17:00:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
17:00:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-tagmem-irc
17:00:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:00:37 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #tagmem
17:00:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TAG
17:00:39 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started
17:00:40 <trackbot> Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
17:00:40 <trackbot> Date: 16 September 2010
17:00:59 <Yves> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0024.html
17:01:09 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Rees
17:01:56 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #tagmem
17:02:17 <noah> scribenick: masinter
17:02:29 <noah> meeting: TAG Teleconference of 16 Sept 2010
17:02:33 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
17:02:39 <Zakim> +Yves
17:02:50 <noah> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-agenda
17:03:04 <johnk> johnk has joined #tagmem
17:05:30 <noah> zakim, who is here?
17:05:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Masinter, noah, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves
17:05:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see johnk, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, noah, jar, ht, masinter, Yves, trackbot
17:05:38 <masinter> Larry talking about getting brief "MIME and the web" on today's agenda just to set direcdtions
17:05:49 <masinter> topic: agenda
17:06:30 <ht_home> ht_home has joined #tagmem
17:06:35 <masinter> topic: scheduling meetings
17:06:54 <masinter> ashok won't be on some telcons (missed which ones)
17:07:06 <masinter> noah wants people to get some writing done
17:07:31 <Zakim> +??P7
17:07:34 <masinter> topic: approval of minutes
17:07:46 <Ashok> I will niss the next 3 telcons ... next telcon I can attend is Oct 14
17:08:02 <noah> Minutes of Sept 2.: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/02-minutes
17:08:25 <johnk> +1 also
17:08:26 <masinter> resolution: minutes of Sept 2 approved
17:08:27 <Ashok> s/niss/miss/
17:08:39 <masinter> topic: administrative items
17:08:50 <masinter> noah: F2F coming up
17:08:51 <ht_home> I am coming
17:09:09 <jar> I'm planning on it
17:09:11 <masinter> Larry, Ashok, Jonathan will be there
17:09:21 <johnk> I can't say yet, but *should* be there
17:11:49 <masinter> noah: Contact from Mark Nottingham (IETF liaison to W3C), suggesting that Alexey M. IETF application area director is planning on being at TPAC, suggested possible meeting with TAG
17:12:16 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aaaa - is perhaps Alan
17:13:23 <masinter> noah: suggest responding to MNot suggesting meeting at TPAC on Thursday
17:13:47 <Zakim> -Masinter
17:13:59 <noah> YL: I can take the action
17:14:16 <noah> ACTION: Noah to respond positively to Mark Nottingham regarding meeting with Alexey at TPAC
17:14:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-463 - Respond positively to Mark Nottingham regarding meeting with Alexey at TPAC [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-23].
17:14:26 <ht_home> I will unfortunately now not going to be in Lyon at all
17:14:26 <noah> HT: I will, unfortunately, not be in Lyon
17:15:14 <jar> I won't be in Lyon either
17:15:14 <noah> ACTION: Yves to coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC
17:15:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-464 - Coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC [on Yves Lafon - due 2010-09-23].
17:15:29 <noah> ACTION-464 due: 2010-10-23
17:15:47 <noah> ACTION-464: due 2010-10-23
17:15:47 <trackbot> ACTION-464 Coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC notes added
17:16:11 <jar> ACTION-464 due 2010-10-23
17:16:12 <trackbot> ACTION-464 Coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC due date now 2010-10-23
17:17:01 <Zakim> + +1.408.332.aabb
17:17:38 <Zakim> - +1.408.332.aabb
17:17:51 <Zakim> + +1.408.332.aacc
17:17:52 <noah> scribenick: Ashok
17:18:54 <Ashok> Noah:  We need to do some writing.  Will talk to people one-on-one
17:19:23 <Ashok> Topic: Metadata Architecture
17:19:26 <noah> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0016.html
17:19:46 <Ashok> Noah:  Jonathan would like to pass this on to someone else
17:20:28 <Ashok> jar:  I cannot think about anything non-trivial to say ...
17:20:51 <jar> masinter: survey what w3c is doing?
