15:02:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swxg
15:02:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/22-swxg-irc
15:02:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:02:05 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #swxg
15:02:07 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7994
15:02:07 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
15:02:08 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
15:02:08 <trackbot> Date: 22 September 2010
15:02:26 <Zakim> INC_SWXG()11:00AM has now started
15:02:33 <Zakim> + +1.781.416.aaaa
15:02:48 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:02:54 <Zakim> - +1.781.416.aaaa
15:02:56 <Zakim> + +1.781.416.aaaa
15:03:03 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:03:03 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:03:05 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:03:05 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:03:08 <hhalpin> Zakim, what's the code?
15:03:08 <Zakim> the conference code is 7994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), hhalpin
15:03:28 <Zakim> +mischat
15:03:33 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:03:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.781.416.aaaa, MacTed (muted), mischat
15:03:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, mischat, hhalpin, paul, FabGandon, melvster, oshani, MacTed, tinkster, tlr, AlexPassant, karl, trackbot
15:03:40 <Zakim> +??P26
15:03:46 <hhalpin> Zakim, ??P26
15:03:46 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P26', hhalpin
15:03:53 <hhalpin> Zakim, ??P26 is hhalpin
15:03:53 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
15:03:57 <mischat> Zakim, mischat is Garlik
15:03:57 <Zakim> +Garlik; got it
15:04:03 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe?
15:04:03 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, hhalpin.
15:04:07 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
15:04:11 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Garlik
15:04:28 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe?
15:04:28 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, hhalpin.
15:04:34 <MacTed> I'm just bad at scribing.  it's a terrible failing, but the pain of what I produce is often worse than nothing.
15:04:35 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.781.416.aaaa, MacTed (muted), Garlik, hhalpin
15:04:36 <mischat> zakim, Garlik is temporarily me
15:04:36 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:05:03 <Zakim> +??P1
15:05:12 <MacTed> I can but try
15:05:23 <melvster> zakim, ??P1 is me
15:05:23 <Zakim> +melvster; got it
15:05:23 <mischat> Zakim, mute me
15:05:24 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:05:30 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:05:30 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:05:51 <melvster> paul's slides: http://www.slideshare.net/ptrevithick/higgins-active-clients-and-personal-data-stores-v2
15:05:54 <hhalpin> PROPOSAL: accept minutes http://www.w3.org/2010/09/15-swxg-minutes.html
15:05:55 <melvster> +1
15:06:08 <hhalpin> ACCEPT: minutes as true record  http://www.w3.org/2010/09/15-swxg-minutes.html
15:07:11 <hhalpin> Meeting: Next meeting Mike Hanson + Chris Messina on browser as social agent, final meeting
15:07:12 <MacTed> hhalpin: wants to broadly review final report...
15:07:16 <hhalpin> topic: final report
15:07:25 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport
15:07:35 <MacTed> ... rough draft is in usual place; HTML export not done yet
15:07:40 <MacTed> ... trying to shorten and lengthen  :-)
15:08:04 <MacTed> ... adding XRD, pasteform, OAuth, OpenID, other coverage
15:08:10 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport#XAuth
15:08:25 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport#XRD
15:08:41 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport#OExchange
15:08:54 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport#Microformats
15:09:08 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport#Device_APIs_and_Policy_Working_Group
15:09:22 <MacTed> ... suggests XAuth, OExchange, Microformats, P3P / privacy rulesets
15:09:35 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport#Personal_Dataspaces
15:09:52 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport#Conclusions:_A_Strategy_for_the_Social_Web
15:10:06 <MacTed> ... conclusions wants heavy attention
15:10:11 <paul> Personal Data Spaces aka Personal Data Stores aka Personal Data Lockers aka Personal Data Banks
15:10:27 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport#Co-ordinate_the_Core_of_Profile_Data
15:10:44 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport#Open-ended_Descriptions_and_Rights_for_Social_Media
15:11:01 <MacTed> ... tried to filter concerns around RDFa into final report "hard to find URIs for things"
15:11:09 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #swxg
15:11:12 <MacTed> (that's an RDFa concern?)
15:11:25 <Zakim> + +1.781.392.aabb
15:11:28 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport#Open_The_World_Wide_Web_Consortium
15:12:10 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aacc - is perhaps Alan
15:12:32 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2010/07/community
15:13:04 <MacTed> ... pay much attention to proposal for W3C to rejigger incubator group proces...
15:13:38 <mischat> q+
15:13:38 <MacTed> ... has shortened RDF stuff
15:13:52 <MacTed> ... informal rule "each topic we've discussed should get 2 paragraphs"
15:14:34 <mischat> q+
15:14:35 <hhalpin> So you would want more RDF in the report
15:14:39 <hhalpin> ack mischat
15:15:19 <MacTed> mischat: massive RDF advocate, still felt that final report was RDF heavy, concerned that it *may* scare people away
15:15:52 <MacTed> ... identity section was pretty much all about RDF; profile data and SIOC stuff was all RDF...
