00:30:05 Judy has joined #html-a11y
01:54:03 Judy has joined #html-a11y
03:33:02 Judy has joined #html-a11y
04:09:09 Judy has joined #html-a11y
04:27:39 Judy has joined #html-a11y
05:09:41 MikeSmith_ has joined #html-a11y
14:56:50 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:56:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-irc
14:56:53 JF has joined #html-a11y
14:57:02 zakim, make log public
14:57:02 I don't understand 'make log public', janina
14:57:12 zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML
14:57:12 ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM already started
14:57:14 zakim, make logs public
14:57:14 I don't understand 'make logs public', oedipus
14:57:17 zakim, make log public
14:57:17 I don't understand 'make log public', janina
14:57:29 rrsagent, make log public
14:57:31 maybe he needs a scribe first?
14:57:38 zakim, call janina
14:57:38 ok, janina; the call is being made
14:57:39 +Janina
14:57:47 I don't hear anyone on
14:57:59 I made mine extra strong today
14:58:10 +??P1
14:58:16 +Gregory_Rosmaita
14:58:19 +John_Foliot
14:58:34 +Eric_Carlson
14:58:54 eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
14:59:12 zakim, who is here?
14:59:12 On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, ??P1, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson
14:59:15 On IRC I see eric_carlson, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, richardschwerdtfe, kliehm, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, MikeSmith, janina, trackbot
14:59:17 +Michael_Cooper
15:00:16 zakim, ??P1 is Everett_Zufelt
15:00:16 +Everett_Zufelt; got it
15:00:25 ezufelt has joined #html-a11y
15:00:44 regrets: Aurelien_Levy,Kenny_Johar,Silvia_Pfeiffer,Marco_Ranon,Laura_Carlson,Denis_Boudreau
15:01:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:01:08 +kliehm
15:01:14 zakim, who's here?
15:01:14 On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Everett_Zufelt, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Michael_Cooper, kliehm
15:01:17 On IRC I see EverettZ, eric_carlson, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, richardschwerdtfe, kliehm, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, MikeSmith, janina, trackbot
15:01:48 zakim, who's making noise?
15:01:58 oedipus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Rich_Schwerdtfeger (21%), Michael_Cooper (14%), Janina (10%)
15:02:00 meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Telecon
15:02:23 chair: Janina_Sajka
15:02:29 Gez has joined #html-a11y
15:02:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:02:50 +[IPcaller]
15:03:12 adrianba has joined #html-a11y
15:03:46 zakim, who's here?
15:03:46 On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Everett_Zufelt, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Michael_Cooper, kliehm (muted), [IPcaller]
15:03:48 On IRC I see adrianba, Gez, EverettZ, eric_carlson, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, richardschwerdtfe, kliehm, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, MikeSmith, janina, trackbot
15:04:33 zakim, IPcaller is Gez
15:04:33 +Gez; got it
15:04:35 jongunderson has joined #html-a11y
15:05:00 +??P12
15:05:10 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0499.html
15:05:23 +[Microsoft]
15:05:27 zakim, ??P12 is jongund
15:05:27 +jongund; got it
15:05:31 zakim, ??p12 is John_Gunderson
15:05:31 I already had ??P12 as jongund, janina
15:05:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:05:45 zakim, [Microsoft] has adrianba
15:05:45 +adrianba; got it
15:05:46 Zakim, call Mike-goog
15:05:46 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:05:47 +Mike
15:05:54 s/maybe he needs a scribe first?//
15:06:22 scribe:Martin_Kliehm
15:06:22 zakim, drop mike
15:06:22 Mike is being disconnected
15:06:24 -Mike
15:06:32 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
15:06:32 Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:06:32 agenda: this
15:06:32 agenda+ Identify Scribe
15:06:32 agenda+ Keyboard Access Requirements
15:06:33 agenda+ Drag & Drop
15:06:34 scribenic:kliehm
15:06:35 agenda+ Subteam Minutes & Procedures Discussion
15:06:37 agenda+ Actions Review
15:06:39 agenda+ TF Recommendations Followup & Updates
15:06:41 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage
15:06:43 agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
15:06:43 s/I don't hear anyone on//
15:06:45 agenda+ be done
15:06:47
15:06:56 s/I made mine extra strong today//
15:07:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:07:11 Zakim, call Mike-goog
15:07:11 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:07:13 +Mike
15:07:38 s/scribenic:kliehm/scribenick: kliehm/
15:07:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:07:53 TOPIC: Keyboard Access Requirements
15:09:13 Janina: Discussed keyboard accessibility yesterday, will be on the agenda at UA telcon later
15:09:47 cyns has joined #html-a11y
15:09:55 Gregory: Taking accesskey from HTML4 and logging bugs against HTML5 to restore and improve functionality.
