IRC log of lld on 2010-09-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:52:59 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #lld
13:52:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc
13:53:11 [TomB]
rrsagent, bookmark
13:53:11 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T13-53-11
13:53:11 [antoine]
rrsagent, bookmark
13:53:11 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T13-53-11-2
13:53:18 [TomB]
zakim, this will be lld
13:53:18 [Zakim]
ok, TomB, I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM already started
13:53:23 [TomB]
Meeting: LLD XG
13:53:23 [AlexanderH]
AlexanderH has joined #lld
13:53:26 [TomB]
Chair: Antoine
13:53:36 [TomB]
rrsagent, please make record public
13:53:56 [TomB]
I haven't done Agenda:, Previous:, or Regrets: yet.
13:54:05 [antoine]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Jun/0108.html
13:54:08 [TomB]
Gordon and I are already on the call
13:54:35 [TomB]
zakim, ??P7 is probably TomB
13:54:35 [Zakim]
+TomB?; got it
13:54:44 [Asaf]
Asaf has joined #lld
13:54:45 [TomB]
zakim, ??P8 is probably GordonD
13:54:45 [Zakim]
+GordonD?; got it
13:54:56 [antoine]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Sep/0095.html
13:55:36 [antoine]
Regrets: Ray, Annette, Lars, Bernard, Tod
13:55:48 [antoine]
rrsagent, please make record public
13:56:25 [kcoyle]
kcoyle has joined #lld
13:56:45 [Zakim]
+??P11
13:57:12 [gneher]
gneher has joined #lld
13:57:19 [Zakim]
+ +33.1.53.79.aaaa
13:57:19 [Zakim]
+??P13
13:57:29 [emma]
zakim, aaaa is emma
13:57:29 [Zakim]
+emma; got it
13:57:34 [antoine]
zakim, ??P13 is me
13:57:34 [Zakim]
+antoine; got it
13:57:47 [Zakim]
+??P14
13:57:48 [fsasaki]
fsasaki has joined #lld
13:57:48 [antoine]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:57:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see TomB? (muted), GordonD?, Asaf, emma, antoine, ??P14
13:58:58 [Zakim]
+??P15
13:59:14 [rsinger]
rsinger has joined #lld
13:59:15 [kefo]
kefo has joined #lld
13:59:23 [Zakim]
+[LC]
13:59:27 [antoine]
zakim, please draft minutes
13:59:27 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'please draft minutes', antoine
13:59:40 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
13:59:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-minutes.html antoine
14:00:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.423.463.aabb
14:00:34 [antoine]
zakim, aabb is rsinger
14:00:34 [Zakim]
+rsinger; got it
14:00:41 [rsinger]
thanks :)
14:00:51 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:00:53 [Zakim]
+??P20
14:01:15 [antoine]
zakim, IPcaller is AlexanderH
14:01:15 [Zakim]
+AlexanderH; got it
14:01:27 [monica]
monica has joined #lld
14:01:31 [marma]
marma has joined #lld
14:01:36 [Zakim]
+ +1.330.655.aacc
14:01:54 [Zakim]
+ +44.194.346.aadd
14:02:02 [marcia]
marcia has joined #lld
14:02:04 [antoine]
Scribe: Gordon
14:02:12 [monica]
aadd is monica
14:02:20 [antoine]
Scribenick: GordonD
14:02:28 [antoine]
zakim, who is here?
14:02:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see TomB? (muted), GordonD?, Asaf, emma, antoine, kcoyle?, Felix (muted), kefo (muted), rsinger, AlexanderH, gneher, marcia, monica
14:02:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see marcia, marma, monica, kefo, rsinger, fsasaki, gneher, kcoyle, Asaf, AlexanderH, RRSAgent, jneubert, antoine, Zakim, GordonD, TomB, emma, edsu, ww
14:02:39 [Zakim]
+ +46.8.46.3.aaee
14:02:52 [Zakim]
+ +49.4.aaff
14:02:55 [pmurray_]
pmurray_ has joined #lld
14:03:15 [marma]
zakim, mute me
14:03:31 [Zakim]
marma should now be muted
14:03:48 [kai]
kai has joined #lld
14:03:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.678.235.aagg
14:04:04 [antoine]
zakim, who is here?
14:04:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see TomB? (muted), GordonD?, Asaf, emma, antoine, kcoyle?, Felix (muted), kefo (muted), rsinger, AlexanderH, gneher (muted), marcia, monica (muted), marma (muted),
14:04:12 [Zakim]
... jneubert (muted), pmurray
14:04:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see kai, pmurray, marcia, marma, monica, kefo, rsinger, fsasaki, gneher, kcoyle, Asaf, AlexanderH, RRSAgent, jneubert, antoine, Zakim, GordonD, TomB, emma, edsu, ww
14:04:40 [GordonD]
TOPIC: Admin
14:04:57 [Zakim]
+??P1
14:05:03 [Zakim]
+??P0
14:05:11 [digikim]
digikim has joined #lld
14:05:15 [digikim]
hmm
14:05:16 [kai]
zakim, ??p1 is me.
