19:57:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ssn
19:57:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/22-ssn-irc
19:57:37 <laurent_lefort_cs> rrsagent, bookmark
19:57:37 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/09/22-ssn-irc#T19-57-37
19:57:40 <Andriy> Andriy has joined #ssn
19:57:47 <laurent_lefort_cs> zakim, this will be inc_ssn
19:57:47 <Zakim> ok, laurent_lefort_cs, I see INC_SSN()4:00PM already started
19:57:55 <laurent_lefort_cs> Meeting:  SSN XG
19:58:01 <Zakim> +??P7
19:58:03 <laurent_lefort_cs> Chair: Laurent
19:58:21 <Payam> zakim, ??P7 is me
19:58:21 <Zakim> +Payam; got it
19:58:28 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
19:58:43 <laurent_lefort_cs> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-ssn/2010Sep/0014.html
19:58:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:59:04 <Zakim> +??P8
19:59:06 <laurent_lefort_cs> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2010/09/21-ssn-minutes.html
19:59:31 <Zakim> +??P9
19:59:41 <Andriy> zakim, IPcaller is me
19:59:41 <Zakim> +Andriy; got it
19:59:59 <michael> zakim, ??P9 is me
19:59:59 <Zakim> +michael; got it
20:00:34 <laurent_lefort_cs> Regrets: Oscar, Raul, Danh, Kevin, Kerry
20:00:44 <Zakim> +??P10
20:01:02 <laurent_lefort_cs> zakim, ??P10 is me
20:01:02 <Zakim> +laurent_lefort_cs; got it
20:01:35 <laurent_lefort_cs> zakim, who is here?
20:01:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Payam, Andriy, ??P8, michael, laurent_lefort_cs
20:01:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see Andriy, RRSAgent, Zakim, myriam, michael, laurent_lefort_cs, Payam, AlexPassant, trackbot
20:02:00 <myriam> zakim, ??P8 is me
20:02:00 <Zakim> +myriam; got it
20:02:59 <krzysztof_j> krzysztof_j has joined #ssn
20:03:25 <laurent_lefort_cs> zakim, who is here?
20:03:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Payam, Andriy, myriam, michael, laurent_lefort_cs
20:03:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see krzysztof_j, Andriy, RRSAgent, Zakim, myriam, michael, laurent_lefort_cs, Payam, AlexPassant, trackbot
20:03:34 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:03:55 <krzysztof_j> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
20:03:55 <Zakim> +krzysztof_j; got it
20:04:17 <laurent_lefort_cs> zakim, who is here?
20:04:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Payam, Andriy, myriam, michael, laurent_lefort_cs, krzysztof_j
20:04:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see krzysztof_j, Andriy, RRSAgent, Zakim, myriam, michael, laurent_lefort_cs, Payam, AlexPassant, trackbot
20:06:15 <krzysztof_j> i can do it
20:06:52 <laurent_lefort_cs> Scribenick: kryzystof_j
20:08:07 <laurent_lefort_cs> Topic: Ontology structure (Raul's slides)
20:08:29 <krzysztof_j> laurent_lefort_cs: had anybody a look at Raul's slides
20:08:59 <michael> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/Report_Ontology_Structure
20:09:46 <krzysztof_j> not so far, will look at them asap
20:10:21 <myriam> could you upload the slides as pdf or ppt instead of pptx?
20:10:48 <laurent_lefort_cs> PPt is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-ssn/2010Sep/0011.html
20:11:05 <Payam> +q
20:11:14 <laurent_lefort_cs> Ack Payam
20:12:14 <Zakim> + +1.937.775.aaaa
20:12:28 <Payam> colour coding is a very good idea
20:13:19 <krzysztof_j> +q
20:14:29 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack kryzystof_j
20:14:58 <cory> cory has joined #ssn
20:15:11 <krzysztof_j> michael: slide 3 and 4 look okay maybe a bit oo much detail
20:15:27 <krzysztof_j> krzysztof_j: yes, especially the Situations part
20:15:39 <michael> +q
20:15:41 <krzysztof_j> +q
20:15:53 <cory> sorry ... could you repost the link to presentation?
