IRC log of lld on 2010-09-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:15:09 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #lld
13:15:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:15:16 [TomB]
rssagent, bookmark
13:15:25 [TomB]
zakim, this will be LLD
13:15:25 [Zakim]
ok, TomB; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 45 minutes
13:16:11 [TomB]
13:16:23 [TomB]
Meeting: LLD XG
13:16:36 [TomB]
Chair: Tom
13:16:46 [TomB]
rrsagent, please make record public
13:17:29 [jeff_]
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13:22:25 [ww]
hooray! the +44 number answers today!
13:34:12 [emma]
emma has joined #lld
13:35:35 [TomB]
Regrets: Ray, Annette, Felix, Lars, Monica
13:46:54 [peter]
peter has joined #lld
13:50:34 [Zakim]
INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started
13:50:41 [Zakim]
13:53:32 [antoine]
antoine has joined #lld
13:53:48 [GordonD]
GordonD has joined #lld
13:53:51 [Zakim]
+ +
13:54:19 [TomB]
zakim, IPcaller is me
13:54:19 [Zakim]
+TomB; got it
13:55:06 [Zakim]
+ +1.678.235.aabb
13:55:23 [Zakim]
13:55:25 [bvatant]
bvatant has joined #lld
13:55:41 [Zakim]
13:55:47 [ww]
zakim, P6 is me
13:55:47 [Zakim]
sorry, ww, I do not recognize a party named 'P6'
13:56:01 [ww]
Zakim: ??P6 is me
13:56:02 [Zakim]
13:56:07 [ww]
Zakim mute me
13:56:21 [ww]
Zakim, ??P6 is me
13:56:21 [Zakim]
+ww; got it
13:56:26 [ww]
Zakim, mute me please
13:56:26 [Zakim]
ww should now be muted
13:57:37 [digikim]
digikim has joined #lld
13:57:50 [Zakim]
+ +
13:57:55 [AlexanderH]
AlexanderH has joined #lld
13:58:01 [jneubert]
jneubert has joined #lld
13:58:04 [Zakim]
13:58:26 [kcoyle]
kcoyle has joined #lld
13:58:39 [bvatant]
zakim, mute me
13:58:40 [Zakim]
bvatant should now be muted
13:59:06 [michaelp]
michaelp has joined #lld
13:59:11 [Zakim]
13:59:20 [Asaf]
Asaf has joined #lld
13:59:40 [Zakim]
13:59:44 [matolat]
matolat has joined #lld
13:59:50 [digikim]
zakim, ??P1 is digikim
13:59:50 [Zakim]
+digikim; got it
13:59:57 [Zakim]
14:00:28 [Zakim]
14:00:52 [Zakim]
14:00:57 [kai]
kai has joined #lld
14:01:02 [ww]
zakim, unmute me
14:01:13 [Zakim]
14:01:15 [Zakim]
ww should no longer be muted
14:01:17 [Zakim]
14:01:19 [Zakim]
14:01:35 [antoine]
zakim, asaf is really Asaf
14:01:41 [Zakim]
+Asaf; got it
14:01:49 [Zakim]
14:01:54 [TomB]
Scribe: ww
14:02:00 [TomB]
Scribenick: ww
14:02:19 [Zakim]
14:03:18 [Marcia]
Marcia has joined #lld
14:03:40 [Zakim]
14:03:43 [Zakim]
14:03:43 [edsu]
zoia, [LC] is edsu
14:03:49 [kefo]
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14:03:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate antoine
14:04:04 [ww]
RRSAgent, what are the action items?
14:04:04 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
14:04:14 [matolat]
zakim, michaelp.a is matolat
14:04:14 [Zakim]
+matolat; got it
14:04:23 [ww]
TOPIC: Admin
14:04:39 [marma]
marma has joined #lld
14:04:49 [Zakim]
14:05:05 [Zakim]
14:05:05 [ww]
TomB: accept minutes of previous meeting? comments?
