13:15:09 RRSAgent has joined #lld 13:15:09 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-lld-irc 13:15:16 rssagent, bookmark 13:15:25 zakim, this will be LLD 13:15:25 ok, TomB; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 45 minutes 13:16:11 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Sep/0081.html 13:16:23 Meeting: LLD XG 13:16:36 Chair: Tom 13:16:46 rrsagent, please make record public 13:17:29 jeff_ has joined #lld 13:22:25 hooray! the +44 number answers today! 13:34:12 emma has joined #lld 13:35:35 Regrets: Ray, Annette, Felix, Lars, Monica 13:46:54 peter has joined #lld 13:50:34 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started 13:50:41 +[IPcaller] 13:53:32 antoine has joined #lld 13:53:48 GordonD has joined #lld 13:53:51 + +33.1.53.79.aaaa 13:54:19 zakim, IPcaller is me 13:54:19 +TomB; got it 13:55:06 + +1.678.235.aabb 13:55:23 +michaelp 13:55:25 bvatant has joined #lld 13:55:41 +??P6 13:55:47 zakim, P6 is me 13:55:47 sorry, ww, I do not recognize a party named 'P6' 13:56:01 Zakim: ??P6 is me 13:56:02 +[IPcaller] 13:56:07 Zakim mute me 13:56:21 Zakim, ??P6 is me 13:56:21 +ww; got it 13:56:26 Zakim, mute me please 13:56:26 ww should now be muted 13:57:37 digikim has joined #lld 13:57:50 + +33.9.71.48.aacc 13:57:55 AlexanderH has joined #lld 13:58:01 jneubert has joined #lld 13:58:04 +??P9 13:58:26 kcoyle has joined #lld 13:58:39 zakim, mute me 13:58:40 bvatant should now be muted 13:59:06 michaelp has joined #lld 13:59:11 +??P0 13:59:20 Asaf has joined #lld 13:59:40 +??P1 13:59:44 matolat has joined #lld 13:59:50 zakim, ??P1 is digikim 13:59:50 +digikim; got it 13:59:57 +jeff.a 14:00:28 +??P12 14:00:52 +??P14 14:00:57 kai has joined #lld 14:01:02 zakim, unmute me 14:01:13 +rsinger 14:01:15 ww should no longer be muted 14:01:17 +jneubert 14:01:19 +michaelp.a 14:01:35 zakim, asaf is really Asaf 14:01:41 +Asaf; got it 14:01:49 +marcia 14:01:54 Scribe: ww 14:02:00 Scribenick: ww 14:02:19 +??P22 14:03:18 Marcia has joined #lld 14:03:40 +[LC] 14:03:43 -Asaf 14:03:43 zoia, [LC] is edsu 14:03:49 kefo has joined #lld 14:03:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-lld-minutes.html antoine 14:04:04 RRSAgent, what are the action items? 14:04:04 I see no action items 14:04:14 zakim, michaelp.a is matolat 14:04:14 +matolat; got it 14:04:23 TOPIC: Admin 14:04:39 marma has joined #lld 14:04:49 +[LC.a] 14:05:05 +??P29 14:05:05 TomB: accept minutes of previous meeting? comments? 14:05:37 RESOLVED: Accept previous minutes 14:05:53 TOPIC: Face to face meetings 14:06:05 Tomb: meeting being prepared for friday oct. 22nd 14:06:23 ... have posted links recently, can discuss either in dc architecture mailing list or lld list 14:06:23 zakim, P29 is Asaf. 14:06:23 sorry, kai, I do not recognize a party named 'P29' 14:06:31 zakim, ??P29 is Asaf. 14:06:31 +Asaf; got it 14:06:31 ... logistics 14:06:41 ... have a data projector thanks to jeff from oclc 14:06:58 ... jeff is also willing to bring microphone and speakers, simple, doesn't have anything better 14:07:18 ... tomb thinks that because of size of meeting is suboptimal but it would work, unless somebody has better equipment 14:07:23 what type of mic and speaker s does he have? 14:07:29 ... idea is to have a wireless link to zakim, remote participants 14:08:05 ... remote participants would need to be able to hear as well as possible, those physically present would need to be able to hear any comments 14:08:16 I may bring some as backup 14:08:32 ... by default we'll just jeff's gear, but if anybody has anything better it would be great, please get in touch with one of the chairs 14:08:44 ... in the meantime thanks to jeff for offering to bring this basic equipment 14:08:45 do you need a notepad? 