20:16:06 <krzysztof_j> cory: it is in the last mail from Raul
20:16:18 <krzysztof_j> the file is calles SSN-XG ontology v4.pptx
20:16:56 <michael> +q
20:17:45 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack kryzystof_j
20:18:14 <krzysztof_j> laurent_lefort_cs: yes maybe to complex and we can leave out some details
20:18:24 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack michael
20:18:43 <Zakim> -krzysztof_j
20:19:12 <janowicz> janowicz has joined #ssn
20:19:23 <janowicz> michael: our observation
20:19:54 <Zakim> +??P0
20:20:03 <janowicz> zakim, ??P0 is me
20:20:03 <Zakim> +janowicz; got it
20:20:42 <krzysztof_j> imho it is too complex
20:21:17 <michael> shouldn't get caught trying to show everything on each diagram.  The diagrams get too complex if we do that.  Better if they are abstractions and then the figures in particular sections show all the details.
20:22:13 <michael> Saying that, I think it's fine to have a diagram that tried to show everything, but it's probably more useful as an 'appendix' rather than as the first thing a reader sees.
20:22:33 <michael> +q
20:22:35 <krzysztof_j> Payam: helps to clarify the alignment
20:22:50 <Payam> +q
20:22:52 <krzysztof_j> Payam: we need a different graphical notation for the alignment, e.g., by color
20:23:10 <krzysztof_j> +q
20:23:12 <michael> +q
20:23:36 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack kryzystof_j
20:24:56 <krzysztof_j> I would use different color or namespace for the classes but not introduce new signatures for realtions such as subclassing
20:24:58 <Payam> Maybe clarifying that the alignment means "sameAs" or something similar
20:25:07 <myriam> or different shapes
20:26:06 <Payam> +q
20:26:56 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack kryzystof_j
20:26:56 <Payam> -q
20:27:12 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack kryzystof_j
20:27:31 <krzysztof_j> -q
20:28:06 <laurent_lefort_cs> Laurent: Figure 4 - we can add dul: prefix to make it more apparent that the classes are for DUL
20:28:10 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack michael
20:28:16 <krzysztof_j> krzysztof_j: splitting dul and ssn may be very difficult for the documentation. why not simply highlight some aspects instead of trying to have this huge overview
20:28:43 <krzysztof_j> laurent_lefort_cs: should fig 4 go into the dul module description
20:29:02 <myriam> +q
20:29:25 <krzysztof_j> michael: too complex as an intro to the ontology
20:30:03 <krzysztof_j> michael: start with simplified views and hide other details in the introduction
20:30:08 <Payam> agree with Michael
20:30:14 <krzysztof_j> ack 
20:30:38 <krzysztof_j> michael: we can go into more details if we have to in later parts of the report (e.g., about about alignment details
20:30:44 <krzysztof_j> ) but it is too much for the intro
20:31:09 <krzysztof_j> laurent_lefort_cs: is a figure/table about the modules missing?
20:31:31 <krzysztof_j> +q
20:31:43 <Payam> +q
20:31:50 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack myriam
20:32:57 <krzysztof_j> myriam: dolce can really help us to integrate other ontologies
20:33:50 <krzysztof_j> myriam: dolce parts are also helpful in the diagramm to get the idea and the udnerlying assumptions
20:34:15 <krzysztof_j> http://www.personal.psu.edu/kuj13/SSO 2010.pdf
20:34:49 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack krzysztof_j
20:35:48 <Payam> yes
20:35:51 <cory> yes
20:36:09 <krzysztof_j> sorry, there is a space between SSO and 2010 this is part of the url
20:36:21 <krzysztof_j> yes
20:36:44 <krzysztof_j> (and it also contains the last version of the ontology and the dolce alignment)
20:38:22 <laurent_lefort_cs> laurent_lefort_cs has joined #ssn
20:38:30 <krzysztof_j> (the last version of the alignment and sensor design pattern is available at http://www.personal.psu.edu/kuj13/OuM/OuM.owl)
20:39:06 <krzysztof_j> laurent_lefort_cs: michael+krzysztof what is your plan for the alignment? a less complex version of the paper
20:39:15 <michael> we are meeting after this ti discuss
20:39:38 <krzysztof_j> we will know in two days whether the paper will be accepted or not but we can use it for the report anyway
20:39:47 <krzysztof_j> +q
20:39:53 <Payam> -q
20:40:33 <Zakim> -laurent_lefort_cs
20:40:50 <krzysztof_j> +q
20:41:10 <krzysztof_j> laurent?
