IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-09-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:43:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:43:34 [RRSAgent]
logging to
21:43:43 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
21:43:43 [Zakim]
ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
21:51:38 [JF]
JF has joined #html-a11y
21:53:29 [JF_]
JF_ has joined #html-a11y
21:53:50 [mkobayas]
mkobayas has joined #html-a11y
21:56:52 [JF]
trackbot, start telcon
21:56:55 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
21:56:57 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
21:56:57 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
21:56:58 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
21:56:58 [trackbot]
Date: 15 September 2010
21:57:29 [JF]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
21:57:30 [janina]
zakim, call janina
21:57:30 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
21:57:31 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM has now started
21:57:32 [Zakim]
21:57:51 [JF]
scribe: JF
21:57:57 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
21:57:57 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
21:57:57 [janina]
agenda: this
21:57:57 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe
21:57:57 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review
21:57:58 [janina]
agenda+ User Requirements: Update RE Additional Disclaimer
21:58:00 [janina]
agenda+ Proof of Concept Demos; Extended Descriptions from NCAM
21:58:02 [janina]
agenda+ Time/Track Formats
21:58:04 [janina]
agenda+ Technical Requirements Prioritizations and Dependencies
21:58:06 [janina]
agenda+ next meeting
21:58:08 [janina]
agenda+ be done
21:58:11 [Zakim]
21:59:06 [Zakim]
22:00:46 [Judy_DCA]
Judy_DCA has joined #html-a11y
22:01:48 [Judy_DCA]
zakim, code?
22:01:48 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), Judy_DCA
22:01:58 [Zakim]
22:02:21 [Zakim]
+ +039038aaaa
22:02:31 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.498.aabb
22:03:54 [Zakim]
22:04:06 [janina]
zakim, +1.425.498.aabb is Sean_Hayes
22:04:06 [Zakim]
+Sean_Hayes; got it
22:04:13 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
22:04:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, Eric_Carlson, ??P9, Judy, +039038aaaa, Sean_Hayes, Silvia
22:04:16 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:04:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Judy_DCA, mkobayas, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, davidb, MikeSmith, MichaelC, silvia, trackbot
22:04:18 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
22:04:21 [Judy_DCA]
zakim, +039038 is Kenny
22:04:21 [Zakim]
+Kenny; got it
22:05:01 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
22:05:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, Eric_Carlson, ??P9, Judy, Kenny, Sean_Hayes, Silvia (muted)
22:05:04 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Judy_DCA, mkobayas, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, davidb, MikeSmith, MichaelC, silvia, trackbot
22:05:19 [sean]
sean has joined #html-a11y
22:05:41 [Judy_DCA]
zakim, P9 is John
22:05:41 [Zakim]
sorry, Judy_DCA, I do not recognize a party named 'P9'
22:05:48 [Judy_DCA]
zakim, ??P9 is John
22:05:48 [Zakim]
+John; got it
22:05:55 [janina]
scribe: John
22:06:08 [janina]
zakim, john is John_Foliot
22:06:08 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot; got it
22:06:16 [janina]
scribe: John_Foliot
22:06:23 [janina]
22:06:50 [JF]
zakim:net item
22:06:57 [JF]
zakim: next item
22:07:18 [JF]
22:07:21 [janina]
scribe: jf
22:07:34 [janina]
zakim, take up item 1
22:07:34 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina]
22:07:47 [janina]
scribe will be John Foliot
22:07:51 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:07:51 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, janina
22:07:52 [JF]
zakim, take up item 2
22:07:52 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Actions Review" taken up [from janina]
22:07:57 [janina]
zakim, close item 1
22:07:57 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
22:07:58 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:07:59 [Zakim]
2. Actions Review [from janina]
22:08:01 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:08:01 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, janina
22:08:15 [JF]
Only one actionitem lefgt, on jduy
22:08:24 [JF]
zakim, next item
22:08:24 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, JF
22:08:43 [JF]
zakim, next item
22:08:43 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, JF
22:09:00 [JF]
zakim take up item 3
22:09:07 [Judy_DCA]
s/ actionitem lefgt, on jduy/ action item left, on Judy/
22:09:18 [JF]
zakim, take up item 3
22:09:18 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "User Requirements: Update RE Additional Disclaimer" taken up [from janina]
22:09:28 [JF]
Janina report last week to the HTML WG
22:09:35 [JF]
so far no questions or comments
22:09:45 [JF]
presentation went smoothly and well recieved
22:10:07 [silvia]
