16:00:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webperf
16:00:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/15-webperf-irc
16:00:50 <AndersonQuach> Hi Philippe 
16:00:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:00:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webperf
16:00:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
16:00:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:00:53 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Performance Working Group Teleconference
16:00:53 <trackbot> Date: 15 September 2010
16:01:03 <plh> zakim, list conferences
16:01:12 <Zakim> I see RWC_web-per(WPWG)12:00PM, WAI_PF()12:00PM, SW_HCLS(LODD)11:00AM, INC_SWXG()11:00AM, Team_(ia)15:08Z, Team_(TPAC)11:00AM, Style_CSS FP()12:00PM, W3C_(interview)1:00PM,
16:01:15 <Zakim> ... VB_VBWG(SCXML)12:00PM, IA_XForms()11:00AM active
16:01:17 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are T&S_EGOV(UseWebTech)12:00PM, Team_(W3EU)12:00PM
16:01:26 <plh> zakim, this will be web-per
16:01:26 <Zakim> ok, plh, I see RWC_web-per(WPWG)12:00PM already started
16:01:39 <Zakim> +Plh
16:01:41 <Zakim> +Jason
16:02:36 <Zakim> + +1.604.908.aabb
16:03:28 <Zakim> +??P12
16:03:46 <AndersonQuach> scribe+AndersonQuach
16:03:57 <plh> scribe: AndersonQuach
16:04:16 <plh> Topic: f2f meeting planning
16:04:16 <AndersonQuach> agenda+ f2f meeting planning
16:04:28 <AndersonQuach> agenda+ tpac meeting update
16:04:33 <AndersonQuach> next agendum
16:05:07 <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aacc
16:05:45 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: End of week, meeting in mountain view, date 10/5/2010
16:06:27 <AndersonQuach> plh: may not be able to come for a subsequent 5hr meeting in Moutain View
16:07:12 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: keep the 12-5 for the first f2f, get agenda set by next week
16:07:25 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: if we have enough items on the agenda extend the meeting to all day
16:07:38 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: block out rooms at google for the entire day
16:07:45 <AndersonQuach> Anderson: sounds great
16:08:04 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: plh do you have advice to set the agenda?
16:08:22 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: already have the basic agenda to discuss the three specs
16:08:33 <AndersonQuach> plh: we should discuss testing as well
16:08:55 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: place to add agenda?
16:09:07 <AndersonQuach> plh: can send agenda items to the mailing list
16:09:30 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: mailing list is sufficient, with a link to a document
16:09:42 <AndersonQuach> Anderson: comfortable with establishing the agenda over email, low overhead
16:09:49 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: send an email to add to the list
16:09:56 <AndersonQuach> next agendum
16:10:07 <AndersonQuach> plh: got lucky we got room, monday and tuesday
16:10:41 <AndersonQuach> plh, nov 1st and nov 2nd, web apps working group will be meeting at the same time, one other thing, there is a fee to cover the costs. for each attendee register before oct 22nd
16:11:14 <AndersonQuach> plh: fee after 10/22 is dramatically increased, costs rise for late
16:11:41 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: potentially meet with the web apps working group at tpac
16:11:50 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: ask them for a slot to present
16:12:06 <Loki> Loki has joined #webperf
16:12:34 <AndersonQuach> plh: everyone in the same room for a technical plannery day
16:12:58 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: send email to web app chairs
16:13:32 <plh> see http://www.w3.org/Member/Mail/ for contact information
16:14:17 <AndersonQuach> Anderson: send feedback to the email list for agenda items and goals for meeting in tpac before committing to attending
16:14:36 <AndersonQuach> plh: one goal that can be satisfied with tpac is establishing test cases
16:15:16 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: let's establish the agenda through the email list for tpac and the f2f in mountain view
16:15:26 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: let's get to item to 1 and 2
16:15:38 <AndersonQuach> agenda+ processing Model, requestEnd and responseStart
16:15:42 <AndersonQuach> agenda +the addition of requestCount and uniqueDomains
16:15:45 <AndersonQuach> agenda +start Resource Timing and User Timing discussions
16:15:49 <AndersonQuach> next agendum
16:16:04 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: let's start with the next set of items
16:16:25 <AndersonQuach> Anderson: analyzed phases with tools
16:18:03 <AndersonQuach> Anderson:look at it from the wire or the browser
16:18:11 <AndersonQuach> present+TonyGentilcore
16:18:29 <AndersonQuach> Tony: some things are not present from the browser perspective, do we consider, browser phase or network stack
16:18:45 <AndersonQuach> Tony: maybe answer is both, sending phase, network view, request phase from the browser view
16:19:09 <AndersonQuach> Tony: the way the spec in webkit, reflects network view, the actual sending of data, as opposed to time to get back
16:21:24 <AndersonQuach> Anderson: the phases are broken down into browser work, sending request, waiting for server, first byte
16:21:52 <AndersonQuach> Steve: browsers may be downloading of resources before added to the dom, i can look at firebug netpanel and other tools and see when the request was sent over the wire
16:22:25 <AndersonQuach> Steve: do not lose this ability in the web timing spec, as a web developer i have no ability to measure how long it too on the network to download the jscript file
16:22:59 <AndersonQuach> Steve: lump together may lose this interesting data
16:24:04 <AndersonQuach> Nic: this conversation is intended to cover, the requestEnd phase in the IE implementation the point that we get the first byte back from the server, the webkit implementation is the browser has sent the request from the browser.
16:24:31 <AndersonQuach> Nic: approach taken was that from the user agent point of view, there is a consistent story across user agents.
16:25:00 <AndersonQuach> Nic: concern with perspective of sending the bytes to the server, some user agents sit on an abstraction of the network layer.
