IRC log of rif on 2010-09-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:21 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:57:21 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/21-rif-irc
14:57:29 [sandro]
zakim, this will be rif
14:57:29 [Zakim]
ok, sandro; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:58:41 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
15:00:39 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:43 [Zakim]
+LeoraMorgenstern
15:01:40 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:01:47 [leora]
leora has joined #rif
15:02:01 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:02:39 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has joined #rif
15:02:43 [PaschkeAdrian]
PaschkeAdrian has joined #rif
15:02:52 [Zakim]
+Sandro
15:03:17 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:03:20 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:03:20 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:03:22 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:03:24 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.342.aaaa
15:03:38 [Doug]
Doug has joined #rif
15:03:48 [leora]
Adrian, I just made a bunch of changes to the UCR document.
15:03:51 [ChrisW]
zakim, this is rif
15:03:51 [Zakim]
ChrisW, this was already SW_RIF()11:00AM
15:03:52 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; that matches SW_RIF()11:00AM
15:04:48 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the call?
15:04:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see LeoraMorgenstern, Harold, Sandro, [IBM], DaveReynolds, +1.512.342.aaaa
15:04:56 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:04:56 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:05:21 [ChrisW]
zakim, aaaa is Doug
15:05:21 [Zakim]
+Doug; got it
15:05:24 [leora]
Chris, I did the changes you requested to UCR, including softening the statements that something CANNOT be represented in BLD. (See the intro.)
15:05:41 [Zakim]
+??P37
15:05:59 [ChrisW]
zakim, ??P37 is PaschkeAdrian
15:05:59 [Zakim]
+PaschkeAdrian; got it
15:06:06 [ChrisW]
Scribe: PaschkeAdrian
15:06:12 [ChrisW]
scribenick: PaschkeAdrian
15:06:18 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: Admin
15:06:21 [Zakim]
+Gary_Hallmark
15:06:31 [ChrisW]
Last meeting minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Sep/att-0020/2010-09-14-rif-minutes.html
15:06:46 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: accept last week's minutes
15:06:53 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes
15:07:07 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: Liason
15:08:07 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: Actions
15:08:54 [ChrisW]
close action-1053
15:08:54 [trackbot]
ACTION-1053 Review UCR closed
15:09:37 [PaschkeAdrian]
close action-1051
15:09:37 [trackbot]
ACTION-1051 Annotate use cases wrt implmentability w existing dialects closed
15:11:22 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
15:12:56 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: RIF Primer
15:13:09 [Zakim]
+ +33.9.53.56.aabb
15:13:28 [csma]
zakim, aabb is me
15:13:28 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:13:37 [PaschkeAdrian]
Leora: need to add a summary of Christian's XML document
15:13:50 [PaschkeAdrian]
Leora: would prefer to leave it out since it is not finished yet
15:14:17 [Harold]
Note that RIF+XML-Data already is in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Overview#A_General_Survey_of_the_RIF_Documents
15:14:42 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: motivation is report on the combination of RIF and XML data since the other combinations are in the primer
15:15:22 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: want to show that you can use RIF also with other formats not just Semantic Web data / formats
15:15:57 [PaschkeAdrian]
Harold: OWL2RL is not in the primer as well
15:16:22 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: thought we can write different primers with different focus
15:16:32 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: but do not have the bandwith
15:16:50 [PaschkeAdrian]
Doug: would be good to have a list of what is missing
15:17:03 [Harold]
Note http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Primer#What_this_document_doesn.27t_cover
15:17:21 [PaschkeAdrian]
Doug: make it explicit what this document does not cover
15:17:37 [PaschkeAdrian]
Leora: there is already a section about this
15:18:46 [PaschkeAdrian]
Sandro: primer mostly about Core, i.e. RIF Core Primer
15:19:30 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: yes we can make it more specific
15:19:40 [PaschkeAdrian]
Harold: 5.1 mentions equality
15:19:54 [PaschkeAdrian]
Sandro: yes, is the only section about BLD
15:21:10 [PaschkeAdrian]
Sandro: prefer to have it as a RIF Core primer
15:21:34 [PaschkeAdrian]
Harold: built-ins are also in PRD
15:22:40 [Harold]
We have "RIF Datatypes and Built-Ins 1.0"
15:23:50 [PaschkeAdrian]
Leora: problem of time to address all dialects in the Primer, e..g would be good to address PRD as well, but no time for it
15:24:02 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: what about RIF Primer for Logic
15:24:20 [PaschkeAdrian]
Leora: to generic title
15:24:44 [sandro]
q?