14:05:37 [ww]
RESOLVED: Accept previous minutes
14:05:53 [ww]
TOPIC: Face to face meetings
14:06:05 [ww]
Tomb: meeting being prepared for friday oct. 22nd
14:06:23 [ww]
... have posted links recently, can discuss either in dc architecture mailing list or lld list
14:06:23 [kai]
zakim, P29 is Asaf.
14:06:23 [Zakim]
sorry, kai, I do not recognize a party named 'P29'
14:06:31 [kai]
zakim, ??P29 is Asaf.
14:06:31 [Zakim]
+Asaf; got it
14:06:31 [ww]
... logistics
14:06:41 [ww]
... have a data projector thanks to jeff from oclc
14:06:58 [ww]
... jeff is also willing to bring microphone and speakers, simple, doesn't have anything better
14:07:18 [ww]
... tomb thinks that because of size of meeting is suboptimal but it would work, unless somebody has better equipment
14:07:23 [kcoyle]
what type of mic and speaker s does he have?
14:07:29 [ww]
... idea is to have a wireless link to zakim, remote participants
14:08:05 [ww]
... remote participants would need to be able to hear as well as possible, those physically present would need to be able to hear any comments
14:08:16 [Marcia]
I may bring some as backup
14:08:32 [ww]
... by default we'll just jeff's gear, but if anybody has anything better it would be great, please get in touch with one of the chairs
14:08:44 [ww]
... in the meantime thanks to jeff for offering to bring this basic equipment
14:08:45 [Marcia]
do you need a notepad?
14:09:11 [ww]
... Fact to face meeting, there is a draft agenda with expected antendees
14:09:23 [ww]
... spend some time looking at this agenda and flesh it out
14:09:30 [emma]
Draft agenda :
14:09:33 [ww]
... three more teleconferences before the meeting
14:10:01 [ww]
... by oct 14th, the meeting before, we should have a complete agenda with everything people should read to prepare, with names of who is going to be leading each discussion
14:10:01 [TomB]
14:10:28 [ww]
PROPOSAL: look at both the topic list and the agenda and walk through
14:10:51 [ww]
... saturday we want to start at 9 and go through until 6:30 because some people won't be able to stay over until sunday
14:11:00 [ww]
... that gives us five sections of 1-1.5 hour
14:11:11 [ww]
... morning of saturday 9 - 12:30 devoted to use cases
14:11:22 [ww]
... use cases could be clustered by topic or type
14:11:55 [ww]
... look at each case, discuss, toward the end of the session reach some generalisations about the use cases and plan the writing of the deliverables
14:12:10 [jeff_]
14:12:12 [kcoyle]
14:12:18 [TomB]
ack jeff
14:12:18 [kcoyle]
14:12:18 [ww]
... by the time we finish the first two sections we'll have a clear idea of what should be done in order to ...
14:12:30 [ww]
jeff_: last week someone mentioned adding viaf
14:12:47 [ww]
... there is a use case for it, should it fold into the use case discussions or should it be broken out somehow
14:12:55 [ww]
TomB: why would it not be a use case?
14:13:07 [ww]
jeff_: it very well could...
14:13:22 [antoine]
@Jeff: could you deal with the creators of the use case and fit more explicit mention to VIAF?
14:13:29 [TomB]
ack kcoyle
14:13:41 [ww]
who is talking?: if we had a use case we could take as much time as we need to look at it in that section of the meeting
14:13:58 [emma]
s/who is talking?/kcoyle
14:14:00 [ww]
kcoyle: seems to me topic list is broader than use cases and we will look at use cases in relation to topics
14:14:11 [antoine]
14:14:18 [ww]
... so maybe the topic discussion has to be first
14:14:31 [ww]
TomB: we thought of this...
14:14:32 [TomB]
ack antoine
14:14:47 [ww]
kcoyle: my mind it could be topic first, but could go either way
14:14:56 [ww]
antoine: easier if we have concrete examples before going to the topic list
14:15:07 [emma]
14:15:11 [ww]
kcoyle: has anyone done an analysis of looking at use cases and topic list and looking at the gaps?
