16:52:10 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:52:10 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-irc 16:52:12 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:52:12 Zakim has joined #ua 16:52:14 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:52:14 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 16:52:15 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:52:15 Date: 23 September 2010 16:54:22 Agenda+ Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ 16:54:24 Agenda+ November F2F 16:54:25 Agenda+ Browser Implementations 16:54:27 Agenda+ Hyphenation in the User Agent 16:55:21 jeanne has joined #ua 16:55:44 Agenda+ AccewssKey in HTML5 16:56:07 zakim, agenda order is 5, 1, 2, 3, 4 16:56:07 ok, kford 16:56:16 zakim, agenda 16:56:16 I don't understand 'agenda', kford 16:56:24 zakim, agenda ? 16:56:24 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 16:56:26 5. AccewssKey in HTML5 [from kford] 16:56:28 1. Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from kford] 16:56:30 2. November F2F [from kford] 16:56:32 3. Browser Implementations [from kford] 16:56:34 4. Hyphenation in the User Agent [from kford] 16:56:58 Chair: Kelly_Ford 16:57:07 Regrets: Jan 16:57:27 rrs agent, make minutes 16:57:58 rrsagent, make minutes 16:57:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-minutes.html kford 16:58:21 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:58:28 +[Microsoft] 16:58:34 zakim, microsoft is kford 16:58:34 +kford; got it 16:59:55 Greg has joined #ua 16:59:55 +Greg 17:03:17 sharper has joined #ua 17:03:57 Zakim, code? 17:03:57 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper 17:04:03 +Jim_Allan 17:04:58 +??P7 17:05:04 zakim, ??P7 is sharper 17:05:04 +sharper; got it 17:05:12 +Jeanne 17:07:08 Scribe: Greg 17:07:44 jallan has joined #ua 17:08:59 -Jim_Allan 17:09:29 zakim, take up item 5 17:09:29 agendum 5. "AccewssKey in HTML5" taken up [from kford] 17:11:15 dialing in now -- lost track of time -- was on phone with physician 17:11:29 +Gregory_Rosmaita 17:12:02 Jeanne: Coordination group meeting yesterday. Concern that deadline looming on filing HTML5 bugs, and even though requirements for PF for accesskey equivalent does not have to be done, we have to identify all the places where bugs need to be filed against the HTML5 spec. PF is working on identifying those places. We need to reconcile UA's comments with PF's. 17:12:46 Jeanne: Deadline for filing bugs against HTML5 is Friday, October 1. 17:14:15 +Jim_Allan 17:15:06 GR: He identified a specific list of bugs against HTML5's current definition of AccessKeys, but was asked to hold off on logging them as bugs until they were compared with UAAG20's work on keyboard access, activation vs. focus, discoverability, etc. 17:15:58 GR: Judy wants to ensure that HTML5 has mechanisms to support all requirements in UAAG20 that would relate to accesskeys. 17:18:12 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements 17:18:37 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements 17:18:46 GR: Final list of bugs need to be logged by October 1, but details can be fleshed out later. His Access Keys Requirements document will probably be logged as a bug identifying which mechanisms aren't yet supported by HTML5. 17:20:29 GR: Don't think of them as AccessKey requirements only; some might be shaken out into other elements or attributes. 17:21:20 GR: The first link above is what PF came up with, the second his summary of what he found in UAAG. 17:23:11 GR: Also working on filing bugs against how accesskey currently appears in HTML5, which fails to address known problems from HTML4 and introduces new issues as well. 17:23:57 proposed HTML5 bug requiring @title for FRAME and IFRAME: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0079.html 17:25:28 GR would like individuals members of UAWG to review and comment on PF requirements based on our understanding of what keyboard access means, to supplement PFs ongoing work. 17:27:56 + +1.617.435.aaaa 17:28:28 - +1.617.435.aaaa 17:28:31 what is broken with accesskey in HTML5: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/access_key_requirements#what_is_broken_with_accesskey_in_HTML5.3F 17:28:49 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements 17:30:21 oedipus@hicom.net 17:31:22 eric, i am free most of tomorrow 17:33:10 KF: what i don't see listed -- how is this displayed 17:33:39 KF: These nine requirements include functionality but not UI, such as how keyboard commands are conveyed to the user. 17:34:04 -sharper 17:34:19 Jeanne: Requirement 9: Access command mappings should be available at the beginning of the document. incomplete 17:35:53 JS: Missing ability to user to assign priorities of various keyboard shortcuts, e.g. when user, user agent, and content all try to assign the same key to different functions. Browser needs to mediate, but the user needs final say. 17:37:24 email Proposal: User Interface Independence for Accessible Rich Internet Applications: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/0106.html 17:37:27 actual proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html 17:38:29 zakim, code? 17:38:29 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper 17:39:09 +??P7 17:39:11 zakim, ??P7 is sharper 17:39:11 +sharper; got it 17:39:25 Requirement 3: Access commands should default to focus behaviour, ability for authors to specify whether the default behaviour focuses or activates the target, and for a user to overwrite any author specified or default behaviour. 