16:25:26 <AndersonQuach> Nic: in IE, sits on the abstraction of browser, wininet, tcp. the browser may not have insight into the lower layers.
16:25:54 <AndersonQuach> Nic: difference between the browser queuing the payload from when it actually was sent out.
16:26:22 <AndersonQuach> Nic: responseStart is not the time the server sends the response, it's the time the first byte was received in the browser. we are flexible for input.
16:26:48 <AndersonQuach> Nic: we want to make sure we can satisify the requirements as stated in the spec and is consistent in user agents.
16:27:12 <AndersonQuach> Steve: is there something in the spec that defines the requestEnd, when you're done with sending and receiving.
16:27:35 <AndersonQuach> Nic: definition in spec: time user agent finishes request the current document from the server.
16:27:43 <AndersonQuach> Tony: good time to have zhiheng on the call.
16:27:58 <AndersonQuach> regrets+zhiheng
16:28:30 <AndersonQuach> Tony: get unique datapoint with different data point between requestEnd and responseStart, capture that the user agent spends time uploading.
16:29:05 <AndersonQuach> Tony: not arguing one or another, key point to note here, is it important to measure time spent uploading request. okay with the phase with get me this, i got something back from the server.
16:30:20 <AndersonQuach> Anderson: request phase can encapsulate a large upload. it captures a large upload and a long latency
16:30:41 <AndersonQuach> Tony: Chrome network stack is re-written for multiple platform capability.
16:31:23 <AndersonQuach> Tony: usually from the browser perspective, there is no insight, if this is something to be difficult to implement, be interested to hear Mozilla's take. maybe it's nto worth breaking out sending and waiting for server., be interesting to hear mozilla's thoughts and zhiheng's thought.
16:31:29 <AndersonQuach> Tony: more parties need input here.
16:32:14 <AndersonQuach> Anderson: value input from other user agents on this matter.
16:32:35 <AndersonQuach> plh: can send emails to mozilla and apple if it helps?
16:32:42 <AndersonQuach> Anderson: absolutely
16:32:47 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: let's do that.
16:33:11 <plh> ACTION: plh to reach out to Mozilla and Apple
16:33:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-4 - Reach out to Mozilla and Apple [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2010-09-22].
16:33:20 <AndersonQuach> next agendum
16:33:43 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: next item is addtion of requestCount and uniqueDomains
16:34:51 <AndersonQuach> Anderson: was introduced in the 3rd platform preview, we would like feedback.
16:35:26 <AndersonQuach> Anderson: provided to give top level information about the navigation, to decribe dynamically generated pages, show total requests and show number of domain name lookups
16:35:52 <AndersonQuach> Tony: in absence of resource timing, may not be necessary and duplicate resource timing. resource timing is going to be a large topic, there's a lot of hard issues there.
16:36:03 <AndersonQuach> Tony: maybe it is useful to have something on the root document to expose these.
16:36:27 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: is there ambiguity how to compute requestCount and uniqueDomains.
16:36:50 <AndersonQuach> Tony: need a point where these are lock down, such as the point of loadEventEnd, or some point in the document, in the case of dynamic additions of resources to the document.
16:36:58 <AndersonQuach> Tony: Can you desribe how it works in IE?
16:37:33 <AndersonQuach> Nic: requestCount as we've talking about is the count of scripts, images, css, objects, and iframes/subdocs.
16:37:54 <AndersonQuach> Nic: in our implementation there is no end point, it continuously updates. the requestCount will continue to increment.
16:38:22 <AndersonQuach> Nic: similar to uniqueDomains, root document domain + unique domain, we increment domains.
16:38:36 <Zakim> -Jason
16:38:55 <AndersonQuach> Nic: added from feedback from web properties. this helps site developers gives a characteristic of the page load.
16:39:04 <AndersonQuach> Tony: these don't peer into subframes.
16:39:07 <AndersonQuach> Nic: yes
16:39:26 <AndersonQuach> Tony: if i have a resource in a redirect, it's only one  request.  i do like them, they may be redudant to resource timing.
16:39:28 <AndersonQuach> Nic: good point.
16:39:46 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: decide to include them or not?
16:39:58 <AndersonQuach> Tony: present to Zhiheng, i have no problems adding them to webkit if they are in the spec.
16:40:05 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: cover that next week.
16:40:17 <AndersonQuach> next agendum
16:40:29 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: last item for today start discussion on resource timing and user timing.
16:40:36 <Zakim> - +1.604.908.aabb
16:43:23 <AndersonQuach> Anderson: want to cover the scenarios to cover in resource timing, i. access to resource timing, ii. access to resource timing from resources that have a different origin from the root document. With the constraint of not disclosing browser history to an attacker.
16:43:29 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: can you put this on the email list?
16:43:32 <AndersonQuach> Anderson: Yes.
16:43:43 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: no items left.
16:43:49 <AndersonQuach> Anderson: We've covered all topics.
16:43:54 <AndersonQuach> Arvind: let's adjourn.
16:43:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/15-webperf-minutes.html plh
16:44:05 <Zakim> - +1.650.253.aaaa
16:44:07 <Zakim> -??P12
16:44:09 <Zakim> -Plh
16:44:10 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:44:10 <Zakim> - +1.650.214.aacc
16:44:11 <Zakim> RWC_web-per(WPWG)12:00PM has ended
16:44:13 <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], +1.650.253.aaaa, Plh, Jason, +1.604.908.aabb, +1.650.214.aacc
16:44:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/15-webperf-minutes.html plh
16:44:23 <plh> Chair: Arvind
16:44:53 <plh> Present: Steve, Anderson, Tony, Arvind, Plh, Jason
16:44:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/15-webperf-minutes.html plh
16:45:12 <plh> regrets+ JasonW
16:45:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/15-webperf-minutes.html plh
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