15:25:23 [DaveReynolds]
Suspect my mic isn't working. The document primarily mentions BLD not Core. The examles and features might be mostly the Core subset but the prose keeps referring to BLD>
15:25:49 [ChrisW]
I suggest "RIF Logic Primer"
15:25:57 [PaschkeAdrian]
Sandro: if we call it RIF Core primer we should take out section 5.1
15:26:05 [PaschkeAdrian]
Leora: we need 5.1
15:26:21 [PaschkeAdrian]
Sandro: get someone else to contribute PRD to Primer
15:26:38 [PaschkeAdrian]
Garry: can contribute something
15:26:45 [ChrisW]
action: Gary to try and add a PRD section to primer
15:26:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1054 - Try and add a PRD section to primer [on Gary Hallmark - due 2010-09-28].
15:27:03 [sandro]
ACTION: Gary to contribute a PRD section like the BLD section (5.1) to the Primer
15:27:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1055 - Contribute a PRD section like the BLD section (5.1) to the Primer [on Gary Hallmark - due 2010-09-28].
15:27:46 [ChrisW]
close action-1054
15:27:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-1054 Try and add a PRD section to primer closed
15:28:01 [Zakim]
-csma
15:28:42 [PaschkeAdrian]
Sandro: will correct some additional review comments in the primer
15:29:36 [Zakim]
+csma
15:29:57 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: xml data
15:30:51 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: review comments from Gary ...
15:31:50 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: abbreviated presentation synatx, although not normative, is used, since it is more compact
15:32:34 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: need to change the EBNF
15:33:49 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: implementation dependent - undefined; will change this
15:34:05 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: singelton list - in Schema you know if it is a list or not;
15:34:28 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: without schema, i.e. just data, hard to know if it is a list or singel data
15:34:45 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: depends on the application in casw without schema
15:35:06 [PaschkeAdrian]
Gary: zero linked lists should be mentioned
15:37:27 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: regarding comment on "modify XMl document"
15:38:17 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: benefit of abstract model is, that it does not specify the semantics for adding data to the source XML document
15:38:39 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: it is up to your application if it reserializes inferred data
15:43:22 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: next point - consumer side input; should that apply to OWL-RDF data
15:47:17 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: question is, can we make a technical note of this spec. although it is only an initial spec, e.g. withouth beeing detailed
15:47:27 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: only 1 1/2 week left
15:48:10 [PaschkeAdrian]
Gary: would be good if more people read it; short time frame is a concern; so it will not be complete and consistent
15:48:31 [PaschkeAdrian]
Gary: would be good to have it as placeholder; do not know about the procedure ehre
15:49:03 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: release it as working draft next week; last working group meeting next week
15:49:10 [PaschkeAdrian]
Sandro: can publish as a note
15:49:22 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: sound more like a draft than a note
15:49:40 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: can we leave editors notes in a note?
15:50:07 [PaschkeAdrian]
Sandro: we can do what we want; either note or working draft
15:50:10 [StellaMitchell]
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15:51:55 [Zakim]
+??P10
15:52:11 [StellaMitchell]
zakom, ??p10 is me
15:52:17 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: think working draft is the right state to leave it when the working group ends, to point out that it is not finished
15:52:25 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: agree, prefer WD as well
15:52:33 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, ??p10 is me
15:52:33 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:52:36 [sandro]
cmsa: agreed -- XML-Data will be a WD in the next (last) version.
15:52:53 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: will vote on publication next Tuesday
15:53:03 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: what can be done by then
15:53:15 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: will work on Garys comments
15:53:28 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: asked Jos and Michael
15:53:57 [PaschkeAdrian]
cmsa: Jos reviewed an older version; Michael will be travelling
15:54:27 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: maybe Jos can do, but good to have anotehr reviewer
15:55:05 [leora]
leora has joined #rif
15:55:56 [ChrisW]
zakim, pick a victim
15:55:56 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose PaschkeAdrian
15:56:52 [ChrisW]
action: Adrian to review XML data
15:56:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1056 - Review XML data [on Adrian Paschke - due 2010-09-28].
15:57:17 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: UCR
15:58:40 [PaschkeAdrian]
Stella: proposed to remove section http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Structure_of_RIF
15:59:14 [PaschkeAdrian]
Leora: add a link to the RIF overview document
15:59:28 [PaschkeAdrian]
Stella: add RIf PRD in the bullet list
15:59:49 [PaschkeAdrian]
Harold: in the bullet list which are relevant to the use cases
16:00:12 [PaschkeAdrian]
Harold: in the bullet list only those dialects that are relevant to the use cases
16:01:36 [PaschkeAdrian]
Leora: Stella to review the changes by Leora
16:01:38 [csma]
Typo: second bullet in section 3: use present, not past tense
16:02:20 [PaschkeAdrian]
Stella: distinction between general and basic requirements http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Requirements
16:02:40 [PaschkeAdrian]
Leora: had some historic reasons;
16:03:46 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: basic requirements where from an earlier version of UCR where we had critical success factors, phase I and phase II requirement etc.
