IRC log of ua on 2010-09-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:52:10 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:52:10 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-irc
16:52:12 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:52:12 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:52:14 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:52:14 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
16:52:15 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:52:15 [trackbot]
Date: 23 September 2010
16:54:22 [kford]
Agenda+ Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/
16:54:24 [kford]
Agenda+ November F2F
16:54:25 [kford]
Agenda+ Browser Implementations
16:54:27 [kford]
Agenda+ Hyphenation in the User Agent
16:55:21 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
16:55:44 [kford]
Agenda+ AccewssKey in HTML5
16:56:07 [kford]
zakim, agenda order is 5, 1, 2, 3, 4
16:56:07 [Zakim]
ok, kford
16:56:16 [kford]
zakim, agenda
16:56:16 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda', kford
16:56:24 [kford]
zakim, agenda ?
16:56:24 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:56:26 [Zakim]
5. AccewssKey in HTML5 [from kford]
16:56:28 [Zakim]
1. Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from kford]
16:56:30 [Zakim]
2. November F2F [from kford]
16:56:32 [Zakim]
3. Browser Implementations [from kford]
16:56:34 [Zakim]
4. Hyphenation in the User Agent [from kford]
16:56:58 [kford]
Chair: Kelly_Ford
16:57:07 [kford]
Regrets: Jan
16:57:27 [kford]
rrs agent, make minutes
16:57:58 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-minutes.html kford
16:58:21 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:58:28 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:58:34 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
16:58:34 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
16:59:55 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
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+Greg
17:03:17 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:03:57 [sharper]
Zakim, code?
17:03:57 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper
17:04:03 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
17:04:58 [Zakim]
+??P7
17:05:04 [sharper]
zakim, ??P7 is sharper
17:05:04 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:05:12 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:07:08 [kford]
Scribe: Greg
17:07:44 [jallan]
jallan has joined #ua
17:08:59 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
17:09:29 [kford]
zakim, take up item 5
17:09:29 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "AccewssKey in HTML5" taken up [from kford]
17:11:15 [oedipus]
dialing in now -- lost track of time -- was on phone with physician
17:11:29 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
17:12:02 [Greg]
Jeanne: Coordination group meeting yesterday. Concern that deadline looming on filing HTML5 bugs, and even though requirements for PF for accesskey equivalent does not have to be done, we have to identify all the places where bugs need to be filed against the HTML5 spec. PF is working on identifying those places. We need to reconcile UA's comments with PF's.
17:12:46 [Greg]
Jeanne: Deadline for filing bugs against HTML5 is Friday, October 1.
17:14:15 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
17:15:06 [Greg]
GR: He identified a specific list of bugs against HTML5's current definition of AccessKeys, but was asked to hold off on logging them as bugs until they were compared with UAAG20's work on keyboard access, activation vs. focus, discoverability, etc.
17:15:58 [Greg]
GR: Judy wants to ensure that HTML5 has mechanisms to support all requirements in UAAG20 that would relate to accesskeys.
17:18:12 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements
17:18:37 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements
17:18:46 [Greg]
GR: Final list of bugs need to be logged by October 1, but details can be fleshed out later. His Access Keys Requirements document will probably be logged as a bug identifying which mechanisms aren't yet supported by HTML5.
17:20:29 [Greg]
GR: Don't think of them as AccessKey requirements only; some might be shaken out into other elements or attributes.
17:21:20 [Greg]
GR: The first link above is what PF came up with, the second his summary of what he found in UAAG.
17:23:11 [Greg]
GR: Also working on filing bugs against how accesskey currently appears in HTML5, which fails to address known problems from HTML4 and introduces new issues as well.
17:23:57 [oedipus]
proposed HTML5 bug requiring @title for FRAME and IFRAME: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0079.html
17:25:28 [Greg]
GR would like individuals members of UAWG to review and comment on PF requirements based on our understanding of what keyboard access means, to supplement PFs ongoing work.