22:10:13 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:10:13 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
22:10:41 [JF]
yes we can hear Silvia
22:10:44 [janina]
Silvia, we hear you
22:10:44 [JF]
22:11:27 [JF]
Silvia - Q: did janina speak about a process about moving content into the W3C Draft
22:11:36 [JF]
regarding technical issues
22:12:09 [JF]
janina - pointed the chairs to the checklist and user requirements, and indicated that we are very close to analysis of the different time-stamp formats
22:12:12 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:12:12 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
22:12:37 [JF]
zakim, next item
22:12:37 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, JF
22:12:49 [JF]
ack Silvia
22:12:56 [JF]
zakim, next item
22:12:56 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Actions Review" taken up [from janina]
22:13:09 [JF]
zakim, take up item 4
22:13:09 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Proof of Concept Demos; Extended Descriptions from NCAM" taken up [from janina]
22:13:40 [JF]
Janina - in conversation with Geoff about proof of concept videos
22:14:01 [JF]
having examples. even in older formats is useful - Geoff has a number of examples
22:14:31 [JF]
Janina - just want to confirm that these would be useful, even if using older tech
22:14:57 [JF]
Eric - useful to have the rendered output so that we can see what it is supposed to look like
22:15:16 [JF]
and then perhaps the individual pieces so that we can re-create in current technologies as well
22:15:32 [JF]
will request thta of Geoff
22:15:50 [JF]
zakin, take up item 5
22:16:01 [JF]
zakim, take up item 5
22:16:01 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Time/Track Formats" taken up [from janina]
22:16:35 [JF]
Janina, can we bring over some of the WHAT WG language without specifying WebSRT
22:16:56 [silvia]
22:16:57 [JF]
seems that via email list that it would be possible but with some work
22:17:09 [JF]
asking if Sean/Silvia/Eric could work on this?
22:17:28 [Zakim]
22:17:42 [JF]
Sean: concern is over patent Policy
22:17:56 [JF]
copyright concerns
22:18:22 [JF]
so what we need to identify the edits we need to have made, ask ian/WHAT WG to make those changes, then move into the W3C spec
22:18:51 [JF]
so suggest we produce a list of changes and request the editor make the changes
22:18:57 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:18:57 [Zakim]
Silvia was not muted, silvia
22:19:22 [Judy_DCA]
22:19:50 [JF]
Silvia: a little worried about us going ahead and making radical changes to ian's work
22:20:07 [JF]
suggest that we are concerned about the explicit mention of WebSRT
22:20:43 [JF]
and ak editor if he would be prepared to remove specific reference to WebSRT and instead express the ideas in a more abstract way
22:21:13 [Judy_DCA]
22:21:15 [frankolivier]
frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
22:21:16 [JF]
so that WebSRT could be one of the text formats, but others would be easily plug-in instead
22:21:19 [Judy_DCA]
zakim, unmute me
22:21:19 [Zakim]
sorry, Judy_DCA, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
22:21:40 [JF]
Sean: we could simply ask ian to do thi, and then see what his response is
22:22:02 [JF]
Judy" believes that we need to involve PHL into this conversation
22:22:08 [JF]
it may be a bit trickier than this
22:22:29 [JF]
fair amount of discussion surrounding document license issues
22:22:40 [JF]
so we need to ensure we are synched up with that dialog
22:22:51 [JF]
22:23:09 [JF]
Judy willing to take action item to see what is happening at W3C right now
22:23:47 [JF]
Sean: one approach is to work in the wiki, and have ian review that and then adopt
22:23:57 [JF]
using the wiki a safer route
22:24:03 [JF]
re: IP issues
22:25:15 [JF]
JF - ian will be on vacation soon
22:25:30 [JF]
Judy will investigate timing issues
22:25:48 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:25:48 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
22:26:49 [JF]
Janina: 2 possible approaches. start with Silvia's text and ask for bugs against it
22:27:22 [JF]
of prefer that if Ian takes out the specific WebSRT text 9and provide a list of where) then we can perhaps move more quickly
22:27:45 [JF]
Eric: sounds like we need to hear back from judy if there are any political or legal blockers
22:28:22 [JF]
ERic: if we revert back to the work that Silvia did, it will be a lot more work, whereas if we can get ian to work with us it will take much less time
22:28:54 [JF]
janina: so paht is to await Judy's report back on policy/legal concerns, after which we sent a request to ian
22:29:36 [JF]
janina: hope that we can get this rolling before next weeks call, with appropriate CC's on the note
22:29:47 [JF]
more TBD
22:30:07 [janina]
agenda+ prioritizing user reqs for user agent work
22:30:15 [JF]
(New Agenda item)
22:30:16 [janina]
zakim, take up item 9
22:30:16 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "prioritizing user reqs for user agent work" taken up [from janina]
22:30:41 [sean]
22:30:56 [JF]
