13:52:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lld
13:52:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc
13:53:11 <TomB> rrsagent, bookmark
13:53:11 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T13-53-11
13:53:11 <antoine> rrsagent, bookmark
13:53:11 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T13-53-11-2
13:53:18 <TomB> zakim, this will be lld
13:53:18 <Zakim> ok, TomB, I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM already started
13:53:23 <TomB> Meeting: LLD XG
13:53:23 <AlexanderH> AlexanderH has joined #lld
13:53:26 <TomB> Chair: Antoine
13:53:36 <TomB> rrsagent, please make record public
13:53:56 <TomB> I haven't done Agenda:, Previous:, or Regrets: yet.
13:54:05 <antoine> Agenda:    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Jun/0108.html
13:54:08 <TomB> Gordon and I are already on the call
13:54:35 <TomB> zakim, ??P7 is probably TomB
13:54:35 <Zakim> +TomB?; got it
13:54:44 <Asaf> Asaf has joined #lld
13:54:45 <TomB> zakim, ??P8 is probably GordonD
13:54:45 <Zakim> +GordonD?; got it
13:54:56 <antoine> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Sep/0095.html
13:55:36 <antoine> Regrets: Ray, Annette, Lars, Bernard, Tod
13:55:48 <antoine> rrsagent, please make record public
13:56:25 <kcoyle> kcoyle has joined #lld
13:56:45 <Zakim> +??P11
13:57:12 <gneher> gneher has joined #lld
13:57:19 <Zakim> + +33.1.53.79.aaaa
13:57:19 <Zakim> +??P13
13:57:29 <emma> zakim, aaaa is emma
13:57:29 <Zakim> +emma; got it
13:57:34 <antoine> zakim, ??P13 is me
13:57:34 <Zakim> +antoine; got it
13:57:47 <Zakim> +??P14
13:57:48 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #lld
13:57:48 <antoine> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:57:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomB? (muted), GordonD?, Asaf, emma, antoine, ??P14
13:58:58 <Zakim> +??P15
13:59:14 <rsinger> rsinger has joined #lld
13:59:15 <kefo> kefo has joined #lld
13:59:23 <Zakim> +[LC]
13:59:27 <antoine> zakim, please draft minutes
13:59:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'please draft minutes', antoine
13:59:40 <antoine> rrsagent, please draft minutes
13:59:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-minutes.html antoine
14:00:08 <Zakim> + +1.423.463.aabb
14:00:34 <antoine> zakim, aabb is rsinger
14:00:34 <Zakim> +rsinger; got it
14:00:41 <rsinger> thanks :)
14:00:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:00:53 <Zakim> +??P20
14:01:15 <antoine> zakim, IPcaller is AlexanderH
14:01:15 <Zakim> +AlexanderH; got it
14:01:27 <monica> monica has joined #lld
14:01:31 <marma> marma has joined #lld
14:01:36 <Zakim> + +1.330.655.aacc
14:01:54 <Zakim> + +44.194.346.aadd
14:02:02 <marcia> marcia has joined #lld
14:02:04 <antoine> Scribe: Gordon
14:02:12 <monica> aadd is monica
14:02:20 <antoine> Scribenick: GordonD
14:02:28 <antoine> zakim, who is here?
14:02:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomB? (muted), GordonD?, Asaf, emma, antoine, kcoyle?, Felix (muted), kefo (muted), rsinger, AlexanderH, gneher, marcia, monica
14:02:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see marcia, marma, monica, kefo, rsinger, fsasaki, gneher, kcoyle, Asaf, AlexanderH, RRSAgent, jneubert, antoine, Zakim, GordonD, TomB, emma, edsu, ww
14:02:39 <Zakim> + +46.8.46.3.aaee
14:02:52 <Zakim> + +49.4.aaff
14:02:55 <pmurray_> pmurray_ has joined #lld
14:03:15 <marma> zakim, mute me
14:03:31 <Zakim> marma should now be muted
14:03:48 <kai> kai has joined #lld
14:03:49 <Zakim> + +1.678.235.aagg
14:04:04 <antoine> zakim, who is here?
14:04:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomB? (muted), GordonD?, Asaf, emma, antoine, kcoyle?, Felix (muted), kefo (muted), rsinger, AlexanderH, gneher (muted), marcia, monica (muted), marma (muted),
14:04:12 <Zakim> ... jneubert (muted), pmurray
14:04:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see kai, pmurray, marcia, marma, monica, kefo, rsinger, fsasaki, gneher, kcoyle, Asaf, AlexanderH, RRSAgent, jneubert, antoine, Zakim, GordonD, TomB, emma, edsu, ww
14:04:40 <GordonD> TOPIC: Admin
14:04:57 <Zakim> +??P1
14:05:03 <Zakim> +??P0
14:05:11 <digikim> digikim has joined #lld
14:05:15 <digikim> hmm
14:05:16 <kai> zakim, ??p1 is me.