17:27:56 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.435.aaaa
17:28:28 [Zakim]
- +1.617.435.aaaa
17:28:31 [oedipus]
what is broken with accesskey in HTML5: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/access_key_requirements#what_is_broken_with_accesskey_in_HTML5.3F
17:28:49 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements
17:30:21 [oedipus]
oedipus@hicom.net
17:31:22 [oedipus]
eric, i am free most of tomorrow
17:33:10 [oedipus]
KF: what i don't see listed -- how is this displayed
17:33:39 [Greg]
KF: These nine requirements include functionality but not UI, such as how keyboard commands are conveyed to the user.
17:34:04 [Zakim]
-sharper
17:34:19 [oedipus]
Jeanne: Requirement 9: Access command mappings should be available at the beginning of the document. incomplete
17:35:53 [Greg]
JS: Missing ability to user to assign priorities of various keyboard shortcuts, e.g. when user, user agent, and content all try to assign the same key to different functions. Browser needs to mediate, but the user needs final say.
17:37:24 [oedipus]
email Proposal: User Interface Independence for Accessible Rich Internet Applications: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/0106.html
17:37:27 [oedipus]
actual proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html
17:38:29 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:38:29 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper
17:39:09 [Zakim]
+??P7
17:39:11 [sharper]
zakim, ??P7 is sharper
17:39:11 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:39:25 [oedipus]
Requirement 3: Access commands should default to focus behaviour, ability for authors to specify whether the default behaviour focuses or activates the target, and for a user to overwrite any author specified or default behaviour.
17:39:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.435.aabb
17:40:29 [Greg]
GL: Wondering whether it would be useful for UA to give the user the option to force access keys to navigate to an item without activating it, allowing the user to then check what it is before manually activating it. Generally accessible UI design guidelines say user should be able to navigate without side effects (e.g. activation), and it's not clear that the user would always be able to...
17:40:30 [Greg]
...navigate to the items through other means (e.g. tabbing).
17:41:10 [Greg]
GL: (That is regarding the "explanatory note" on meaning of "access commands".)
17:42:03 [Greg]
KF: Doesn't feel UAAG2.0 4.2 is covered by PF's nine requirements, yet.
17:42:27 [Greg]
GR: It's in his document calling out UAAG20 requirements not yet in the PF requirements list.
17:43:37 [Greg]
GR: Will consider entering UAAG20 4.2.1 through 4.2.3 as separate bugs against HTML5.
17:45:02 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
17:45:13 [oedipus]
ACTION: Gregory - email event handler proposed bugs to UA list
17:45:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-450 - - email event handler proposed bugs to UA list [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-09-30].
17:46:36 [Zakim]
- +1.617.435.aabb
17:47:46 [Greg]
GL: Requirements could explicitly say that when there is a conflict between keyboard commands defined by content, user, and user agent, that all of the commands still *need to be available*, even if the user's preferences end with some being overridden. For example, if two things want to be Ctrl+S, one would be changed to another modifier, or a menu provides access to the various commands...
17:47:48 [Greg]
...and lists their origins and originally requested keys.
17:50:19 [Greg]
GL: It's worth noting that documentation often refers to the keyboard commands originally specified by the content author or UA developer, and so user may need to be able to map those to the actual keyboard commands used on their system as it's currently configured (e.g. overridden keys, or change of modifier imposed by the user agent).
17:51:23 [Greg]
KF: UAAG20 has requirement 4.7.2 about direct navigation to important structural and functional elements.
17:51:57 [Greg]
KF: 4.7.6 says user can choose "important elements".
17:52:31 [Greg]
GR: 4.7.7 wording will serve well.
17:53:39 [oedipus]
issues with global attribute "accesskey as-is in HTML5: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0103.html
17:53:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.435.aacc
17:54:39 [oedipus]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0079.html
17:54:54 [oedipus]
above is link to proposed bug on @title req for FRAME and IFRAME
17:55:51 [oedipus]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0079.html
17:55:52 [Greg]
GL: The user agent should be able to provide the user with information as to what a keyboard command does, or at least which component (e.g. which html document, script, plug-in, etc.) is handling it.