14:09:11 ... Fact to face meeting, there is a draft agenda with expected antendees 14:09:23 ... spend some time looking at this agenda and flesh it out 14:09:30 Draft agenda : http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F_Pittsburgh#Saturday.2C_23_October 14:09:33 ... three more teleconferences before the meeting 14:10:01 ... by oct 14th, the meeting before, we should have a complete agenda with everything people should read to prepare, with names of who is going to be leading each discussion 14:10:01 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F_Pittsburgh#Topics_to_be_assigned_to_slots 14:10:28 PROPOSAL: look at both the topic list and the agenda and walk through 14:10:51 ... saturday we want to start at 9 and go through until 6:30 because some people won't be able to stay over until sunday 14:11:00 ... that gives us five sections of 1-1.5 hour 14:11:11 ... morning of saturday 9 - 12:30 devoted to use cases 14:11:22 ... use cases could be clustered by topic or type 14:11:55 ... look at each case, discuss, toward the end of the session reach some generalisations about the use cases and plan the writing of the deliverables 14:12:10 q+ 14:12:12 yes 14:12:18 ack jeff 14:12:18 q+ 14:12:18 ... by the time we finish the first two sections we'll have a clear idea of what should be done in order to ... 14:12:30 jeff_: last week someone mentioned adding viaf 14:12:47 ... there is a use case for it, should it fold into the use case discussions or should it be broken out somehow 14:12:55 TomB: why would it not be a use case? 14:13:07 jeff_: it very well could... 14:13:22 @Jeff: could you deal with the creators of the use case and fit more explicit mention to VIAF? 14:13:29 ack kcoyle 14:13:41 who is talking?: if we had a use case we could take as much time as we need to look at it in that section of the meeting 14:13:58 s/who is talking?/kcoyle 14:14:00 kcoyle: seems to me topic list is broader than use cases and we will look at use cases in relation to topics 14:14:11 q+ 14:14:18 ... so maybe the topic discussion has to be first 14:14:31 TomB: we thought of this... 14:14:32 ack antoine 14:14:47 kcoyle: my mind it could be topic first, but could go either way 14:14:56 antoine: easier if we have concrete examples before going to the topic list 14:15:07 q+ 14:15:11 kcoyle: has anyone done an analysis of looking at use cases and topic list and looking at the gaps? 14:15:25 ... topics for which we don't have a use case, are there use cases for which we don't have a topic 14:15:27 +1 14:15:34 +1 14:15:36 ... should do this before the meeting because we may want to fill in 14:15:46 ack emma 14:15:46 +1 too 14:15:56 TomB: in the next three calls we should do this, try to cluster things 14:16:25 emma: idea that we need to gather the use cases according to the topics so that we can analyse them as a group because we may not have time to discuss them individually 14:16:28 q? 14:16:36 +1 14:16:40 ... so we need to gather them in a bundle and then discuss them together 14:16:58 I'm willing to help. 14:16:58 I can do that 14:17:00 ... would like to do it but not alone, would like help 14:17:09 I can assist 14:17:10 I could 14:17:29 I can help too 14:18:08 ACTION: emma, kcoyle, GordonD, Marcia, bvatant to structure the discussion of use cases in light of the topic list 14:18:29 TomB: movng onto the afternoon 14:18:50 ... afternoon could be the time that we look at the topics that do not fall into a use case and take a broader look at the topic list 14:19:04 ... picturing that the optic list would provide the overall framework for that discussion 14:19:22 ... hoping that we will have had a good discussion on friday about application profiles, that we could come to some conclusions 14:19:34 ... next few weeks would be a good time to go through the topic list 14:19:51 ... who has expressed interest in which topics 14:20:04 ... sequence in which we would like to deal with these topics in 14:20:12 ... in the last hour be very specific about what deliverables 14:20:26 ... and who is going to be responsible for writing the deliverables 14:20:27 Q+ 14:20:32 ack emma 14:20:34 ... anyone have ideas about how we might approach this 14:20:47 emma: just a suggestion, is in the draft agenda 14:21:14 ... topic discussion could be moved on sunday morning because we might not have connection to zakim on sunday so we might take this topic which is harder to follow online anyway to sunday 14:21:19 TomB: which topic/ 14:21:39 emma: going through the list of topics, list of topics, who is interested in what... i thought we would want to do that on sunday 14:21:42 There are several topics for discussion embedded in the Library standards and linked data wiki page - no need to duplicate as use cases? but should be on the f2f meeting agenda, say Saturday pm 14:22:01 ... but maybe its not important if we do it on saturday afternoon, but we have to keep in mind that we may not have same connection facilities 14:22:02 I thought going over the topics, whi is interested in what etc. was for the "next few weeks", not the conf. itself? 