14:05:16 <Zakim> +kai; got it
14:05:28 <kai> probably ;-)
14:05:29 <digikim> yeah! :)
14:05:37 <jodi> jodi has joined #lld
14:05:47 <GordonD> RESOLVED: Accept minutes
14:05:57 <antoine> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/23-lld-minutes.html 
14:06:29 <GordonD> TOPIC: Face-to-face meetings
14:06:50 <TomB> ack TomB
14:07:30 <antoine> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/JointMeeting2010
14:07:34 <Zakim> + +1.856.528.aahh
14:07:43 <jodi> zakim: aahh is jodi
14:08:13 <GordonD> Tom: I am working with Pete Johnston on the joint meeting with DC Architecture Forum
14:08:48 <emma> here is the background document (from the agenda) http://dublincore.org/architecturewiki/DcamInContext
14:09:03 <GordonD> TomB: Meeting agenda is near-final, basic outline, unless anyone wishes to add something
14:09:22 <jodi> (also try scrolling down, there's a float drop problem in that webpage)
14:09:39 <GordonD> ACTION: Any proposed changes to agenda, please email TomB
14:10:34 <antoine> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F_Pittsburgh 
14:10:49 <Zakim> +[LC]
14:10:50 <edsu> Zakim, [LC] is edsu
14:10:51 <Zakim> +edsu; got it
14:11:14 <GordonD> Antoine: Agenda for face2face meeting under development
14:12:08 <GordonD> Antoine: intention today is to make progress on draft agenda
14:13:47 <GordonD> jneubert: agenda for Cologne meeting will be developed after mid-October
14:14:08 <GordonD> antoine: Will allow output of Pittsburgh f2f to be considered
14:14:49 <GordonD> TOPIC: Use cases and case studies - update
14:16:25 <GordonD> Karen: Reports on progress on structuring use cases against topic list
14:16:27 <emma> q+ 
14:16:40 <emma> ack emme
14:16:46 <antoine> zakim, ack emma
14:16:46 <Zakim> unmuting emma
14:16:47 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
14:17:28 <GordonD> emma: Need to find use cases that illustrate topics (if no use case matched so far)
14:18:01 <michaelp> michaelp has joined #lld
14:18:22 <Asaf> Perhaps a clarification is needed in the Topic wiki page as to what the nicks after each item mean -- people interested in the topic?  People owning use cases related to the topic? etc.
14:18:39 <Zakim> + +1.614.764.aaii
14:18:51 <GordonD> emma: Suggest next couple of calls discuss who is interested in each topic, and why, to fill-in gaps in use-case evidence
14:18:58 <michaelp> Zakim, +1.614.764.aaii is really me
14:18:58 <Zakim> +michaelp; got it
14:19:10 <michaelp> Zakim, mute me
14:19:10 <Zakim> michaelp should now be muted
14:19:24 <GordonD> Karen: Spreadsheet created to match use-cases against topics
14:20:09 <GordonD> Antoine: Useful to share with the group, and group members can confirm matches
14:20:56 <Asaf> I volunteer to help convert it to a Wiki table.  I grok wiki syntax.
14:21:58 <jodi> it is possible to share a google doc with a mailing list, but I don't think that's the preferrred alternative
14:22:25 <GordonD> Karen: Will export spreadsheet in csv for conversion to a wiki table
14:22:36 <Asaf> yup
14:23:39 <emma> q+
14:23:41 <GordonD> ACTION: Karen to export spreadsheet, and Asaf to convert to wiki table
14:23:57 <antoine> zakim, ack emma
14:23:57 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
14:26:13 <GordonD> emma: suggest conversion of Karen's other document to wiki, link-up table to use-cases, etc.
14:26:31 <GordonD> emma: spreadsheet is being difficult to use as number of use cases increases
14:26:53 <GordonD> s/being/becoming/
14:27:58 <GordonD> Karen: some topics may not have use cases, we need to identify and provide additional evidence
14:28:31 <GordonD> ACTION: Use-case owner(s) to check table and matches
14:29:18 <GordonD> ACTION: Topic owners  to check table and think about supplying additional use-cases
14:29:52 <monica> q+ to ask if adding topics/interests still welcome
14:30:11 <GordonD> ACTION: emma, kcoyle, GordonD, Marcia, bvatant to structure the discussion of use cases in light of the topic list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/23-lld-minutes.html#action01]
14:30:19 <Asaf> Repeat my earlier comment: <Asaf> Perhaps a clarification is needed in the Topic wiki page as to what the nicks after each item mean -- people interested in the topic?  People owning use cases related to the topic? etc.