15:16:02 <MacTed> ... should be talking about RDF as the future, but whole document shouldn't be about it
15:16:05 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:16:05 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:16:18 <melvster> im an rdf fan 
15:16:22 <MacTed> MacTed: arbitrary limits like that bother me
15:17:14 <MacTed> hhalpin: working toward concision, would like to receive cut-and-paste replacement suggestions
15:17:43 <MacTed> ... other controversial decision: choice between Renato's and Henry's graphics
15:18:06 <MacTed> ... Renato's are prettier and more contemporary in appearance; Henry's appear to be more technically correct/complete
15:18:32 <MacTed> ... will try to wrap things up next 2 days
15:18:41 <MacTed> ... group shuts down in a week, so responses are important now
15:18:49 <mischat> hhalpin: we do have a bit on higgins :)
15:18:52 <melvster> yes
15:18:54 <hhalpin> topic: paul on infocards and higgins
15:18:55 <pchampin> yes
15:18:59 <hhalpin> yes
15:19:20 <MacTed> paul: updated deck --- http://www.slideshare.net/ptrevithick/higgins-active-clients-and-personal-data-stores-v2
15:20:09 <MacTed> ... all data about a person comes from own head -- self-assertions aren't trustworthy
15:20:34 <MacTed> ... people don't exist on the internet -- it's all about browsers and documents
15:20:42 <MacTed> ... what does this mean for people?
15:21:17 <MacTed> ... pour their information out, and give up all rights to data (which better not be copyrighted) on sites
15:21:36 <MacTed> ... (of course, exaggerating but with purpose)
15:21:53 <hhalpin> Moving verified attributes from A to B
15:22:01 <MacTed> ... can't prove age online, unlike in liquor store
15:22:20 <MacTed> ... (slide 7) missing piece!
15:22:58 <MacTed> ... identifiers are just more attributes
15:23:02 <MacTed> ... important thing is what are you trying to say
15:23:47 <MacTed> ... (slide 8) "cards" hold purpose/site-targeted sets of attributes
15:24:14 <MacTed> ... managed in (various terms) wallet/selector/etc.
15:25:41 <MacTed> ... (slide 10) putting Higgins in perspective against other similar/parallel projects (e.g., Microsoft)
15:26:18 <MacTed> ... (slide 11) user control is key.  "digital identity" is very broad -- anything that might be in a FOAF file
15:26:22 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:26:22 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:26:46 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:26:46 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:27:22 <MacTed> ... (slide 12) rough timeline shows convergence and focus
15:27:39 <MacTed> ... (slide 13) "why cards are good"
15:28:37 <MacTed> ... most of shown cards reflect real projects (not AmEx)
15:29:20 <MacTed> ... (slide 14) personal = self-assertions.  managed = verified, or assertions made by others
15:29:58 <MacTed> ... (slide 13) straw-man UI sample
15:30:15 <MacTed> s/13/15/
15:30:54 <MacTed> ... no per-relying-party login, akin to OpenID, WebID, etc.
15:31:35 <MacTed> ... (slide 16) may send subsets of attributes even from a single card
15:31:50 <MacTed> ... (slide 17) mix-and-match interoperability
15:31:52 <hhalpin> *lots* of people
15:32:32 <MacTed> ... (slide 20-22) info & activity flow
15:33:35 <MacTed> ... (slide 23) good news -- lots of involvement and interest
15:34:28 <MacTed> ... work-in-progress -- still looking for lighthouse big (or medium) size relying site(s)
15:35:39 <MacTed> ... (slide 24) refactoring project and organization based on experience since inception
15:36:05 <MacTed> ... (slide 26) not yet released, but in the works.... Higgins 2.0
15:36:36 <MacTed> ... users don't like seeing everything that's happening, they'll just click to close the windows
15:37:12 <MacTed> ... bits-and-bytes are good, but legal/trust frameworks are also necessary
15:39:14 <MacTed> ... working to further reduce required user interaction
15:39:32 <hhalpin> overloading is a bit confusing
15:39:39 <hhalpin> too many identity standards to even track!
15:39:53 <MacTed> ... working on "better with" more than "better than"
15:41:01 <MacTed> ... end-user wants solutions that work in the airport kiosk when you don't have an active client, but will accept that it works better when *do* have active client
15:41:49 <MacTed> ... adding more card types 
15:43:02 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:43:13 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MacTed (42%), hhalpin (5%)
15:43:21 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:43:21 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:44:31 <MacTed> ... (slide 30) Personal Data Store is not monolithic silo, but integrates all person's data from all their sites...
15:45:21 <MacTed> ... (slide 31) Higgins 2.0 jumps into ontology/vocab use, embracing and extending with card metaphor
15:45:50 <MacTed> ... card (or set of cards) for Amazon, or for work-related, or for address info, etc.  forming persona
15:46:20 <MacTed> ... URL for Persona Data Model (can't be cut-and-paste, won't transcribe now)
15:48:21 <MacTed> ... (slide 34) potentially adding procedure to data
15:49:18 <MacTed> ... (slide 36) dashboard here might be better called wallet...