Eric: wants to stress his concerns over prioritization of the technical requirements, as if we leave it to browsers to work out that list it will be a dis-jointed effort
22:31:06 [Judy]
ack si, ack ju
22:31:07 [JF]
Notes thta JF has started working on that
22:31:15 [janina]
ack sean
22:31:20 [JF]
ack JF
22:31:27 [Judy]
22:31:33 [JF]
Sean: perhaps add another column to the table
22:31:36 [janina]
22:31:37 [silvia]
22:31:50 [JF]
authors will want to meet WCAG, so have a column thta maps to WCAG a, aa, aaa
22:32:04 [Judy]
22:32:06 [JF]
so that we also have an idea of which issues impact on WCAG
22:32:22 [janina]
ack judy
22:32:23 [JF]
thta would help with a prioritization
22:32:25 [Judy_DCA]
22:32:58 [JF]
Judy: think that what Sean is proposing (tying to WCAG) is an interesting way of looking at it
22:33:10 [JF]
(notes that they are called conformance levels)
22:33:24 [JF]
this will also remove some hesitation as these have already been vetted
22:33:49 [JF]
understands the need to help guide the development process
22:35:09 [JF]
Judy: tying it to the substance of the WCAG criteria
22:35:42 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:35:42 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
22:35:57 [JF]
Sean volunteers to take a run at adding it to the list
22:37:57 [Judy]
22:38:10 [silvia]
22:38:15 [JF]
Eric: we need to ensure that the core reqs are consistent across all browsers, as this will encourage authors to actually use this stufff
22:39:12 [Judy]
22:40:08 [janina]
ack janina
22:40:12 [janina]
ack sil
22:40:31 [JF]
Seems that the attendees are in agreement that this general thrust is important, and that mapping to WCAG is a way forward
22:41:06 [JF]
Silvia: what we need to determine the actual technologies which is almost at a higher level
22:41:14 [JF]
silvia looking at 3 immeadiate needs
22:41:52 [JF]
inclusion of tracks
22:42:03 [JF]
interface to multi-track files
22:42:15 [janina]
q+ to ask silvia whether what has considered the use case where text descriptions exceed primary resource timeline
22:42:28 [JF]
ensure that we can do the navigation requirements
22:42:43 [JF]
(ie navigation coordination)
22:43:00 [JF]
when we figure these out, they will answer many of the questions
22:43:42 [JF]
we started with a bottom up list, now we need to start with a top down review of technologies, at which point we will reach a middle ground
22:44:10 [janina]
22:44:18 [JF]
thinks tracking Must/should.may as well as tracking WCAG A/AA/AAA is useful
22:44:44 [JF]
but wants to see a programic approach as well
22:45:21 [JF]
Janina: asking Silvia if WHATWG is understanding some of our more vexxing issues?
22:45:40 [JF]
silvia - they seem to be, but will need to be tested - they are moving in that direction, but it is too early to tell
22:46:10 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:46:10 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
22:47:06 [JF]
ACTIO: Sean to map WACG A, AA, and AAA against our checklist
22:47:11 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:47:11 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
22:47:26 [JF]
ACTION: Sean to map WACG A, AA, and AAA against our checklist
22:47:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-60 - Map WACG A, AA, and AAA against our checklist [on Sean Hayes - due 2010-09-22].
22:48:21 [JF]
22:49:06 [JF]
Eric: not necessary to call out difference between mobile and desktop
22:50:40 [JF]
not saying it will be easy work, but not overly concerned
22:51:25 [JF]
Silvia; audio processing on a mobile device is not really that much - concurs with eric, no real technical restrictions
22:52:17 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:52:17 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
22:52:21 [JF]
this will be a place where competition between browsers will be a good thing
22:52:22 [janina]
22:52:27 [janina]
ack janina
22:52:27 [Zakim]
janina, you wanted to ask silvia whether what has considered the use case where text descriptions exceed primary resource timeline
22:53:16 [JF]
zakim, take up item 7
22:53:16 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "next meeting" taken up [from janina]
22:53:26 [JF]
zakim, take up item 6
22:53:26 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Technical Requirements Prioritizations and Dependencies" taken up [from janina]
22:53:58 [JF]
thank you
22:54:01 [silvia]
scribenick: silvia
22:54:20 [silvia]
jf: there are still many holes, but we're making progress
22:54:51 [silvia]
… had a conversation with Mike Smith and asked the engineers there to provide input
22:55:02 [silvia]
… input about the different types of technologies that we can add
22:55:13 [silvia]
… also, I took a stab and the must/should/may column
22:56:11 [silvia]
… ppl with extensive knowledge on a11y requirements should chip in
22:56:35 [janina]
22:56:41 [janina]
22:56:51 [silvia]
… hopefully it will help Eric's concerns, and the WCAG work will add to that, too
22:56:55 [Judy]
Judy has joined #html-a11y
22:57:08 [silvia]
janina: can you take us through the ones that are mays?