14:15:25 [ww]
... topics for which we don't have a use case, are there use cases for which we don't have a topic
14:15:27 [antoine]
14:15:34 [Asaf]
14:15:36 [ww]
... should do this before the meeting because we may want to fill in
14:15:46 [TomB]
ack emma
14:15:46 [emma]
+1 too
14:15:56 [ww]
TomB: in the next three calls we should do this, try to cluster things
14:16:25 [ww]
emma: idea that we need to gather the use cases according to the topics so that we can analyse them as a group because we may not have time to discuss them individually
14:16:28 [TomB]
14:16:36 [kcoyle]
14:16:40 [ww]
... so we need to gather them in a bundle and then discuss them together
14:16:58 [Asaf]
I'm willing to help.
14:16:58 [kcoyle]
I can do that
14:17:00 [ww]
... would like to do it but not alone, would like help
14:17:09 [GordonD]
I can assist
14:17:10 [Marcia]
I could
14:17:29 [bvatant]
I can help too
14:18:08 [ww]
ACTION: emma, kcoyle, GordonD, Marcia, bvatant to structure the discussion of use cases in light of the topic list
14:18:29 [ww]
TomB: movng onto the afternoon
14:18:50 [ww]
... afternoon could be the time that we look at the topics that do not fall into a use case and take a broader look at the topic list
14:19:04 [ww]
... picturing that the optic list would provide the overall framework for that discussion
14:19:22 [ww]
... hoping that we will have had a good discussion on friday about application profiles, that we could come to some conclusions
14:19:34 [ww]
... next few weeks would be a good time to go through the topic list
14:19:51 [ww]
... who has expressed interest in which topics
14:20:04 [ww]
... sequence in which we would like to deal with these topics in
14:20:12 [ww]
... in the last hour be very specific about what deliverables
14:20:26 [ww]
... and who is going to be responsible for writing the deliverables
14:20:27 [emma]
14:20:32 [TomB]
ack emma
14:20:34 [ww]
... anyone have ideas about how we might approach this
14:20:47 [ww]
emma: just a suggestion, is in the draft agenda
14:21:14 [ww]
... topic discussion could be moved on sunday morning because we might not have connection to zakim on sunday so we might take this topic which is harder to follow online anyway to sunday
14:21:19 [ww]
TomB: which topic/
14:21:39 [ww]
emma: going through the list of topics, list of topics, who is interested in what... i thought we would want to do that on sunday
14:21:42 [GordonD]
There are several topics for discussion embedded in the Library standards and linked data wiki page - no need to duplicate as use cases? but should be on the f2f meeting agenda, say Saturday pm
14:22:01 [ww]
... but maybe its not important if we do it on saturday afternoon, but we have to keep in mind that we may not have same connection facilities
14:22:02 [Asaf]
I thought going over the topics, whi is interested in what etc. was for the "next few weeks", not the conf. itself?
14:22:11 [ww]
TomB: what discuss sat aft?
14:22:24 [ww]
emma: vocabularies, where gordon was reporting on library standards
14:22:40 [GordonD]
The topic cluster group (just formed) could fold the Library standards topics into the use-case clusters
14:22:45 [ww]
... lot of issues, not only relevant to standards, relevant to vocabularies in general
14:23:05 [ww]
... if we ask people which vocabularies they are using in their use cases, this could be an interesting starting point for discussion
14:23:11 [TomB]
+1 on discussing vocabularies on Saturday afternoon
14:23:24 [ww]
TomB: sound sfine to me
14:23:37 [ww]
GordonD: just texted a couple of suggestions if you read up on the irc
14:23:58 [ww]
... just echoing what emma's just said, there's stuff in the library standards doc that needs to be included
14:24:08 [ww]
... fold into agenda, or more usefully fold into topic clusters
14:24:21 [antoine]
14:24:24 [ww]
TomB: thought they would be folded in topic discussion
14:24:48 [ww]
... but like the idea of looking of vocabularies in use cases and looking at them one by one
14:25:11 [ww]
... trying to generalise and about the isues related to these vocabularies in the way that gordon has done in the piece that he posted
14:25:39 [GordonD]
14:25:43 [ww]
... so to consolidate some of those issues having to do with bounded or unbounded properties that sort of thing, design issues that specific vocabularies but of interest to vocabularies generally,
14:26:01 [ww]
... gordon odes that cover your points?