15:49:21 <hhalpin> Fabien Gandon also uses the term "wallet" in his research
15:50:10 <MacTed> ... rest of deck is technical detail appendices
15:50:32 <MacTed> hhalpin: question time....
15:50:57 <MacTed> ... wants a couple paragraphs for final report
15:51:26 <MacTed> ... looking for "meta-identity" view
15:51:43 <MacTed> ... building OpenID atop OAuth involves server-side redirect
15:51:52 <MacTed> ... has potential for phishing attacks
15:52:02 <MacTed> ... Infocard seems to handle that?
15:52:18 <mischat> Aza
15:52:23 <MacTed> paul: yes.  phishing is mitigated by some smartening of the browser
15:52:43 <MacTed> hhalpin: Infocard seems a near relative to Henry Story's WebID
15:52:53 <melvster> WebID is a 'hub of identities'
15:52:56 <MacTed> paul: there seems to be some correlation.
15:53:15 <MacTed> ... world is contextual.  we should be able to have identifiers with minimized scope.
15:53:17 <hhalpin> so the big difference "multiple" personae
15:53:18 <melvster> many WebID's are linked via owl:sameAs
15:53:27 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:53:27 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:53:51 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:53:51 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:54:05 <MacTed> ... presumption is that context is everything
15:54:34 <MacTed> ... contrasted with OpenID where personae *can* be done but are not treated as desirable
15:55:07 <MacTed> hhalpin: 1. great if browsers could implement this.  seems like Infocard has got pretty good buy-in.
15:55:22 <MacTed> paul: doesn't belong in the browser.  this belongs above the OS, and below the browser, but tightly integrated throughout
15:55:43 <MacTed> ... working on making it seem like a browser extension, even though it's "really" not
15:56:02 <MacTed> ... there are things other than browsers, still
15:56:17 <hhalpin> below app, in-between OS
15:56:20 <hhalpin> and browser
15:56:30 <MacTed> ... belongs below "app" as well as browser, app is whatever acts on the network
15:56:49 <MacTed> hhalpin: what are people going to be interested in after HTML5?
15:57:08 <MacTed> paul: Mozilla's view is Mozilla-centric, which is OK, but this isn't necessarily good for the end-user
15:57:52 <MacTed> ... multi-browser, multi-app world means we need standards to help the user who wants their "stuff" synched across browsers/apps
15:58:17 <MacTed> hhalpin: there seems to be some client-side ID space starting to take shape that could work in harmony with server-side ID space
15:58:30 <MacTed> ... there's no making browser vendors do anything, but they can be encouraged
15:58:51 <MacTed> ... EU is in middle of formulating plans on privacy and identity requirements
15:59:17 <MacTed> paul: Europe and Canada will be very interested in active clients, possibly moreso than Americans
16:00:08 <MacTed> ... Infocard is 3 things -- metaphor, architecture, & bits-and-bytes
16:01:00 <MacTed> hhalpin: W3C can do various things.... and ID space may be ripe for W3C participation
16:01:20 <MacTed> (I have to go soon)
16:02:05 <hhalpin> so two workshops
16:02:31 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:02:31 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:02:50 <hhalpin> active client...
16:03:29 <pchampin> any SWXG event planned at TPAC?
16:04:04 <pchampin> I'll be there. can't wait :)
16:04:07 <paul> date?
16:04:40 <melvster> thanks!
16:04:41 <hhalpin> I'll send e-mail
16:04:47 <Zakim> - +1.781.392.aabb
16:05:08 <Zakim> -hhalpin
16:05:08 <pchampin> bye
16:05:09 <Zakim> -melvster
16:05:09 <Zakim> -mischat
16:05:10 <Zakim> - +1.781.416.aaaa
16:05:13 <hhalpin> thanks MacTed!
16:05:15 <MacTed> I know there are things to do generate minutes....
16:05:20 <MacTed> but not what they are
16:05:21 <hhalpin> Wish we had bblish on the phone
16:05:24 <hhalpin> trackbot, generate minutes
16:05:24 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:05:24 <trackbot> Sorry, hhalpin, I don't understand 'trackbot, generate minutes'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
16:05:31 <hhalpin> don't worry MacTed, your job is over!
16:05:32 <MacTed> RRSAgent, generate minutes
16:05:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/22-swxg-minutes.html MacTed
16:05:39 <MacTed> RRSAgent, make minutes public
16:05:39 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', MacTed.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:05:42 <hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting
16:05:42 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:05:42 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.781.416.aaaa, MacTed, hhalpin, mischat, melvster, +1.781.392.aabb, +1.760.705.aacc, pchampin
16:05:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:05:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/22-swxg-minutes.html trackbot
16:05:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:05:44 <RRSAgent> I see no action items