15:24:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov-xg
15:24:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-prov-xg-irc
15:24:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:24:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 98765
15:24:21 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start 24 minutes ago
15:24:22 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
15:24:22 <trackbot> Date: 01 October 2010
15:24:35 <YolandaGil> Zakim, this will be inc_provxg
15:24:35 <Zakim> ok, YolandaGil, I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM already started
15:27:31 <pgroth> i think it's interesting
15:27:41 <pgroth> good use of provenance
15:27:48 <Luc> Am I right to say this is a use case for provenance?
15:27:56 <Jose_> looks like that!
15:28:04 <pgroth> yep
15:28:21 <YolandaGil> zakim, who is here?
15:28:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P2, ??P11, +1.217.417.aaaa, ??P15, Irini, +44.238.059.aacc, +46.6.43.0.aadd, [ISI], +1.915.603.aaee, [IPcaller], +1.216.368.aaff
15:28:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Luc, Zakim, Christine, JimM, Irini, DGarijo, afreitas, Jose_, pgroth, Paolo, YolandaGil, ssahoo2, trackbot
15:28:38 <YolandaGil> rrsagent, make logs public
15:31:10 <YolandaGil> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Recommendations_for_scenarios
15:32:47 <pgroth> +q
15:33:08 <Luc> are they in need of a standard?
15:33:15 <JimM> This seems to require that provenance be signable (Recommendation 2) and making sure that the vocabulary connecting people and attributes is consistent (ala OPM profiles)
15:37:02 <pgroth> q-
15:37:20 <JimM> Sounds like Akenti - LBNL work to let people present certs from multiple authorities to prove different required attributes...
15:37:59 <YolandaGil> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/What_Is_Provenance
15:40:23 <pgroth> +q
15:41:37 <JimM> +q
15:41:44 <Luc> +q
15:41:44 <pgroth> ack pgroth
15:42:39 <ssahoo2> Focus on a particular application domain?
15:43:58 <JimM> -q
15:44:47 <ssahoo2> q+
15:46:04 <YolandaGil> ack luc
15:46:31 <pgroth> Provenance is a record of the sources of information, including entities and processes, involving in producing or delivering an artifact.
15:46:58 <YolandaGil> provenance of an artifact is a record that captures entities and processes involved in producing and delivering that artifact
15:47:16 <pgroth> that's pretty good
15:48:19 <Luc> I like it too
15:48:28 <JimM> (producing and delivering suggest intent and may not cover natural events - the lightning produced/delivered a broken tree)
15:48:33 <pgroth> http://eprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/18176/
15:48:52 <ssahoo2> q-
15:48:57 <Irini> with artifact we mean piece of data or piece of information -- I think we should be careful with the term artifact
15:48:59 <Christine> +1 for pgroth defn but note that people outside provenance may not know what is meant by artifact
15:49:10 <Luc> One comment though: some argue that the word "process" is too vague
15:49:11 <YolandaGil> provenance of an artifact is a record with metadata that captures entities and processes involved in producing and delivering that artifact
15:49:36 <pgroth> +1 for resource
15:49:38 <JimM> events might be better than processes?
15:49:42 <pgroth> very webby
15:49:54 <Jose_> much too provenance-specific lexicon can prevent people outside the community to understand the definition
15:49:58 <YolandaGil> provenance of a web resource is a record with metadata that captures entities and processes involved in producing and delivering that web resource
15:50:22 <Luc> i am not keen on event.
15:50:23 <Christine> +1 Jose 
15:50:34 <Irini> I am not keen on event. And metadata
15:50:46 <pgroth> provenance of a web resource is a metadata record that captures entities and processes involved in producing and delivering that web resource
15:50:54 <pgroth> -1 on event
15:50:55 <pgroth> :-)
15:51:04 <Luc> -1 on metadata
15:51:11 <Jose_> yeah, "event" has too many connotations
15:51:12 <Christine> -1 metadata too
15:51:12 <Irini> -1 on metadata
15:51:48 <pgroth> how do you spell that?
15:52:26 <ssahoo2> provenience
15:52:37 <Luc> OED says provenience=provenance!
