IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-09-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:17 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:54:17 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:54:19 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:54:19 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:54:21 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
14:54:21 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:22 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:54:22 [trackbot]
Date: 30 September 2010
14:55:31 [JF]
JF has joined #html-a11y
14:56:15 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
14:56:20 [Zakim]
14:56:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.468.aaaa
14:57:41 [kliehm]
kliehm has joined #html-a11y
14:57:50 [oedipus]
zakim, +1.650.468.aaaa, is John_Foliot
14:57:51 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+1.650.468.aaaa,'
14:57:58 [oedipus]
zakim, aaaa, is John_Foliot
14:57:58 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa,'
14:58:09 [oedipus]
zakim, 1.650.468.aaaa, is John_Foliot
14:58:09 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '1.650.468.aaaa,'
14:58:49 [oedipus]
zakim, [+1.650.468.aaaa], is John_Foliot
14:58:53 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '[+1.650.468.aaaa],'
14:59:11 [oedipus]
zakim, aaaa is John_Foliot
14:59:14 [MikeSmith]
trackbot, start meeting
14:59:16 [Zakim]
14:59:16 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:18 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot; got it
14:59:18 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
14:59:19 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:59:19 [trackbot]
Date: 30 September 2010
14:59:20 [Zakim]
+ +49.179.103.aabb
14:59:31 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike-goog
14:59:32 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:36 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:00:28 [MikeSmith]
15:00:37 [oedipus]
zakim, +49.179.103.aabb is Martin_Kleihm
15:00:37 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+49.179.103.aabb'
15:01:16 [MichaelC]
zakim, aabb is kliehm
15:01:16 [Zakim]
sorry, MichaelC, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
15:01:21 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:21 [Zakim]
I notice WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has restarted
15:01:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, ??P0, +49.179.103.aabb, Mike, Michael_Cooper
15:01:41 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P0 is Everett_Zufelt
15:01:41 [Zakim]
+Everett_Zufelt; got it
15:01:48 [MichaelC]
zakim, aabb is Martin_Kliehm
15:01:49 [Zakim]
+Martin_Kliehm; got it
15:02:29 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #html-a11y
15:03:14 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
15:03:14 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), jeanne
15:03:46 [Zakim]
15:04:35 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Everett_Zufelt, kliehm (muted), Mike, Michael_Cooper, Jeanne
15:04:42 [richardschwerdtfe]
richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:04:45 [oedipus]
zakim, choose a victim
15:04:45 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Gregory_Rosmaita
15:06:39 [JF]
scribing to be shared by JF and GJR
15:06:39 [sean]
sean has joined #html-a11y
15:07:00 [oedipus]
15:07:02 [jeanne]
topic: Keyboard access requirements
15:07:12 [oedipus]
15:07:45 [Zakim]
+ +44.154.558.aacc
15:07:45 [JF]
GR: wiki page is revision of requirements based on work from UAAG and tohers
15:07:56 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's noisy?
15:08:07 [Zakim]
MichaelC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Michael_Cooper (41%), +44.154.558.aacc (10%)
15:08:11 [MikeSmith]
oedipus, go ahead
15:08:15 [JF]
to ensure that all requirements are met in html5
15:08:18 [MichaelC]
zakim, aacc is Sean_Hayes
15:08:18 [Zakim]
+Sean_Hayes; got it
15:08:25 [Zakim]
15:08:37 [Zakim]
15:09:24 [JF]
there are 9 requirements... (GJR having computer issues)
15:10:10 [Zakim]
15:10:15 [JF]
MS: while we wait for Greg, notices that there are some new bugs that have been filed on the topic of accesskeys
15:10:51 [JF]
GJR: have been using the term of access command as it is more general than accesskey
15:10:56 [JF]
need to ensure from W
15:11:09 [JF]
AI perspective that the 9 requirements are met in html5
15:12:03 [Zakim]
15:12:15 [JF]
GJR listing the 9 requirements but JF unable to type that quickly - will ensure all 9 reqs are added to the transcript
15:13:24 [JF]
9 reqs are listed at the wiki:
15:13:39 [JF]
MS: are there any outstanding bugs that need to be filed against this?
15:13:41 [MikeSmith]
15:14:01 [JF]
GJR: need to verify that UAAG are comfortable too.
