<scribe> Scribe: Doyle

<scribe> ScribeNick: doylesaylor

Morning Shadi

<shadi> good morning!

<scribe> Chair: Shadi

Shadi: Let's get started
... We have only one agenda item this week.

How People with Disabilities Use the Web

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/scenarios#onlinestudent

Shadi: This has been updated, based upon several inputs. We discussed on the last week or two. In particular on auditory disabilities, and also how people use the web. There have been some update in the first paragraph. From Sylvie, does Ms. Martinez use sign language or not. She learns sign language and fluent in written language.

<yeliz> I agree it's fine

Andrew: I think that is fine Shadi. That addresses the discussion from last week.

<yeliz> I am Ok with with change

<LiamM> +q to ask about styling for acronym

Liam: the CART acronym, do we have a visual styling for that?

Shadi: I believe we don't have a specific style for acronyms, but we have a definition for key words. I wonder if this a term for definition?

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/training/accessible

Liam: I think it would be useful for a key to access.

<Zakim> LiamM, you wanted to ask about styling for acronym

Shadi: see the link their CART is actually link throughout the article as a link to the definition. I will take that up as an action. That is an unusual term here. It will be explained in the Web Browsing methods, but maybe need to explain here also.

<shadi> ACTION: consider linking CART to definition [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action01]

Liam: that would be ok.

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/disabilities

Shadi: the main parts of this discussion how PWD use the web. There have been some editorial changes, below the first part, the categories and entries of disabilities. The issue was the categorization was a bit of issue. Sometimes according the medical terms, and sometimes to functional terms. We to take another path. Auditory, Cognitive and neurological categories have been put together, and physical put into higher levels.

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/disabilities#auditory

Shadi: with so many different types of cognitive disabilities there are so many different types it is not clear why we don't have some and others. Let's have a look at the first section. Auditory disabilities. This has a couple of paragraphs of auditory disabilities barriers, then resources, comments.

Ian: on the second paragraph, reads...seems a bit unwieldy to me. The second part provide means to adjust the volume. Do we know any media players do that in the wild? Developers may not have good examples?

Liam: turn off the music in the background environment?

<shadi> ACTION: consider s/media players that display captions provided for audio contentmedia players that display captions provided for audio content/media players that display captions for audio content (remove provided) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action02]

Ian: is there an example of that. Not a straight forward thing to do. From a developers perspective, they can't distinguish between forground and background tracks. Say something more than do this but have something to illustrate how to do this.

Shadi: require media players and web site applications something like that?

Ian: I don't think that says how to do that. If I was developing a web site like a MPS file or a movie file, and that's all I would get, and I wouldn't know how to do that.

Liam: the only thing I know is outside the developer can't control that.

Ian: I want to keep this in but it be practical piece of advice also.

Shadi: there are many sites that can turn off background music.

Ian: the problem is having two different channels you can affect the volume on. I can't think of a single example on the web.

Liam: I think I agree.

Ian: I don't think we can have a practical example for developers so we create a catch 22.

Shadi: What about turn off background audio?

Ian: we are talking about the accessibile content being accessible.

<LiamM> http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual-audio-contrast-noaudio.html

Ian: the requirement be able to in the ideal situation be able to control the volume of the background, and otherwise to address the volume of the sound.

Shadi: so we would advise to turn off the audio, or the background with little of no noise?

<LiamM> "The background sounds are at least 20 decibels lower than the foreground speech content, with the exception of occasional sounds that last for only one or two seconds."

Ian: Yes, for the audio visual content as well for developers.

Shadi: Anything else?

<shadi> ACTION: consider splitting between what media players can do (turn off audio, adjust volume) and the quality of the audio content (as a separate point) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action03]

Shadi: I'll take a look at that. Other comments? How is this working how does this address auditory disabilities? A person new to accessibility, who hasn't heard of web sites might have barriers and solutions. Use cases?

Liam: when I train people are surprised that people can use the web. The answer is it kind of depends.

Shadi: does this explain this well. There are barriers for hearing.

Andrew: in the fourth paragraph use the example of older people?