14:30:22 <GordonD> -- CONTINUES
14:30:40 <emma> q?
14:30:59 <antoine> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Topics#Nicknames 
14:31:30 <Asaf> +q
14:31:30 <monica> zakim, unmute me
14:31:32 <Zakim> monica should no longer be muted
14:31:36 <antoine> zakim, ack monica
14:31:37 <Zakim> monica, you wanted to ask if adding topics/interests still welcome
14:31:38 <Zakim> I see Asaf on the speaker queue
14:31:42 <Zakim> -monica
14:32:28 <emma> observes that we have a pending action on this 
14:32:34 <monica> could you here me there?
14:32:49 <monica> ok thanks
14:32:54 <marcia> Could Kai introduce what he did before for user case studies?
14:32:58 <GordonD> antoine: changing topics may cause problems for matching process, suggest any changes signalled to list as an alert
14:33:04 <antoine> q?
14:33:12 <antoine> zakim, ack asaf
14:33:12 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
14:33:20 <kai> @marcia: what do you mean?
14:33:35 <marcia> you did user case analysis before, how did you do?
14:33:51 <marcia> using a topic sheet to match or...?
14:33:58 <GordonD> asaf: clarify - what is relationship between topics and nicks (interest, action, other?)
14:34:16 <kai> ah, ok. Yes, I did it for software development, but I am not sure if this does lead to more confusion... ;-)
14:34:33 <emma> @asaf, initially it means that people are interested in the topics
14:35:17 <emma> ack marcia
14:35:27 <kai> marcia? can you speak?
14:35:44 <Zakim> +monica
14:36:24 <GordonD> marcia: what did Kai do with use cases previously?
14:37:02 <GordonD> kai: abstract use cases to identify requirements, requirements then related back to use cases
14:37:17 <emma> q+ to ask if we have to modify the use cases in the process
14:38:21 <GordonD> antoine: need to curate use cases, especially when submitted from outside the group
14:38:33 <antoine> s/antoine/kai
14:38:50 <GordonD> antoine: for example, relating use cases to each other, assign to topics
14:38:57 <antoine> s/antoine/kai
14:40:20 <GordonD> kai: use cases may cluster hierarchically, allows abstraction to identify requirements
14:41:06 <GordonD> antoine: use case curators should feed back to use case owners to improve clarity, etc.
14:41:18 <Asaf> My use case is almost finished: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/User:Abartov/DraftUC -- but I can't quite find instruction on how to contribute a use case from within the group -- do I just stick it in [[Use Cases]] or do I send it to Karen or...?
14:41:46 <emma> @asaf just stick it in [[Use Cases]]
14:42:22 <emma> then send a message to the list to announce it
14:42:25 <antoine> q?
14:42:55 <emma> ack emma
14:42:55 <Zakim> emma, you wanted to ask if we have to modify the use cases in the process
14:43:00 <GordonD> emma: use cases may be modified during curation
14:43:34 <GordonD> antoine: but care should be taken to preserve original meaning/intention
14:43:55 <antoine> ?
14:43:57 <antoine> q?
14:43:58 <AlexanderH> q+
14:44:02 <marcia> thanks, Kai, very helpful.
14:44:19 <kai> thanks marcia, you are welcome :-)
14:44:44 <GordonD> alexander: where and how do we define requirements; need to be separate from topics
14:45:08 <emma> q+ to ask if UC curation before or after F2F
14:45:15 <emma> ack alex
14:45:48 <Zakim> -marma
14:46:15 <GordonD> alexander: can begin to identify/define requirements during use case curation
14:47:13 <GordonD> antoine: f2f meeting a good opportunity to start identification of requirements
14:47:52 <GordonD> antoine: may be difficult to do it in advance of f2f: short timescale, new use cases may arrive
14:48:25 <GordonD> alexander: we could set up infrastructure for initial identification of requirements (ad hoc) prior to f2f
14:49:27 <jodi> alexander: duly noted! :)
14:49:32 <GordonD> ACTION: Alexander to create wiki page for identifying requirements
14:49:46 <antoine> zakim, ack emma
14:49:46 <Zakim> emma, you wanted to ask if UC curation before or after F2F
14:49:47 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
14:50:37 <GordonD> emma: do we have to identify requirements as well as matching topics
14:50:45 <kcoyle> q+
14:50:51 <GordonD> antoine: no obligation to do so
14:51:11 <antoine> zakim, ack kcoyle
14:51:11 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
14:51:52 <GordonD> karen: may need to give topics identifiers (numbers) to make cross-referencing easier
14:52:04 <TomB> suggest we not number them, but name them (simple handles)
14:52:10 <emma> +1 for IDs ;-) 
14:52:23 <fsasaki> +1
14:52:33 <marcia> +1 tomB
14:52:40 <GordonD> +1 tomB
14:52:51 <Asaf> Also, if the topics are Wiki headings, they are easily referenced as anchors.