22:57:12 [janina]
ack janina
22:57:44 [silvia]
jf: see
22:58:26 [silvia]
… DV-3,5,6,7,8,10,11,14 are shoulds
22:58:38 [silvia]
… DV-9,13 are mays
22:59:18 [silvia]
janina: I don't think you can legally make DV-14 a should :-)
23:00:09 [Zakim]
23:00:38 [silvia]
jf: … TVD-2 cnt, TVD-3, TVD-4 are shoulds
23:01:43 [silvia]
janina: is this taking us towards where we should go?
23:01:57 [silvia]
… also how will we resolve conflict within the group here on opinions on this?
23:02:19 [silvia]
kenny: I don't have write access to the page actually
23:02:34 [silvia]
michaelc: fixing it now
23:02:53 [JF]
ACTION: Michael Cooper to grant Kenny Johar to write ability to the wiki (specifically at
23:02:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-61 - Cooper to grant Kenny Johar to write ability to the wiki (specifically at [on Michael Cooper - due 2010-09-22].
23:03:14 [Zakim]
23:03:14 [silvia]
kenny: I can email my input to the must/should/may judgements
23:03:53 [janina]
23:04:02 [Zakim]
23:04:06 [silvia]
jf: I was using my gut feel rather than WCAG to judge this
23:04:32 [silvia]
… I'm also considering engineering needs in this
23:04:43 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
23:04:43 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
23:04:45 [Zakim]
23:05:01 [silvia]
… I'll wait for kenny's email and take a crack at the system requirements, too
23:05:28 [silvia]
… could other make a review, too, and highlight areas that are contentious
23:06:09 [silvia]
eric: the right way to do this would be with email
23:06:20 [silvia]
janina+silvia: I think so, too
23:06:33 [silvia]
jf: we still have some holes on the technologies
23:06:35 [Zakim]
23:07:55 [silvia]
silvia: I will fix the holes in the technologies
23:07:58 [JF]
Silvia will continue working on the technology requirements
23:08:16 [silvia]
janina: last week we agreed that Kenny would do the structural navigation technologies
23:08:24 [silvia]
silvia: no problem
23:09:25 [silvia]
janina: in summary, we should have a complete document by next week
23:09:27 [JF]
Want to ensure that the technology column is done in abstract terms, and to date outisde assitance has been technology specific (Use SMIL, Real_Audio, etc.)
23:09:36 [silvia]
… and we should have a discussion on email with the prioritisation
23:10:22 [silvia]
jf: can we please make sure to have [media] prefixed in the email and can we make sure to have an email per item, so we can have a focused discussion
23:10:30 [silvia]
janina: ok, though that may lead to a lot of threads
23:10:55 [silvia]
… so have in your email e.g. [media] DV-12 - comment
23:10:59 [JF]
Janina: believes we are done
23:11:01 [silvia]
… as the topic
23:11:03 [JF]
any further question s?
23:11:09 [silvia]
scribe: JF
23:11:19 [JF]
janina, wrapping up - thanks to all
23:11:43 [Zakim]
23:11:45 [Zakim]
23:11:49 [JF]
rrsagent, stop log
23:11:49 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', JF. Try /msg RRSAgent help
23:11:52 [Zakim]
23:11:54 [Zakim]
23:11:56 [Zakim]
23:11:56 [Zakim]
23:12:08 [JF]
rrsagent, stop log
23:12:08 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', JF. Try /msg RRSAgent help
23:12:15 [JF]
rrsagent, stop logging
23:12:15 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop logging', JF. Try /msg RRSAgent help
23:12:36 [JF]
rrsagent, create minutes
23:12:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JF
23:13:21 [JF]
rrsagent, please part
23:13:21 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
23:13:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Sean to map WACG A, AA, and AAA against our checklist [1]
23:13:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
23:13:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael Cooper to grant Kenny Johar to write ability to the wiki (specifically at [2]
23:13:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in