17:56:25 [oedipus]
PROBLEM: @title is not required for FRAME or IFRAME in HTML5
17:56:32 [Greg]
GR: Needs signoff by UAWG on the proposed bug requiring title on frame and iframe.
17:56:32 [oedipus]
DETAILS: @title has been used since HTML4 by assistive technologies to present the user with information as to the nature and function of the FRAME or IFRAME for which it is defined
17:57:14 [oedipus]
action-447?
17:57:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-447 -- Gregory Rosmaita to - send proposed bug report on IFRAME and FRAME requesting that @title be required (used by AT to identify FRAMEs and IFRAMEs to user) -- due 2010-09-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:57:14 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/447
17:57:37 [oedipus]
action-447: email proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0079.html
17:57:38 [trackbot]
ACTION-447 - send proposed bug report on IFRAME and FRAME requesting that @title be required (used by AT to identify FRAMEs and IFRAMEs to user) notes added
17:59:15 [Greg]
GR: Will be logging bug that title be required on iframe and frame, that some method needs to be provided for long descriptions of visual content in an iframe.
18:02:43 [Greg]
GR: DOM3 events working on hybrid control key/character, such as when you want to enter a navigation key such as tab into a text entry form field.
18:02:48 [oedipus]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html
18:03:10 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-minutes.html kford
18:04:54 [Greg]
GR: Apple doing the User Interface Independence proposal linked to above. Meeting/call Monday at 10 AM Boston time that some UA reps will be on.
18:06:28 [Greg]
GR: Any other items that we want to advance or ensure is being addressed re HTML5?
18:07:27 [Greg]
KP: (She's been intermittently on the call due to phone problems.) Asks about direct navigation to elements, which is a key requirement.
18:09:42 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements
18:10:00 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements
18:11:10 [kford]
zakim, close item 5
18:11:10 [Zakim]
agendum 5, AccewssKey in HTML5, closed
18:11:11 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:11:12 [Zakim]
1. Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from kford]
18:11:23 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
18:11:23 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/" taken up [from kford]
18:15:22 [Greg]
First question is titled 4.6.3 but the actual link is to 3.6.1 Configure Text.
18:15:49 [Greg]
We have 2 accept and 3 recommend changes, but none of the proposed changes are major, substantial criticisms.
18:17:49 [Greg]
Jan suggests an expanded Intent paragraph: "There are many types of low vision and each affects the perception of text differently. As a result, users will have a variety of preferences for text size (larger, smaller), font (letter shape, spacing, etc.) contrast (by adjusting foreground and background colors). In providing these preferences, it is important to avoid making assumptions. For...
18:17:50 [Greg]
...example, some users want to reduce the font size to decrease the need to scroll the content."
18:19:24 [Greg]
Corrects typo: "There are many types of low vision and each affects the perception of text differently. As a result, users will have a variety of preferences for text size (larger, smaller), font (letter shape, spacing, etc.), and contrast (by adjusting foreground and background colors). In providing these preferences, it is important to avoid making assumptions. For example, some users want...
18:19:25 [Greg]
...to reduce the font size to decrease the need to scroll the content.
18:20:39 [Greg]
Greg's survey response brought up a related question, but not specific to this SC: We might also want to include guidance on topics like, when user prints the document or saves it to their hard drive, or when it's exposed to assistive technology, should it be saved/printed/exposed as it appears on the screen or as the author specified?
18:21:21 [oedipus]
GL: configure text
18:21:29 [oedipus]
KF: when print, don't magnify do they?
18:21:39 [oedipus]
GL: some do -- can be a good or bad thing according to user
18:21:58 [kford]
Issue: We need to think about how to handle printing and such for accessible configurations.
18:21:58 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-74 - We need to think about how to handle printing and such for accessible configurations. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/74/edit .
18:23:35 [Greg]
Next question is titled Proposal for 4.6.4 but the link is to 3.6.2 Preserve Distinctions Intent, Examples and Related Resources.
18:23:45 [jeanne]
action: Jeanne to update document 4.6.1 with text from minutes of 23 September
18:23:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-451 - Update document 4.6.1 with text from minutes of 23 September [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-09-30].