17:21:03 <Ashok> Larry:  Can we survey waht W3C does about metadata and problems thereon
17:21:25 <Ashok> s/waht/what/
17:21:59 <Ashok> Noah:  Should we follow the links from the action
17:22:36 <Ashok> jar:  I cannot do this ... would be better if we got some fresh eyes looking at it
17:22:57 <Ashok> ... or postpone to January
17:24:02 <Ashok> Noah:  We could close it but wait till Tim is around
17:25:04 <Ashok> ... or someone follow the links
17:25:11 <jar> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-agenda
17:25:11 <noah> Take a look at email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Nov/0028.html
17:27:02 <noah> Tracker, this discussion is about ACTION-282
17:27:23 <Ashok> Ashok:  That's about metadata access ... this issue is about Metadata architecture
17:27:52 <noah> I think Larry is proposing:  "Draft a finding on which metadata technologies (RDFa, photo EXIF, etc.) do I use when?"
17:28:06 <noah> Maybe we should retitle the action?
17:28:10 <Ashok> Larry:  People don't know how to write metadata ... lots of confusion
17:28:13 <jar> masinter: A success criterion for this activity.  RDFa, microdata, XIF, XMP, GPS, privacy policy. People are confused about what to use when. It's a confusing mess. What happens when they conflict? When I want to change it? Operational issues among W3C and other specs.
17:28:58 <noah> NM: I think we also discovered that the advice in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Nov/0028.html is misleading; ACTION-282 is mostly NOT about metadata access.
17:29:17 <noah> LM: I'd like an architecture which is a framework into which these specific mechanisms can be placed.
17:29:19 <noah> q?
17:29:38 <Ashok> Larry:  We need a framework into which these mechanisms can fit
17:30:00 <Ashok> jar:  That matches my memory of how this came up
17:31:17 <noah> jar: F2F discussion would be good...we're ready
17:31:21 <Ashok> jar:  Perhaps duscuss at f2f
17:31:58 <Ashok> Larry:  Perhaps create an outline
17:32:49 <Ashok> noah:  I can put on an agenda
17:33:10 <Ashok> Larry:  May be  good to have a reading list
17:33:47 <Ashok> ... I will send mail
17:34:00 <noah> . ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of ACTION-282, which metadata mechanisms to use when.   Get reading list from Larry and www-tag.
17:34:27 <noah> ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of ACTION-282, "which metadata mechanisms to use when".   Get reading list from Larry and www-tag.
17:34:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-465 - Schedule discussion of ACTION-282, "which metadata mechanisms to use when".   Get reading list from Larry and www-tag. [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-23].
17:35:53 <Ashok> present: Larry, Noah, Jonathan, Ashok, Henry, John_Kemp, Yves
17:36:10 <Ashok> regrets:  DanA
17:37:03 <Ashok> Topic:  Generic fragment id processing
17:38:15 <Ashok> Noah:  There is inconsistency in 3023bis and frag-id processing for RDF+XML
17:38:35 <Ashok> ... disagreement about what should be done
17:39:24 <Ashok> ... TAG recommended that 3023bis back off but we got strong pushback saying that generic processing was desirable
17:39:32 <noah> Larry's email:  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Aug/0034.html
17:40:00 <noah> q?
17:41:05 <Ashok> Larry:  Is there usecase for putting Xpointer in the frag-id?
17:41:29 <Ashok> Noah:  Recaps the generic processing argument
17:42:05 <noah> ack next
17:42:47 <Ashok> Yves:  Issue is not have XPointer supported but all media types must have a syntax compatible with XPointer
17:43:10 <noah> Martin Duerst's Note: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jul/0022.html
17:43:21 <noah> Roy Fielding's note: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jul/0021.html
17:43:39 <noah> Norm Walsh's note: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jul/0020.html
17:44:06 <noah> q?
17:44:14 <johnk> johnk has left #tagmem
17:44:31 <noah> Norm writes: 
17:44:31 <noah> >> I find that unsatisfactory. It leaves generic XML processors out in
17:44:31 <noah> >> the cold once again by expecting them to be aware of all of the media
17:44:31 <noah> >> type registrations for all +xml formats.