15:10:18 paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:10:59 +Cynthia_Shelly
15:11:20 Gregory. Working with the UAAG WG, keyboard is just a one device for device independence. Checked against WCAG 2.0 if everything is already in HTML5 and if HTML4 has been imported.
15:11:31 s/Gergory./Gregory:/
15:12:29 q?
15:12:37 +[Microsoft.a]
15:12:42 Gregory: With Léonie will write up the requirements for the element formerly known as accesskey until next week.
15:13:02 John: need help?
15:13:21 Gregory: will get back to you and other people for feedack.
15:13:31 s/feedack/feedback/
15:13:59 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements
15:14:14 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements
15:14:32 Janina: If we need to set-up a telcon we'll do this. The goal needs to have filed bugs by October 1st.
15:14:58 s/filed bugs/bugs filed/
15:15:50 +??P17
15:16:25 Gregory: Answering use cases: some WCAG 2.0 techniques have explanatory notes, there's also discussion on PF requirements.
15:16:32 Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:17:49 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access
15:17:56 Gregory: Work is required to restore functionality that used to be in HTML4 in HTML5, also new functionality is yet underspecified. For example a case of multiple access keys where a pseudo-cascade exists.
15:18:07 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/access_key_requirements
15:18:18 zakim, [Microsoft] has franko
15:18:18 +franko; got it
15:18:50 s/Answering use cases:/(answering use cases question)/
15:19:44 JF suggests we move this to the list
15:20:17 John: use cases will help implementors to understand better when accesskeys will be useful.
15:20:19 GJR: thinks there is enough work to do filing the bugs -- don't know if ad-hoc would really help
15:20:53 GJR: would rather have side-skype chats as necessary
15:21:03 +1 greg
15:21:14 s/John: use cases/John Gunderson: use cases/
15:21:21 problems with accesskey-as-is in HTML5: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/access_key_requirements
15:21:25 TOPIC: Drag & Drap
15:21:50 s/John Gunderson/Jon Gunderson
15:22:01 Gez: Wrote an email last week http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0446.html
15:22:19 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0444.html
15:23:09 Gez: Everett suggested a great suggestion...
15:23:17 zakim, who is here?
15:23:17 On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Everett_Zufelt, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Michael_Cooper, kliehm (muted), Gez, jongund, [Microsoft], Mike,
15:23:20 ... Cynthia_Shelly, [Microsoft.a], ??P17
15:23:20 [Microsoft] has franko
15:23:21 On IRC I see Stevef, paulc, cyns, jongunderson, adrianba, Gez, EverettZ, eric_carlson, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, richardschwerdtfe, kliehm, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, MikeSmith, janina,
15:23:24 ... trackbot
15:23:39 zakim, ??P17 is Steve_Faulkner
15:23:39 +Steve_Faulkner; got it
15:23:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:25:25 Everett: The event model is robust. Gez identified problems with the workflow and the order of events being fired during drag & drop. I mapped those events to a keyboard scenario.
15:25:30 GJR: still maintains that drag and drop is copy-and-paste / cut-and-paste for non-mouse non-visual users
15:26:18 q+ to ask if we need to restore a copy and paste API into HTML5?
15:26:22 q+
15:26:59 Everett: Screenreaders need a list of draggable items and available dropboxes through a menu.
15:27:34 Everett: would be helpful to have an attribute for drop target or dropable.
15:28:09 drag and drop proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0410.html
15:28:10 Rich: We have all that in ARIA: aria-grab set to false means it's draggable, true means it's being dragged.
15:28:36 martin on drag and drop next steps: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0440.html
15:28:53 q+
15:28:55 Everett: My preference would be not to use ARIA because it's attaching an external resource instead of having it natively in HTML5.
15:29:02 q?
15:29:04 Rich: ARIA is part of HTML5.
15:29:18 Greg: We'd like to follow the ARIA workflow.
15:30:05 s/follow the ARIA workflow/follow the ARIA workflow but have accessible drag and drop as a native aspect of HTML5
15:30:50 John G.: There's a difference for an author between making an item focusable while a list of draggable objects would remove that burden from the author.
15:31:03 q?
15:34:20 q-
15:35:49 EZ: list - as move through list, events fire
15:36:16 RS: you want a list of droptargets - user navigate through list to do drop -- will you be able to provide sufficient contextual info for user?
15:36:30 Everett: expect user agent to generate a list of draggable objects and drop targets. An author would still need to identify the elements.
15:37:41 q?
15:37:41 ack oe
15:37:42 oedipus, you wanted to ask if we need to restore a copy and paste API into HTML5?
15:38:04 Everett: for complex lists a title or an aria-label could provide additional information, but for screenreader users it's not an easy task. We'll need to do our best.
15:38:54 right, it is a circumscribed copy/cut and paste
15:39:10 Greg: Is the equivalent of drag and drop comparable to copy and paste?
15:39:28 ack rich
15:39:33 q?
15:39:42 Everett: It's different since drag & drop has a list of drop targets.