17:39:41 + +1.617.435.aabb 17:40:29 GL: Wondering whether it would be useful for UA to give the user the option to force access keys to navigate to an item without activating it, allowing the user to then check what it is before manually activating it. Generally accessible UI design guidelines say user should be able to navigate without side effects (e.g. activation), and it's not clear that the user would always be able to... 17:40:30 ...navigate to the items through other means (e.g. tabbing). 17:41:10 GL: (That is regarding the "explanatory note" on meaning of "access commands".) 17:42:03 KF: Doesn't feel UAAG2.0 4.2 is covered by PF's nine requirements, yet. 17:42:27 GR: It's in his document calling out UAAG20 requirements not yet in the PF requirements list. 17:43:37 GR: Will consider entering UAAG20 4.2.1 through 4.2.3 as separate bugs against HTML5. 17:45:02 -Jim_Allan 17:45:13 ACTION: Gregory - email event handler proposed bugs to UA list 17:45:13 Created ACTION-450 - - email event handler proposed bugs to UA list [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-09-30]. 17:46:36 - +1.617.435.aabb 17:47:46 GL: Requirements could explicitly say that when there is a conflict between keyboard commands defined by content, user, and user agent, that all of the commands still *need to be available*, even if the user's preferences end with some being overridden. For example, if two things want to be Ctrl+S, one would be changed to another modifier, or a menu provides access to the various commands... 17:47:48 ...and lists their origins and originally requested keys. 17:50:19 GL: It's worth noting that documentation often refers to the keyboard commands originally specified by the content author or UA developer, and so user may need to be able to map those to the actual keyboard commands used on their system as it's currently configured (e.g. overridden keys, or change of modifier imposed by the user agent). 17:51:23 KF: UAAG20 has requirement 4.7.2 about direct navigation to important structural and functional elements. 17:51:57 KF: 4.7.6 says user can choose "important elements". 17:52:31 GR: 4.7.7 wording will serve well. 17:53:39 issues with global attribute "accesskey as-is in HTML5: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0103.html 17:53:55 + +1.617.435.aacc 17:54:39 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0079.html 17:54:54 above is link to proposed bug on @title req for FRAME and IFRAME 17:55:51 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0079.html 17:55:52 GL: The user agent should be able to provide the user with information as to what a keyboard command does, or at least which component (e.g. which html document, script, plug-in, etc.) is handling it. 17:56:25 PROBLEM: @title is not required for FRAME or IFRAME in HTML5 17:56:32 GR: Needs signoff by UAWG on the proposed bug requiring title on frame and iframe. 17:56:32 DETAILS: @title has been used since HTML4 by assistive technologies to present the user with information as to the nature and function of the FRAME or IFRAME for which it is defined 17:57:14 action-447? 17:57:14 ACTION-447 -- Gregory Rosmaita to - send proposed bug report on IFRAME and FRAME requesting that @title be required (used by AT to identify FRAMEs and IFRAMEs to user) -- due 2010-09-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:57:14 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/447 17:57:37 action-447: email proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0079.html 17:57:38 ACTION-447 - send proposed bug report on IFRAME and FRAME requesting that @title be required (used by AT to identify FRAMEs and IFRAMEs to user) notes added 17:59:15 GR: Will be logging bug that title be required on iframe and frame, that some method needs to be provided for long descriptions of visual content in an iframe. 18:02:43 GR: DOM3 events working on hybrid control key/character, such as when you want to enter a navigation key such as tab into a text entry form field. 18:02:48 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html 18:03:10 rrsagent, make minutes 18:03:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-minutes.html kford 18:04:54 GR: Apple doing the User Interface Independence proposal linked to above. Meeting/call Monday at 10 AM Boston time that some UA reps will be on. 18:06:28 GR: Any other items that we want to advance or ensure is being addressed re HTML5? 18:07:27 KP: (She's been intermittently on the call due to phone problems.) Asks about direct navigation to elements, which is a key requirement. 18:09:42 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements 18:10:00 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements 18:11:10 zakim, close item 5 18:11:10 agendum 5, AccewssKey in HTML5, closed 18:11:11 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:11:12 1. Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from kford] 18:11:23 zakim, take up item 1 18:11:23 agendum 1. "Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/" taken up [from kford] 18:15:22 First question is titled 4.6.3 but the actual link is to 3.6.1 Configure Text. 18:15:49 We have 2 accept and 3 recommend changes, but none of the proposed changes are major, substantial criticisms. 18:17:49 Jan suggests an expanded Intent paragraph: "There are many types of low vision and each affects the perception of text differently. As a result, users will have a variety of preferences for text size (larger, smaller), font (letter shape, spacing, etc.) contrast (by adjusting foreground and background colors). In providing these preferences, it is important to avoid making assumptions. For... 18:17:50 ...example, some users want to reduce the font size to decrease the need to scroll the content." 