14:05:16 [Zakim]
+kai; got it
14:05:28 [kai]
probably ;-)
14:05:29 [digikim]
yeah! :)
14:05:37 [jodi]
jodi has joined #lld
14:05:47 [GordonD]
RESOLVED: Accept minutes
14:05:57 [antoine]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/23-lld-minutes.html
14:06:29 [GordonD]
TOPIC: Face-to-face meetings
14:06:50 [TomB]
ack TomB
14:07:30 [antoine]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/JointMeeting2010
14:07:34 [Zakim]
+ +1.856.528.aahh
14:07:43 [jodi]
zakim: aahh is jodi
14:08:13 [GordonD]
Tom: I am working with Pete Johnston on the joint meeting with DC Architecture Forum
14:08:48 [emma]
here is the background document (from the agenda) http://dublincore.org/architecturewiki/DcamInContext
14:09:03 [GordonD]
TomB: Meeting agenda is near-final, basic outline, unless anyone wishes to add something
14:09:22 [jodi]
(also try scrolling down, there's a float drop problem in that webpage)
14:09:39 [GordonD]
ACTION: Any proposed changes to agenda, please email TomB
14:10:34 [antoine]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F_Pittsburgh
14:10:49 [Zakim]
+[LC]
14:10:50 [edsu]
Zakim, [LC] is edsu
14:10:51 [Zakim]
+edsu; got it
14:11:14 [GordonD]
Antoine: Agenda for face2face meeting under development
14:12:08 [GordonD]
Antoine: intention today is to make progress on draft agenda
14:13:47 [GordonD]
jneubert: agenda for Cologne meeting will be developed after mid-October
14:14:08 [GordonD]
antoine: Will allow output of Pittsburgh f2f to be considered
14:14:49 [GordonD]
TOPIC: Use cases and case studies - update
14:16:25 [GordonD]
Karen: Reports on progress on structuring use cases against topic list
14:16:27 [emma]
q+
14:16:40 [emma]
ack emme
14:16:46 [antoine]
zakim, ack emma
14:16:46 [Zakim]
unmuting emma
14:16:47 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:17:28 [GordonD]
emma: Need to find use cases that illustrate topics (if no use case matched so far)
14:18:01 [michaelp]
michaelp has joined #lld
14:18:22 [Asaf]
Perhaps a clarification is needed in the Topic wiki page as to what the nicks after each item mean -- people interested in the topic? People owning use cases related to the topic? etc.
14:18:39 [Zakim]
+ +1.614.764.aaii
14:18:51 [GordonD]
emma: Suggest next couple of calls discuss who is interested in each topic, and why, to fill-in gaps in use-case evidence
14:18:58 [michaelp]
Zakim, +1.614.764.aaii is really me
14:18:58 [Zakim]
+michaelp; got it
14:19:10 [michaelp]
Zakim, mute me
14:19:10 [Zakim]
michaelp should now be muted
14:19:24 [GordonD]
Karen: Spreadsheet created to match use-cases against topics
14:20:09 [GordonD]
Antoine: Useful to share with the group, and group members can confirm matches
14:20:56 [Asaf]
I volunteer to help convert it to a Wiki table. I grok wiki syntax.
14:21:58 [jodi]
it is possible to share a google doc with a mailing list, but I don't think that's the preferrred alternative
14:22:25 [GordonD]
Karen: Will export spreadsheet in csv for conversion to a wiki table
14:22:36 [Asaf]
yup
14:23:39 [emma]
q+
14:23:41 [GordonD]
ACTION: Karen to export spreadsheet, and Asaf to convert to wiki table
14:23:57 [antoine]
zakim, ack emma
14:23:57 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:26:13 [GordonD]
emma: suggest conversion of Karen's other document to wiki, link-up table to use-cases, etc.
14:26:31 [GordonD]
emma: spreadsheet is being difficult to use as number of use cases increases
14:26:53 [GordonD]
s/being/becoming/
14:27:58 [GordonD]
Karen: some topics may not have use cases, we need to identify and provide additional evidence
14:28:31 [GordonD]
ACTION: Use-case owner(s) to check table and matches
14:29:18 [GordonD]
ACTION: Topic owners to check table and think about supplying additional use-cases
14:29:52 [monica]
q+ to ask if adding topics/interests still welcome
14:30:11 [GordonD]
ACTION: emma, kcoyle, GordonD, Marcia, bvatant to structure the discussion of use cases in light of the topic list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/23-lld-minutes.html#action01]
14:30:19 [Asaf]
Repeat my earlier comment: <Asaf> Perhaps a clarification is needed in the Topic wiki page as to what the nicks after each item mean -- people interested in the topic? People owning use cases related to the topic? etc.
