IRC log of tagmem on 2010-09-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:00:35 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
17:00:37 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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17:00:39 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TAG
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ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started
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Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
17:00:40 [trackbot]
Date: 16 September 2010
17:00:59 [Yves]
17:01:09 [Zakim]
17:01:56 [Ashok]
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17:02:17 [noah]
scribenick: masinter
17:02:29 [noah]
meeting: TAG Teleconference of 16 Sept 2010
17:02:33 [Zakim]
17:02:39 [Zakim]
17:02:50 [noah]
17:03:04 [johnk]
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17:05:30 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
17:05:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Masinter, noah, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves
17:05:31 [Zakim]
On IRC I see johnk, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, noah, jar, ht, masinter, Yves, trackbot
17:05:38 [masinter]
Larry talking about getting brief "MIME and the web" on today's agenda just to set direcdtions
17:05:49 [masinter]
topic: agenda
17:06:30 [ht_home]
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17:06:35 [masinter]
topic: scheduling meetings
17:06:54 [masinter]
ashok won't be on some telcons (missed which ones)
17:07:06 [masinter]
noah wants people to get some writing done
17:07:31 [Zakim]
17:07:34 [masinter]
topic: approval of minutes
17:07:46 [Ashok]
I will niss the next 3 telcons ... next telcon I can attend is Oct 14
17:08:02 [noah]
Minutes of Sept 2.:
17:08:25 [johnk]
+1 also
17:08:26 [masinter]
resolution: minutes of Sept 2 approved
17:08:27 [Ashok]
17:08:39 [masinter]
topic: administrative items
17:08:50 [masinter]
noah: F2F coming up
17:08:51 [ht_home]
I am coming
17:09:09 [jar]
I'm planning on it
17:09:11 [masinter]
Larry, Ashok, Jonathan will be there
17:09:21 [johnk]
I can't say yet, but *should* be there
17:11:49 [masinter]
noah: Contact from Mark Nottingham (IETF liaison to W3C), suggesting that Alexey M. IETF application area director is planning on being at TPAC, suggested possible meeting with TAG
17:12:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.760.705.aaaa - is perhaps Alan
17:13:23 [masinter]
noah: suggest responding to MNot suggesting meeting at TPAC on Thursday
17:13:47 [Zakim]
17:13:59 [noah]
YL: I can take the action
17:14:16 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to respond positively to Mark Nottingham regarding meeting with Alexey at TPAC
17:14:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-463 - Respond positively to Mark Nottingham regarding meeting with Alexey at TPAC [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-23].
17:14:26 [ht_home]
I will unfortunately now not going to be in Lyon at all
17:14:26 [noah]
HT: I will, unfortunately, not be in Lyon
17:15:14 [jar]
I won't be in Lyon either
17:15:14 [noah]
ACTION: Yves to coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC
17:15:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-464 - Coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC [on Yves Lafon - due 2010-09-23].
17:15:29 [noah]
ACTION-464 due: 2010-10-23
17:15:47 [noah]
ACTION-464: due 2010-10-23
17:15:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-464 Coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC notes added
17:16:11 [jar]
ACTION-464 due 2010-10-23
17:16:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-464 Coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC due date now 2010-10-23
17:17:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.332.aabb
17:17:38 [Zakim]
- +1.408.332.aabb
17:17:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.332.aacc
17:17:52 [noah]
scribenick: Ashok
17:18:54 [Ashok]
Noah: We need to do some writing. Will talk to people one-on-one
17:19:23 [Ashok]
Topic: Metadata Architecture
17:19:26 [noah]
17:19:46 [Ashok]
Noah: Jonathan would like to pass this on to someone else
17:20:28 [Ashok]
jar: I cannot think about anything non-trivial to say ...
17:20:51 [jar]
masinter: survey what w3c is doing?
17:21:03 [Ashok]
Larry: Can we survey waht W3C does about metadata and problems thereon
17:21:25 [Ashok]
17:21:59 [Ashok]
Noah: Should we follow the links from the action
17:22:36 [Ashok]
jar: I cannot do this ... would be better if we got some fresh eyes looking at it
17:22:57 [Ashok]
... or postpone to January
17:24:02 [Ashok]
Noah: We could close it but wait till Tim is around
17:25:04 [Ashok]
... or someone follow the links
17:25:11 [jar]
17:25:11 [noah]
Take a look at email:
17:27:02 [noah]
Tracker, this discussion is about ACTION-282
17:27:23 [Ashok]
Ashok: That's about metadata access ... this issue is about Metadata architecture
17:27:52 [noah]
I think Larry is proposing: "Draft a finding on which metadata technologies (RDFa, photo EXIF, etc.) do I use when?"
17:28:06 [noah]
Maybe we should retitle the action?
17:28:10 [Ashok]
Larry: People don't know how to write metadata ... lots of confusion
17:28:13 [jar]
masinter: A success criterion for this activity. RDFa, microdata, XIF, XMP, GPS, privacy policy. People are confused about what to use when. It's a confusing mess. What happens when they conflict? When I want to change it? Operational issues among W3C and other specs.