15:39:51 cyns has joined #html-a11y
15:40:55 Rich: Screenreaders have a lot of information of contextual information that would be lost if the UA just displays a simple menu list.
15:41:32 q?
15:41:48 q+
15:42:09 Everett: A UA could provide more contextual content when the user requests it with keys.
15:42:30 extended meta data queries need to be built into ATs, especially screen readers
15:43:33 q+
15:43:46 keyboard events in DOM3: http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-DOM-Level-3-Events-20100907/#events-keyboardevents
15:44:04 q+
15:44:09 Adrian: Came to pretty much the same conclusion as Everett. Don't see much work on the vendor site. Just need a list of enumerated items of drop targets. With event bubbling it's unclear where an object has been dropped, defining a drop target would help.
15:44:33 Janina: What have we missed?
15:45:21 s/object has been dropped/object could be dropped/
15:45:36 q?
15:45:44 Greg: Drag & drop could be seen as a limited copy & paste API where the available drop targets is limited.
15:45:59 q-
15:46:15 ack a
15:47:21 Rich: List of drop targets is important, but I'd take the other things into consideration as well. Like going to one drop target and easily moving to the next.
15:48:13 under the section 5.3 "Drag and Drop" there used to appear section 5.3.5. "Copy and Paste" reproduced below: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/#copy-and
15:48:15 q?
15:48:19 ack j
15:48:21 Jon Gunderson: What's keeping an author from defining the whole document as droppable?
15:48:54 Everett: Can't keep an author from it, but it wouldn't be according to the spec.
15:49:13 paste from selection (copy and paste portion of old draft's section on DnD: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/#paste0
15:49:26 GJR will put all this info onlist in an email
15:49:47 "Copy-and-paste is a form of drag-and-drop: the "copy" part is equivalent to dragging content to another application (the "clipboard"), and the "paste" part is equivalent to dragging content from another application. "
15:49:52 Jon: Event delegation is important for author for performance reasons.
15:52:36 -kliehm
15:53:14 amen to steve - a LOT of keyboard navigators don't use AT
15:53:46 +kliehm
15:53:49 JS: AT is a "last resort" there are a lot of people who need keyboard support and native support because don't rely on ATY
15:54:35 Everett: Limiting the number of events being fired would increase performance more than setting a number of event listeners.
15:54:58 s/don't rely on ATY/don't rely on AT/
15:55:01 +1 with Steve. File the bugs, back-fill later
15:55:52 +q
15:55:59 dnd proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0410.html
15:56:18 Everett: suggesting to file a bug saying the spec needs to be less device specific or provide additional examples.
15:56:24 next steps on dnd from kliehm: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0440.html
15:56:31 -[Microsoft.a]
15:57:07 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html
15:57:18 zakim, [Microsoft.a] is Paul_Cotton
15:57:18 sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft.a]'
15:57:23 zakim, [Microsoft.a] was Paul_Cotton
15:57:23 I don't understand '[Microsoft.a] was Paul_Cotton', oedipus
15:57:26 Rich: The terminology could be improved because "drag" is not device independent, could be more agnostic.
15:57:40 present- Microsoft.a
15:57:49 s/Rich: The terminology/Everett: The terminology/
15:58:13 JF, no the copy and paste API that used to be in HTML5 but was removed
15:58:22 John F.: Let's get the bugs in even if they are not fully fleshed out
15:58:22 present+ Paul_Cotton
15:58:32 Janina: Who's filing the bugs?
15:59:12 Gez?
16:00:16 -[Microsoft]
16:00:18 adrianba has left #html-a11y
16:00:44 Janina: Concern from facilitators that we're losing minutes. Please keep quality up so that we're able to track progress.
16:01:01 s/Gez?/Gez will file the bugs./
16:01:02 copy and paste section of HTML5's drag and drop no longer in spec http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0525.html
16:01:29 Greg, your email came through to the list
16:01:29 Janina: Thanks everyone.
16:01:55 -Everett_Zufelt
16:01:57 -Cynthia_Shelly
16:01:58 -Gez
16:01:58 -John_Foliot
16:01:59 -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:01:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:02:00 -jongund
16:02:00 -Michael_Cooper
16:02:04 Gez has left #html-a11y
16:02:05 -Steve_Faulkner
16:02:07 -Janina
16:02:09 -Eric_Carlson
16:02:10 janina has left #html-a11y
16:02:13 -Gregory_Rosmaita
16:03:04 zakim, list participants
16:03:06 As of this point the attendees have been Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Michael_Cooper, Everett_Zufelt, kliehm, Gez, jongund, adrianba,
16:03:11 ... Mike, Cynthia_Shelly, [Microsoft], franko, Steve_Faulkner
16:03:46 rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:04:19 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Michael_Cooper, Everett_Zufelt, kliehm, Gez, jongund,
16:04:19 Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:04:23