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15:25:04 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:25:04 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
15:25:08 <glazou> make logs public
15:25:14 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:46:11 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
15:50:54 <glazou> Zakim, code?
15:50:54 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), glazou
15:51:08 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:51:14 <glazou> aaah
15:51:15 <Zakim> +glazou
15:59:04 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
15:59:49 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_ has joined #css
16:00:04 <Zakim> +bradk
16:00:10 <Zakim> -glazou
16:00:12 <Zakim> +glazou
16:00:42 <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aaaa
16:00:47 <TabAtkins_> zakim, aaaa is me
16:00:47 <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
16:00:54 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:01:18 <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
16:01:21 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:01:43 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:02:17 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:02:19 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:02:19 <jdaggett> jdaggett has joined #css
16:02:29 <glazou> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:02:30 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:02:40 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:02:55 <jdaggett> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:02:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, bradk, TabAtkins_, arronei, [Microsoft], [Mozilla], fantasai, SteveZ
16:03:00 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:03:22 <glazou> member:Zakim, [Microsoft] has arronei
16:03:38 <Zakim> +[plinss]
16:03:38 <jdaggett> so no one is talking...?
16:03:39 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:03:42 <glazou> Zakim, [Microsoft] has arronei
16:03:50 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:04:03 <glazou> jdaggett: we wait a few more minutes
16:04:04 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:04:21 <Zakim> +smfr
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16:05:25 <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
16:05:40 <TabAtkins_> [quote="squareroot"]312 centimeters is 122.834646... and your program is casting this fraction ('double') into an integer. Whenever you cast a double into an integer, it rounds down. So 122.83 [i]should[/i] be rounded up to 123 inches (which happens to be 3yd, 1ft, 3in) but is instead rounded down to 122 (3yd, 1ft, 2in). I've never actually written an C, so I don't know what it uses for rounding, but you should be doing something like inches = round(centim
16:05:47 <TabAtkins_> EDIT: Okay, looks like you'll want to #include <math.h>, and then just write... inches = round(centimeters/CENT_PER_INCH). Just like I guessed before. :-P[/quote]
16:05:50 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:05:51 <TabAtkins_> Sorry it took so long, but thanks! We haven't actually covered the math preprocessor thing, but seeing as her way didn't work, too bad if she complains.
16:05:52 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
16:05:54 <TabAtkins_> Holy crap.  Sorry.  Paste error.
16:06:26 <TabAtkins_> glazou: We need a wiki page for agenda items during TPAC.
16:06:33 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Elika, can you set up a wiki page?
16:06:35 <TabAtkins_> plinss_: Already done.
16:06:36 <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2010
16:06:54 <TabAtkins_> glazou: CSS 2.1 TestSuite.  Deadline was Sep 15, where are we?
16:07:05 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I'm planning to build the testsuite and publish it later today.
16:07:16 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: We'll call this one RC1.
16:07:26 <Zakim> +??P39
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16:07:36 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:07:51 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Issue 101, Tab sent an email that he wasn't ready.
16:08:02 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I'll have it before next call.  I can do it by Friday.
16:08:10 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Issue 154 is on Arron and John.
16:08:13 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-154
16:08:32 <TabAtkins_> arronei: 154 I've submitted a few images.  I think they're correct, though Elika's called out a few things.  I'll see today if they need any altering.
16:08:38 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #css
16:08:47 <TabAtkins_> arronei: We may not define all the terms that I use, but we use them extensively in the spec.
16:08:56 <TabAtkins_> arronei: We should probably define them.
16:09:28 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Action on everyone - review the images for 154.
16:09:41 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Next issue is 173, on Elika.
16:09:41 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-173
16:10:17 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: There's a proposal on the list that I sent last night.
16:10:19 <Zakim> +[Mozilla.a]
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16:10:47 <TabAtkins_> glazou: I think the first part is okay.  We need to decide on the second part.
16:10:56 <dbaron> what's the url?
