IRC log of rdfa on 2010-09-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:16:18 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
13:16:18 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:16:20 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:16:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdfa
13:16:22 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7332
13:16:22 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 44 minutes
13:16:23 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
13:16:23 [trackbot]
Date: 30 September 2010
13:16:32 [ivan]
Chair: Ivan
13:16:40 [ivan]
Regrets: Manu, Mark
13:58:19 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:58:19 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
13:58:20 [Zakim]
SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
13:58:22 [Zakim]
13:58:49 [Steven__]
Steven__ has joined #rdfa
13:59:10 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #rdfa
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webr3 has joined #rdfa
13:59:50 [ivan]
14:00:15 [Steven__]
trackbot, start telcon
14:00:17 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:00:19 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7332
14:00:19 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start now
14:00:20 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
14:00:20 [trackbot]
Date: 30 September 2010
14:00:21 [Knud]
Knud has joined #rdfa
14:00:37 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
14:00:37 [Zakim]
I notice SW_RDFa()10:00AM has restarted
14:00:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ivan
14:00:40 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Knud, NathanR, ShaneM, Steven__, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot
14:01:05 [Zakim]
+ +1.612.217.aaaa
14:01:08 [Zakim]
14:01:10 [Zakim]
14:01:13 [ShaneM]
zakim, aaaa is ShaneM
14:01:14 [Zakim]
+ShaneM; got it
14:01:39 [Zakim]
14:01:56 [Zakim]
+ +1.441.592.aabb
14:02:03 [ivan]
zakim, IPcaller is Knuth
14:02:03 [Zakim]
+Knuth; got it
14:02:15 [NathanR]
zakim, aabb is NathanR
14:02:15 [Zakim]
+NathanR; got it
14:02:21 [Knud]
zakim, IPcaller is Knud
14:02:21 [Zakim]
sorry, Knud, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
14:02:33 [ivan]
zakim, Knuth is Knud
14:02:35 [Zakim]
+Knud; got it
14:02:39 [Steven__]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:02:51 [Zakim]
ok, Steven__; the call is being made
14:02:59 [Zakim]
14:03:51 [Steven__]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:04:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ivan, ShaneM, Knud, NathanR, Steven
14:04:17 [ivan]
scribe: Knud
14:04:22 [ivan]
scribenick: Knud
14:05:44 [Knud]
Ivan: welcome to Nathan, we know him from the mailing list as an active contributor
14:05:59 [Knud]
...: Nathan joins as an invited expert
14:06:14 [ivan]
Topic: Issue 40
14:06:22 [ivan]
14:06:35 [Knud]
"Empty element should not create literals"
14:07:30 [ShaneM]
q+ to agree that the empty triples should be generated
14:07:35 [Knud]
Nathan: I think empty triples should be generated
14:07:36 [Steven__]
I agree
14:07:53 [Steven__]
zakim, mute shane
14:07:53 [Zakim]
ShaneM should now be muted
14:08:07 [Knud]
...: there might be situations where you _want_ an empty string, like not having a middle name
14:08:28 [ShaneM]
zakim, unmute ShaneM
14:08:28 [Zakim]
ShaneM should no longer be muted
14:08:30 [ivan]
14:08:31 [Steven__]
ack Shane
14:08:31 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you wanted to agree that the empty triples should be generated
14:08:37 [ivan]
14:08:38 [Knud]
...: this would be just moving the problem
14:08:43 [ivan]
ack ivan
14:08:53 [Steven__]
q+ Shane
14:09:31 [Knud]
ivan: it would still possible to generate an empty string with @content
14:09:52 [ivan]
ack ShaneM
14:10:16 [Steven__]
14:10:20 [Steven__]
ack Shane
14:10:30 [ivan]
ack Steven__
14:10:30 [Knud]
shane: agree with Nathan - RDFa is just another serialisation, why should there be a special case for it?