Liam: In terms of winning hearts it doesn't do that. Often appears like unusual on the web, the developers feels the background they can forget about.

Shadi: the actual barriers are not clear enough.

Liam: I'm not sure of how to express that, but yes.

<shadi> ACTION: consider mentioning older people as an example of both hearing and visual disabilities [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action04]

Ian: An opening sentence talking about video content is more prevalent on the web and more important.

<shadi> ACTION: consider explaining more clearly the barriers for people with hearing disabilities (especially with the increase of multimedia on the web) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action05]

Liam: how well iPlayer stand up to this would be interesting.

Shadi: Comments other thoughts?
... Too much? Not necessary to be here?

Liam: third paragraph, people who use sign language are challenged by written language is difficult for people to grasp. The writing could be broken down.

<shadi> ACTION: consider simplifying the third paragraph on sign language [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action06]

Ian: content for older users, comment about one size fits all for language, sign language we discussed quite a lot. Might have users who have sign language as first language, take that documentation and use here.

Shadi: I think a lot of those discussions were a little different from here. I hope to integrate the conversations. Anything else? Jump over auditory disabilities examples, and web barriers. Comments?

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/disabilities#cognitive

Shadi: moving to the next section see link above.
... comments?

Liam: can you explain to me the cognitive neurological disabilities?

Shadi: we used to have them as separate disabilities. Neurological is the over term. Can be any disorders of the nervous system, but cognitive relates to the brain part of the nervous systems. I did not separate out but used together.

Liam: My question is because of neurological also fits into the physical section, better to talk about seizures if that is what we are talking about?
... a thought I mean.

Shadi: I wonder a better approach to mention neurological conditions in the physical disabilities section.

Liam: Yes

Shadi: does affect hear move and so forth, but neurological can have many kinds of impacts.

Liam: comes back to my original questions neurological apart from seizures?

Shadi: maybe for the ones listed here. But for example MS would be difficult to categorize, physical and cognitive impacts.

Liam: yes ok.

Shadi: sensitivities to temperature also, affecting the nervous system. I will think about this, very complicated but let me check this. I'll note here.

<shadi> ACTION: consider explaining neurlogical disabilities that are not necessarily cognitive or physical (maybe MS?) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action07]

Shadi: Comments on this section?
... does it explain sufficiently the types of barriers?

Ian: I think it does, but it is a difficult topic.

Shadi: better now?

Ian: better now.

<yeliz> I agree it's better

Andrew: I like it better now.

<LiamM> +1 better

Shadi: Let's look at the examples of cognitive and neurological disabilities. This could be endless like an encyclopedia.

Yeliz: related to examples of disabilities like learning, conceptual, all related to learning disabilities. Say learning disabilities and talk about all together?

Shadi: I think mental health disabilities is not related necessarily related to learning disabilities. Learning disabilities is a functional term. Relates to the intelligence of a person, in some countries. And in other countries is related to perception. Intellectual, perceptual, learning are categorized together. May not find this depending on their background when they look. We try to explain what those terms are actually. Listed because they h
... they are well established terms. The proposal from Yeliz to summarize intellectual perceptual under learning?

Helle: I think you should leave as is.

Liam: Leave it.

<sinarmaya> me too

<LiamM> (Liam not Ian) :)

<yeliz> To me it was not easy to see the differences

Shadi: really complex, sometimes more functional.

<yeliz> But I am OK to keep it as it is

<yeliz> I just thought it would be better to make it more concise

Shadi: Maybe I can expand the learning disabilities, instead of the first impairments say it is a functional term. Etc?

Ian: from the examples?
... we covered that in the examples. We have explained the difference in language. If we do somewhere else, I would not duplicate.

Shadi: It does say in brackets says it is learning disabilities?

Ian: we may have in the best place. Have in the main paragraph talking about different place have different meanings.

