14:51:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov-xg
14:51:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/24-prov-xg-irc
14:51:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:51:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov-xg
14:51:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 98765
14:51:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
14:51:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:55 <trackbot> Date: 24 September 2010
14:51:58 <YolandaGil> Zakim, this will be inc_provxg
14:51:59 <Zakim> ok, YolandaGil; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:52:08 <YolandaGil> chair: Yolanda Gil
14:52:42 <YolandaGil> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-prov/2010Sep/0019.html
14:55:38 <ssahoo2> ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg
14:56:05 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov-xg
14:56:19 <JimM> JimM has joined #prov-xg
14:56:58 <Zakim> INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has now started
14:57:04 <Zakim> +??P0
14:57:14 <smiles> zakim, ??P0 is me
14:57:14 <Zakim> +smiles; got it
14:57:23 <smiles> zakim, mute me
14:57:23 <Zakim> sorry, smiles, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
14:57:42 <jun> jun has joined #prov-xg
14:58:34 <Zakim> +??P2
14:59:02 <JimM> zakim, ??P2 is me
14:59:02 <Zakim> +JimM; got it
14:59:32 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov-xg
15:00:06 <Zakim> +??P4
15:00:30 <Paolo> zakim, ??P4 is Paolo
15:00:30 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
15:00:35 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov-xg
15:00:48 <Paolo> zakim, mute me
15:00:48 <Zakim> Paolo should now be muted
15:01:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:01:37 <Zakim> +krp
15:01:54 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov-xg
15:01:54 <Jose_> Jose_ has joined #prov-xg
15:02:29 <Zakim> +[ISI]
15:02:55 <YolandaGil> zakim, [ISI] is really me
15:02:55 <Zakim> +YolandaGil; got it
15:03:01 <Christine> Christine has joined #prov-xg
15:03:28 <Zakim> +??P18
15:04:01 <Christine> I can scribe.
15:04:17 <Christine> But please do all the technical things for me.
15:04:18 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aaaa
15:04:28 <smiles> I'm afraid I will have to leave the call early: 4.30pm
15:04:44 <YolandaGil> Scribe: Christine
15:05:01 <Irini> Irini has joined #prov-xg
15:05:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:05:23 <ssahoo2> zakim, 1.216.368.aaaa is really Satya
15:05:23 <Zakim> sorry, ssahoo2, I do not recognize a party named '1.216.368.aaaa'
15:05:27 <jun> zakim, IPcaller.a is jun
15:05:27 <Zakim> +jun; got it
15:05:34 <Zakim> + +1.915.603.aabb
15:05:37 <Christine> Yolanda; Will discuss putting together the final report and the defn of provenance.
15:05:52 <ssahoo2> zakim, 216.368.aaaa is really Satya
15:05:52 <Zakim> sorry, ssahoo2, I do not recognize a party named '216.368.aaaa'
15:06:04 <Zakim> + +46.6.43.0.aacc
15:06:24 <Zakim> + +30281039aadd
15:06:43 <pgroth> did you see that mendeley came out with public sharing
15:06:53 <Christine> Yolanda: Paolo has been working on importing Mendelay collection to B (?)
15:06:54 <Paolo> yes
15:07:07 <YolandaGil> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Recommendations_for_scenarios
15:07:08 <Christine> Paolo: Need a protocol to keep updated.
15:07:08 <Paolo> @Paul does that mean the 10 mmbers limit is gone?
15:07:14 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov-xg
15:07:21 <Paolo> @Paul will read that again later
15:08:15 <Christine> Simon: Looked a scenario for core recommendations different to news aggregator - 2 different aspects - a procedure that has been enacted so can compare with requirements - perhaps need a standard whay to represent a procedure that has been enacted.
15:08:25 <Zakim> +??P30
15:08:36 <Christine> Simon: the second one - commonlaity of derivation of two sources - do 2 things come from the same source?
15:09:21 <Christine> Simon: Some aspects re management of provenance might go beyond what we want to recommend - but some things like selective disclosure
15:09:45 <Christine> Simon: also guaranteed usability of provenance
15:11:59 <Christine> ? Some comments to provided by email. 2nd scenario provenance of provenance but 3rd scenario might lead to a recommendation - usable as a record
15:13:22 <Christine> Yolanda: Provenance as a record - not using that exact terminology - need to be able to express the provenance of provenance - maybe refine this
15:14:31 <Christine> Is selective disclosure a recommendation?
15:14:43 <Christine> Yolanda: propose as a separate recommendation
15:15:48 <Christine> Yolanda: See recommendation 3 - I thought we agreed - 1st scenario core requirements, 2nd adds to that and 3rd adds to that - assume if in 1st scenario will be relevant to the others
15:16:28 <Christine> Discussing mechanism to show provenance has not changed
15:17:01 <Christine> Immutability vs, non-repudiation of provenance
15:17:36 <Christine> Signable provenance for non-repudiation
15:19:12 <Christine> Conclusion? - the 3 management points are already covered by recommendations 2 and 3?