15:14:18 [JF]
MS: asking Jeanne S about UAAG's position
15:14:27 [JF]
JS: seems like the wiki page is complete
15:14:48 [JF]
MS: notes wiki has been updated recently
15:15:08 [JF]
GJR: split out as seperate issues, but also have requirments for event handler requiremetns
15:15:14 [JF]
alos on the wiki
15:15:43 [JF]
GJR: they are split of into a seperate page
15:15:55 [MikeSmith]
15:16:47 [JF]
GJR - these come from the reqs in UAAG 2.0 - need to stress these requriements
15:17:22 [JF]
MS: notes that these are not things to expect to be addressed by HTML5 per-se, as it does not mandate UI requirements
15:17:52 [JF]
MS: falls outside of the scope of HTML5 spec - browser chrome issue
15:18:04 [JF]
GJR: one of the reasons why these were split out
15:18:24 [JF]
MS: need to ensure that we have bugs recorded in bugzilla to ensure that issues are tracked
15:18:45 [jeanne]
q+ to ask what bugs will be filed based on the requirements document?
15:18:51 [JF]
MS: don't need full consensus from this group, but just to get them into the bugtracker
15:19:11 [JF]
GJR: wondering if these should be submitted as individual bugs?
15:19:24 [jeanne]
15:19:28 [JF]
MS: likely yes, specificity will be important
15:20:20 [JF]
MS: Chairs position is that if bugs are logged before Oct. 1 that show that we want to register a certain change as a pre-last call note
15:20:34 [JF]
specific changes we want to see, then file now
15:20:43 [oedipus]
q+ to ask if bugs filed as follow-up after 1 october 2010 considered LC bugs?
15:20:58 [JF]
then if further bugs are filed after Oct. 1 s clarrifications/followups after Oct. 1 then we are good to go
15:21:02 [oedipus]
ack oe
15:21:02 [Zakim]
oedipus, you wanted to ask if bugs filed as follow-up after 1 october 2010 considered LC bugs?
15:21:03 [MikeSmith]
15:21:53 [JF]
GJR: so if we cite precious bugs after Oct. 1, then we are "safe" and this is acceptable
15:22:15 [JF]
MS: are we in agreement with this requirements?
15:22:30 [JF]
seems there is no dissent
15:22:38 [Zakim]
15:22:53 [JF]
follow up with Greg if anyone has comments of additions to the main bugs that Greg will be filing
15:23:29 [Zakim]
15:23:30 [JF]
MS: notes there are other bugs to discuss today
15:23:46 [JF]
15:23:47 [oedipus]
scribenick: oedipus
15:24:55 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Draf and Drop
15:25:07 [oedipus]
MS: want to make sure we are ok on DnD bug/issue logging?
15:25:10 [oedipus]
MS: any new info?
15:25:51 [oedipus]
EZ: gez filed 2 bugs -- activate target attribute and one to make spec text more device agnostic; hixie said i don't see the exact change you want so set bug to WONTFIX
15:27:39 [JF]
JF asks if we should add the tracker issue keyword?
15:28:12 [JF]
MS: perhaps we need to try providing the sample text - if editor moves it back to WONTFIX then we can exscalate to tracker issue
15:28:26 [JF]
MS: seems that with the 2 bugts, we are OK with DnD
15:28:48 [JF]
MS: if hixie is not open to further dialog then we can accellerate this
15:28:55 [kliehm]
s/Draf and Drop/Drag and Drop/
15:29:08 [JF]
MS: are all bases covered re: bugs
15:29:10 [Zakim]
15:29:40 [MikeSmith]
jeanne, thanks!
15:29:42 [JF]
MS: are there any other issues that we need to raise, that we've not yet discussed, before Oct 1
15:29:54 [JF]
EZ: thinks it would be highly useful for a tooltip attribute
15:29:59 [JF]
wants to ask about this
15:30:27 [kliehm]
regrets+ Marco_Ranon
15:30:34 [JF]
EZ: might be better to have a specific tooltip attribute, then we can specify it better
15:30:52 [kliehm]
regrets+ Laura_Carlson
15:30:54 [JF]
MS: worth raising as a bug, yes
15:31:16 [JF]
MS: likely response is that it's late in the game, but if not now, when?
15:31:29 [JF]
MS: encourages EZ to raise the bug
15:31:57 [JF]
MS: be sure to note the differences beteen this an @title
15:32:28 [JF]
MS: this might be an element too
15:32:35 [JF]
(+1 from JF)
15:33:41 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's noisy?