<yeliz> I was not proposing to add more explanation to do the main text

<yeliz> I think this is for editor's discretion:)

Shadi: I think we are talking about we have three groups and put into one to make more concise. Address the repetitiveness. Put the three sections into one section or the three bullets into one bullet. There is a repetition in the three bullets. The benefit is that they a distinct terms which people are looking for. That is the rationale for those three bullets. There was comments to add autism. The argument is that autism is a different kind of n

<andrew> +1

<yeliz> +1

Shadi: the benefits of accessible computers makes a huge different to people's live. That was the rationale for adding autism. I may add MS to highlight neurological, not necessarily cognitve.

Liam: yes

Ian: Yes

<yeliz> :)

Shadi: I would consider a word or two more added to explain the learning disabilities here.

Ian: where you mention blindness, there is no mention of it's relationship to learning impairments or other disabilities.

Shadi: let me check.

<shadi> ACTION: consider adding MS or another example of neurlogical disability that is not necessarily cognitive [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action08]

<shadi> ACTION: consider adding a word or two more to explain the difference between learning disabilities and the other related disabilities [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action09]

Shadi: your point Liam, the first paragraph says it can impact hearing, moving seeing, but there is not a lot of detail. But says what the other sections would say.

Ian: that would be good what we have got.

Shadi: suggestions? I will think about what you say.

<shadi> ACTION: consider explaining the link between cognitive & neurlogical and other types of disabilities (like visual) more clearly [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action10]

Shadi: Other comments?

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/disabilities#physical

Shadi: let's go ahead to physical disabilities. Not been changed from previously. We had it as an over all terms or overall description. Comments on this section?

<yeliz> Adding examples +1

Liam: put some example of physical disabilities here.

<yeliz> What about also adding the term ""Dexterity impairment""?

<yeliz> as a term that people refer to physical disability?

Shadi: yes. A little bit of the first paragraph be ok for key words in skimming?

Liam: yes, an aside rather than a more generic explanation in the paragraph.

Shadi: add to the top dexterity impairments?

Andrew: I thin dexterity is a type of general disabilties.

Liam: covered by involuntary movement like tremors?
... I thought that was covered in that passage.

<LiamM> suggest dex imp covered in " limitations of muscular control (such as involuntary movements including tremors, lack of coordination, or paralysis)"

Shadi: do we need that term dexterity impairments somewhere?
... I will have a look and some research to how often it is used, and where it is used.

<shadi> ACTION: consider mentioning "dexterity impairment" somewhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action11]

Shadi: Other comments on this section?

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/disabilities#speech

Shadi: let's move on to speech disabilities a brief section. Comments?

Liam: do you want to have examples of speech disabilities. Such as stutters, cleft palate?

Shadi: soft referencing, those categories are not usually on their own.

<shadi> ACTION: consider adding examples of speech disabilities [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action12]

Doyle: speech impairments are harder to use automation to understand.

<shadi> ACTION: consider mentioning impact of speech disabilities on voice input [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action13]

Liam: possibly Google voice.

Shadi: with a physical disability an option is to have speech input, but a voice impairment is not enough for the input.

Andrew: an accent is also difficult.

<sinarmaya> To me is not clear the 2� example: "Organizations that provide phone numbers instead of making their websites accessible". Maybe can be: Organizations that relied in phone communication and don't offer alternative ways of contact.

Shadi: revisit that. Other comments on speech disabilities?
... I think cross referencing aspect is important.
... The idea to clarify Emmanuelle? A little more? I'll take a pass at that.

<shadi> ACTION: consider clarifying "Organizations that provide phone numbers instead of making their websites accessible" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action14]

Shadi: comments?

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/disabilities#visual

Shadi: let's move to the last section called visual disabilities.

Andrew: In addition to insensitivity to colors some people have an over sensitivity to brightness. People depending on the condition you have got white background is a problem.

<shadi> ACTION: consider mentioning over-sensitivity towards color [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action15]

Liam: with tunnel vision you make a little smaller also.

<shadi> ACTION: consider s/enlarge/resize [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action16]

Shadi: we always use enlarged to make more clear has bothered me. Technically we might consider that example. Other comments or thoughts?

Liam: mixing visual and non visual orientation where orientation is difficult to understand, mixing visual and non visual navigation cues?