14:11:06 [Knud]
steven: I also agree. It would be wrong to not create empty literals
14:11:15 [ivan]
PROPOSED: empty elements should generate empty literals (Issue-40)
14:11:22 [Steven__]
14:11:27 [ivan]
14:11:27 [NathanR]
14:12:08 [ivan]
PROPOSED: not to accept the change request in Issue-40
14:12:09 [Steven__]
14:12:14 [ivan]
14:12:18 [NathanR]
14:12:23 [ivan]
RESOLVED: not to accept the change request in Issue-40
14:12:56 [Knud]
ivan: not formally closed, because too many active people missing
14:13:02 [ivan]
TOPIC: Issue-35
14:13:10 [ivan]
14:13:15 [Knud]
"Consider relationship between LinkTypes in RDFa and the IETF LinkType registry"
14:14:39 [Knud]
shane: there is work having to do with http headers. creating a registry for values of @rel
14:15:13 [Knud]
...: however, what we do is slightly different than usually.
14:15:30 [Knud]
...: our values of @rel are terms, and is extenable
14:15:40 [Knud]
...: hostlanguages can define their own terms
14:15:44 [ivan]
14:15:54 [ivan]
ack ivan
14:16:03 [Knud]
...: hostlanguages could worry about linking, registering, etc. those terms with the IETF
14:16:24 [Knud]
ivan: however, we plan to define a default profile (of terms) for XHTML
14:17:21 [Knud]
shane: exactly. We define terms, can look for correlations, but we should not have a dependency to the IETF
14:18:01 [ivan]
PROPOSED: RDFa does not introduce an explicit dependency on the LinkTypes registry (Issue-35)
14:18:15 [ShaneM]
14:18:18 [Knud]
14:18:18 [ivan]
14:18:20 [Steven__]
14:18:23 [NathanR]
14:18:45 [Knud]
knud: should we explain that in the specs?
14:19:25 [ivan]
RESOLVED: RDFa does not introduce an explicit dependency on the LinkTypes registry (Issue-35)
14:19:31 [Knud]
ivan: that's probably not necessary
14:20:00 [Knud]
...: it was Manu who raised this initially
14:20:16 [Knud]
shane: on a related note - this has to do with case-sensitivity of terms
14:20:27 [Knud]
...: in the IETF, they are case-sensitive
14:21:37 [Knud]
...: in RDFa core, they are case-insensitive
14:21:55 [ivan]
Topic: URI strings in literal
14:22:13 [Knud]
"Any plain literal that does not have a (possibly empty) @datatype that matches the regex for a URL MUST be treated as an IRI object in RDFa."
14:22:56 [Knud]
14:23:41 [Knud]
ivan: many people do not make a difference between URIs appearing as a literal, or as an attribute value of special attributes
14:24:53 [Steven__]
14:24:57 [ivan]
ack Steven__
14:25:58 [Knud]
steven: can we not apply a datatype to make a literal a URI?
14:26:05 [Knud]
ivan: this is not possible at the moment
14:26:58 [Knud]
...: there is currently no corresponding xsd datatype
14:27:08 [NathanR]
14:27:47 [Knud]
...: and we cannot use "anyURI"
14:28:36 [Knud]
...: there are legitimate cases where I want to have a literal, a string, which conforms to the URI spec
14:28:56 [ivan]
ack NathanR
14:29:05 [Steven__]
14:29:12 [Knud]
...: anyway, this would not help people like FB, because they won't ask their developers to use this datatype
14:29:54 [ivan]
ack Steven__
14:30:01 [ShaneM]
q+ to ask about datatypes
14:30:20 [Knud]
nathan: we should go with the common case. basically agree with the proposal
14:30:56 [NathanR]
14:31:03 [NathanR]
14:31:13 [Knud]
steven: this means that, every time we have a non-datatype string, we have to check if the string is an acceptable URI
14:31:18 [ShaneM]
fubar == xsd:anyURI
14:31:29 [Knud]
...: problem: "fubar" is an acceptable relative URI
14:31:59 [Knud]
ivan: we may have to restrict to absolute URIs
14:32:28 [NathanR]
../foo & iso: & "" (0-length-string) all == xsd:anyURI
14:32:39 [NathanR]
14:32:40 [ivan]
ack ShaneM
14:32:40 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you wanted to ask about datatypes
