IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-09-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:30:05 [Judy]
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03:33:02 [Judy]
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04:09:09 [Judy]
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04:27:39 [Judy]
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05:09:41 [MikeSmith_]
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14:56:50 [RRSAgent]
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14:56:50 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-irc
14:56:53 [JF]
JF has joined #html-a11y
14:57:02 [janina]
zakim, make log public
14:57:02 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make log public', janina
14:57:12 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML
14:57:12 [Zakim]
ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM already started
14:57:14 [oedipus]
zakim, make logs public
14:57:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make logs public', oedipus
14:57:17 [janina]
zakim, make log public
14:57:17 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make log public', janina
14:57:29 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make log public
14:57:31 [janina]
maybe he needs a scribe first?
14:57:38 [janina]
zakim, call janina
14:57:38 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
14:57:39 [Zakim]
+Janina
14:57:47 [richardschwerdtfe]
I don't hear anyone on
14:57:59 [janina]
I made mine extra strong today
14:58:10 [Zakim]
+??P1
14:58:16 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
14:58:19 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot
14:58:34 [Zakim]
+Eric_Carlson
14:58:54 [eric_carlson]
eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
14:59:12 [oedipus]
zakim, who is here?
14:59:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, ??P1, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson
14:59:15 [Zakim]
On IRC I see eric_carlson, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, richardschwerdtfe, kliehm, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, MikeSmith, janina, trackbot
14:59:17 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
15:00:16 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P1 is Everett_Zufelt
15:00:16 [Zakim]
+Everett_Zufelt; got it
15:00:25 [ezufelt]
ezufelt has joined #html-a11y
15:00:44 [oedipus]
regrets: Aurelien_Levy,Kenny_Johar,Silvia_Pfeiffer,Marco_Ranon,Laura_Carlson,Denis_Boudreau
15:01:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:01:08 [Zakim]
+kliehm
15:01:14 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
15:01:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Everett_Zufelt, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Michael_Cooper, kliehm
15:01:17 [Zakim]
On IRC I see EverettZ, eric_carlson, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, richardschwerdtfe, kliehm, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, MikeSmith, janina, trackbot
15:01:48 [oedipus]
zakim, who's making noise?
15:01:58 [Zakim]
oedipus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Rich_Schwerdtfeger (21%), Michael_Cooper (14%), Janina (10%)
15:02:00 [oedipus]
meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Telecon
15:02:23 [oedipus]
chair: Janina_Sajka
15:02:29 [Gez]
Gez has joined #html-a11y
15:02:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:02:50 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:03:12 [adrianba]
adrianba has joined #html-a11y
15:03:46 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
15:03:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Everett_Zufelt, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Michael_Cooper, kliehm (muted), [IPcaller]
15:03:48 [Zakim]
On IRC I see adrianba, Gez, EverettZ, eric_carlson, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, richardschwerdtfe, kliehm, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, MikeSmith, janina, trackbot
15:04:33 [oedipus]
zakim, IPcaller is Gez
15:04:33 [Zakim]
+Gez; got it
15:04:35 [jongunderson]
jongunderson has joined #html-a11y
15:05:00 [Zakim]
+??P12
15:05:10 [oedipus]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0499.html
15:05:23 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
15:05:27 [jongunderson]
zakim, ??P12 is jongund
15:05:27 [Zakim]
+jongund; got it
15:05:31 [janina]
zakim, ??p12 is John_Gunderson
15:05:31 [Zakim]
I already had ??P12 as jongund, janina
15:05:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:05:45 [adrianba]
zakim, [Microsoft] has adrianba
15:05:45 [Zakim]
+adrianba; got it
15:05:46 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike-goog
15:05:46 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:05:47 [Zakim]
+Mike
15:05:54 [oedipus]
s/maybe he needs a scribe first?//
15:06:22 [kliehm]
scribe:Martin_Kliehm
15:06:22 [MichaelC]
zakim, drop mike
15:06:22 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
15:06:24 [Zakim]
-Mike
15:06:32 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
15:06:32 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:06:32 [janina]
agenda: this
15:06:32 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe
15:06:32 [janina]
agenda+ Keyboard Access Requirements
15:06:33 [janina]
agenda+ Drag & Drop
15:06:34 [kliehm]
scribenic:kliehm
15:06:35 [janina]
agenda+ Subteam Minutes & Procedures Discussion
15:06:37 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review
15:06:39 [janina]
agenda+ TF Recommendations Followup & Updates
15:06:41 [janina]
agenda+ Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage
15:06:43 [janina]
agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
15:06:43 [oedipus]
s/I don't hear anyone on//
15:06:45 [janina]
agenda+ be done
15:06:47 [janina]
15:06:56 [oedipus]
s/I made mine extra strong today//
15:07:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:07:11 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike-goog
15:07:11 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:07:13 [Zakim]
+Mike
15:07:38 [oedipus]
s/scribenic:kliehm/scribenick: kliehm/
15:07:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:07:53 [kliehm]
TOPIC: Keyboard Access Requirements
15:09:13 [kliehm]
Janina: Discussed keyboard accessibility yesterday, will be on the agenda at UA telcon later
15:09:47 [cyns]
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15:09:55 [kliehm]
Gregory: Taking accesskey from HTML4 and logging bugs against HTML5 to restore and improve functionality.