17:28:58 [noah]
NM: I think we also discovered that the advice in is misleading; ACTION-282 is mostly NOT about metadata access.
17:29:17 [noah]
LM: I'd like an architecture which is a framework into which these specific mechanisms can be placed.
17:29:19 [noah]
17:29:38 [Ashok]
Larry: We need a framework into which these mechanisms can fit
17:30:00 [Ashok]
jar: That matches my memory of how this came up
17:31:17 [noah]
jar: F2F discussion would be good...we're ready
17:31:21 [Ashok]
jar: Perhaps duscuss at f2f
17:31:58 [Ashok]
Larry: Perhaps create an outline
17:32:49 [Ashok]
noah: I can put on an agenda
17:33:10 [Ashok]
Larry: May be good to have a reading list
17:33:47 [Ashok]
... I will send mail
17:34:00 [noah]
. ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of ACTION-282, which metadata mechanisms to use when. Get reading list from Larry and www-tag.
17:34:27 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of ACTION-282, "which metadata mechanisms to use when". Get reading list from Larry and www-tag.
17:34:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-465 - Schedule discussion of ACTION-282, "which metadata mechanisms to use when". Get reading list from Larry and www-tag. [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-23].
17:35:53 [Ashok]
present: Larry, Noah, Jonathan, Ashok, Henry, John_Kemp, Yves
17:36:10 [Ashok]
regrets: DanA
17:37:03 [Ashok]
Topic: Generic fragment id processing
17:38:15 [Ashok]
Noah: There is inconsistency in 3023bis and frag-id processing for RDF+XML
17:38:35 [Ashok]
... disagreement about what should be done
17:39:24 [Ashok]
... TAG recommended that 3023bis back off but we got strong pushback saying that generic processing was desirable
17:39:32 [noah]
Larry's email:
17:40:00 [noah]
17:41:05 [Ashok]
Larry: Is there usecase for putting Xpointer in the frag-id?
17:41:29 [Ashok]
Noah: Recaps the generic processing argument
17:42:05 [noah]
ack next
17:42:47 [Ashok]
Yves: Issue is not have XPointer supported but all media types must have a syntax compatible with XPointer
17:43:10 [noah]
Martin Duerst's Note:
17:43:21 [noah]
Roy Fielding's note:
17:43:39 [noah]
Norm Walsh's note:
17:44:06 [noah]
17:44:14 [johnk]
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17:44:31 [noah]
Norm writes:
17:44:31 [noah]
>> I find that unsatisfactory. It leaves generic XML processors out in
17:44:31 [noah]
>> the cold once again by expecting them to be aware of all of the media
17:44:31 [noah]
>> type registrations for all +xml formats.
17:44:56 [noah]
q+ to go back to talking about conneg
17:45:13 [Ashok]
Henry: By using +xml they buy into XML and thus folks expect XML processing
17:45:39 [noah]
ack next
17:45:41 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to go back to talking about conneg
17:47:11 [Ashok]
Noah: So, people can read different documents and process the content differently
17:48:36 [Ashok]
Larry: You want frag-id processing be generic
17:48:51 [jar]
ht, noah: the URIref 'identifies' one thing when the processor has read the rdf+xml spec, a different thing when it reads 3023bis. maybe that's ok?
17:49:07 [jar]
... a single document, same media type in both cases
17:50:22 [jar]
masinter: I want to push back on Norm's and Roy's use cases
17:50:39 [Zakim]
17:50:54 [Ashok]
Larry: I want to push back on their usecases ... don't understand why frag-id processing has to be generic
17:50:58 [Zakim]
17:51:03 [noah]
HT: XSL stylesheets that format rdf+xml
17:51:30 [jar]
I don't buy that one. It would be meaningless (almost always) in the RDF interpretation
17:51:35 [ht_home]
Note that XInclude is _not_ an example, because it does not allow the use of FragIDs
17:52:05 [Ashok]
Larry: I will ask Norm or Roy for concrete example
17:52:09 [noah]
ACTION: Larry to ask Norm, Roy and Martin for concrete use cases where generic processing of fragment ids is important
17:52:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-466 - Ask Norm, Roy and Martin for concrete use cases where generic processing of fragment ids is important [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-09-23].
17:52:11 [ht_home]
jar, the example I have in mind preserves the RDF semantics but restructures the RDF XML
17:52:56 [jar]
grumph. need details.
17:54:10 [noah]
topic: AWWW and the Web interaction model
17:54:13 [noah]
17:54:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-355 -- John Kemp to explore the degree to which AWWW and associated findings tell the interaction story for Web Applications -- due 2010-06-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:54:13 [trackbot]
17:54:42 [noah]
John did some writing:
17:55:38 [Ashok]
Discussion of John's document
17:56:26 [noah]
AWWW section on
17:56:32 [noah]
AWWW section on "Interaction":
17:58:05 [Ashok]
Noah: AWWW slices into 3 themes, identification, interaction, data formats
17:59:49 [Ashok]
John: How does client know it can use a particular URI ... client/server agreement
18:00:51 [Ashok]
... update of state w/o user interaction e.g. web sockets
18:01:59 [Ashok]
... need to define 'user agent' ... may be more than a browser
18:02:29 [Ashok]
... acts on behalf of server also
18:03:24 [Ashok]
Larry: Web apps break our model of knowledge ... downloaded code knows stuff client does not know
18:04:29 [Ashok]
... client runs downloaded code on behalf of server
18:04:31 [noah]
Larry: what's interesting is the client is executing code not (just) on behalf of the client, but rather downloading code that acts on behalf of the server
18:04:44 [noah]
I think that's a really useful way to put it.