14:22:11 TomB: what discuss sat aft? 14:22:24 emma: vocabularies, where gordon was reporting on library standards 14:22:40 The topic cluster group (just formed) could fold the Library standards topics into the use-case clusters 14:22:45 ... lot of issues, not only relevant to standards, relevant to vocabularies in general 14:23:05 ... if we ask people which vocabularies they are using in their use cases, this could be an interesting starting point for discussion 14:23:11 +1 on discussing vocabularies on Saturday afternoon 14:23:24 TomB: sound sfine to me 14:23:37 GordonD: just texted a couple of suggestions if you read up on the irc 14:23:58 ... just echoing what emma's just said, there's stuff in the library standards doc that needs to be included 14:24:08 ... fold into agenda, or more usefully fold into topic clusters 14:24:21 s/sfine/fine 14:24:24 TomB: thought they would be folded in topic discussion 14:24:48 ... but like the idea of looking of vocabularies in use cases and looking at them one by one 14:25:11 ... trying to generalise and about the isues related to these vocabularies in the way that gordon has done in the piece that he posted 14:25:39 +1 14:25:43 ... so to consolidate some of those issues having to do with bounded or unbounded properties that sort of thing, design issues that specific vocabularies but of interest to vocabularies generally, 14:26:01 ... gordon odes that cover your points? 14:26:11 s/odes/does 14:26:11 GordonD: in fact i suggested saturday afternoon as well so i think we are in agreement 14:26:22 TomB: any other comments on saturday? 14:26:36 ... some people have to leave on saturday 14:26:53 ... sunday morning we won't have zakim so we'll have to brainstorm the old fasioned way 14:26:59 q+ 14:27:01 ... any other issues to discuss for sunday? 14:27:16 ... i think that covers what i wanted to get hte ball rolling on for the meeting in pittsburgh 14:27:21 q+ 14:27:26 ... we need to push this forward in the next three calls 14:27:35 -bvatant 14:27:42 ... and turn this into an agenda where we have links to everything that needs to be read and a rough idea of the sequence 14:27:49 ... ifrst priority use case 14:27:57 ... feeds into discussion of vocabularies 14:28:08 ... progress in the next week on structuring use case part of the meeting that would be great 14:28:20 ... on the basis of that start look at structuring the afternoon 14:28:32 q? 14:28:34 ... not worried about structirng the sunday morning session, we'll have plenty to talk about 14:28:46 ack antoine 14:28:49 q? 14:28:56 +bvatant 14:29:32 ack kcoyle 14:29:33 antoine: just to clarify there was a question from asaf on the channel about the action on the topic list in which he thought that going over the topics was for the next few weeks not for the f2f itself, just want to remind everyone to have a look to the topic list so they can make comments or put their names there 14:29:38 Thanks, Antoine. 14:29:40 ... so that we can be as prepared as possible 14:29:54 kcoyle: administrative, do you have a style for assigning scribe duty for these meetings 14:30:12 TomB: have rotating scribe list that has been taking shape, when someboday scribes their name goes to the bottom of the list 14:30:33 kcoyle: i was thinking about the face to face meeting, seems to me that beforehand we want to assign someone, 14:30:47 ... for sunday where there's no wireless want to make sure that somebody has all the documents on them 14:31:24 bvatant has joined #lld 14:31:28 TomB: good point. will make sure that we assign... an hour and a half is a long time to scribe, sort of on the border line... we'lll take a look on the last call before the meeting to see who will be available, make sure we have a designated laptop and that all the documents we need are on it 14:31:44 TOPIC: use cases and use case studies 14:31:52 TomB: the use cases are coming in 14:32:08 ... all of the use cases are being linked to htis wiki page called UseCases 14:32:15 ... would someone like to comment on these/ 14:32:15 ? 