14:58:06 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:58:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-html-a11y-irc
14:58:07 JF has joined #html-a11y
14:58:16 zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML
14:58:17 ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:25 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
14:58:28 zakim, call janina
14:58:28 ok, janina; the call is being made
14:58:32 + +1.217.840.aaaa
14:58:40 eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
14:58:50 zakim, drop janina
14:58:50 sorry, janina, I do not see a party named 'janina'
14:58:56 zakim, call janina
14:58:56 ok, janina; the call is being made
14:58:57 zakim, +1.217.840.aaaa is jongund
14:58:57 +Janina
14:58:57 +jongund; got it
14:59:08 +John_Foliot
14:59:36 +Gregory_Rosmaita
14:59:37 +Eric_Carlson
14:59:43 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0418.html
15:00:08 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
15:00:08 Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:00:08 agenda: this
15:00:08 agenda+ Identify Scribe
15:00:08 agenda+ Keyboard Access Requirements
15:00:09 agenda+ Drag & Drop
15:00:09 Zakim, call Mike
15:00:10 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:00:11 agenda+ Actions Review
15:00:13 +Mike
15:00:13 agenda+ TF Recommendations Followup & Updates
15:00:15 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage
15:00:16 regrets+ Laura_Carlson
15:00:17 agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
15:00:19 agenda+ be done
15:00:21 zakim, who is here?
15:00:25 On the phone I see jongund, Janina, John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Eric_Carlson, Mike
15:00:31 On IRC I see eric_carlson, JF, RRSAgent, jongund, kliehm, EverettZ, gfreed, oedipus, MikeSmith, Judy, MichaelC, silvia, Zakim, janina, trackbot
15:00:36 +??P4
15:00:54 +Michael_Cooper
15:01:00 agenda?
15:02:05 jongund has joined #html-a11y
15:02:08 zakim, ??P4 is Everett_Zufelt
15:02:11 +Everett_Zufelt; got it
15:02:18 +kliehm
15:03:19 Gez has joined #html-a11y
15:03:58 +??P14
15:04:34 zakim, ??P14 is Gez_Lemon
15:04:34 +Gez_Lemon; got it
15:04:56 oedipus has joined #html-a11y
15:04:57 zakim, who's noisy
15:04:57 I don't understand 'who's noisy', janina
15:05:11 Zakim, who's noisy?
15:05:23 MikeSmith, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jongund (95%), John_Foliot (61%), Michael_Cooper (23%)
15:05:39 zakim, mute Jon
15:05:39 jongund should now be muted
15:06:08 +Cynthia_Shelly
15:06:11 I've muted at my end
15:06:31 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:06:44 zakim, unmute jongund
15:06:45 jongund should no longer be muted
15:08:00 no
15:08:28 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
15:08:35 -Cynthia_Shelly
15:08:42 scribenick: oedipus
15:09:00 +Cynthia_Shelly
15:09:11 adrianba has joined #html-a11y
15:09:28 Zakim, code?
