15:50:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
15:50:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/28-rdb2rdf-irc
15:50:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:50:32 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
15:50:34 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:50:34 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
15:50:35 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:50:35 <trackbot> Date: 28 September 2010
15:50:39 <mhausenblas> Chair: Michael
15:50:48 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Sep/0050.html
15:51:17 <boris> hi
15:51:18 <boris> ok
15:51:24 <mhausenblas> thanks!
15:52:04 <boris> ok Michael
15:59:40 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
15:59:47 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
15:59:56 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:59:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/28-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:00:03 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:00:27 <mhausenblas> scribenick: boris 
16:00:48 <juansequeda> juansequeda has joined #rdb2rdf
16:00:49 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:01:01 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:01:01 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:01:06 <hhalpin> hhalpin has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:01 <Seema> Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:03 <Zakim> + +49.153.6.aaaa
16:02:09 <Zakim> +??P11
16:02:31 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaaa is boris 
16:02:31 <Zakim> +boris; got it
16:02:35 <boris> thanks
16:02:43 <mhausenblas> Zakim, ??P11 is juansequeda 
16:02:43 <Zakim> +juansequeda; got it
16:02:45 <Zakim> +Alexandre
16:03:00 <betehess> betehess has joined #RDB2RDF
16:03:21 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:03:23 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:03:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, MacTed, boris, juansequeda, Alexandre
16:03:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see cygri, betehess, Seema, hhalpin, juansequeda, Zakim, RRSAgent, boris, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, ericP, trackbot
16:03:25 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:03:27 <Zakim> +Souri
16:03:29 <dan> dan has joined #RDB2RDF
16:03:37 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri is with me
16:03:37 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:03:37 <cygri> zakim, i am with mhausenblas
16:03:38 <Zakim> cygri was already listed in mhausenblas, cygri
16:03:41 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
16:03:52 <mhausenblas> Zakim, nunolopes is with me
16:03:52 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
16:04:17 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Ashok
16:04:37 <Zakim> + +1.512.633.aabb
16:05:19 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aabb is dan 
16:05:19 <Zakim> +dan; got it
16:06:18 <Zakim> +Seema
16:07:26 <betehess> Zakim, Alexandre has ericP 
16:07:26 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
16:08:18 <boris> PROPOSAL: 
16:08:27 <boris> topic
16:08:30 <boris> admin
16:08:40 <boris> topic: admin
16:08:44 <boris> accept minutes last meeting
16:08:46 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of last meeting, see http://www.w3.org/2010/09/21-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:08:50 <boris> (sorry)
16:09:04 <boris> +1
16:09:28 <boris> RESOLUTION: WG has accepted the minutes
16:09:33 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/open
16:09:48 <boris> TOPIC: OPEN ACTIONS
16:09:53 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:09:53 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:09:54 <Zakim> +EricP
16:09:56 <mhausenblas> ACTION-72
16:10:01 <mhausenblas> ACTION-72?
16:10:01 <trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to list issues re Datalog approach re PK, FK, etc -- due 2010-09-28 -- OPEN
16:10:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/72
16:10:09 <betehess> Zakim, ericP has left Alexandre
16:10:09 <Zakim> -ericP; got it
16:10:17 <boris> mhausenblas: 72 is done ..
16:10:32 <boris> ... ericP: are you ok?
16:10:32 <mhausenblas> close ACTION-72
16:10:35 <trackbot> ACTION-72 List issues re Datalog approach re PK, FK, etc closed
16:10:56 <boris> mhausenblas: clean up a bit the rest of the actions
16:11:05 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Hausenblas to clean up the actions
16:11:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-73 - Clean up the actions [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2010-10-05].
16:11:38 <boris> Topic: FPWD "Relational Database to RDF Mapping Language"
16:11:52 <boris> Souri: we don't have a draft yet, but working on it
16:12:19 <boris> .... copy an old SPARQL recommendation and put things there ...