<shadi> ACTION: consider clarifying "Missing visual and non-visual orientation cues, page structure, and other navigational aids" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action17]

Shadi: requirement?

Liam: makes me stop reading at that point and have to think.

Shadi: I will take a note to think about. There are certain things, more specifically like skip links. Visual ones are the design like screen enlargement. Magnifies to help you orient yourself. A magnified page. Quite difficult to grasp and is not clear. Comments?

<andrew> [may be add 'glare sensitivity' as an example of brightness being a problem]

Shadi: Now that we have gone through the sections. I have some specific questions to bring in. Having put the categories together. i wonder how that title works on that page. Accessilities barriers but this page talks about more than barriers. Ideas about this page here?

<shadi> [[Accessibility Needs]]

<shadi> [[Accessibility Needs]] -- [[Technical Requirements]]

Shadi: a suggestion would be Accessibility Needs. Change to technical requirements?

<andrew> [[ disability and barriers]]

Andrew: disability barriers?

<sinarmaya> +1 for accessibility needs

<sylvie> I like needs too

shadi: the comment disability access is prominent, often the barriers come from the environment we want to move away from the disability causes the barrier.

Andrew: technical requirements would work for me.

Liam: are they requirements?
... things we are missing are I am getting hung up from moving from requirements to success criteria.

shadi: there is some agreement to change from accessibility barriers to accessibility needs.

Liam: are we talking about the heading?

Shadi: It would change in the left navigation bar, in the headings, and related resources listed on other pages. Whereever it is referenced it would be accessibility needs instead of barriers.

Liam: I'm not sure that needs are the equivalent, something like understanding accessibility barriers feels closer.

Sharron: I agree with that.

Shadi: It could work.

Liam: I am uncomfortable with the idea of disability needs.

Shadi: Ok. Other brain storms.

Liam: by using barriers it is the developers, but needs is the user. Gets the idea across that it is them that causes this.

Sharron: what you are talking about conditions for maximum access. Optimum experience.
... An enabled environment?

Shadi: right does this page do that?
... what does this page tell you?

Liam: What Sharron is great.

<yeliz> +1

Shadi: does this explain the issue of suboptimal environment.

<yeliz> I think it discusses *issues*

<andrew> and causes

Liam: I think it explains the sub optimal envrionment.

shadi: Other?

Liam: we ended up with barriers because we didn't like disabilities?

Shadi: To me it doesn't only talk about disability barriers. Media players to make the environment optimal. It does more than a page like disability barriers like a list of mark up.

Liam: what users want?

<shadi> [[what users want]]

Shadi: that is nice.
... How about accessibility requirements?

<sinarmaya> Yes, I like "what users wants"

LIam we have used already. I am uncomfortable with it because it makes it the user when the key is the fault of the developers.

<yeliz> "User Experiences"

Shadi: we want user centric?

Liam: what the page says is not exactly answering that.
... saying bases as scenarios, it is about understanding your users. Understanding your user wants, understanding your users.

<yeliz> "Understanding User Experiences?"

Liam: User diversity.

Andrew: that could work.

<sinarmaya> "diversity" and "user experience" are good terms because are the mode ;-)

Shadi: any other brainstorms?
... Ok, doesn't look like a strong candidate here. We can come back to again.

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/provisions

Shadi: Let's very quickly look at the accessibility requirements page. Liam asked if this lists requirements? Liam?

Liam: I'm not sure the word requirement is the right word. Gets away from the checkbox concept. But I'm not sure what the right word is. Improvements?

Shadi: Accessibility improvements? Hmmm.

<shadi> [[accessibility improvements]]

<shadi> [[accessibility solutions]]

Andrew: solutions?

Liam: the right word but not I'm not fond of.

<shadi> [[making stuff accessible]]

Liam: things you can do now?

<shadi> [[just do it]]

<yeliz> "Advancing Accessibility"

<shadi> [[things you can do now]]

<andrew> [[ accessibility improvements ]]

Ian: some things we cover is functionality like the keyboard.

<yeliz> Providing accessibility

Shadi: Improving accessibility or...?