15:09:28 the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), MikeSmith
15:09:32 JS: Accesskeys is the topic
15:09:41 agendum 1
15:10:03 +[Microsoft]
15:10:16 JS: We would like to do more than just get status
15:10:20 zakim, [Microsoft] has adrianba
15:10:20 +adrianba; got it
15:10:33 JS: We need to meet the October 1st deadline
15:10:47 JS: Media group may need one more meeting
15:10:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:11:11 JS: We have two areas we have not had the movement in to areas, where we need bugs filed
15:11:31 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access
15:11:35 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements
15:11:35 -kliehm
15:11:38 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements
15:11:41 problems with accesskey as-is in HTML5: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0103.html
15:11:45 chaals' analysis of GJR"s "problems with accesskey as-is in HTML5: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0159.html
15:11:48 paulC suggested that these be entered as individual bugs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0119.html
15:11:51 JS: The on of the issues is keyboard access or device indepdence
15:11:51 +kliehm
15:11:52 judyB suggested that the TF discuss them first: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0149.html
15:12:14 verbose descriptor requirements: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0436.html
15:12:23 2 acceskey bugs filed:
15:12:26 1. [Bug 10251] Psuedo-Cascade of Multiple Accesskeys Definable for an Individual Element: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10251
15:12:28 2. [Bug 10252] New: HTML5 hard-binds "Action" to accesskey key-press: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10252
15:12:37 JS: The other issue is drag and drop device independence, so AT can perform drag and drop, current implementations are mouse centric
15:12:55 JS: Let's access command first and then move to drag and drop
15:13:13 UAAG dependencies and access-* http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements
15:14:24 GR: Accesskey was not a part of HTML5 it has now been reintroduced
15:14:42 -Mike
15:14:48 GR: The user agent group is a
15:14:53 I am muted now
15:14:57 GR:
15:15:20 zakim, [Microsoft] has adrianba,franko
15:15:20 adrianba was already listed in [Microsoft], adrianba
15:15:22 +franko; got it
15:15:27 GR: Originally HTML5 did not have accesskey, so PF submitted requirements and then nothing seems to have been done
15:15:52 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements
15:15:52 GR: HTML5 has introduced accesskey, but does not seem to address the accessibility issues
15:16:06 +??P5
15:16:16 GR: I looked at UAAG 2.0 and I put on the wiki pages, see URI
15:17:01 GR: There point of view is very keyboard centric, I would like to see more device independent, I think we want to fill the holes of discoverability and device independent activation
15:17:04 Zakim, call Mike
15:17:04 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:17:05 +Mike
15:17:25 GR: I am looking at UAAG 2.0 requirements for conformance
15:17:36 GR: Listed a number of commands ....
15:18:04 GR: The UAAG meets in an hours time, I will bring back more feedback from them
15:18:13 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements
15:18:17 GR: GR: Any questions?
15:18:44 frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
15:18:52 CS: SO on some other items, doing no hard, and then attempting to make improvements past that?
15:19:09 GR: That is a good question and I pose it to the task force
15:19:43 GR: I have been thinkig of taking HTML4 implementation and then addressing the problems and getting spec ready text
15:19:59 JF: Comment on problems with HTML5
15:20:28 GR: I want to take the proposal to UAAG and then come up with spec ready text, I think we need something they can plug right in
15:20:44 +Q
15:21:07 CS: I think we need to be ready for changes and take anything missing in HTML4 in HTML5
15:21:14 q?
15:21:21 GR: I will put in bugs related to moving focus and discoverability
15:21:31 CS: Is the work item?
15:21:40 GR: Put back what is no longer in HTML5
15:21:44 zakim, who's here?
15:21:44 On the phone I see jongund, Janina, John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Eric_Carlson, Mike, Everett_Zufelt, Michael_Cooper, Gez_Lemon, Cynthia_Shelly, [Microsoft], kliehm (muted), ??P5
15:21:47 [Microsoft] has franko
15:21:49 On IRC I see frankolivier, adrianba, oedipus, Gez, jongund, eric_carlson, JF, RRSAgent, kliehm, EverettZ, gfreed, MikeSmith, Judy, MichaelC, silvia, Zakim, janina, trackbot
15:22:00 GR: Add verbage satisfies the task for requirements
15:22:12 CS: Make sure it is clear int he bug tracker
15:22:39 GR: I am hoping by this effort I can identify with tabindex and command element ....
15:22:51 CS: That seems reasonable...