14:26:11 [antoine]
14:26:11 [ww]
GordonD: in fact i suggested saturday afternoon as well so i think we are in agreement
14:26:22 [ww]
TomB: any other comments on saturday?
14:26:36 [ww]
... some people have to leave on saturday
14:26:53 [ww]
... sunday morning we won't have zakim so we'll have to brainstorm the old fasioned way
14:26:59 [antoine]
14:27:01 [ww]
... any other issues to discuss for sunday?
14:27:16 [ww]
... i think that covers what i wanted to get hte ball rolling on for the meeting in pittsburgh
14:27:21 [kcoyle]
14:27:26 [ww]
... we need to push this forward in the next three calls
14:27:35 [Zakim]
14:27:42 [ww]
... and turn this into an agenda where we have links to everything that needs to be read and a rough idea of the sequence
14:27:49 [ww]
... ifrst priority use case
14:27:57 [ww]
... feeds into discussion of vocabularies
14:28:08 [ww]
... progress in the next week on structuring use case part of the meeting that would be great
14:28:20 [ww]
... on the basis of that start look at structuring the afternoon
14:28:32 [emma]
14:28:34 [ww]
... not worried about structirng the sunday morning session, we'll have plenty to talk about
14:28:46 [TomB]
ack antoine
14:28:49 [TomB]
14:28:56 [Zakim]
14:29:32 [TomB]
ack kcoyle
14:29:33 [ww]
antoine: just to clarify there was a question from asaf on the channel about the action on the topic list in which he thought that going over the topics was for the next few weeks not for the f2f itself, just want to remind everyone to have a look to the topic list so they can make comments or put their names there
14:29:38 [Asaf]
Thanks, Antoine.
14:29:40 [ww]
... so that we can be as prepared as possible
14:29:54 [ww]
kcoyle: administrative, do you have a style for assigning scribe duty for these meetings
14:30:12 [ww]
TomB: have rotating scribe list that has been taking shape, when someboday scribes their name goes to the bottom of the list
14:30:33 [ww]
kcoyle: i was thinking about the face to face meeting, seems to me that beforehand we want to assign someone,
14:30:47 [ww]
... for sunday where there's no wireless want to make sure that somebody has all the documents on them
14:31:24 [bvatant]
bvatant has joined #lld
14:31:28 [ww]
TomB: good point. will make sure that we assign... an hour and a half is a long time to scribe, sort of on the border line... we'lll take a look on the last call before the meeting to see who will be available, make sure we have a designated laptop and that all the documents we need are on it
14:31:44 [ww]
TOPIC: use cases and use case studies
14:31:52 [ww]
TomB: the use cases are coming in
14:32:08 [ww]
... all of the use cases are being linked to htis wiki page called UseCases
14:32:15 [ww]
... would someone like to comment on these/
14:32:15 [ww]
14:32:36 [ww]
antoine: yeah i can just briefly comment on the fact that the UseCases page has been edited a bit.
14:33:11 [ww]
... i moved some of the process information onto another wiki page, based on a suggestion by you, so that we have something that is not polluted by previous suggestions when we want to discuss the use cases themselves
14:33:13 [antoine]
14:33:22 [ww]
TomB: nothing else on this this week
14:33:22 [emma]
q+ to suggest new members introduce themselves
14:33:22 [Asaf]
quick note: I'll be contributing a use-case for Project Ben-Yehuda
14:33:42 [ww]
TOPIC: lod discussion
14:34:09 [antoine]
q+ to continue action on topics
14:34:13 [ww]
TOPIC: wiki pages for capturing relevant links and ideas
14:34:23 [ww]
... any comments on status and how they're shaping up?