15:52:45 <pgroth> yeah
15:54:00 <ssahoo2> provenance of a resource is a record of contextual metadata that captures entities and processes that influence the current state of a resource
15:54:58 <Irini> +1 for Luc
15:55:17 <Jose_> agreed
15:55:18 <YolandaGil> provenance of a web resource is a record that captures entities and processes involved in producing and delivering that web resource
15:56:25 <ssahoo2> I think producing and delivering is very specific - it should incorporate any influence
15:56:29 <pgroth> web resource = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_(Web)
15:57:56 <pgroth> Provenance is documentation of the set of artifacts, processes, and agents that have caused a artifact to be, and of the contexts of these entities. Provenance provides a critical foundation for assessing authenticity, enabling trust, and allowing reproducability and assertions of provenance can themselves become important records with their own provenance
15:58:08 <JimM>  Provenance is documentation of the set of artifacts, processes, and agents that have caused a artifact to be, and of the contexts of these entities. Provenance provides a critical foundation for assessing authenticity, enabling trust, and allowing reproducability and assertions of provenance can themselves become important records with their own provenance.
15:58:15 <ssahoo2> I agree with Jim
15:58:17 <YolandaGil> Jim proposes: Provenance is a description of how things came to be, and how they came to be in the state they are in today. Statements about provenance can themselves be considered to have provenance.
15:59:28 <JimM> this was a synthesis definition
15:59:52 <Christine> + 1 for an additional plain english defn like the one set out by Yolanda: Jim proposes
16:02:09 <JimM> involved is fine with me
16:02:30 <Irini> q+
16:02:53 <Jose_> I like "process"  :-)
16:03:08 <ssahoo2> +1 for process
16:03:26 <Christine> + describes
16:03:44 <Christine> sorry Zakim 
16:03:52 <Christine> +1 describes
16:04:48 <Irini> in the web, do we qualify a copying action that a user is doing as a process?
16:05:40 <ssahoo2> Irini, its a modeling decision - depends on the requirements of your application
16:05:56 <pgroth> i would think so 
16:06:03 <pgroth> copying is a process
16:06:43 <JimM> but we want web provenance of non-web things...
16:07:15 <ssahoo2> In the linked open data, physical world entities are modeled as resources 
16:07:31 <pgroth> but resource = what the w3c means by a resource
16:07:44 <JimM> resource is OK
16:08:03 <YolandaGil> A definition of web provenance: provenance of a web resource is a record that describes entities and processes involved in producing and delivering that web resource.  Provenance provides a critical foundation for assessing authenticity, enabling trust, and allowing reproducibility.  Provenance assertions are a form of metadata and can themselves become important records with their own provenance.
16:09:06 <Jose_> "have an effect on"?
16:09:35 <pgroth> effect implies cause
16:09:36 <JimM> influencing the existence and state of a resource?
16:09:42 <pgroth> and we are running away from causality
16:10:23 <Jose_> q+
16:10:46 <Irini> q-
16:11:38 <Luc> q+That's why "artifact" had some merit, it was resource  on the web or physical entity
16:11:50 <Luc> That's why "artifact" had some merit, it was resource  on the web or physical entity
16:13:00 <YolandaGil> A definition of web provenance: provenance of a resource is a record that describes entities and processes involved in producing and delivering or otherwise influences that resource.  Provenance provides a critical foundation for assessing authenticity, enabling trust, and allowing reproducibility.  Provenance assertions are a form of contextual metadata and can themselves become important records with their own provenance.
16:13:40 <ssahoo2> +1
16:13:52 <Christine> Thanks Yolanda!
16:13:54 <Jose_> the definition is becoming enthropic: bigger and bigger!
16:14:04 <YolandaGil> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Final_Report_Draft
16:15:05 <Zakim> -??P11
16:15:06 <Zakim> -[ISI]
16:15:06 <Zakim> -??P2
16:15:06 <afreitas> afreitas has left #prov-xg
16:15:07 <Zakim> - +1.915.603.aaee
16:15:07 <Zakim> -Irini
16:15:09 <Zakim> - +1.216.368.aaff
16:15:09 <Zakim> -??P15
16:15:10 <Zakim> - +1.217.417.aaaa
16:15:12 <Zakim> - +44.238.059.aacc
16:15:14 <Zakim> - +46.6.43.0.aadd
16:15:17 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:15:18 <Zakim> INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has ended
16:15:21 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.217.417.aaaa, +30281039aabb, Irini, +44.238.059.aacc, +46.6.43.0.aadd, [ISI], +1.915.603.aaee, [IPcaller], +1.216.368.aaff
16:15:49 <YolandaGil> We'll discuss the final report draft next week
16:18:00 <YolandaGil> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:18:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-prov-xg-minutes.html YolandaGil
16:18:20 <YolandaGil> rrsagent, set log public
16:18:28 <YolandaGil> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:18:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-prov-xg-minutes.html YolandaGil
16:18:39 <YolandaGil> trackbot, end telcon
16:18:39 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:18:39 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:18:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:18:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-prov-xg-minutes.html trackbot
16:18:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:18:41 <RRSAgent> I see no action items