14:30:22 [GordonD]
-- CONTINUES
14:30:40 [emma]
q?
14:30:59 [antoine]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Topics#Nicknames
14:31:30 [Asaf]
+q
14:31:30 [monica]
zakim, unmute me
14:31:32 [Zakim]
monica should no longer be muted
14:31:36 [antoine]
zakim, ack monica
14:31:37 [Zakim]
monica, you wanted to ask if adding topics/interests still welcome
14:31:38 [Zakim]
I see Asaf on the speaker queue
14:31:42 [Zakim]
-monica
14:32:28 [emma]
observes that we have a pending action on this
14:32:34 [monica]
could you here me there?
14:32:49 [monica]
ok thanks
14:32:54 [marcia]
Could Kai introduce what he did before for user case studies?
14:32:58 [GordonD]
antoine: changing topics may cause problems for matching process, suggest any changes signalled to list as an alert
14:33:04 [antoine]
q?
14:33:12 [antoine]
zakim, ack asaf
14:33:12 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:33:20 [kai]
@marcia: what do you mean?
14:33:35 [marcia]
you did user case analysis before, how did you do?
14:33:51 [marcia]
using a topic sheet to match or...?
14:33:58 [GordonD]
asaf: clarify - what is relationship between topics and nicks (interest, action, other?)
14:34:16 [kai]
ah, ok. Yes, I did it for software development, but I am not sure if this does lead to more confusion... ;-)
14:34:33 [emma]
@asaf, initially it means that people are interested in the topics
14:35:17 [emma]
ack marcia
14:35:27 [kai]
marcia? can you speak?
14:35:44 [Zakim]
+monica
14:36:24 [GordonD]
marcia: what did Kai do with use cases previously?
14:37:02 [GordonD]
kai: abstract use cases to identify requirements, requirements then related back to use cases
14:37:17 [emma]
q+ to ask if we have to modify the use cases in the process
14:38:21 [GordonD]
antoine: need to curate use cases, especially when submitted from outside the group
14:38:33 [antoine]
s/antoine/kai
14:38:50 [GordonD]
antoine: for example, relating use cases to each other, assign to topics
14:38:57 [antoine]
s/antoine/kai
14:40:20 [GordonD]
kai: use cases may cluster hierarchically, allows abstraction to identify requirements
14:41:06 [GordonD]
antoine: use case curators should feed back to use case owners to improve clarity, etc.
14:41:18 [Asaf]
My use case is almost finished: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/User:Abartov/DraftUC -- but I can't quite find instruction on how to contribute a use case from within the group -- do I just stick it in [[Use Cases]] or do I send it to Karen or...?
14:41:46 [emma]
@asaf just stick it in [[Use Cases]]
14:42:22 [emma]
then send a message to the list to announce it
14:42:25 [antoine]
q?
14:42:55 [emma]
ack emma
14:42:55 [Zakim]
emma, you wanted to ask if we have to modify the use cases in the process
14:43:00 [GordonD]
emma: use cases may be modified during curation
14:43:34 [GordonD]
antoine: but care should be taken to preserve original meaning/intention
14:43:55 [antoine]
?
14:43:57 [antoine]
q?
14:43:58 [AlexanderH]
q+
14:44:02 [marcia]
thanks, Kai, very helpful.
14:44:19 [kai]
thanks marcia, you are welcome :-)
14:44:44 [GordonD]
alexander: where and how do we define requirements; need to be separate from topics
14:45:08 [emma]
q+ to ask if UC curation before or after F2F
14:45:15 [emma]
ack alex
14:45:48 [Zakim]
-marma
14:46:15 [GordonD]
alexander: can begin to identify/define requirements during use case curation
14:47:13 [GordonD]
antoine: f2f meeting a good opportunity to start identification of requirements
14:47:52 [GordonD]
antoine: may be difficult to do it in advance of f2f: short timescale, new use cases may arrive
14:48:25 [GordonD]
alexander: we could set up infrastructure for initial identification of requirements (ad hoc) prior to f2f
14:49:27 [jodi]
alexander: duly noted! :)
14:49:32 [GordonD]
ACTION: Alexander to create wiki page for identifying requirements
14:49:46 [antoine]
zakim, ack emma
14:49:46 [Zakim]
emma, you wanted to ask if UC curation before or after F2F
14:49:47 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:50:37 [GordonD]
emma: do we have to identify requirements as well as matching topics
14:50:45 [kcoyle]
q+
14:50:51 [GordonD]
antoine: no obligation to do so
14:51:11 [antoine]
zakim, ack kcoyle
14:51:11 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:51:52 [GordonD]
karen: may need to give topics identifiers (numbers) to make cross-referencing easier
14:52:04 [TomB]
suggest we not number them, but name them (simple handles)
14:52:10 [emma]
+1 for IDs ;-)
14:52:23 [fsasaki]
+1
14:52:33 [marcia]
+1 tomB
14:52:40 [GordonD]
+1 tomB
14:52:51 [Asaf]
Also, if the topics are Wiki headings, they are easily referenced as anchors.