14:34:32 [ww]
... for example library technology explained
14:34:41 [ww]
... emma how libray standards are related
14:35:12 [ww]
emma: i think we probably.. .there is a need to have some material that you can reuse for presentations, that was the idea that was intended in the beginning
14:35:17 [ww]
... just checking
14:35:37 [ww]
... in the presentation page we were trying to find all the interesting presentations that we had on libraries and linked data
14:35:58 [ww]
... this is useful, but when i'm building a resentation i go to this page and use the material, but i'm not sure if i can reuse it
14:36:20 [ww]
... we have gathered a lot of presentations, but i would suggest we move it forward, to identify what is really useful, what has been tested and what is missing
14:36:25 [Marcia]
Will SKOSified vocabulary cases be counted?
14:36:35 [ww]
... a suggestion, i know karen was more ore less in charge of this,
14:36:40 [Asaf]
re re-use: presentations should have clear license information (CC etc.)
14:36:45 [ww]
TomB: good topic for sunday morning
14:36:59 [ww]
... maybe clarify permission to reuse... license, creative commons
14:37:01 [antoine]
Be careful with discussing online material on sunday morning!
14:37:05 [kai]
+1 for CC license
14:37:06 [ww]
emma: or maybe contact the authors
14:37:22 [ww]
kcoyle: seems to me one of the things tomb and i had talked about was developing actual graphics that are available to pepople
14:37:40 [ww]
... perhaps after we have gone over the topic list we could look at the topics and see which ones need illustrations
14:37:46 [pmurray]
Are there governing guidelines from W3C that would specify licensing terms?
14:38:04 [ww]
... then either develop illustrations we could put a CC license on it, or see if we could find illustrations that could be reused, contact the authors
14:38:08 [antoine]
14:38:14 [ww]
TomB: i actually put some slides in that have some illustrations
14:38:21 [TomB]
14:38:39 [ww]
... these slides here have some illustrations along the lines of what i'd like to see more of
14:38:54 [ww]
... things that make it graphicall yclear that triples are the expression of arcs in a graph
14:38:59 [ww]
... and that all of those are statements
14:39:16 [ww]
... graphics that get people really thinking about seeing how a graph is constructed out of statements
14:39:29 [ww]
... and how its all encoded in triples and how it could be encoded in different syntaxes
14:39:47 [ww]
... i would be interested in looking at those slides for example, and thinking about whether we could improve on the graphics...
14:40:06 [ww]
... and find a way, specifically for lld, to leverage some of the existing other vocabularies
14:40:17 [ww]
... find some examples that make these connections clear to people
14:40:19 [TomB]
14:40:23 [TomB]
ack emma
14:40:23 [Zakim]
emma, you wanted to suggest new members introduce themselves
14:40:29 [ww]
emma: complete other topic
14:40:37 [ww]
... to suggest that the new members could introduce themselves
14:40:42 [ww]
... there are three of them
14:40:53 [ww]
TomB: on my list to do in last few minutes of the call
14:41:04 [TomB]
ack antoine
14:41:04 [Zakim]
antoine, you wanted to continue action on topics
14:41:05 [ww]
emma: let me add that they shouldn't be shy to come into the queue and talk
14:41:11 [ww]
... so feel free!
14:41:22 [ww]
antoine: something that goes later because we forgot to continue an action
14:41:36 [ww]
TomB: action on everyone to contribute to the topic list?
14:41:39 [ww]
antoine: yes
14:41:43 [ww]
TOPIC: upcoming topics
14:41:53 [ww]
TomB: don't thinkg there's anything we need to say... placeholders
14:42:04 [ww]
TOPIC: any other business?
14:42:11 [Asaf]
14:42:22 [ww]
TomB: three new participants, Asaf, would you like to say a few words?
14:42:22 [pmurray]
+q to introduce myself.
14:42:33 [Asaf]
14:43:06 [ww]
Asaf: i'm interested in lld because i'm the editor and software designed for a digital library called project ben-yehuda
14:43:20 [ww]
... it's a public domain repository of hebrew texts
14:43:38 [ww]
... unlike gutenberg our items are individual stories, poems, etc. unlike "book"
14:43:50 [ww]
... interested in a rich catalog because many of our works discuss each other
14:44:05 [ww]
... very keen about having rich semantic relations in our internal catalogue
14:44:16 [ww]
... in addition, sharing our metadata
14:44:28 [ww]
... hebrew libraries use book data, e.g. marc
14:44:46 [ww]
... concern is to share rich metadata and in the future benefit from others sharing....