14:32:36 antoine: yeah i can just briefly comment on the fact that the UseCases page has been edited a bit. 14:33:11 ... i moved some of the process information onto another wiki page, based on a suggestion by you, so that we have something that is not polluted by previous suggestions when we want to discuss the use cases themselves 14:33:13 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_case_process_details 14:33:22 TomB: nothing else on this this week 14:33:22 q+ to suggest new members introduce themselves 14:33:22 quick note: I'll be contributing a use-case for Project Ben-Yehuda 14:33:42 TOPIC: lod discussion 14:34:09 q+ to continue action on topics 14:34:13 TOPIC: wiki pages for capturing relevant links and ideas 14:34:23 ... any comments on status and how they're shaping up? 14:34:32 ... for example library technology explained 14:34:41 ... emma how libray standards are related 14:35:12 emma: i think we probably.. .there is a need to have some material that you can reuse for presentations, that was the idea that was intended in the beginning 14:35:17 ... just checking 14:35:37 ... in the presentation page we were trying to find all the interesting presentations that we had on libraries and linked data 14:35:58 ... this is useful, but when i'm building a resentation i go to this page and use the material, but i'm not sure if i can reuse it 14:36:20 ... we have gathered a lot of presentations, but i would suggest we move it forward, to identify what is really useful, what has been tested and what is missing 14:36:25 Will SKOSified vocabulary cases be counted? 14:36:35 ... a suggestion, i know karen was more ore less in charge of this, 14:36:40 re re-use: presentations should have clear license information (CC etc.) 14:36:45 TomB: good topic for sunday morning 14:36:59 ... maybe clarify permission to reuse... license, creative commons 14:37:01 Be careful with discussing online material on sunday morning! 14:37:05 +1 for CC license 14:37:06 emma: or maybe contact the authors 14:37:22 kcoyle: seems to me one of the things tomb and i had talked about was developing actual graphics that are available to pepople 14:37:40 ... perhaps after we have gone over the topic list we could look at the topics and see which ones need illustrations 14:37:46 Are there governing guidelines from W3C that would specify licensing terms? 14:38:04 ... then either develop illustrations we could put a CC license on it, or see if we could find illustrations that could be reused, contact the authors 14:38:08 +1 14:38:14 TomB: i actually put some slides in that have some illustrations 14:38:21 http://dublincore.org/resources/training/NISO_Webinar_20100825/dcmi-webinar-02.pdf 14:38:39 ... these slides here have some illustrations along the lines of what i'd like to see more of 14:38:54 ... things that make it graphicall yclear that triples are the expression of arcs in a graph 14:38:59 ... and that all of those are statements 14:39:16 ... graphics that get people really thinking about seeing how a graph is constructed out of statements 14:39:29 ... and how its all encoded in triples and how it could be encoded in different syntaxes 14:39:47 ... i would be interested in looking at those slides for example, and thinking about whether we could improve on the graphics... 14:40:06 ... and find a way, specifically for lld, to leverage some of the existing other vocabularies 14:40:17 ... find some examples that make these connections clear to people 14:40:19 q? 14:40:23 ack emma 14:40:23 emma, you wanted to suggest new members introduce themselves 14:40:29 emma: complete other topic 14:40:37 ... to suggest that the new members could introduce themselves 14:40:42 ... there are three of them 14:40:53 TomB: on my list to do in last few minutes of the call 14:41:04 ack antoine 14:41:04 antoine, you wanted to continue action on topics 14:41:05 emma: let me add that they shouldn't be shy to come into the queue and talk 14:41:11 ... so feel free! 14:41:22 antoine: something that goes later because we forgot to continue an action 14:41:36 TomB: action on everyone to contribute to the topic list? 14:41:39 antoine: yes 14:41:43 TOPIC: upcoming topics 14:41:53 TomB: don't thinkg there's anything we need to say... placeholders 14:42:04 TOPIC: any other business? 