15:19:20 <Christine> Yolanda: yes, 2, 3 ,4
15:20:26 <Christine>  [inaudible]
15:21:05 <pgroth> +q
15:21:07 <pgroth> q-
15:21:14 <pgroth> ack
15:21:17 <pgroth> q-
15:21:29 <Christine> Yolanda: Re disease outbreak scenario - those 2 recommendations were the major ones
15:22:28 <Christine> Yolanda: We did not discuss last week - the use of policies mentioned in the scenario
15:23:35 <Irini> q+
15:23:40 <Christine> Yolanda: This scenario highlights more data aggregation (from different sources) - should we have an item that specifically states this - provenance may be more detailed - more vocabulary may be needed?
15:25:00 <Christine> Irini: For disease outbreak scenario - important to mention data integration - database area there has been a lot of work re provenance at different levels of granularity - queries - we should look at the work done for relational databases
15:25:08 <Irini> q-
15:26:30 <pgroth> q+
15:26:34 <Christine> Yolanda: We have not highlighted time or the issue of handling different versions of information as it changes over time - wonder if it should be captured somewhere
15:27:41 <Christine> ? question about time - time of artefact may not match the time you record the provenance
15:28:44 <Christine> Yolanda: in the 2nd recommendation we mention time
15:29:06 <Christine> Yolanda: we need to be more specific which time
15:29:26 <Christine> Paolo: Need to have the distinction to work in different ways
15:29:46 <Christine> ? May be captured by recommendation 4
15:29:59 <Christine> Yolanda: We will make that more explicit
15:30:10 <Christine> Paul: related to time is the notion of versioning
15:30:23 <smiles> zakim, unmute me
15:30:23 <Zakim> smiles should no longer be muted
15:30:29 <smiles> q+
15:30:29 <Christine> Paul: Does it come up in the business case scenario?
15:30:49 <Christine> Yolanda: yes - in the last paragraph of the disease outbreak scenario
15:31:14 <Zakim> -krp
15:32:01 <Irini> q+
15:32:10 <Christine> Paul: recommendation 5 is very specific but 1-3 recommendations (coarse grained provenance) then there is versioning
15:32:28 <Christine> Yolanda: Maybe useful to have something about versioning
15:32:41 <pgroth> ack pgroth
15:32:43 <Christine> Paul: or mention versioning in the explanation of recommendation 5
15:32:53 <YolandaGil> ack pgroth
15:33:00 <Zakim> - +1.915.603.aabb
15:34:03 <Christine> ? in the OPM profile space - would argue should go out to standard ontologies
15:34:13 <Christine> re versioning
15:34:15 <Irini> q-
15:34:40 <Zakim> +krp
15:34:42 <Christine> ? business contract scenario raise versioning
15:35:34 <ssahoo2> Is there is a connection between granurality of provenance and versioning?
15:36:24 <Christine> Paul: Need to resolve what we are going to say re versioning
15:36:33 <smiles> sorry, but i'd better go. thanks, simon
15:36:39 <Zakim> -smiles
15:36:48 <ssahoo2> I think we should mention versioning explicitly in the recommendation
15:36:58 <Zakim> + +1.915.747.aaee
15:37:05 <Christine> Yolanda: If look at recommendations as they are now - we need a theme and all these would be themes - maybe provenance is important for the web and recommend pursue provenance in these ways ...
15:37:22 <Christine> Yolanda: Different priorities for recommendations?
15:37:39 <Paolo> +1 for attaching priorities
15:38:32 <pgroth> +1
15:39:01 <Christine> Yolanda: Core of provenance representations for the web? and maybe extensions
15:39:57 <ssahoo2> I think recommendation 1,2,3, and 7 have higher priority than others
15:40:14 <Paulo> Paulo has joined #prov-xg
15:41:09 <Christine> Satya: how to represent the provenance information (1) and (2) how to access provenance and (7) 
15:41:45 <Christine> Sam: Like the idea of versioning - might be good to keep manageable by prioritising them
15:42:03 <ssahoo2> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Recommendations_for_scenarios
15:42:10 <YolandaGil>  http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Recommendations_for_scenarios
15:42:36 <Christine> Paul: Priority 1 is rec 3 then 1 then 2
15:44:04 <Christine> Paulo: we need to revisit some of the foundations
15:44:35 <Christine> Yolanda: perhaps an email to the list with details
15:44:58 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov-xg
15:45:07 <Paolo> I just got temp disconnected
15:45:14 <Paolo> but have been on the phone
15:45:29 <Christine> Luc: broadly in agreement with Paul re priorities - but need to do at a higher level - provenance is very broad - solve core but not everything
15:46:34 <Christine> Yolanda: which items would be more amenable to be part of the core?