17:44:56 <noah> q+ to go back to talking about conneg
17:45:13 <Ashok> Henry:  By using +xml they buy into XML and thus folks expect XML processing
17:45:39 <noah> ack next
17:45:41 <Zakim> noah, you wanted to go back to talking about conneg
17:47:11 <Ashok> Noah:  So, people can read different documents and process the content differently
17:48:36 <Ashok> Larry:  You want frag-id processing be generic 
17:48:51 <jar> ht, noah: the URIref 'identifies' one thing when the processor has read the rdf+xml spec, a different thing when it reads 3023bis.  maybe that's ok?
17:49:07 <jar> ... a single document, same media type in both cases
17:50:22 <jar> masinter: I want to push back on Norm's and Roy's use cases
17:50:39 <Zakim> -Alan
17:50:54 <Ashok> Larry:  I want to push back on their usecases ... don't understand why frag-id processing has to be generic
17:50:58 <Zakim> +John_Kemp
17:51:03 <noah> HT: XSL stylesheets that format rdf+xml
17:51:30 <jar> I don't buy that one.  It would be meaningless (almost always) in the RDF interpretation
17:51:35 <ht_home> Note that XInclude is _not_ an example, because it does not allow the use of FragIDs
17:52:05 <Ashok> Larry:  I will ask Norm or Roy for concrete example
17:52:09 <noah> ACTION: Larry to ask Norm, Roy and Martin for concrete use cases where generic processing of fragment ids is important
17:52:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-466 - Ask Norm, Roy and Martin for concrete use cases where generic processing of fragment ids is important [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-09-23].
17:52:11 <ht_home> jar, the example I have in mind preserves the RDF semantics but restructures the RDF XML
17:52:56 <jar> grumph. need details.
17:54:10 <noah> topic: AWWW and the Web interaction model
17:54:13 <noah> ACTION-355?
17:54:13 <trackbot> ACTION-355 -- John Kemp to explore the degree to which AWWW and associated findings tell the interaction story for Web Applications -- due 2010-06-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:54:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/355
17:54:42 <noah> John did some writing: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0034.html
17:55:38 <Ashok> Discussion of John's document
17:56:26 <noah> AWWW section on 
17:56:32 <noah> AWWW section on "Interaction": http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#interaction
17:58:05 <Ashok> Noah:  AWWW slices into 3 themes, identification, interaction, data formats
17:59:49 <Ashok> John:  How does client know it can use a particular URI ... client/server agreement
18:00:51 <Ashok> ... update of state w/o user interaction e.g. web sockets
18:01:59 <Ashok> ... need to define 'user agent'  ... may be more than a browser
18:02:29 <Ashok> ... acts on behalf of server also
18:03:24 <Ashok> Larry:  Web apps break our model of knowledge ... downloaded code knows stuff client does not know
18:04:29 <Ashok> ... client runs downloaded code on behalf of server
18:04:31 <noah> Larry: what's interesting is the client is executing code not (just) on behalf of the client, but rather downloading code that acts on behalf of the server
18:04:44 <noah> I think that's a really useful way to put it.
18:05:54 <Ashok> John:  Clients act like servers and servers like clients
18:07:34 <Zakim> -ht_home
18:07:50 <Ashok> Larry:  Client has to know security bounadries not the semantics
18:08:42 <Ashok> s/bounadries/boundaries/
18:09:30 <Ashok> Noah:  John, can you write a document ... maybe a sketch
18:09:39 <Ashok> John:  Yes
18:10:04 <noah> LM: Be careful about terminology about "client", "server" and "knowing"
18:10:23 <Ashok> Larry:  Be careful about terminology -- client, server and knowing
18:11:00 <Ashok> ... only need URIs for states you need to come back to
18:11:06 <noah> What I asked John to do was an early draft of either an updated version of http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#interaction, or else perhaps a finding that would be the start of a complementary section in some TAG publication
18:12:08 <Zakim> -John_Kemp
18:12:37 <noah> AM: Larry, you commented on my writeup saying that, and I agree with you.  Raman came back and pushed back, but I've forgotten what his point was.