14:42:11 right 14:42:22 TomB: three new participants, Asaf, would you like to say a few words? 14:42:22 +q to introduce myself. 14:42:33 +q 14:43:06 Asaf: i'm interested in lld because i'm the editor and software designed for a digital library called project ben-yehuda 14:43:20 ... it's a public domain repository of hebrew texts 14:43:38 ... unlike gutenberg our items are individual stories, poems, etc. unlike "book" 14:43:50 ... interested in a rich catalog because many of our works discuss each other 14:44:05 ... very keen about having rich semantic relations in our internal catalogue 14:44:16 ... in addition, sharing our metadata 14:44:28 ... hebrew libraries use book data, e.g. marc 14:44:46 ... concern is to share rich metadata and in the future benefit from others sharing.... 14:44:49 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Sep/0088.html 14:45:11 ... for example, we have a translation of Romeo and Juliet and want a universal identifier for shakespeare and the work, 14:45:21 ... so that i can tie in to it... 14:45:26 TomB: welcome 14:45:39 ... Kevin, this is your first call as a member? 14:45:58 TomB: Peter? 14:46:15 pmurray: assistant director of lyr? 14:46:17 ww++ # you're doing great! 14:46:22 lyrasis 14:46:29 ... academic libraries for east coast of united states... 14:46:34 ... 3000 member libraries 14:46:42 ... interest in linked data to enhance discovery services 14:46:54 ... particularly interested, working witha collegue Ron Murray at LOC 14:47:04 ... to instill aspects of FRBR into library bibliographic data 14:47:11 ... turn the marc data inside out 14:47:21 ... to be a graph of links between entities 14:47:36 ... that this w3c wg got started was right along the lines that i was thinking working with him 14:47:40 ... happy to be a part of this 14:47:56 TomB: other newcomers? 14:48:00 ... further business? 14:48:08 ... we are actually allowed to finish early 14:48:21 -Kai 14:48:21 ... so let's adjourn this meeting and talk next week 14:48:22 -jeff 14:48:24 -kcoyle? 14:48:24 -[LC] 14:48:25 ... thank you ery much 14:48:27 -GordonD 14:48:28 -pmurray 14:48:28 -AlexanderH 14:48:29 -michaelp 14:48:29 -bvatant 14:48:30 -kefo 14:48:31 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:48:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-lld-minutes.html antoine 14:48:32 -rsinger 14:48:34 -marcia 14:48:36 -digikim 14:48:39 bye 14:48:40 jeff_ has left #lld 14:48:41 -matolat 14:48:46 -Asaf 14:48:56 -matolat 14:49:07 zakim, who is here? 14:49:07 On the phone I see TomB, emma, ww, antoine, jneubert (muted) 14:49:08 On IRC I see marma, matolat, Asaf, michaelp, kcoyle, jneubert, digikim, antoine, pmurray, emma, RRSAgent, Zakim, TomB, edsu, jar, rsinger, ww 14:49:11 quit 14:49:50 [adjourned] 14:49:58 zakim, list attendees 14:49:58 As of this point the attendees have been +33.1.53.79.aaaa, emma, TomB, +1.678.235.aabb, pmurray, jeff, ww, GordonD, +33.9.71.48.aacc, bvatant, antoine, AlexanderH, digikim, 14:50:03 ... michaelp, rsinger, jneubert, Asaf, kcoyle?, marcia, Kai, [LC], matolat, kefo 14:50:28 ACTION: Everyone to elaborate on topics in the wiki [recorded in 14:50:30 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/08-lld-minutes.html#action08] 14:50:33 --continues 14:50:46 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:50:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-lld-minutes.html TomB 14:54:00 http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-lld-minutes.html,text 14:55:18 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/16-lld-minutes.html 14:55:53 -ww 14:56:07 -jneubert 14:57:18 -TomB 14:57:18 -emma 14:57:29 -antoine 14:57:30 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended 14:57:31 Attendees were +33.1.53.79.aaaa, emma, TomB, +1.678.235.aabb, pmurray, jeff, ww, GordonD, +33.9.71.48.aacc, bvatant, antoine, AlexanderH, digikim, michaelp, rsinger, jneubert, 14:57:34 ... Asaf, kcoyle?, marcia, Kai, [LC], matolat, kefo 15:03:01 mhausenblas has joined #lld 15:53:12 michaelp has left #lld 17:01:46 Zakim has left #lld