18:05:54 [Ashok]
John: Clients act like servers and servers like clients
18:07:34 [Zakim]
18:07:50 [Ashok]
Larry: Client has to know security bounadries not the semantics
18:08:42 [Ashok]
18:09:30 [Ashok]
Noah: John, can you write a document ... maybe a sketch
18:09:39 [Ashok]
John: Yes
18:10:04 [noah]
LM: Be careful about terminology about "client", "server" and "knowing"
18:10:23 [Ashok]
Larry: Be careful about terminology -- client, server and knowing
18:11:00 [Ashok]
... only need URIs for states you need to come back to
18:11:06 [noah]
What I asked John to do was an early draft of either an updated version of, or else perhaps a finding that would be the start of a complementary section in some TAG publication
18:12:08 [Zakim]
18:12:37 [noah]
AM: Larry, you commented on my writeup saying that, and I agree with you. Raman came back and pushed back, but I've forgotten what his point was.
18:12:40 [noah]
AM: Do you know?
18:12:46 [noah]
LM: No.
18:13:55 [noah]
topic: MIME and the Web
18:13:56 [Zakim]
18:14:05 [Ashok]
Topic: MIME and the Web
18:14:48 [Ashok]
Larry: I wrote a blog post on use of MIME and how it could be aligned better
18:15:09 [Ashok]
... suggested some improvements to MIME registry
18:15:52 [noah]
LM: Thinking of splitting into two documents.
18:16:12 [Ashok]
... may be easier to get agreement on status and history than the improvements
18:16:20 [noah]
We are discussing:
18:16:31 [noah]
LM: Also might relate to versioning issues
18:16:52 [Ashok]
... also about sniffing
18:17:18 [Ashok]
... probly separate versions from variants
18:17:27 [ht_home]
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18:18:06 [Ashok]
... finally about distrbuted extensibility
18:18:34 [Ashok]
... I want to bring learning from other MIME types to HTML
18:20:30 [Ashok]
Larry: Pehaps descriptive expositions of what has happenned
18:20:46 [Ashok]
Noah: Can you do some work on this
18:21:01 [Ashok]
Larry: I will have another document in a week
18:22:26 [noah]
ACTION: Larry to revise Mime & Web blog entry, perhaps leading to Internet Draft
18:22:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-467 - Revise Mime & Web blog entry, perhaps leading to Internet Draft [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-09-23].
18:23:30 [noah]
18:23:42 [Ashok]
Topic: Pending Review Actions
18:23:53 [Ashok]
18:25:02 [noah]
NM: I've closed ACTION-322
18:25:05 [noah]
18:25:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-322 -- Jonathan Rees to brief Science Commons counsel re forbidding hyperlinking -- due 2010-08-20 -- CLOSED
18:25:05 [trackbot]
18:25:23 [Zakim]
18:25:27 [Zakim]
- +1.408.332.aacc
18:25:36 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to invite Thinh to telcon where Tim will be available to discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking"
18:25:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-468 - Invite Thinh to telcon where Tim will be available to discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking" [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-23].
18:25:41 [noah]
18:25:41 [trackbot]
ACTION-468 -- Noah Mendelsohn to invite Thinh to telcon where Tim will be available to discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking" -- due 2010-09-23 -- OPEN
18:25:41 [trackbot]
18:25:56 [masinter]
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18:26:23 [masinter]
zakim, who is here
18:26:23 [Zakim]
masinter, you need to end that query with '?'
18:26:29 [masinter]
zakim, who is here?
18:26:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see noah, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, John_Kemp, Masinter
18:26:31 [Zakim]
On IRC I see masinter, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, noah, jar, Yves, trackbot
18:26:54 [noah]
18:26:54 [trackbot]
ACTION-355 -- John Kemp to explore the degree to which AWWW and associated findings tell the interaction story for Web Applications -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN
18:26:54 [trackbot]
18:27:32 [noah]
18:29:02 [Zakim]
18:29:03 [Zakim]
18:29:13 [Ashok]
18:29:15 [Zakim]
18:29:16 [Zakim]
18:29:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Yves
18:29:18 [Zakim]
18:29:30 [Ashok]
meeting: TAG Weekly
18:29:38 [Ashok]
chair: Noah
18:29:53 [Ashok]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:30:06 [Ashok]
rrsagent, pointer
18:30:06 [RRSAgent]
18:31:09 [Zakim]
18:31:10 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:31:12 [Zakim]
Attendees were Masinter, noah, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, ht_home, +1.760.705.aaaa, +1.408.332.aabb, +1.408.332.aacc, John_Kemp