16:12:26 <boris> .... to discuss sth with richard
16:12:53 <boris> .... after the discussion today, we have some content there .... html document seems working fine
16:13:06 <boris> .... should be able to be done this friday, probably something
16:13:19 <boris> ... if richard has time as well
16:13:44 <boris> mihausenblas: what part is technically stuff, and what part is the content?
16:14:12 <boris> souri: hhalpin can help with the html
16:14:48 <boris> richard: technically side, is hard to get some version control, to all have access to the cvs ...
16:15:12 <boris> richard: content side, we don't have so much yet
16:15:31 <boris> ....: we need brainstorm things, and discuss
16:15:58 <boris> souri: I have some idea what to write ... the content to provide the syntax in turtle
16:16:10 <boris> ....: then send to richard to take a look
16:16:15 <mhausenblas> Michael: will follow-up with Harry to sort out the technically issues
16:16:50 <boris> richard: among the 3 editor have to talk the number of issues for creating the language ... 
16:17:03 <boris> ....: we can use the time now, or schedule sth later
16:17:31 <boris> mhausenblas: we can take some time here ... if it won't take so longer
16:17:39 <boris> ....: use the wiki?
16:17:49 <boris> richard: I don't like the idea of using the wiki
16:17:55 <ericP> there's no misery like wiki layout misery
16:18:49 <boris> souri: we could you use the telco to discuss the schema and the example
16:19:21 <boris> ..... once we have the cvs we can use it for collaboration
16:19:58 <boris> richard: as soon as the cvs works the check-in the things
16:20:18 <boris> souri: look at the turtle syntax and xml syntax
16:20:34 <boris> .... translate xml syntax to turtle syntax and an extended example
16:20:53 <boris> .... can we discuss that today, and agree for the core content
16:21:07 <boris> mhausenblas: what wiki page?
16:21:28 <Souri> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/R2RML_Schema_in_Turtle
16:21:41 <boris> souri: url of the schema
16:21:48 <Souri> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Example_of_SQL-based_RDB2RDF_Mapping:_Revision_3
16:21:56 <boris> .... now the url of the example
16:22:05 <boris> ... extended example
16:22:32 <boris> souri: look at the schema, is very tiny ... 
16:22:40 <boris> .... is it ok or not?
16:22:53 <boris> ...: ideally to use owl .. we decided not to use
16:22:56 <boris> it
16:23:23 <boris> ....: e.g. cardinality constraint ... this requires owl, so we remove it
16:23:56 <boris> richard: can we take later it later? to what extended we need it .... for the definition of the language it doesn't matter
16:24:00 <boris> souri: I agree
16:24:05 <boris> ... to complex otherwise
16:24:10 <boris> .... later on we can decide
16:24:36 <boris> richard: questions ..... 
16:25:26 <boris> .... the terminology in the example and the schema, there are some things .... that are inspired in owl more than rdf
16:25:30 <boris> souri: examples
16:25:41 <boris> richard: for example, class map definition
16:26:07 <boris> .... rdf level, class is not defined, it is in rdfs
16:26:17 <boris> .... instance is just a resource
16:26:35 <dan> +q
16:26:40 <boris> souri: we use rdfs .... 
16:27:05 <boris> .... in your example you are using classmap
16:27:21 <boris> richard: the turtle example just translates things from xml example
16:27:32 <boris> .... stick to RDF terminology in general
16:28:01 <boris> .... be aware in which section we need upper levels
16:28:23 <boris> souri: worry about the simple idea of classes, seems to clarify things
16:28:42 <boris> .... not owl, but RDF(S) classes are simple, class and subclass hierarchy
16:29:02 <mhausenblas> q?
16:29:05 <boris> .... jump from RDF to RDF(S) is minimal, not to OWL
16:29:17 <boris> .... RDF(s) is clear to the reader
16:29:22 <mhausenblas> ack dan
16:29:59 <boris> dan: I agree with that ... this is not rdf or rdf(s) discussion
16:31:56 <boris> ....: we need to consider when we are going to be successful .... rdf community, database community .... we should be aware .... data quality?
