14:57:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:57:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/21-rif-irc
14:57:29 <sandro> zakim, this will be rif
14:57:29 <Zakim> ok, sandro; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:58:41 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:00:39 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:43 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern
15:01:40 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:01:47 <leora> leora has joined #rif
15:02:01 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:02:39 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
15:02:43 <PaschkeAdrian> PaschkeAdrian has joined #rif
15:02:52 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:03:17 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:03:20 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:03:20 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:03:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:03:24 <Zakim> + +1.512.342.aaaa
15:03:38 <Doug> Doug has joined #rif
15:03:48 <leora> Adrian, I just made a bunch of changes to the UCR document.
15:03:51 <ChrisW> zakim, this is rif
15:03:51 <Zakim> ChrisW, this was already SW_RIF()11:00AM
15:03:52 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; that matches SW_RIF()11:00AM
15:04:48 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the call?
15:04:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeoraMorgenstern, Harold, Sandro, [IBM], DaveReynolds, +1.512.342.aaaa
15:04:56 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:04:56 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:05:21 <ChrisW> zakim, aaaa is Doug
15:05:21 <Zakim> +Doug; got it
15:05:24 <leora> Chris, I did the changes you requested to UCR, including softening the statements that something CANNOT be represented in BLD. (See the intro.)
15:05:41 <Zakim> +??P37
15:05:59 <ChrisW> zakim, ??P37 is PaschkeAdrian 
15:05:59 <Zakim> +PaschkeAdrian; got it
15:06:06 <ChrisW> Scribe: PaschkeAdrian 
15:06:12 <ChrisW> scribenick: PaschkeAdrian 
15:06:18 <ChrisW> TOPIC: Admin
15:06:21 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:06:31 <ChrisW> Last meeting minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Sep/att-0020/2010-09-14-rif-minutes.html
15:06:46 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept last week's minutes
15:06:53 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes
15:07:07 <ChrisW> TOPIC: Liason
15:08:07 <ChrisW> TOPIC: Actions
15:08:54 <ChrisW> close action-1053
15:08:54 <trackbot> ACTION-1053 Review UCR closed
15:09:37 <PaschkeAdrian> close action-1051
15:09:37 <trackbot> ACTION-1051 Annotate use cases wrt implmentability w existing dialects closed
15:11:22 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:12:56 <ChrisW> TOPIC: RIF Primer
15:13:09 <Zakim> + +33.9.53.56.aabb
15:13:28 <csma> zakim, aabb is me
15:13:28 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:13:37 <PaschkeAdrian> Leora: need to add a summary of Christian's XML document
15:13:50 <PaschkeAdrian> Leora: would prefer to leave it out since it is not finished yet
15:14:17 <Harold> Note that RIF+XML-Data already is in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Overview#A_General_Survey_of_the_RIF_Documents
15:14:42 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: motivation is report on the combination of RIF and XML data since the other combinations are in the primer
15:15:22 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: want to show that you can use RIF also with other formats not just Semantic Web data / formats
15:15:57 <PaschkeAdrian> Harold: OWL2RL is not in the primer as well
15:16:22 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: thought we can write different primers with different focus
15:16:32 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: but do not have the bandwith
15:16:50 <PaschkeAdrian> Doug: would be good to have a list of what is missing
15:17:03 <Harold> Note http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Primer#What_this_document_doesn.27t_cover
15:17:21 <PaschkeAdrian> Doug: make it explicit what this document does not cover
15:17:37 <PaschkeAdrian> Leora: there is already a section about this
15:18:46 <PaschkeAdrian> Sandro: primer mostly about Core, i.e. RIF Core Primer
15:19:30 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: yes we can make it more specific
15:19:40 <PaschkeAdrian> Harold: 5.1 mentions equality
15:19:54 <PaschkeAdrian> Sandro: yes, is the only section about BLD
15:21:10 <PaschkeAdrian> Sandro: prefer to have it as a RIF Core primer
15:21:34 <PaschkeAdrian> Harold: built-ins are also in PRD
15:22:40 <Harold> We have "RIF Datatypes and Built-Ins 1.0"
15:23:50 <PaschkeAdrian> Leora: problem of time to address all dialects in the Primer, e..g would be good to address PRD as well, but no time for it
15:24:02 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: what about RIF Primer for Logic
15:24:20 <PaschkeAdrian> Leora: to generic title
15:24:44 <sandro> q?