18:19:24 Corrects typo: "There are many types of low vision and each affects the perception of text differently. As a result, users will have a variety of preferences for text size (larger, smaller), font (letter shape, spacing, etc.), and contrast (by adjusting foreground and background colors). In providing these preferences, it is important to avoid making assumptions. For example, some users want... 18:19:25 ...to reduce the font size to decrease the need to scroll the content. 18:20:39 Greg's survey response brought up a related question, but not specific to this SC: We might also want to include guidance on topics like, when user prints the document or saves it to their hard drive, or when it's exposed to assistive technology, should it be saved/printed/exposed as it appears on the screen or as the author specified? 18:21:21 GL: configure text 18:21:29 KF: when print, don't magnify do they? 18:21:39 GL: some do -- can be a good or bad thing according to user 18:21:58 Issue: We need to think about how to handle printing and such for accessible configurations. 18:21:58 Created ISSUE-74 - We need to think about how to handle printing and such for accessible configurations. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/74/edit . 18:23:35 Next question is titled Proposal for 4.6.4 but the link is to 3.6.2 Preserve Distinctions Intent, Examples and Related Resources. 18:23:45 action: Jeanne to update document 4.6.1 with text from minutes of 23 September 18:23:45 Created ACTION-451 - Update document 4.6.1 with text from minutes of 23 September [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-09-30]. 18:24:04 The existing wording is: 3.6.2 Preserve Distinctions: The user has the ability to preserve distinctions in the size of rendered text when that text is rescaled (e.g., headers continue to be larger than body text) within absolute limitations imposed by the platform. (Level A) 18:24:05 * Intent of Success Criterion 3.6.2: 18:24:07 Users who need to enlarge or reduce text should be able to preserve visual cues like proportionally larger headlines so they can easily scan through them. 18:24:09 * Examples of Success Criterion 3.6.2: 18:24:10 o Lee changes all her text to 16 pt Palatino. She needs the headlines to scale proportionally (e.g. 24 pt) in order to preserve headline prominence. 18:27:26 Jan's proposed rewrite of the Intent paragraph: The relative size of text provides visual cues that help in understanding and navigating web content. For example, headlines in a larger font than the body text. Users who set preferences to enlarge or reduce the text size need to have these visual cues preserved. 18:28:06 Greg's proposed revised and additional examples: 18:28:08 Examples of Success Criterion 3.6.1: 18:28:09 Lee has low vision from albinism and has difficulty with screen resolution and brightness. She chooses to have all text displayed in Palatino font, with white text on a black background, and at least 16 points tall. The serif Palatino font has character spacing that resolves better for her vision, while the white on black reduces glare and the larger size allows her to distinguish fine... 18:28:11 ...detail more clearly. 18:28:12 Tomas has extremely low vision and chooses to have his browser display all text the same size, and sets that size as large as he can without making the letters too tall for his screen. He chooses not to have headings be proportionately larger than normal text because that would make them taller than his screen and so unreadable. 18:28:14 Examples of Success Criterion 3.6.2: 18:28:16 Lee finds text easiest to read at 16 pt Palatino, but can chooses to have her browser display all in the Palatino font and at least 16 pt in size. She needs the headlines to scale proportionally (e.g. 24 pt) in order to preserve headline prominence. 18:30:37 Corrected to: Lee finds text easiest to read at 16 pt Palatino, so chooses to have her browser display all text in the Palatino font of at least 16 pt in size. She needs the headlines to scale proportionally (e.g. 24 pt) in order to preserve headline prominence. 18:30:59 - +1.617.435.aacc 18:31:04 General agreement to those changes. 18:32:08 -Gregory_Rosmaita 18:32:10 -sharper 18:32:12 -kford 18:32:13 -Greg 18:32:39 action: Jeanne to update examples of 3.6.2 with updated text, from minutes of 23 18:32:39 Created ACTION-452 - Update examples of 3.6.2 with updated text, from minutes of 23 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-09-30]. 18:32:44 September 18:32:57 -Jeanne 18:32:58 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:33:00 Attendees were kford, Greg, Jim_Allan, sharper, Jeanne, Gregory_Rosmaita, +1.617.435.aaaa, +1.617.435.aabb, +1.617.435.aacc 18:33:05 zakim, bye 18:33:05 Zakim has left #ua 18:33:10 rrsagent, make minutes 18:33:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:33:18 rrsagent, make logs public 18:33:23 rrsagent, make minutes 18:33:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:34:21 present- +1.617.435.aaaa, +1.617.435.aabb, +1.617.435.aacc 18:34:27 rrsagent, make minutes 18:34:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:34:55 present+ Kim 18:35:02 rrsagent, make minutes 18:35:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:37:57 rrsagent, bye 18:37:57 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-actions.rdf : 18:37:57 ACTION: Gregory - email event handler proposed bugs to UA list [1] 18:37:57 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-irc#T17-45-13 18:37:57 ACTION: Jeanne to update document 4.6.1 with text from minutes of 23 September [2] 18:37:57 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-irc#T18-23-45 18:37:57 ACTION: Jeanne to update examples of 3.6.2 with updated text, from minutes of 23 [3] 18:37:57 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-ua-irc#T18-32-39 18:38:02 jeanne has left #ua