16:32:05 <boris> (sorry not hearing very well dan)
16:32:26 <boris> mhausenblas: table of the contents?
16:32:37 <boris> souri: schema and example
16:32:47 <boris> .... every aspect of the schema has to be explain
16:33:01 <boris> .... for each class, what properties, so on
16:33:09 <boris> ... then some examples and justifications
16:33:26 <boris> .... some cases at risk, computational risks
16:33:42 <boris> .... this can be the content right now
16:33:50 <boris> ... we can improve it later on
16:34:14 <boris> richard: two parts .... one part explain what is going here
16:34:23 <boris> .... second part specific partes
16:34:44 <boris> .... what is good for, who reads this document
16:34:57 <boris> souri: notations, user guide and then some reference
16:35:23 <boris> richard: sort of one page of overview that explains the approach of the language ....
16:36:09 <boris> ....: slides from alex to take this as an example ..... sth of the query and then explain how this is translated in rdf
16:36:34 <boris> .... after we can go after the individual features, class maps, FK, PK, ..
16:37:13 <boris> mhausenlas: what is the doc about? after we read the doc what we can do?
16:37:56 <boris> richard: after reading the doc, we will be able to write R2RML docs
16:38:14 <boris> .... you can't implement the language if you can understand the language
16:38:33 <boris> mhausenblas: what we want to provide
16:38:41 <boris> richard: specification of the language
16:38:54 <boris> .... all the knowledge necessary for writing a mapping document
16:39:14 <boris> ... an implementor has to know all the of things related to the language
16:39:22 <boris> ..... not proposing an implementation
16:39:36 <boris> .... this is a reference, go to the things one by one
16:39:54 <boris> .... ideal reader, someone who really wants to learn the language
16:40:02 <ericP> q+ to say that traditionally, w3c writes for implementers
16:40:24 <boris> mhausenblas: we should provide some guidance .... not so much details ...
16:40:42 <boris> souri: looking at the sparql doc. .... 
16:40:50 <boris> .... introduction, conventions
16:41:00 <boris> .... then informative chapter
16:41:19 <mhausenblas> ack ericP 
16:41:19 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that traditionally, w3c writes for implementers
16:41:20 <boris> .... we can follow the same 
16:41:49 <boris> ericP: job 1 communicate to implementors, answers and test cases
16:42:04 <boris> .... job 2 users
16:42:25 <boris> ...: sparql doc pattern in the default mapping
16:42:34 <boris> richard: agrees to eric
16:42:42 <boris> ... one priority: how all it works
16:43:01 <boris> ... two: be readable to users ... examples, basic
16:43:11 <boris> .... for now let's focus on the first part
16:43:18 <boris> .... details of the language
16:43:38 <boris> .... later on we can explore on how to present the things to general users
16:43:56 <mhausenblas> Michael: made different experience in RDFa case (primer - http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/ , and syntax - http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/)
16:43:58 <boris> .... for now focus only on specificy later on ... 
16:44:03 <boris> ... on the job 2
16:44:15 <boris> mhausenblas agree with the approach
16:44:38 <boris> ....: not saying to have two separate documents
16:44:54 <boris> .... each section clearly specifies for whom is
16:44:56 <juansequeda> q+ to ask about experience of having different documents instead of one
16:45:25 <mhausenblas> q?
16:45:42 <boris> richard: we have to see if we can have two documents or one
16:45:42 <mhausenblas> ack juansequeda 
16:45:42 <Zakim> juansequeda, you wanted to ask about experience of having different documents instead of one
16:45:46 <boris> ... but later on
16:45:51 <ericP> also, traditionally, w3c relies on o'reilly for user-facing docs, but we've been a bit more merciful about that recently
16:45:58 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:45:58 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:45:59 <boris> juansequeda: I don't see the problem of having 2 docs
16:46:03 <mhausenblas> q?