15:25:23 <DaveReynolds> Suspect my mic isn't working. The document primarily mentions BLD not Core. The examles and features might be mostly the Core subset but the prose keeps referring to BLD>
15:25:49 <ChrisW> I suggest "RIF Logic Primer"
15:25:57 <PaschkeAdrian> Sandro: if we call it RIF Core primer we should take out section 5.1
15:26:05 <PaschkeAdrian> Leora: we need 5.1
15:26:21 <PaschkeAdrian> Sandro: get someone else to contribute PRD to Primer
15:26:38 <PaschkeAdrian> Garry: can contribute something
15:26:45 <ChrisW> action: Gary to try and add a PRD section to primer
15:26:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1054 - Try and add a PRD section to primer [on Gary Hallmark - due 2010-09-28].
15:27:03 <sandro> ACTION: Gary to contribute a PRD section like the BLD section (5.1) to the Primer
15:27:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1055 - Contribute a PRD section like the BLD section (5.1) to the Primer [on Gary Hallmark - due 2010-09-28].
15:27:46 <ChrisW> close action-1054
15:27:47 <trackbot> ACTION-1054 Try and add a PRD section to primer closed
15:28:01 <Zakim> -csma
15:28:42 <PaschkeAdrian> Sandro: will correct some additional review comments in the primer
15:29:36 <Zakim> +csma
15:29:57 <ChrisW> TOPIC: xml data
15:30:51 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: review comments from Gary ...
15:31:50 <PaschkeAdrian> csma:  abbreviated presentation synatx, although not normative, is used, since it is more compact
15:32:34 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: need to change the EBNF
15:33:49 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: implementation dependent - undefined; will change this
15:34:05 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: singelton list - in Schema you know if it is a list or not; 
15:34:28 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: without schema, i.e. just data, hard to know if it is a list or singel data
15:34:45 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: depends on the application in casw without schema
15:35:06 <PaschkeAdrian> Gary: zero linked lists should be mentioned
15:37:27 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: regarding comment on "modify XMl document"
15:38:17 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: benefit of abstract model is, that it does not specify the semantics for adding data to the source XML document
15:38:39 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: it is up to your application if it reserializes inferred data
15:43:22 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: next point - consumer side input; should that apply to OWL-RDF data
15:47:17 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: question is, can we make a technical note of this spec. although it is only an initial spec, e.g. withouth beeing detailed
15:47:27 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: only 1 1/2 week left
15:48:10 <PaschkeAdrian> Gary: would be good if more people read it; short time frame is a concern; so it will not be complete and consistent 
15:48:31 <PaschkeAdrian> Gary: would be good to have it as placeholder; do not know about the procedure ehre
15:49:03 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: release it as working draft next week; last working group meeting next week
15:49:10 <PaschkeAdrian> Sandro: can publish as a note
15:49:22 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: sound more like a draft than a note
15:49:40 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: can we leave editors notes in a note?
15:50:07 <PaschkeAdrian> Sandro: we can do what we want; either note or working draft
15:50:10 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #RIF
15:51:55 <Zakim> +??P10
15:52:11 <StellaMitchell> zakom, ??p10 is me
15:52:17 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: think working draft is the right state to leave it when the working group ends, to point out that it is not finished
15:52:25 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: agree, prefer WD as well
15:52:33 <StellaMitchell> zakim, ??p10 is me
15:52:33 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:52:36 <sandro> cmsa: agreed -- XML-Data will be a WD in the next (last) version.
15:52:53 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: will vote on publication next Tuesday 
15:53:03 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: what can be done by then
15:53:15 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: will work on Garys comments
15:53:28 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: asked Jos and Michael
15:53:57 <PaschkeAdrian> cmsa: Jos reviewed an older version; Michael will be travelling
15:54:27 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: maybe Jos can do, but good to have anotehr reviewer
15:55:05 <leora> leora has joined #rif
15:55:56 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
15:55:56 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose PaschkeAdrian
15:56:52 <ChrisW> action: Adrian to review XML data
15:56:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1056 - Review XML data [on Adrian Paschke - due 2010-09-28].
15:57:17 <ChrisW> TOPIC: UCR
15:58:40 <PaschkeAdrian> Stella: proposed to remove section http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Structure_of_RIF
15:59:14 <PaschkeAdrian> Leora: add a link to the RIF overview document
15:59:28 <PaschkeAdrian> Stella: add RIf PRD in the bullet list
15:59:49 <PaschkeAdrian> Harold: in the bullet list which are relevant to the use cases
16:00:12 <PaschkeAdrian> Harold: in the bullet list only those dialects that are relevant to the use cases
16:01:36 <PaschkeAdrian> Leora: Stella to review the changes by Leora
16:01:38 <csma> Typo: second bullet in section 3: use present, not past tense
16:02:20 <PaschkeAdrian> Stella: distinction between general and basic requirements http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Requirements
16:02:40 <PaschkeAdrian> Leora: had some historic reasons; 
16:03:46 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: basic requirements where from an earlier version of UCR where we had critical success factors, phase I and phase II requirement etc.