18:12:40 <noah> AM: Do you know?
18:12:46 <noah> LM: No.
18:13:55 <noah> topic: MIME and the Web
18:13:56 <Zakim> +John_Kemp
18:14:05 <Ashok> Topic:  MIME and the Web
18:14:48 <Ashok> Larry:  I wrote a blog post on use of MIME and how it could be aligned better
18:15:09 <Ashok> ... suggested some improvements to MIME registry
18:15:52 <noah> LM: Thinking of splitting into two documents.
18:16:12 <Ashok> ... may be easier to get agreement on status and history than the improvements
18:16:20 <noah> We are discussing: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0027.html
18:16:31 <noah> LM: Also might relate to versioning issues
18:16:52 <Ashok> ... also about sniffing
18:17:18 <Ashok> ... probly separate versions from variants
18:17:27 <ht_home> ht_home has left #tagmem
18:18:06 <Ashok> ... finally about distrbuted extensibility
18:18:34 <Ashok> ... I want to bring learning from other MIME types to HTML
18:20:30 <Ashok> Larry:  Pehaps descriptive expositions of what has happenned
18:20:46 <Ashok> Noah: Can you do some work on this
18:21:01 <Ashok> Larry:  I will have another document in a week
18:22:26 <noah> ACTION: Larry to revise Mime & Web blog entry, perhaps leading to Internet Draft
18:22:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-467 - Revise Mime & Web blog entry, perhaps leading to Internet Draft [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-09-23].
18:23:30 <noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview
18:23:42 <Ashok> Topic:  Pending Review Actions
18:23:53 <Ashok>  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview
18:25:02 <noah> NM: I've closed ACTION-322
18:25:05 <noah> ACTION-322?
18:25:05 <trackbot> ACTION-322 -- Jonathan Rees to brief Science Commons counsel re forbidding hyperlinking -- due 2010-08-20 -- CLOSED
18:25:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/322
18:25:23 <Zakim> +Masinter
18:25:27 <Zakim> - +1.408.332.aacc
18:25:36 <noah> ACTION: Noah to invite Thinh to telcon where Tim will be available to discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking"
18:25:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-468 - Invite Thinh to telcon where Tim will be available to discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking" [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-23].
18:25:41 <noah> ACTION-468?
18:25:41 <trackbot> ACTION-468 -- Noah Mendelsohn to invite Thinh to telcon where Tim will be available to discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking" -- due 2010-09-23 -- OPEN
18:25:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/468
18:25:56 <masinter> masinter has joined #tagmem
18:26:23 <masinter> zakim, who is here
18:26:23 <Zakim> masinter, you need to end that query with '?'
18:26:29 <masinter> zakim, who is here?
18:26:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see noah, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, John_Kemp, Masinter
18:26:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see masinter, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, noah, jar, Yves, trackbot
18:26:54 <noah> ACTION-355?
18:26:54 <trackbot> ACTION-355 -- John Kemp to explore the degree to which AWWW and associated findings tell the interaction story for Web Applications -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN
18:26:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/355
18:27:32 <noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue
18:29:02 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
18:29:03 <Zakim> -John_Kemp
18:29:13 <Ashok> Adjourned
18:29:15 <Zakim> -Yves
18:29:16 <Zakim> -Jonathan_Rees
18:29:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-tagmem-minutes.html Yves
18:29:18 <Zakim> -Masinter
18:29:30 <Ashok> meeting:  TAG Weekly
18:29:38 <Ashok> chair:  Noah
18:29:53 <Ashok> rrsagent, make logs public
18:30:06 <Ashok> rrsagent, pointer
18:30:06 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-tagmem-irc#T18-30-06
18:31:09 <Zakim> -noah
18:31:10 <Zakim> TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:31:12 <Zakim> Attendees were Masinter, noah, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, ht_home, +1.760.705.aaaa, +1.408.332.aabb, +1.408.332.aacc, John_Kemp