14:32:43 [ivan]
14:32:45 [Knud]
steven: there would still be lots of things that might be parsed as a URI. lots of string with a colon in it, for example
14:33:45 [Knud]
shane: I also see this problem. Also, we will probably need to allow relative URIs. e.g., resource="#foo", resource="picture.jpg"
14:33:45 [Steven__]
<span property=my:datatype>xsd:integer</span>ยจ
14:34:02 [Steven__]
xsd:integer would be seen as a URI
14:34:38 [NathanR]
<span property="foaf:name">nathan</span> <--- would be a valid uri ref
14:34:51 [ivan]
<meta property="og:sfdssf" content="http://....." />
14:34:52 [Steven__]
Not for an abs URI
14:35:35 [NathanR]
14:36:09 [ivan]
ack NathanR
14:36:29 [Steven__]
14:36:37 [ivan]
ack Steven__
14:36:50 [Steven__]
14:36:52 [Knud]
nathan: I also agree this is a problem. maybe less of a problem with absolute URIs
14:37:21 [ShaneM]
14:37:22 [Knud]
steven: but even absolute URIs (that are meant to be URIs) are very hard to detect
14:37:32 [ShaneM]
14:37:43 [Knud]
...: isbn:43290489fj is an absolute URI
14:38:09 [Knud]
ivan: so, we might have to agree on a family of URI schemes that have to be matched
14:40:12 [Knud]
...: is there an official registry of schemes?
14:40:26 [Knud]
shane: yes, there is the IETF scheme
14:41:00 [NathanR]
14:41:56 [Knud]
steven: but not everybody uses this registry. Like Apple.
14:42:33 [Knud]
ivan: people using unregistered URI schemes could still use the "normal" way of specifying URIs, via @resource
14:43:31 [Knud]
ACTION: shane to find reference to the IETF registry
14:43:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-38 - Find reference to the IETF registry [on Shane McCarron - due 2010-10-07].
14:43:35 [ShaneM]
Information on registring URI schemes:
14:43:49 [ShaneM]
ACTION-38: closed
14:43:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-38 Find reference to the IETF registry notes added
14:43:49 [trackbot]
If you meant to close ACTION-38, please use 'close ACTION-38'
14:43:58 [ShaneM]
close ACTION-38
14:43:58 [trackbot]
ACTION-38 Find reference to the IETF registry closed
14:44:50 [Knud]
steven: I would really like to find a general solution, not a hacky one
14:46:49 [Knud]
shane: we can still define a term to instruct the RDFa processor to interprete something as a URI
14:47:19 [ivan]
<meta property="og:asfasdf" datatype="rdfa:resource" content="http://sfsd" />
14:47:26 [ShaneM]
<link property='og:lala' datatype='xv:thisIsAURI'></link>
14:48:15 [ivan]
<link rel="og:lala" resource=""/>
14:48:24 [Knud]
ivan: this is probably just as difficult for the FB-esque community
14:49:05 [Knud]
nathan: it's also not backwards compatible
14:51:31 [NathanR]
14:52:25 [Knud]
shane: if the OGP had an RDFa profile, and if the profile could define that certain properties have their values interpreted as a URI?
14:53:45 [Knud]
...: so we could invoke "follow-your-nose". the definition of og:fdhskfj could specify that it's value is an rdf:resource
14:54:55 [ivan]
ack NathanR
14:54:55 [Knud]
ivan: this is impossible to define in the current framework
14:56:39 [Knud]
nathan: long-term solution: a way for properties to define their ranges as needed here
14:58:15 [ivan]
zakim, drop me
14:58:15 [Zakim]
14:58:16 [Zakim]
14:58:18 [Zakim]
Ivan is being disconnected
14:58:20 [Zakim]
14:58:22 [Zakim]
14:58:24 [Zakim]
14:58:26 [Zakim]
SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
14:58:28 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ivan, +1.612.217.aaaa, ShaneM, +1.441.592.aabb, NathanR, Knud, Steven
14:59:23 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:59:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
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