16:03:53 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: later we simplified it
16:04:07 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: get rid of the distinction
16:04:30 <PaschkeAdrian> Adrian: will list them as requirements; will change it
16:05:18 <PaschkeAdrian> Adrian: changes from Leora are open; from this morning
16:05:26 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: looks ready for publication
16:05:33 <sandro> plan is to publish UCR as Note.
16:05:33 <PaschkeAdrian> Sandro: publish as note
16:05:34 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:05:34 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:05:54 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: will be voted next week
16:06:16 <PaschkeAdrian> Leora: want to add a reference on deontic logic; which is mentioned in one of the comments
16:06:27 <ChrisW> TOPIC: Test Cases
16:06:51 <PaschkeAdrian> Stella: approved all test cases; 
16:07:05 <PaschkeAdrian> Stella: Sandro wanted to add a new one about RIF XMl data
16:07:40 <PaschkeAdrian> Stella: section on test results 6.2
16:07:44 <csma> q+
16:07:56 <PaschkeAdrian> Stella: test results page might be removed?
16:08:47 <PaschkeAdrian> Stella: result page is not complete; 
16:09:19 <PaschkeAdrian> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/test/results/report
16:10:32 <csma> There are 4 test cases in the "proposed" section, and 5 in the "in development" section...
16:10:39 <csma> What do we do with them?
16:10:43 <csma> q-
16:11:19 <PaschkeAdrian> Leora:  should be linked from some document, so that we do not lose it
16:11:33 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: could be used in a community page
16:11:50 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:11:50 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:12:39 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: csma what about the 4 open test cases?
16:13:01 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: if I have time I will work on them; I have the XML, but need to update the PS
16:13:25 <PaschkeAdrian> Sandro: can use tool for translation from XML to PS
16:13:36 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: does it support PRD
16:13:55 <PaschkeAdrian> Sandro: probably yes; do not know if it is working 
16:14:03 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: will send you the XML
16:15:51 <PaschkeAdrian> Stella: test cases also need to be structure as entailment test 
16:16:01 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: will look at it
16:17:35 <Leora_> Leora_ has joined #rif
16:17:51 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: other test cases (in development)
16:18:42 <PaschkeAdrian> Stella: three UCR use cases
16:19:59 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: equality test cases
16:20:18 <PaschkeAdrian> Adrian: was the original use case and later refined to different factorial use cases
16:21:03 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: do we want nothing left "in development"?
16:25:10 <PaschkeAdrian> ChrisW: no oppinion about it
16:25:23 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: can drop the equality test case
16:25:36 <PaschkeAdrian> csma: is the same a factorial
16:26:26 <ChrisW> AOB?
16:26:34 <ChrisW> next meeting in 1 week, last meeting!
16:27:21 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:27:23 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:27:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been LeoraMorgenstern, Sandro, Harold, +1.512.342.aaaa, DaveReynolds, ChrisW, Doug, PaschkeAdrian, Gary_Hallmark, +33.9.53.56.aabb, csma,
16:27:27 <Zakim> ... StellaMitchell
16:27:27 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
16:27:27 <Zakim> -Harold
16:27:28 <Zakim> -Doug
16:27:29 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:27:32 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:27:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/21-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:27:38 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:27:40 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
16:28:18 <Zakim> -PaschkeAdrian
16:29:24 <Zakim> -csma
16:29:49 <csma> I was dropped again
16:30:05 <csma> Is Friday 9am/3pm fine for you, Sandro?
16:30:06 <ChrisW> 9AM ET is fine for sandro
16:30:08 <ChrisW> ttyt
16:30:15 <csma> ok ttyt
16:30:15 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:30:16 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:30:16 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:30:18 <Zakim> Attendees were LeoraMorgenstern, Sandro, Harold, +1.512.342.aaaa, DaveReynolds, ChrisW, Doug, PaschkeAdrian, Gary_Hallmark, +33.9.53.56.aabb, csma, StellaMitchell
16:41:00 <ChrisW_> ChrisW_ has joined #rif