16:46:54 <boris> richard: to souri, the basic building block in all of the different parts of the proposal ... the classmap is the basic block
16:47:49 <boris> .... about the view map .... the things written there ... I agree with SQL query ... but this not one to one map to class
16:48:12 <boris> .... dynamically computed classes .... each row map to different class
16:48:42 <boris> .... what is your opinion of this
16:48:55 <boris> souri: we should take that into account ... this is a first draft quickly
16:49:21 <boris> ...: your mechanism was a view map ..... 
16:49:35 <boris> ....: right now is not taking into account ....
16:49:52 <boris> ....: do not change the fundamental aspect, just a small aspect ...
16:50:04 <boris> ....: definition of the schema won't change a lot
16:50:32 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
16:50:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/28-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:50:34 <boris> ....: we can think on some extensions of the schema ... once we have the fundamental
16:50:55 <boris> .... let's get the first working draft, and then we can continue working on that
16:51:12 <boris> mhausenblas: continue to this subject, ok?
16:51:35 <boris> richard: totally agree with there are a lot of features to discuss
16:51:43 <boris> .... consider the time, get the basics
16:51:56 <boris> .... several features after the FWPD
16:52:30 <boris> .... this view map, can make some fundamental differences in how you think about the language
16:52:51 <boris> ..... important to have an agreement or concensus on this
16:53:06 <boris> souri: viewmap collapses into classmaps ...
16:53:49 <boris> .... use classmaps or viewmaps .... in principle we have an agreement to allow one class or many classes ... many to many rels 
16:53:54 <boris> ... more on syntax ..
16:54:09 <boris> .... we can discuss on this ... 
16:54:34 <boris> .... it's important ... but let's leave it out for now ... t
16:54:54 <boris> .... after the FWPD ... we can fix this aspect
16:55:05 <boris> mhausenblas: end of week?
16:55:13 <boris> souri: yes ... end of week
16:55:28 <boris> .... focus on completeness and then the details
16:55:52 <boris> mhausenblas: pls use the mailing list ...
16:55:59 <boris> .... to discus things
16:56:10 <boris> richard: ... in terms of process ... for now in html 
16:56:42 <boris> souri: starting working with the sparql doc and then replace things there
16:56:49 <boris> .... then send mail to the list
16:57:10 <boris> richard: working in chapter X, and the other in chapter Y
16:57:17 <boris> ... use the list?
16:57:38 <boris> .... email as version system?
16:57:44 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:57:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/28-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:58:00 <Zakim> -Seema
16:58:01 <Zakim> -Souri
16:58:04 <mhausenblas> [adjourned]
16:58:06 <Zakim> -dan
16:58:07 <Zakim> -Alexandre
16:58:07 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:58:08 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
16:58:10 <Zakim> -EricP
16:58:10 <Zakim> -juansequeda
16:58:41 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:58:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see boris
16:58:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see nunolopes, dan, cygri, betehess, juansequeda, Zakim, RRSAgent, boris, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, ericP, trackbot
16:59:03 <ericP> Zakim, please disconnect boris 
16:59:03 <Zakim> boris is being disconnected
16:59:04 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
16:59:05 <boris> I did it
16:59:06 <Zakim> Attendees were mhausenblas, MacTed, +49.153.6.aaaa, boris, juansequeda, Souri, cygri, nunolopes, +1.512.633.aabb, dan, Seema, ericP
16:59:21 <mhausenblas> trackbot, end telecon
16:59:21 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:59:21 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:59:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:59:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/28-rdb2rdf-minutes.html trackbot
16:59:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:59:23 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/28-rdb2rdf-actions.rdf :
16:59:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Hausenblas to clean up the actions [1]
16:59:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/28-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-11-05
16:59:25 <ericP> boris, yeah, but you have to really scream and slam the phone down or zakim doesn't notice