15:46:49 <Christine> Luc: agreed with Paul's prioritization
15:47:42 <SamCoppens> I would suggest 1, 3, 2 for the core
15:48:11 <Christine> Jun: rec 4 - 7 seem to be quite specific - before we can do that we don't have the foundation for the semantic web community - standardisation of representation of provenance info - 3 and 1 are my priorities
15:48:44 <pgroth> 3 isn't query, it's access
15:48:57 <Christine> Paolo: rec 1, 2, 3 are the baseline/foundation - placeholders 1 for data model, 2 ..  3 being open to other models - they are the baseline
15:48:58 <pgroth> would hate to specify a query mechanism 
15:49:02 <Jose_> IMO 1,3,2 first, then 5,6,4,7
15:49:51 <JimM> core, integration with DC, versions, metadata, records, access control
15:50:42 <Christine> Jim: generally agree that there is some core of things going through processes - integration with external metadata needs to be there - records is something we have not addressed a lot and is a key thing (particularly for business)
15:51:23 <Christine> Jim: some things around reasoning and granularity
15:52:09 <JimM> what's out for standardization - reasoning between witnesses, assessing reproducable research, inference over granularity
15:53:20 <Christine> Irini: agree with Luc and Paolo - priorities are different for different contexts - e.g. 5 then 3 for linked data SPARQL
15:54:40 <pgroth> +q
15:54:55 <Christine> Yolanda: clear focus of the group 1, 2 ,3 in different orders - Paolo summarised quite well - data model, query model and open model
15:54:57 <Luc> +q
15:55:14 <Christine> Yolanda: other areas require more work, more research
15:55:34 <YolandaGil> ack smiles
15:55:51 <Luc> is it query model or query language?
15:55:59 <Luc> designing a query language is a hard task!
15:56:06 <Christine> Paul: a query model/approach - I though the recommendation was about access or making information available - prefer not to call query
15:56:21 <Christine> Paul: difference between access and query language 
15:56:23 <Paolo> q+
15:56:25 <YolandaGil> ack pgroth
15:56:25 <pgroth> ack pgroth
15:56:29 <YolandaGil> ack Luc
15:56:30 <Christine> Luc: agree
15:57:08 <Irini> q+
15:57:18 <YolandaGil> ack Paolo
15:57:41 <ssahoo2> access vs. retrieval mechanism?
15:57:48 <Christine> Paolo: access is too broad - there should be an element of selectivity - to be able to specify what you want - query too specific 
15:58:38 <YolandaGil> ack Paolo
15:58:41 <YolandaGil> ack Irini
15:59:38 <Christine> Irini: explaining previous comment ... sparql language can be used for queries to produce provenance information - want fined grained so I can reproduce my results...
16:00:23 <Christine> Yolanda: pls write a paragraph to illustrate that different recommendations may be relevant for different circumstances
16:00:36 <Zakim> - +1.915.747.aaee
16:01:43 <YolandaGil> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/What_Is_Provenance
16:02:15 <Christine> Yolanda: useful call - discuss provenance defn next time - we have a page on the website (see agenda) - it has a few definitions - question is whether we will be able to come up with one defn as a group
16:02:58 <Christine> Christine: for outside the provenance community it would be helpful to have one definition
16:03:28 <Zakim> -krp
16:04:07 <Christine> Yolanda: we will discuss this next week - also look at what provenance is not
16:04:14 <Christine> Yolanda: thank you
16:04:19 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:04:20 <Zakim> -jun
16:04:23 <Zakim> - +1.216.368.aaaa
16:04:25 <Zakim> - +30281039aadd
16:04:27 <Zakim> -JimM
16:04:29 <Zakim> -Paolo
16:04:31 <Zakim> -??P30
16:04:31 <YolandaGil> Christine: i'll take on from here, many many thanks for scribing!!
16:04:34 <Zakim> -??P18
16:04:36 <Zakim> - +46.6.43.0.aacc
16:05:01 <YolandaGil> ScribeNick: Christine
16:05:11 <YolandaGil> rrsagent, set log public
16:05:18 <YolandaGil> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/24-prov-xg-minutes.html YolandaGil
16:24:42 <Zakim> -YolandaGil
16:24:44 <Zakim> INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has ended
16:24:45 <Zakim> Attendees were smiles, JimM, Paolo, [IPcaller], krp, YolandaGil, +1.216.368.aaaa, jun, +1.915.603.aabb, +46.6.43.0.aacc, +30281039aadd, +1.915.747.aaee
16:56:22 <YolandaGil> trackbot, end telcon
16:56:22 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:56:22 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:56:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:56:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/24-prov-xg-minutes.html trackbot
16:56:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:56:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items