<shadi> [[improving accessibility]]

<yeliz> :)

<shadi> [[providing accessibility]]

<yeliz> Supporting accessibility

<yeliz> Removing Barrriers

Shadi: any last brainstorms?

<yeliz> Removing Accessibility Barriers

Andrew: not on this one.

<sinarmaya> "what you can do"

<yeliz> If we continute to use barriers

Liam: I will stick with improvements.

Shadi: removing barriers is nice.

<sinarmaya> yes

<yeliz> For consistency it would be good I think

Liam: give an even stronger like spotting accessibility barriers, identifying accessibility barriers.

Shadi: more talks about identifying? or what?

<yeliz> Understanding accessibility Barriers -- Removing accessibility Barriers

<yeliz> Understanding accessibility barriers -- Addressing Accessibility Barriers

Liam: In order to understand disability barriers. One problem developers put in something but don't have a concept of what it feels like.

Shadi: How about remove accessibility? Remove barriers?

<yeliz> I like it as well

<yeliz> :)

Liam: I like it.

<andrew> +1

<yeliz> +1

Liam: can we change to user stories?

Sharron: I like that.

<shadi> [[User Stories]] -- [[Understaning Barriers]] -- [[Understanding Web Browsing]] -- [[Removing Barriers]]

Shadi: ok, five pages in this suite, first overview, next user, then understanding, then removing?

<andrew> [[ user scenarios ]]

Andrew: I'm a little uncomfortable with users stories. Sounds made up.

Shadi: doesn't relate to real people?

Andrew: seems more real.

<shadi> ACTION: consider chaning "scanrio x" to "mr/ms bla" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action18]

Liam: more inviting to read as well.

<yeliz> :)

<andrew> [[ Mr Lee: Online shopper with color blindness (etc) ]]

Liam: Mrs? Miss? Ms?

Andrew: People in Australia is more relaxed.

Liam: using Ms consistently makes it feel politically correct, depending upon the audience how it feels relaxed.

<yeliz> :)

<shadi> ACTION: consider using "mrs" if possible [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action19]

Shadi: further input?

Liam: one more question. Downsyndrome as a term? In the UK it is called Down's?

Andrew: wikipedia indicates it is the UK that does an apostrophe s.

<shadi> ACTION: revisit "down" to "Down's" syndrome [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action20]

Liam: Not a big deal.
... can we give the users first name?

<LiamM2> e.g. Bob Jones is a reporter...

<shadi> ACTION: consider giving users first names [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html#action21]

<yeliz> Mr. and Mrs. Smith:)

<andrew> [Australia uses Down Syndrome]

<LiamM2> Gabriella Martinez is taking several...

<yeliz> :)

Liam: it feels very formal? Out of date?

<LiamM2> Shadi Olsen attends middle school...

Shadi: used to be a more formal document. The first version.

<yeliz> :)

Shadi: now we get into spelling issues between Spanish, and Italian would be an endless discussion how to spell. That does it for today. Unless other comments?

Liam: I think it a really good document well done.

Shadi: we will be updating regularly. The last page web browsing page, some rewrite on that. Last page to go. Full version to go next week.
... thank you for your input, all the best!

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/Laim/Liam/
Succeeded: s/third section/fourth paragraph/
Succeeded: s/neurological fits/neurological also fits/
Succeeded: s/Ian: Leave it./Liam: Leave it./
Succeeded: s/diveristy/diversity/
Succeeded: s/says/indicates/
Found Scribe: Doyle
Found ScribeNick: doylesaylor
Default Present: shadi, doyle, +1.512.305.aaaa, Sharron, +44.453.946.aabb, hbj, +44.207.3.aacc, Andrew, Ian, Yeliz, Liam_McGee, +33.1.44.27.aadd, Sylvie, +666745aaee, sinarmaya, +40.39.737.aaff
Present: Doyle Sharron Helle Yeliz Andrew Ian Emmanuelle Sylvie
Regrets: Alan Shawn
Got date from IRC log name: 01 Oct 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/10/01-eo-minutes.html
People with action items: cart chaning consider down linking revisit scanrio x

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.