16:11:00 <TabAtkins_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0440.html
16:11:15 <TabAtkins_> glazou: [lists the options for the second part from the email]
16:12:15 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I don't think either choice will end up doing much of anything anyway; if anyone's putting a linebreak in generated content they need to escape them anyway, and the spec uses \A all over th eplace for it.
16:12:38 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: So I don't think this is a compat or author issue, so we should just choose whichever option is easier for implementors.
16:13:31 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I don't have a favored opinion.
16:13:44 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I think we handle our generated content the same as DOM text, generally.
16:13:53 <TabAtkins_> arronei: Basically the same in IE.
16:14:08 <dbaron> we could send it through a different path if we had to first, but preferable not to.
16:14:12 <TabAtkins_> glazou: So option B should match the current practice?
16:14:49 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: This does mean that it's impossible to represent a carriage return in a CSS document.
16:15:10 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I doubt that's important for anyone ever, so it's okay.
16:15:30 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-197
16:15:33 <Zakim> -??P39
16:15:39 <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: For issue 173, accept part 1, accept option b for part 2.
16:16:24 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-159
16:16:52 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I haven't had time to process the changes in this draft.
16:17:33 <bradk> is that wind or heavy breathing?
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16:17:57 <TabAtkins_> glazou: I don't want to hold this forever, so please have review ready for next week.
16:18:32 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0191.html
16:20:56 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: There was discussion during the last telcon about the issue that Boris raised with the definition, where a runin is clearing one way and the block it runs into is clearing another way.
16:21:12 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I posted a testcase to IRC and Aaron looked at it.
16:21:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:23:17 <TabAtkins_> glazou: So what needs to be done?
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16:23:41 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-198
16:23:56 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: We need a new proposal to address Boris' issue.  I can do that; we have all the info we need for it.
16:24:00 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:24:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, bradk, TabAtkins_, arronei, [Mozilla], fantasai, SteveZ, [plinss], smfr, [Microsoft], [Microsoft.a], dbaron, howcome
16:24:15 <TabAtkins_> ACTION Tab: Post updated proposal to the list.
16:24:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-266 - Post updated proposal to the list. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2010-09-22].
16:24:27 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-199
16:25:08 <TabAtkins_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0433.html
16:25:30 <TabAtkins_> Proposal I sent yesterday.  I don't think it actually addresses the issue properly, though, so there are some options in the email for better solutions.
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16:27:01 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:27:53 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I just need someone to sanitycheck this for me.
16:28:06 <Zakim> +SteveZ
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16:29:02 <TabAtkins_> ACTION dbaron: Sanity-check the issue 199 proposal.
16:29:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-267 - Sanity-check the issue 199 proposal. [on David Baron - due 2010-09-22].
16:29:07 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-198
16:29:37 <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/635
16:29:53 <fantasai> arronei - what were the test results for that?
16:30:38 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Steve, you said during the meeting that there was a problem, but you couldn't remember what it was.
16:31:28 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-203
16:32:10 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: This needs layout people to look at this.
16:32:27 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: But elika, arronei, and arronei's coworker all looked at this together and thought it was probably good.
16:32:51 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I believe the change is fine with me, too.
16:33:16 <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's change for issue 203.
16:33:43 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0233.html
16:33:53 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Agenda item 3, what should we do with min()/max()?
16:34:07 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: All of the issues I found with min/max are issues with mixing % and lengths.
16:34:30 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: There were two ways to fix them - one was to remove min/max entirely, and the other was to not allow % in min.
16:34:54 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: There are cases where we reverse percentages for intrinsic widths.
16:35:18 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: So if you have "width:100px, margin-right:50%", its container is 200px to satisfy the conditions.
16:35:40 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: There's no sensical way to do that with min/max, because there are likely multiple solutions and it's difficult to distinguish between them.
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16:35:49 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: There were other issues that I'd have to dig up.