15:23:16 CS: Don't get upset if the bugs get pushed out
15:23:25 ack JF
15:23:29 GR: The task force will be tracking these issues
15:24:00 JF: You mention spec ready text we need a change proposal, do we need to discuss hear
15:24:22 yes, bugs
15:24:36 s/discuss hear/discuss here/
15:24:40 GR: We discussed this briefly last week, mike says lodge things as bugs, because issues are hard to now
15:24:49 CS: Ian will want to work on bugs
15:24:58 the chairs will also ask for separate specific bugs to be filed
15:25:08 GR: I will be doing both, I will put in bugs and develop spec ready text
15:25:33 CS: Make sure you make as HTML4 feature or new feature in HTML5
15:25:43 w00t oedipus
15:25:51 JF: Thank you to GR from everybody
15:26:06 JS: I agree we are behind his efforts
15:26:21 TOPIC: Drag and Drop
15:26:32 JS: We have some developers here
15:26:40 JS: Can you give us a summary
15:27:09 ??: I had a look at the drag and drop section
15:27:18 WHo is speaking?
15:27:20 GJR's synopsis of where we are with HTML5 DnD versus ARIA Dnd http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0410.html
15:27:53 GL: The series of events are mouse based
15:28:21 GL: It is difficult to understand how to do this on the keyboard??
15:28:46 GL: Do the event processing need to be revised to support the keyboard \, like ARIA
15:29:07 ACTION: Gregory - prepare detailed bugs against accesskey in HTML5, bugs seeking restoration of elements of accesskey from HTML4 that work and are deployed; will identify clearly whether bug refers to HTML4 or HTML5; in preparation for preparing spec ready text for accesskey; will tease out the issues pertaining to @tabindex and COMMAND element
15:29:08 Created ACTION-62 - - prepare detailed bugs against accesskey in HTML5, bugs seeking restoration of elements of accesskey from HTML4 that work and are deployed; will identify clearly whether bug refers to HTML4 or HTML5; in preparation for preparing spec ready text for accesskey; will tease out the issues pertaining to @tabindex and COMMAND element [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-09-23].
15:29:21 GL: Something similar to ARIA with grabbable and drop targets
15:29:41 JF: The copy paste model seems to make more sense
15:29:52 CS: Does the developer need to write extra code
15:29:56 Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:30:03 To make drag and drop accessible, HTML5 must:
15:30:05 zakim, who's here?
15:30:05 On the phone I see jongund, Janina, John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Eric_Carlson, Mike, Everett_Zufelt, Michael_Cooper, Gez_Lemon, Cynthia_Shelly, [Microsoft], kliehm (muted), ??P5
15:30:06 * first adequately define what can be achieved via copy and paste using drag and drop;
15:30:08 [Microsoft] has franko
15:30:09 JF: Yu should be able to identify target with HTML5
15:30:10 On IRC I see Stevef, frankolivier, adrianba, oedipus, Gez, jongund, eric_carlson, JF, RRSAgent, kliehm, EverettZ, gfreed, MikeSmith, Judy, MichaelC, silvia, Zakim, janina, trackbot
15:30:10 * define a copy and paste API in order to make drag and drop accessible; if that is not a viable solution, then the HTML5 drag and drop API MUST be amended to allow the workflow suggested for drag and drop in the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices document: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop
15:30:14 CS: Work is int he browser?
15:30:20 davidb has joined #html-a11y
15:30:21 * first adequately define what can be achieved via copy and paste using drag and drop;
15:30:23 * define a copy and paste API in order to make drag and drop accessible; if that is not a viable solution, then the HTML5 drag and drop API MUST be amended to allow the workflow suggested for drag and drop in the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices document: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop
15:30:23 GL: Yes in the browser
15:30:31 q?
15:30:51 JS: Do you folks have any reaction to this?
15:30:51 janina, Adrian Bateman is on as well
15:31:04 q?
15:31:07 JS: We have this working for mouse and non-mouse controllers
15:31:17 JCraig indicated that the ICITA ARIA DnD examples didn't work "normally" but work for me with JAWS 11/12
15:31:26 AB: The events in the spec provide 2 different things, source and target
15:31:44 AB: The second is providing feedback during the drag
15:31:56 AB, http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop
15:32:20 AB: Is the spec sufficient for providing information about drag and drop, is there something missing, is that the gap?