15:10:18 [paulc]
paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:10:59 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
15:11:20 [kliehm]
Gregory. Working with the UAAG WG, keyboard is just a one device for device independence. Checked against WCAG 2.0 if everything is already in HTML5 and if HTML4 has been imported.
15:11:31 [kliehm]
s/Gergory./Gregory:/
15:12:29 [MikeSmith]
q?
15:12:37 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
15:12:42 [kliehm]
Gregory: With LĂ©onie will write up the requirements for the element formerly known as accesskey until next week.
15:13:02 [kliehm]
John: need help?
15:13:21 [kliehm]
Gregory: will get back to you and other people for feedack.
15:13:31 [kliehm]
s/feedack/feedback/
15:13:59 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements
15:14:14 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements
15:14:32 [kliehm]
Janina: If we need to set-up a telcon we'll do this. The goal needs to have filed bugs by October 1st.
15:14:58 [kliehm]
s/filed bugs/bugs filed/
15:15:50 [Zakim]
+??P17
15:16:25 [kliehm]
Gregory: Answering use cases: some WCAG 2.0 techniques have explanatory notes, there's also discussion on PF requirements.
15:16:32 [Stevef]
Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:17:49 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access
15:17:56 [kliehm]
Gregory: Work is required to restore functionality that used to be in HTML4 in HTML5, also new functionality is yet underspecified. For example a case of multiple access keys where a pseudo-cascade exists.
15:18:07 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/access_key_requirements
15:18:18 [adrianba]
zakim, [Microsoft] has franko
15:18:18 [Zakim]
+franko; got it
15:18:50 [kliehm]
s/Answering use cases:/(answering use cases question)/
15:19:44 [JF]
JF suggests we move this to the list
15:20:17 [kliehm]
John: use cases will help implementors to understand better when accesskeys will be useful.
15:20:19 [oedipus]
GJR: thinks there is enough work to do filing the bugs -- don't know if ad-hoc would really help
15:20:53 [oedipus]
GJR: would rather have side-skype chats as necessary
15:21:03 [JF]
+1 greg
15:21:14 [kliehm]
s/John: use cases/John Gunderson: use cases/
15:21:21 [oedipus]
problems with accesskey-as-is in HTML5: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/access_key_requirements
15:21:25 [kliehm]
TOPIC: Drag & Drap
15:21:50 [JF]
s/John Gunderson/Jon Gunderson
15:22:01 [kliehm]
Gez: Wrote an email last week http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0446.html
15:22:19 [Gez]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0444.html
15:23:09 [kliehm]
Gez: Everett suggested a great suggestion...
15:23:17 [oedipus]
zakim, who is here?
15:23:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Everett_Zufelt, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Michael_Cooper, kliehm (muted), Gez, jongund, [Microsoft], Mike,
15:23:20 [Zakim]
... Cynthia_Shelly, [Microsoft.a], ??P17
15:23:20 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has franko
15:23:21 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Stevef, paulc, cyns, jongunderson, adrianba, Gez, EverettZ, eric_carlson, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, richardschwerdtfe, kliehm, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, MikeSmith, janina,
15:23:24 [Zakim]
... trackbot
15:23:39 [oedipus]
zakim, ??P17 is Steve_Faulkner
15:23:39 [Zakim]
+Steve_Faulkner; got it
15:23:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:25:25 [kliehm]
Everett: The event model is robust. Gez identified problems with the workflow and the order of events being fired during drag & drop. I mapped those events to a keyboard scenario.