18:24:04 [Greg]
The existing wording is: 3.6.2 Preserve Distinctions: The user has the ability to preserve distinctions in the size of rendered text when that text is rescaled (e.g., headers continue to be larger than body text) within absolute limitations imposed by the platform. (Level A)
18:24:05 [Greg]
* Intent of Success Criterion 3.6.2:
18:24:07 [Greg]
Users who need to enlarge or reduce text should be able to preserve visual cues like proportionally larger headlines so they can easily scan through them.
18:24:09 [Greg]
* Examples of Success Criterion 3.6.2:
18:24:10 [Greg]
o Lee changes all her text to 16 pt Palatino. She needs the headlines to scale proportionally (e.g. 24 pt) in order to preserve headline prominence.
18:27:26 [Greg]
Jan's proposed rewrite of the Intent paragraph: The relative size of text provides visual cues that help in understanding and navigating web content. For example, headlines in a larger font than the body text. Users who set preferences to enlarge or reduce the text size need to have these visual cues preserved.
18:28:06 [Greg]
Greg's proposed revised and additional examples:
18:28:08 [Greg]
Examples of Success Criterion 3.6.1:
18:28:09 [Greg]
Lee has low vision from albinism and has difficulty with screen resolution and brightness. She chooses to have all text displayed in Palatino font, with white text on a black background, and at least 16 points tall. The serif Palatino font has character spacing that resolves better for her vision, while the white on black reduces glare and the larger size allows her to distinguish fine...
18:28:11 [Greg]
...detail more clearly.
18:28:12 [Greg]
Tomas has extremely low vision and chooses to have his browser display all text the same size, and sets that size as large as he can without making the letters too tall for his screen. He chooses not to have headings be proportionately larger than normal text because that would make them taller than his screen and so unreadable.
18:28:14 [Greg]
Examples of Success Criterion 3.6.2:
18:28:16 [Greg]
Lee finds text easiest to read at 16 pt Palatino, but can chooses to have her browser display all in the Palatino font and at least 16 pt in size. She needs the headlines to scale proportionally (e.g. 24 pt) in order to preserve headline prominence.
18:30:37 [Greg]
Corrected to: Lee finds text easiest to read at 16 pt Palatino, so chooses to have her browser display all text in the Palatino font of at least 16 pt in size. She needs the headlines to scale proportionally (e.g. 24 pt) in order to preserve headline prominence.
18:30:59 [Zakim]
- +1.617.435.aacc
18:31:04 [Greg]
General agreement to those changes.
18:32:08 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
18:32:10 [Zakim]
-sharper
18:32:12 [Zakim]
-kford
18:32:13 [Zakim]
-Greg
18:32:39 [jeanne]
action: Jeanne to update examples of 3.6.2 with updated text, from minutes of 23
18:32:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-452 - Update examples of 3.6.2 with updated text, from minutes of 23 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-09-30].
18:32:44 [jeanne]
September
18:32:57 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:32:58 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:33:00 [Zakim]
Attendees were kford, Greg, Jim_Allan, sharper, Jeanne, Gregory_Rosmaita, +1.617.435.aaaa, +1.617.435.aabb, +1.617.435.aacc
18:33:05 [jeanne]
zakim, bye
18:33:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:33:10 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:33:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:33:18 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:33:23 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:33:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:34:21 [jeanne]
present- +1.617.435.aaaa, +1.617.435.aabb, +1.617.435.aacc
18:34:27 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:34:55 [jeanne]
present+ Kim
18:35:02 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:35:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:37:57 [jeanne]
rrsagent, bye
18:37:57 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-actions.rdf :
18:37:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Gregory - email event handler proposed bugs to UA list [1]
18:37:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-irc#T17-45-13
18:37:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to update document 4.6.1 with text from minutes of 23 September [2]
18:37:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-irc#T18-23-45
18:37:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to update examples of 3.6.2 with updated text, from minutes of 23 [3]
18:37:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-irc#T18-32-39
18:38:02 [jeanne]
jeanne has left #ua