15:33:44 [JF]
MS: if there are any other similar types of issues, even if we've not discussed this before, then file the bug
15:33:51 [JF]
does not require the support of the TTF
15:33:51 [Zakim]
MichaelC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: John_Foliot (70%)
15:34:10 [richardschwerdtfe]
15:34:30 [JF]
MS: no restricition on individuals filing bugs
15:34:46 [JF]
Topic: sub-team reports
15:35:26 [MikeSmith]
15:35:41 [MikeSmith]
15:36:31 [oedipus]
JF: got 2 documents that we believe are ready to be used -- first user requriments - more important is Media Accessibility Checklist - went trhough all reqs and mapped to ATAG and UAAG Level A and Level AA
15:36:31 [MikeSmith]
15:36:49 [oedipus]
JF: further refined reqs beyond what ATAG and UAAG require
15:37:03 [oedipus]
JF: must, should, may --- 1 person's take (JF's)
15:37:20 [oedipus]
JF: tried to determine how to provide guidance to implementors
15:37:32 [oedipus]
JF: effort to give good guidance as they start to roll out implementations
15:38:08 [oedipus]
JF: we would like to hjave a straw poll in TF to review MAC -- especially must,should wording and ATAG and UAAG reqs
15:38:24 [oedipus]
JF: reviewing the three pieces of text want to get into media elements
15:38:38 [oedipus]
JF: Janina sent request to public-html
15:38:59 [oedipus]
JF: we believe is useful to bring some WHAT WG text into the W3C HTML spec
15:39:17 [oedipus]
JF: javascripting -- non-controversial, so want to get into w3c spec
15:39:33 [jeanne]
jeanne has left #html-a11y
15:40:15 [oedipus]
JF: rendering -- specific timestamp format -- asking editors to sanitize text from WHAT WG to strip from specific technology (WebSRT in WHAT WG) but need placeholder text in w3c spec; use that to compare diff timestamp formats, so as to find out which meets our reqs
15:40:56 [oedipus]
JF: will be gathering evidence for each timestamp option -- if any one works but has shortcomings, we will be happy to provide suggestions
15:41:02 [oedipus]
MS: straw poll?
15:41:05 [oedipus]
JF: yes
15:41:22 [oedipus]
MS: need a little more info on questions on straw poll will be?
15:41:54 [oedipus]
JF: will do today
15:41:56 [oedipus]
MS: info from poll will be used to create followup bugs
15:43:04 [oedipus]
MS: can't perfect all bugs before 1 october 2010 deadline
15:43:06 [oedipus]
JF: will be sending note to HTML WG chairs today -- want to get all ducks in a row before discussion of specific technological options; no text in W3C spec that address these 3 issues
15:43:17 [oedipus]
JF: going to seek clarification on that from HTML WG chairs
15:43:26 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Canvas
15:44:29 [oedipus]
MS: quick assesment on canvas in prep for LC?
15:44:30 [oedipus]
RS: had a number of proposals; trying to distill down what we need to do
15:44:32 [oedipus]
RS: first thing (need a vote to close) - accessible dom proposal that allowed canvas subtree to support keyboard and a11y services
15:45:22 [oedipus]
RS: HTML5 today pretty much uses the "adom" strategy -- need to ascertain if this is the only strategy being considered
15:45:38 [kliehm]
Canvas proposals:
15:46:14 [oedipus]
RS: second: if don't want to navigate subtree but only behavior canvas elicits in subtree, can close that one -- this is behavior of canvas sub-tree and close 2 proposals; IE9 allows one to navigate the subtree -- filed bug for FF
15:47:28 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith: so we may want to have a straw poll to the group to survey agreement about closing out the "adom" and "nonav" proposals
15:48:35 [JF]
+1 to MS
15:48:40 [oedipus]
RS: once those are done; how do we then drive magnification and show visual focus; have subtree but no way to map telemagnifier so that caret can be tracked; direct 2D on windows skips drawing calls and goes straight to hardware, so at can't get into the canvas element
15:48:42 [oedipus]
RS: proposal to report caret position, blink rate, selection position to drive magnifier through api that does this -- problem: editor responded that people need drawing calls -- filed 2 bugs on that, but editor said this is too much work - no one will use canvas to do text editing; don't agree -- when people start to cloud compute, will use canvas as word processor
15:49:40 [MikeSmith]
15:49:51 [JF]
JF picks up scribing
15:50:13 [JF]
RS: there has been a lot of arguing - editor does not want to add these APIs
15:50:18 [JF]
but we cannot leave the whole
15:50:34 [JF]
Rich will work to tie this to drawing calls
15:51:23 [JF]
MS: supports the strategy - spending time talking with implementors is more valuable than trying to educate those who do not have a direct stake in the issue
15:51:40 [JF]
MS: getting feedback from moz and MS makes good sense
15:51:53 [JF]
RS: let's get something that works and move forward
15:52:27 [JF]
MS: have discussed with Chairs - still in the process of these big issues - likely that there will be clarrification bugs moving forward
15:53:04 [JF]
MS: does not believe that we need to worry about the Oct. 1 deadline here, as these are issues we have been working on prior to Oct. 1
15:53:37 [JF]
MS: so we just need to ensure that there is nothing brand new
15:53:53 [JF]
MS: but for ongoing work, there should be no issues
15:54:09 [JF]
MS: Anything about ARIA mappings?