16:03:53 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: later we simplified it
16:04:07 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: get rid of the distinction
16:04:30 [PaschkeAdrian]
Adrian: will list them as requirements; will change it
16:05:18 [PaschkeAdrian]
Adrian: changes from Leora are open; from this morning
16:05:26 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: looks ready for publication
16:05:33 [sandro]
plan is to publish UCR as Note.
16:05:33 [PaschkeAdrian]
Sandro: publish as note
16:05:34 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:05:34 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:05:54 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: will be voted next week
16:06:16 [PaschkeAdrian]
Leora: want to add a reference on deontic logic; which is mentioned in one of the comments
16:06:27 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: Test Cases
16:06:51 [PaschkeAdrian]
Stella: approved all test cases;
16:07:05 [PaschkeAdrian]
Stella: Sandro wanted to add a new one about RIF XMl data
16:07:40 [PaschkeAdrian]
Stella: section on test results 6.2
16:07:44 [csma]
q+
16:07:56 [PaschkeAdrian]
Stella: test results page might be removed?
16:08:47 [PaschkeAdrian]
Stella: result page is not complete;
16:09:19 [PaschkeAdrian]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/test/results/report
16:10:32 [csma]
There are 4 test cases in the "proposed" section, and 5 in the "in development" section...
16:10:39 [csma]
What do we do with them?
16:10:43 [csma]
q-
16:11:19 [PaschkeAdrian]
Leora: should be linked from some document, so that we do not lose it
16:11:33 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: could be used in a community page
16:11:50 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:11:50 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:12:39 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: csma what about the 4 open test cases?
16:13:01 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: if I have time I will work on them; I have the XML, but need to update the PS
16:13:25 [PaschkeAdrian]
Sandro: can use tool for translation from XML to PS
16:13:36 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: does it support PRD
16:13:55 [PaschkeAdrian]
Sandro: probably yes; do not know if it is working
16:14:03 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: will send you the XML
16:15:51 [PaschkeAdrian]
Stella: test cases also need to be structure as entailment test
16:16:01 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: will look at it
16:17:35 [Leora_]
Leora_ has joined #rif
16:17:51 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: other test cases (in development)
16:18:42 [PaschkeAdrian]
Stella: three UCR use cases
16:19:59 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: equality test cases
16:20:18 [PaschkeAdrian]
Adrian: was the original use case and later refined to different factorial use cases
16:21:03 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: do we want nothing left "in development"?
16:25:10 [PaschkeAdrian]
ChrisW: no oppinion about it
16:25:23 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: can drop the equality test case
16:25:36 [PaschkeAdrian]
csma: is the same a factorial
16:26:26 [ChrisW]
AOB?
16:26:34 [ChrisW]
next meeting in 1 week, last meeting!
16:27:21 [Zakim]
-Gary_Hallmark
16:27:23 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:27:23 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been LeoraMorgenstern, Sandro, Harold, +1.512.342.aaaa, DaveReynolds, ChrisW, Doug, PaschkeAdrian, Gary_Hallmark, +33.9.53.56.aabb, csma,
16:27:27 [Zakim]
... StellaMitchell
16:27:27 [Zakim]
-LeoraMorgenstern
16:27:27 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:27:28 [Zakim]
-Doug
16:27:29 [Zakim]
-DaveReynolds
16:27:32 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:27:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/21-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:27:38 [Zakim]
-StellaMitchell
16:27:40 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:28:18 [Zakim]
-PaschkeAdrian
16:29:24 [Zakim]
-csma
16:29:49 [csma]
I was dropped again
16:30:05 [csma]
Is Friday 9am/3pm fine for you, Sandro?
16:30:06 [ChrisW]
9AM ET is fine for sandro
16:30:08 [ChrisW]
ttyt
16:30:15 [csma]
ok ttyt
16:30:15 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
16:30:16 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:30:16 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:30:18 [Zakim]
Attendees were LeoraMorgenstern, Sandro, Harold, +1.512.342.aaaa, DaveReynolds, ChrisW, Doug, PaschkeAdrian, Gary_Hallmark, +33.9.53.56.aabb, csma, StellaMitchell
16:41:00 [ChrisW_]
ChrisW_ has joined #rif