15:32:47 GL: Part of the sequence it povides feedback when you drag over with the mouse
15:33:07 AB: Is the gap is how to enumerate the drop targets?
15:33:10 GL: Yes
15:33:22 next steps on drag and drop (Gez) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0056.html
15:33:30 AB: The order of events are different, some are dependent on how fast you move the mouse
15:33:57 AB, there is no longer a copy and paste API in HTML5
15:33:57 AB: The real critical thing, comparing to copy and paste model, is the spec sufficient or does there need to be changes
15:34:24 GL: When these events fire, there need to be equivalent keyboard events
15:34:53 GL It is only one solution, so maybe it could be simulated in a copy and paste API
15:34:54 AB, would have to either reinstate copy and paste API or have HTML5 follow the ARIA DnD workflow http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop
15:35:07 GL: We don't want to have two apis
15:35:47 AB: Is is possible the spec provides enough information for the user agent to provide copy and paste functionality
15:36:01 GJR has long believed that keyboard drag and drop is a copy-and-past or cut-and-paste operation
15:36:02 AB: If we have all we need, no change is needed
15:36:16 GL: I don't know the answer
15:36:27 AB: We need to find the answer to that question
15:36:47 AB, the drag & drop event model does not seem to be very consistent from a JavaScript author's point of view.
15:37:09 GL: My gut feeling is there will need to be changes to the spec, we need someone from the browser side to review
15:37:35 q+
15:37:48 the only mention of copy and paste found in dev.w3.org/html5 is an example included in the introduction to the MENU element: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/interactive-elements.html#menus-intro which illustrates how to use the MENU element to create a toolbar styled as buttons with drop-down menues, in which the "Edit" button contains a "Copy" and a "Paste" item, controlled by javascript
15:37:50 JS: To move forward on this so need people to walk the events in different orders
15:38:18 GR: The only reference to copy and paste has only one reference and the example seems to have been removed
15:38:37 s/example seems/the API seems/
15:38:48 JS: How do move forward to answering the question
15:38:49 yes, the copy-and-paste section that was there is not there any longer
15:38:54 q?
15:38:59 ack oe
15:39:05 GL: I would be willing to work with adrian, I can't do myself
15:39:21 Frank: I think we can help
15:40:01 JS: That is a reasonable step, if you can do that we can get any bugs in by October 1st
15:40:04 -??P5
15:40:09 I found that one: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/dnd.html
15:40:13 JS: Are we satitisfied?
15:40:29 +1
15:40:38 GR: I think GL has done his due diligence, I think it is a good way to move forward
15:40:41 plus 1 and big thanks to gez
15:40:56 JS: Thank you Frank and Adrian for joining the meeting today
15:41:30 JS: We will come back to it next week, hopefully we will have some more clarity, we need to log bugs by October 1st
15:41:45 TOPIC: Actions review and sub team status
15:41:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:42:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:43:12 MC: Reviewing open actino items
15:43:39 s/actino/action/
15:43:52 GR: That text has been up there since june, I want to potentially use the space to mark them for stuff that needs to be in steves done
15:44:17 GR: It is techically done, but I need to talk to steve
15:44:54 CS: That was a huge battle, is it going to happen
15:45:16 JS: Issue 66 was turned down, image hueristics
15:45:29 MC: This action is open or closed state?
15:45:36 JS: I think we should close it
15:45:47 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Alt_tech_appendix
15:45:48 JS: Probably open a new action
15:45:51 close action-28
15:45:51 ACTION-28 - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list closed
15:45:55 MC: Any objection?
15:45:58 GR: No
15:46:20 MC: Auto complete consistent with ARIA?
15:46:26 JS: Steve is not here
15:46:30 Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:46:40 MC: Provide back ground support for drag and drop?
15:46:46 -Mike
15:47:01 close action-57
15:47:01 ACTION-57 Provide background keyboard support for drag and drop (3 weeks) closed
15:47:03