20:41:35 <michael> no laurent?
20:41:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:41:38 <Zakim> -janowicz
20:42:04 <Zakim> +??P0
20:42:14 <krzysztof_j> zakim, ??P0 is me
20:42:14 <Zakim> +krzysztof_j; got it
20:42:23 <laurent_lefort_cs> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
20:42:23 <Zakim> +laurent_lefort_cs; got it
20:42:37 <Payam> ok
20:43:11 <krzysztof_j> +q
20:43:16 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack kryzystof_j
20:43:55 <laurent_lefort_cs> Topic: Module documentation
20:44:01 <krzysztof_j> laurent_lefort_cs: any other updates on the documentation and the modules
20:45:10 <krzysztof_j> Andriy: some rework needed e.g., the observations. can we reusue the example in the documentation page?
20:46:45 <krzysztof_j> +q
20:46:54 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack kryzystof_j
20:47:10 <krzysztof_j> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/SSN_Observation
20:47:39 <michael> +q
20:47:51 <krzysztof_j> -q
20:48:22 <krzysztof_j> kryzystof_j: mix between the procedure that defines the observation and the procedure that defines how the sensor is constructed
20:49:13 <krzysztof_j> (see e.g., page 8 of the SSO 2010 paper for details and examples)
20:50:21 <krzysztof_j> laurent, this was not a criticism but just a pointer that we all should have a look at the modules and documentation to make sure it is consistent
20:51:42 <krzysztof_j> with the ontology
20:52:21 <krzysztof_j> I agree, again it was not a criticism
20:53:00 <laurent_lefort_cs> End to End examples: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/Agriculture_Meteorology_Sensor_Network
20:54:07 <laurent_lefort_cs> Type definition http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/images/8/87/Aws.xml
20:54:26 <laurent_lefort_cs> Instances http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/images/c/cf/Ssn-phenonet.xml
20:55:23 <laurent_lefort_cs> Topic: QCRs
20:56:48 <krzysztof_j> laurent can you argue where you see the problem?
20:59:05 <michael> There are many things for which reasoners (with Abox) don't exactly locate the errors - it's a hard problem.  I don't think that we should restrict our modelling because of weaknesses in error reporting in tools.  If we did there are probably lots of things we would have to change.
20:59:40 <krzysztof_j> +q
21:00:26 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack michael
21:02:55 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack krysztof_j
21:03:10 <krzysztof_j> -q
21:03:13 <krzysztof_j> ack to michael
21:07:11 <krzysztof_j> cory: ack to krzysztof_j
21:08:17 <michael> +q
21:08:27 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack Michael
21:08:56 <krzysztof_j> laurent_lefort_cs: we just need to make sure that it is consistent (and not just a QCR somewhere while it is avoided in all other parts)
21:09:30 <michael> +q
21:09:39 <cory> +q
21:10:33 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack michael
21:11:47 <laurent_lefort_cs> Ack Cory
21:11:52 <krzysztof_j> (hmmm, laurent is right)
21:12:40 <krzysztof_j> cory: the problem is to make a uniform ontology (make sure that there is no part that is way more complex than other parts)
21:15:34 <laurent_lefort_cs> vote: go (let the ontology as it is - and document the restrictions) - postpone (delay the resolution for the after the XG) - no go (removing the restrictions)
21:15:42 <laurent_lefort_cs> no go
21:15:50 <michael> go
21:16:09 <laurent_lefort_cs> Raul email: postpone
21:16:10 <krzysztof_j> postpone or go (imo DUL also uses QCR)
21:16:17 <Andriy> postpone
21:16:28 <Payam> go
21:16:33 <cory> go
21:16:39 <myriam> maybe postpone
21:17:04 <krzysztof_j> ok then ig go gor GO
21:17:11 <krzysztof_j> i go for go
21:17:16 <krzysztof_j> :)
21:18:17 <krzysztof_j> +q
21:20:06 <michael> I'm happy to document
21:20:46 <krzysztof_j> -q\
21:21:04 <krzysztof_j> -q
21:21:14 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack krzystof_j
21:21:35 <krzysztof_j> vote: go
21:21:48 <krzysztof_j> laurent_lefort_cs: we need a documentation
21:22:53 <krzysztof_j> DUL uses closures and hence in most cases they do not require QCR
21:23:37 <krzysztof_j> laurent_lefort_cs: all please check whether we really need QCR
21:24:00 <krzysztof_j> laurent_lefort_cs: cory can you help with the pro/con QCR decision?