15:54:35 [JF]
RS: notes that there is a lot of resistance to addressing things authors are doing today
15:55:06 [JF]
again we're going through a number of rounds with the editor (i.e role of image being image)
15:55:30 [JF]
RS: anticipates a number of escalations, as the editor seems to be contrary
15:55:40 [JF]
RS: even when we put out examples, editor ignores them
15:55:54 [JF]
so no point arguing back and forth, will just elevate them
15:56:26 [JF]
RS: cyns has published an API mapping document last week
15:56:51 [JF]
MS: last item, open action items
15:56:56 [MikeSmith]
15:57:01 [MikeSmith]
15:57:01 [trackbot]
ACTION-63 -- Silvia Pfeiffer to create a bug on Content navigation by content structure -- due 2010-09-29 -- OPEN
15:57:01 [trackbot]
15:57:04 [MikeSmith]
15:57:04 [trackbot]
ACTION-64 -- Silvia Pfeiffer to file a bug on HTML 5 for Content Navigation by Content Structure due 20101001 -- due 2010-09-29 -- OPEN
15:57:04 [trackbot]
15:58:27 [JF]
JF: believes those bugs can be closed, will double check and follow up with MCooper
15:58:44 [MikeSmith]
15:58:46 [JF]
MS: any other issues?
15:59:02 [Zakim]
15:59:09 [Zakim]
15:59:09 [MikeSmith]
15:59:11 [Zakim]
15:59:15 [Zakim]
15:59:20 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
15:59:20 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
15:59:21 [Zakim]
15:59:22 [Zakim]
15:59:38 [Zakim]
15:59:40 [Zakim]
15:59:40 [Zakim]
15:59:40 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
15:59:42 [Zakim]
Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, +1.650.468.aaaa, John_Foliot, +49.179.103.aabb, Mike, Michael_Cooper, Everett_Zufelt, kliehm, Jeanne, +44.154.558.aacc, Sean_Hayes, Rich,
15:59:45 [Zakim]
... [Microsoft]
16:00:56 [kliehm]
present -[+49.179.103.aabb]
16:01:11 [kliehm]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kliehm
16:01:55 [kliehm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:03:48 [oedipus]
oedipus has joined #html-a11y
16:03:56 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
16:03:56 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:04:21 [kliehm]
present+ Cynthia_Shelly
16:04:30 [kliehm]
present+ Mike_Smith
16:04:55 [oedipus]
regrets+ Kenny_Johar,Sylvia_Pfieffer,Joshue_O'Connor
16:05:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:05:31 [kliehm]
present- Mike
16:05:49 [oedipus]
chair: Mike_Smith
16:06:01 [oedipus]
present- [ +1.650.468.aaaa]
16:06:15 [oedipus]
present- [+44.154.558.aacc]
16:06:24 [oedipus]
present- [+49.179.103.aabb]
16:06:36 [oedipus]
regrets+ Janina_Sajka
16:06:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:07:39 [oedipus]
present- +49.179.103.aabb
16:08:09 [oedipus]
present- +44.154.558.aacc
16:08:20 [oedipus]
present- +1.650.468.aaaa
16:08:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:09:12 [Laura]
Laura has joined #html-a11y
16:11:53 [oedipus]
s/ACTION: 63? [recorded in
16:12:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:12:59 [oedipus]
i/GR: wiki page is revision/scribenick: JF/
16:13:27 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
16:13:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: 63? [1]
16:13:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:13:30 [oedipus]
i/JF asks if we should add the tracker issue/scribenick: JF/
16:13:43 [oedipus]
rrsagent, close action-63
16:13:43 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'close action-63', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:14:15 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'drop action', kliehm. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:14:42 [kliehm]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:14:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kliehm
16:15:01 [oedipus]
trackbot, status
16:15:39 [oedipus]
s/JF: got 2 documents tha/scribenick: oedipus/
16:16:04 [oedipus]
i/RS: there has been a lot of arguing/scribenick: JF/
16:16:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:16:53 [kliehm]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:16:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kliehm
16:17:02 [oedipus]
s/oedipust we believe are ready to be used -- first user requriments - more important is Media Accessibility Checklist - went trhough all reqs and mapped to ATAG and UAAG Level A and Level AA//
16:17:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:17:55 [oedipus]
i/JF: further refined reqs /scribenick: oedipus/
16:18:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:18:49 [oedipus]
s/trackbot, status//
16:19:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:20:13 [oedipus]
trackbot, drop action 1
16:20:13 [trackbot]
Sorry, oedipus, I don't understand 'trackbot, drop action 1'. Please refer to for help
16:20:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:24:36 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items