14:53:02 <GordonD> karen: need nicknames for topics
14:53:24 <kai> +1
14:53:37 <GordonD> antoine: be careful not to expend too much effort before f2f
14:53:51 <Zakim> -Felix
14:54:23 <GordonD> emma: need to do something now, to be prepared
14:54:50 <GordonD> emma: can be incorporated into use case/topic matching process
14:54:58 <marcia> I think some topics contain more than one in one topic line, the first thing maybe to break down
14:55:44 <GordonD> TOPIC: Topics for LLD discussion and Use Cases (Karen)
14:55:59 <GordonD> ACTION: Everyone to elaborate on topics in the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/08-lld-minutes.html#action08]
14:56:07 <GordonD> --CONTINUES
14:56:32 <GordonD> TOPIC: 
14:56:36 <GordonD> TOPIC: Wiki pages for capturing relevant links and ideas
14:57:07 <Zakim> -pmurray
14:57:23 <GordonD> TOPIC: Upcoming topics - FYI...
14:57:44 <GordonD> TOPIC: AOB
14:58:45 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TomB?, GordonD?, Asaf, +33.1.53.79.aaaa, emma, antoine, Felix, kcoyle?, kefo, +1.423.463.aabb, rsinger, AlexanderH, gneher,
14:58:50 <Zakim> ... +1.330.655.aacc, +44.194.346.aadd, marcia, monica, +46.8.46.3.aaee, +49.4.aaff, marma, jneubert, +1.678.235.aagg, pmurray, kai, digikim?, +1.856.528.aahh, jodi, edsu, michaelp
14:58:54 <Zakim> -AlexanderH
14:58:54 <Zakim> -edsu
14:58:54 <Zakim> -digikim?
14:58:54 <Zakim> -kcoyle?
14:58:55 <Zakim> -kefo
14:58:57 <Zakim> -jodi
14:58:59 <Zakim> -jneubert
14:59:06 <Zakim> -gneher
14:59:07 <Zakim> -Asaf
14:59:09 <Zakim> -kai
14:59:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-minutes.html GordonD
14:59:24 <Zakim> -monica
14:59:26 <Zakim> -michaelp
14:59:28 <Zakim> -rsinger
14:59:30 <Zakim> -marcia
15:00:07 <TomB> zakim, please unmute me
15:00:09 <Zakim> TomB? should no longer be muted
15:01:46 <antoine> zakim, bye
15:01:46 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were TomB?, GordonD?, Asaf, +33.1.53.79.aaaa, emma, antoine, Felix, kcoyle?, kefo, +1.423.463.aabb, rsinger, AlexanderH, gneher,
15:01:46 <Zakim> Zakim has left #lld
15:01:51 <Zakim> ... +1.330.655.aacc, +44.194.346.aadd, marcia, monica, +46.8.46.3.aaee, +49.4.aaff, marma, jneubert, +1.678.235.aagg, pmurray, kai, digikim?, +1.856.528.aahh, jodi, edsu, michaelp
15:01:55 <antoine> rrsagent, bye
15:01:55 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-actions.rdf :
15:01:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Any proposed changes to agenda, please email TomB [1]
15:01:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T14-09-39
15:01:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Karen to export spreadsheet, and Asaf to convert to wiki table [2]
15:01:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T14-23-41
15:01:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Use-case owner(s) to check table and matches [3]
15:01:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T14-28-31
15:01:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Topic owners  to check table and think about supplying additional use-cases [4]
15:01:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T14-29-18
15:01:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: emma, kcoyle, GordonD, Marcia, bvatant to structure the discussion of use cases in light of the topic list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/23-lld-minutes.html#action01] [5]
15:01:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T14-30-11
15:01:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Alexander to create wiki page for identifying requirements [6]
15:01:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T14-49-32
15:01:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Everyone to elaborate on topics in the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/08-lld-minutes.html#action08] [7]
15:01:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-lld-irc#T14-55-59