14:53:02 [GordonD]
karen: need nicknames for topics
14:53:24 [kai]
+1
14:53:37 [GordonD]
antoine: be careful not to expend too much effort before f2f
14:53:51 [Zakim]
-Felix
14:54:23 [GordonD]
emma: need to do something now, to be prepared
14:54:50 [GordonD]
emma: can be incorporated into use case/topic matching process
14:54:58 [marcia]
I think some topics contain more than one in one topic line, the first thing maybe to break down
14:55:44 [GordonD]
TOPIC: Topics for LLD discussion and Use Cases (Karen)
14:55:59 [GordonD]
ACTION: Everyone to elaborate on topics in the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/08-lld-minutes.html#action08]
14:56:07 [GordonD]
--CONTINUES
14:56:32 [GordonD]
TOPIC:
14:56:36 [GordonD]
TOPIC: Wiki pages for capturing relevant links and ideas
14:57:07 [Zakim]
-pmurray
14:57:23 [GordonD]
TOPIC: Upcoming topics - FYI...
14:57:44 [GordonD]
TOPIC: AOB
14:58:45 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been TomB?, GordonD?, Asaf, +33.1.53.79.aaaa, emma, antoine, Felix, kcoyle?, kefo, +1.423.463.aabb, rsinger, AlexanderH, gneher,
14:58:50 [Zakim]
... +1.330.655.aacc, +44.194.346.aadd, marcia, monica, +46.8.46.3.aaee, +49.4.aaff, marma, jneubert, +1.678.235.aagg, pmurray, kai, digikim?, +1.856.528.aahh, jodi, edsu, michaelp
14:58:54 [Zakim]
-AlexanderH
14:58:54 [Zakim]
-edsu
14:58:54 [Zakim]
-digikim?
14:58:54 [Zakim]
-kcoyle?
14:58:55 [Zakim]
-kefo
14:58:57 [Zakim]
-jodi
14:58:59 [Zakim]
-jneubert
14:59:06 [Zakim]
-gneher
14:59:07 [Zakim]
-Asaf
14:59:09 [Zakim]
-kai
14:59:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-minutes.html GordonD
14:59:24 [Zakim]
-monica
14:59:26 [Zakim]
-michaelp
14:59:28 [Zakim]
-rsinger
14:59:30 [Zakim]
-marcia
15:00:07 [TomB]
zakim, please unmute me
15:00:09 [Zakim]
TomB? should no longer be muted
15:01:46 [antoine]
zakim, bye
15:01:46 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were TomB?, GordonD?, Asaf, +33.1.53.79.aaaa, emma, antoine, Felix, kcoyle?, kefo, +1.423.463.aabb, rsinger, AlexanderH, gneher,
15:01:46 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #lld
15:01:51 [Zakim]
... +1.330.655.aacc, +44.194.346.aadd, marcia, monica, +46.8.46.3.aaee, +49.4.aaff, marma, jneubert, +1.678.235.aagg, pmurray, kai, digikim?, +1.856.528.aahh, jodi, edsu, michaelp
15:01:55 [antoine]
rrsagent, bye
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-actions.rdf :
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Any proposed changes to agenda, please email TomB [1]
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T14-09-39
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Karen to export spreadsheet, and Asaf to convert to wiki table [2]
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T14-23-41
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Use-case owner(s) to check table and matches [3]
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T14-28-31
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Topic owners to check table and think about supplying additional use-cases [4]
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T14-29-18
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: emma, kcoyle, GordonD, Marcia, bvatant to structure the discussion of use cases in light of the topic list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/23-lld-minutes.html#action01] [5]
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T14-30-11
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alexander to create wiki page for identifying requirements [6]
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T14-49-32
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Everyone to elaborate on topics in the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/08-lld-minutes.html#action08] [7]
15:01:55 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T14-55-59