21:24:03 <krzysztof_j> cory: yes
21:24:14 <krzysztof_j> yes
21:24:43 <Zakim> -krzysztof_j
21:24:54 <janowicz> janowicz has joined #ssn
21:24:55 <laurent_lefort_cs> Topic: Follow up activities
21:25:30 <janowicz_> janowicz_ has joined #ssn
21:25:47 <myriam> +q
21:25:47 <janowicz_> back
21:26:13 <janowicz_> (i cannot join anymore the w3c system does not let me in)
21:27:32 <Payam> Myriam: follow up will focus on continuing the current work or will/can also focus on applications of ontology?
21:27:35 <cory> +q
21:29:10 <cory> http://richard.cyganiak.de/2007/10/lod/
21:29:42 <myriam> ok thank you ;)
21:29:52 <Zakim> - +1.937.775.aaaa
21:29:52 <krzysztof_j> (the w3c telco system does not let me join again - probably because of the time. just FYI: we had the linked spatiotemporal data workshop last week at GIScience 2010 and some people have been interested in doing a VoCamp at ISWC 2010 on linked sensor data, citizens as sensors, and an even smaller version of ontology pattern based on our work and dolce. anybody interested to join? let me know)
21:30:13 <cory> hello?
21:30:15 <michael> sure
21:30:28 <cory> sorry Laurent, phone died
21:30:54 <laurent_lefort_cs> Conference is finished Thanks everyone
21:31:00 <michael> bye
21:31:02 <Zakim> -Payam
21:31:06 <Zakim> -michael
21:31:08 <Payam> Bye!
21:31:13 <Zakim> -myriam
21:31:15 <cory> Laurent ... I'll send you something soon
21:31:23 <myriam> myriam has left #ssn
21:31:26 <Zakim> -Andriy
21:31:26 <cory> yes
21:31:32 <Zakim> -laurent_lefort_cs
21:31:34 <Zakim> INC_SSN()4:00PM has ended
21:31:36 <Zakim> Attendees were Payam, Andriy, michael, laurent_lefort_cs, myriam, krzysztof_j, +1.937.775.aaaa, janowicz
21:33:40 <krzysztof_j> krzysztof_j has joined #ssn
21:34:24 <krzysztof_j> michael?
21:51:50 <laurent_lefort_cs> rrsagent, please make record public
21:52:24 <laurent_lefort_cs> rrsagent, please draft minutes
21:52:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/22-ssn-minutes.html laurent_lefort_cs
21:52:42 <laurent_lefort_cs> rrsagent, please make record public
21:55:05 <laurent_lefort_cs> s/alignment details/alignment details)/
21:55:35 <laurent_lefort_cs> s/udnerlying/underlying/
21:56:00 <laurent_lefort_cs> s/after this ti discuss/after this to discuss/
21:56:22 <laurent_lefort_cs> s/reusue/reuse/
21:59:14 <laurent_lefort_cs> rrsagent, please draft minutes
21:59:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/22-ssn-minutes.html laurent_lefort_cs
22:00:16 <laurent_lefort_cs> rrsagent, please generate minutes
22:00:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/22-ssn-minutes.html laurent_lefort_cs
22:08:41 <laurent_lefort_cs> zakim, bye
22:08:41 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ssn
22:08:51 <laurent_lefort_cs> rrsagent, bye
22:08:51 <RRSAgent> I see no action items