14:44:49 [antoine]
14:45:11 [ww]
... for example, we have a translation of Romeo and Juliet and want a universal identifier for shakespeare and the work,
14:45:21 [ww]
... so that i can tie in to it...
14:45:26 [ww]
TomB: welcome
14:45:39 [ww]
... Kevin, this is your first call as a member?
14:45:58 [ww]
TomB: Peter?
14:46:15 [ww]
pmurray: assistant director of lyr?
14:46:17 [rsinger]
ww++ # you're doing great!
14:46:22 [rsinger]
14:46:29 [ww]
... academic libraries for east coast of united states...
14:46:34 [ww]
... 3000 member libraries
14:46:42 [ww]
... interest in linked data to enhance discovery services
14:46:54 [ww]
... particularly interested, working witha collegue Ron Murray at LOC
14:47:04 [ww]
... to instill aspects of FRBR into library bibliographic data
14:47:11 [ww]
... turn the marc data inside out
14:47:21 [ww]
... to be a graph of links between entities
14:47:36 [ww]
... that this w3c wg got started was right along the lines that i was thinking working with him
14:47:40 [ww]
... happy to be a part of this
14:47:56 [ww]
TomB: other newcomers?
14:48:00 [ww]
... further business?
14:48:08 [ww]
... we are actually allowed to finish early
14:48:21 [Zakim]
14:48:21 [ww]
... so let's adjourn this meeting and talk next week
14:48:22 [Zakim]
14:48:24 [Zakim]
14:48:24 [Zakim]
14:48:25 [ww]
... thank you ery much
14:48:27 [Zakim]
14:48:28 [Zakim]
14:48:28 [Zakim]
14:48:29 [Zakim]
14:48:29 [Zakim]
14:48:30 [Zakim]
14:48:31 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:48:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate antoine
14:48:32 [Zakim]
14:48:34 [Zakim]
14:48:36 [Zakim]
14:48:39 [marma]
14:48:40 [jeff_]
jeff_ has left #lld
14:48:41 [matolat]
14:48:46 [Zakim]
14:48:56 [Zakim]
14:49:07 [antoine]
zakim, who is here?
14:49:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see TomB, emma, ww, antoine, jneubert (muted)
14:49:08 [Zakim]
On IRC I see marma, matolat, Asaf, michaelp, kcoyle, jneubert, digikim, antoine, pmurray, emma, RRSAgent, Zakim, TomB, edsu, jar, rsinger, ww
14:49:11 [matolat]
14:49:50 [TomB]
14:49:58 [TomB]
zakim, list attendees
14:49:58 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +, emma, TomB, +1.678.235.aabb, pmurray, jeff, ww, GordonD, +, bvatant, antoine, AlexanderH, digikim,
14:50:03 [Zakim]
... michaelp, rsinger, jneubert, Asaf, kcoyle?, marcia, Kai, [LC], matolat, kefo
14:50:28 [TomB]
ACTION: Everyone to elaborate on topics in the wiki [recorded in
14:50:30 [TomB]]
14:50:33 [TomB]
14:50:46 [TomB]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:50:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate TomB
14:54:00 [TomB],text
14:55:18 [TomB]
14:55:53 [Zakim]
14:56:07 [Zakim]
14:57:18 [Zakim]
14:57:18 [Zakim]
14:57:29 [Zakim]
14:57:30 [Zakim]
INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended
14:57:31 [Zakim]
Attendees were +, emma, TomB, +1.678.235.aabb, pmurray, jeff, ww, GordonD, +, bvatant, antoine, AlexanderH, digikim, michaelp, rsinger, jneubert,
14:57:34 [Zakim]
... Asaf, kcoyle?, marcia, Kai, [LC], matolat, kefo
15:03:01 [mhausenblas]
mhausenblas has joined #lld
15:53:12 [michaelp]
michaelp has left #lld
17:01:46 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #lld