15:25:30 [oedipus]
GJR: still maintains that drag and drop is copy-and-paste / cut-and-paste for non-mouse non-visual users
15:26:18 [oedipus]
q+ to ask if we need to restore a copy and paste API into HTML5?
15:26:22 [richardschwerdtfe]
q+
15:26:59 [kliehm]
Everett: Screenreaders need a list of draggable items and available dropboxes through a menu.
15:27:34 [kliehm]
Everett: would be helpful to have an attribute for drop target or dropable.
15:28:09 [oedipus]
drag and drop proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0410.html
15:28:10 [kliehm]
Rich: We have all that in ARIA: aria-grab set to false means it's draggable, true means it's being dragged.
15:28:36 [oedipus]
martin on drag and drop next steps: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0440.html
15:28:53 [adrianba]
q+
15:28:55 [kliehm]
Everett: My preference would be not to use ARIA because it's attaching an external resource instead of having it natively in HTML5.
15:29:02 [MikeSmith]
q?
15:29:04 [kliehm]
Rich: ARIA is part of HTML5.
15:29:18 [kliehm]
Greg: We'd like to follow the ARIA workflow.
15:30:05 [oedipus]
s/follow the ARIA workflow/follow the ARIA workflow but have accessible drag and drop as a native aspect of HTML5
15:30:50 [kliehm]
John G.: There's a difference for an author between making an item focusable while a list of draggable objects would remove that burden from the author.
15:31:03 [janina]
q?
15:34:20 [adrianba]
q-
15:35:49 [oedipus]
EZ: list - as move through list, events fire
15:36:16 [oedipus]
RS: you want a list of droptargets - user navigate through list to do drop -- will you be able to provide sufficient contextual info for user?
15:36:30 [kliehm]
Everett: expect user agent to generate a list of draggable objects and drop targets. An author would still need to identify the elements.
15:37:41 [richardschwerdtfe]
q?
15:37:41 [oedipus]
ack oe
15:37:42 [Zakim]
oedipus, you wanted to ask if we need to restore a copy and paste API into HTML5?
15:38:04 [kliehm]
Everett: for complex lists a title or an aria-label could provide additional information, but for screenreader users it's not an easy task. We'll need to do our best.
15:38:54 [oedipus]
right, it is a circumscribed copy/cut and paste
15:39:10 [kliehm]
Greg: Is the equivalent of drag and drop comparable to copy and paste?
15:39:28 [oedipus]
ack rich
15:39:33 [janina]
q?
15:39:42 [kliehm]
Everett: It's different since drag & drop has a list of drop targets.
15:39:51 [cyns]
cyns has joined #html-a11y
15:40:55 [kliehm]
Rich: Screenreaders have a lot of information of contextual information that would be lost if the UA just displays a simple menu list.
15:41:32 [janina]
q?
15:41:48 [adrianba]
q+
15:42:09 [kliehm]
Everett: A UA could provide more contextual content when the user requests it with keys.
15:42:30 [oedipus]
extended meta data queries need to be built into ATs, especially screen readers
15:43:33 [jongunderson]
q+
15:43:46 [oedipus]
keyboard events in DOM3: http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-DOM-Level-3-Events-20100907/#events-keyboardevents
15:44:04 [Gez]
q+
15:44:09 [kliehm]
Adrian: Came to pretty much the same conclusion as Everett. Don't see much work on the vendor site. Just need a list of enumerated items of drop targets. With event bubbling it's unclear where an object has been dropped, defining a drop target would help.
15:44:33 [kliehm]
Janina: What have we missed?
15:45:21 [adrianba]
s/object has been dropped/object could be dropped/
15:45:36 [janina]
q?
15:45:44 [kliehm]
Greg: Drag & drop could be seen as a limited copy & paste API where the available drop targets is limited.
15:45:59 [Gez]
q-
15:46:15 [janina]
ack a
15:47:21 [kliehm]
Rich: List of drop targets is important, but I'd take the other things into consideration as well. Like going to one drop target and easily moving to the next.
15:48:13 [oedipus]
under the section 5.3 "Drag and Drop" there used to appear section 5.3.5. "Copy and Paste" reproduced below: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/#copy-and
15:48:15 [janina]
q?
15:48:19 [janina]
ack j
15:48:21 [kliehm]
Jon Gunderson: What's keeping an author from defining the whole document as droppable?
15:48:54 [kliehm]
Everett: Can't keep an author from it, but it wouldn't be according to the spec.
