles adding elements into HTML where ARIA already suffices; we can address this issue -- describedby can be discussed out-of-context -- so many other things to work on -- wouldn't open new bugs for things supported by ARIA -- if can get 1.0 out the door, doing ARIA 1.1 would be place for changes/development
15:42:32 will ARIA 1.1 be ready by the time HTML5 reaches CR?
15:42:45 TOPIC: Follow-Up on CANVAS
15:42:54 topic: canvas
15:43:03 JS: HTML chairs have taken up our resolution and chaals' --
15:43:17 JS: how to rephrase or drop or synthesize
15:43:25 JS: adom is history - so no queries on adom
15:43:30 CS: adom is in the spec
15:43:44 CS: adom in spec and in major UA
15:44:07 RS: when have DOM have to have 1-to-1 mapping to user interface
15:44:25 RS: second option: @nonav -- if only way subtree is used, then we are done
15:44:36 CS: @nonav is nice to have but not a priority
15:44:41 RS: think we got what we want
15:45:39 RS: third issue: what to do with chaals' proposal - whoever drives this, has to be prepared to be in month-long (at least) fight with editor on getting IMAP in CANVAS - gives shortcuts for automatic drawing, but question worth effort - does anyone want to take on the battle?
15:45:51 CS: anyone talked to chaals?
15:45:56 RS: asked him to drive through
15:46:06 RS: would leave to JS and MS to assign
15:46:27 JS: appropriate for him to drive his canvas proposal
15:46:54 JS: concern is more precise: the chairs drafted set of 5 questions with which to run a survey - got sense they are not the right 5 questions
15:47:16 JS: mechanism will be a series of questions -- need to ensure the right questions are asked -- will start from survey
15:47:41 CS: questions are fine - number 4 is counter-proposal to number 1
15:47:57 CS: 1 question is "get rid of adom?" -- we should give a resounding NO
15:48:32 RS: no problem with @nonav being dropped; hixie's suggestions do nothing to address issue; is a counter-proposal
15:49:06 RS: concern: frankO and i work on caret and select tracking - doesn't need to be put to vote yet -- need to work out RTE issues
15:49:17 RS: dave singer agreed -- putting up for vote bad idea
15:49:24 CS: too early to vote on 1
15:49:49 q+
15:50:07 CS: ton of work to be done -- if say too early, chairs will say too late -- how to convince -- what is timeline?
15:50:42 RS: have that issue, but hixie asked us to create 2 more things that obfuscate issue -- want magnification support, waiting on james graham to respond
15:50:49 RS: hixie has muddied the waters
15:50:57 CS: chairs trying to clear air, rather than water
15:51:07 CS: too early to vote on magnification, when can we?
15:51:18 RS: can't push a canvas RTE in a week
15:51:25 CS: when can it be turned out?
15:51:32 RS: before the end of the year
15:51:39 ack rich
15:51:52 CS: sounds like answer is december 2010
15:52:07 RS: problem: more than RTE we need to look at -- have to support RTE and magnification
15:52:29 RS: solves problem of not having adom and nonav discussion
15:53:14 CS: tactically, vote on adom nonav, imap but not number 4 (hixie's suggestion)
15:53:20 JS: thanks for clarity CS
15:53:26 q?
15:53:45 CS: rich, work on magnification and caret issues -- if chaals wants to push his issue that's up to him
15:54:00 RS: hixie's suggestion has nothing to do with magnification - what is it a counterproposal for?
15:54:19 CS: deals with sub-issue in number 1 about cursor tracking -- bad counter proposal, but not separate issue
15:54:26 RS: go for it
15:55:02