15:49:13 [oedipus]
paste from selection (copy and paste portion of old draft's section on DnD: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/#paste0
15:49:26 [oedipus]
GJR will put all this info onlist in an email
15:49:47 [oedipus]
"Copy-and-paste is a form of drag-and-drop: the "copy" part is equivalent to dragging content to another application (the "clipboard"), and the "paste" part is equivalent to dragging content from another application. "
15:49:52 [kliehm]
Jon: Event delegation is important for author for performance reasons.
15:52:36 [Zakim]
-kliehm
15:53:14 [oedipus]
amen to steve - a LOT of keyboard navigators don't use AT
15:53:46 [Zakim]
+kliehm
15:53:49 [oedipus]
JS: AT is a "last resort" there are a lot of people who need keyboard support and native support because don't rely on ATY
15:54:35 [kliehm]
Everett: Limiting the number of events being fired would increase performance more than setting a number of event listeners.
15:54:58 [oedipus]
s/don't rely on ATY/don't rely on AT/
15:55:01 [JF]
+1 with Steve. File the bugs, back-fill later
15:55:52 [JF]
+q
15:55:59 [oedipus]
dnd proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0410.html
15:56:18 [kliehm]
Everett: suggesting to file a bug saying the spec needs to be less device specific or provide additional examples.
15:56:24 [oedipus]
next steps on dnd from kliehm: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0440.html
15:56:31 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
15:57:07 [richardschwerdtfe]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html
15:57:18 [oedipus]
zakim, [Microsoft.a] is Paul_Cotton
15:57:18 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft.a]'
15:57:23 [oedipus]
zakim, [Microsoft.a] was Paul_Cotton
15:57:23 [Zakim]
I don't understand '[Microsoft.a] was Paul_Cotton', oedipus
15:57:26 [kliehm]
Rich: The terminology could be improved because "drag" is not device independent, could be more agnostic.
15:57:40 [oedipus]
present- Microsoft.a
15:57:49 [kliehm]
s/Rich: The terminology/Everett: The terminology/
15:58:13 [oedipus]
JF, no the copy and paste API that used to be in HTML5 but was removed
15:58:22 [kliehm]
John F.: Let's get the bugs in even if they are not fully fleshed out
15:58:22 [oedipus]
present+ Paul_Cotton
15:58:32 [kliehm]
Janina: Who's filing the bugs?
15:59:12 [kliehm]
Gez?
16:00:16 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:00:18 [adrianba]
adrianba has left #html-a11y
16:00:44 [kliehm]
Janina: Concern from facilitators that we're losing minutes. Please keep quality up so that we're able to track progress.
16:01:01 [kliehm]
s/Gez?/Gez will file the bugs./
16:01:02 [oedipus]
copy and paste section of HTML5's drag and drop no longer in spec http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0525.html
16:01:29 [JF]
Greg, your email came through to the list
16:01:29 [kliehm]
Janina: Thanks everyone.
16:01:55 [Zakim]
-Everett_Zufelt
16:01:57 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
16:01:58 [Zakim]
-Gez
16:01:58 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
16:01:59 [Zakim]
-Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:01:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:02:00 [Zakim]
-jongund
16:02:00 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
16:02:04 [Gez]
Gez has left #html-a11y
16:02:05 [Zakim]
-Steve_Faulkner
16:02:07 [Zakim]
-Janina
16:02:09 [Zakim]
-Eric_Carlson
16:02:10 [janina]
janina has left #html-a11y
16:02:13 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
16:03:04 [MichaelC]
zakim, list participants
16:03:06 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Michael_Cooper, Everett_Zufelt, kliehm, Gez, jongund, adrianba,
16:03:11 [Zakim]
... Mike, Cynthia_Shelly, [Microsoft], franko, Steve_Faulkner
16:03:46 [kliehm]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:04:19 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Michael_Cooper, Everett_Zufelt, kliehm, Gez, jongund,
16:04:19 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:04:23 [Zakim]
... adrianba, Mike, Cynthia_Shelly, [Microsoft], franko, Steve_Faulkner
16:04:37 [kliehm]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:04:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:06:29 [oedipus]
present+ Mike_Smith, Cynthia_Shelly, Adrian
16:07:24 [oedipus]
present+ Frank_Oliver
16:07:56 [kliehm]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:08:37 [kliehm]
rssagent, please part
16:08:51 [kliehm]
rrsagent, please part
16:08:51 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items