16:36:26 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I say we do what fantasai suggests and mark it as at-risk.
16:37:04 <TabAtkins_> szilles: That means we'd have to drop the feature, though.  We wouldn't have the choice to just drop % from the feature.
16:37:11 <TabAtkins_> howcome: We can just list both.
16:37:59 <TabAtkins_> howcome: Also you wanted to move this to Last Call, right?
16:38:07 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Yeah.
16:38:24 <TabAtkins_> howcome: And you're willing to be co-editor?
16:38:27 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Sure.
16:38:39 <TabAtkins_> howcome: I think the two of us should review it through.
16:38:44 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Agreed.
16:38:56 <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Mark min/max as at-risk, and mark % in min/max as at-risk.
16:39:51 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0235.html
16:39:52 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Topic, new list-style-types.
16:40:51 <glazou> +1 !!!
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16:46:14 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I've taken over the list module.  It extends the number of style types from 6 or 7 to around 100, but it still ends up still missing a number of minority languages.
16:46:32 <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/AANLkTimg9ULp9vS212+G4f5-Oav63p=Eu+EadAzQmSyk@mail.gmail.com
16:47:44 <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0381.html
16:47:59 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Rather than just forever extending the module with new types and still missing things, I've proposed that we can address all but 1 of the style-types with a set of 7 algorithms, which we can then expose to the user so they can create their own list-styles.
16:48:25 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I don't think you can get Hebrew simply like that.
16:48:41 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:48:42 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Actually, it's fairlyu simple to do.  I have it written down already.
16:48:49 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Including the forbidden words and such?
16:49:34 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Yes to the 16/17 thing.  The other forbidden words aren't forbidden in a list context, according to some hebrew i18n people at google.
16:49:58 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Is everyone okay with the 10/15 deadline for implementation reports?
16:50:06 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Google should be cool with that.
16:50:20 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Not sure if we'll be able to.  It's an awful lot of work.
16:50:44 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Can you be more specific?
16:51:08 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: It's a question of resources at Mozilla, I think David said before.
16:52:10 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I think that Tab and I can possibly help if we can dig up HP's system and ask for volunteers to help with the report, because then it's easy for one person to submit a small number of results.
16:52:29 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: So it sounds like we can get an impl report from Google.  Maybe from Moz.  What about Opera?
16:52:34 <TabAtkins_> howcome: I can't commit to a date.
16:52:46 <bradk> What about Apple?
16:53:09 <smfr> i imagine chrome's results would be equivalent to apple's (both webkit)
16:53:24 <TabAtkins_> glazou: I'm a bit puzzled, because this is the last effort of a long line.  Everything depends on this last effort.
16:53:35 <bradk> I thought there was some forking between Safari and Chrome
16:53:44 <TabAtkins_> glazou: All the browser vendors are interested in seeing CSS2.1 become a Rec, but it *cannot* happen without this effort.
16:53:51 <smfr> bradk: very little and the css/layout level
16:53:53 <arronei> Actually Chrome and Safari have different results. If Apple can also submit an implementaiton report that would be nice.
16:54:11 <TabAtkins_> glazou: I understand the resource issues, but it's very important we get this.  It would be a very bad signal if we are late with CSS2.1 just because of impl reports.
16:54:42 <smfr> arronei: probably due to different snapshots of the webkit code
16:54:45 <TabAtkins_> JohnJansen: At the FtF, Moz said it would be okay to do impl reports 30 days after test suite completion.
16:54:52 <Zakim> -bradk
16:54:58 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I'm not sure those two discussions were related.
16:55:28 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: So should we move the date or what?  It sounds like we had agreement on the date, but apparently only 2 browsers are going to make it.
16:55:44 <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I think we should leave the date as the target, and I'll talk with Tab after the call to see what we can do.
16:56:04 <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Also I think that looking at an impl report will provide feedback on the test suite.
16:56:09 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Right, but we need impl report first.
16:56:24 <TabAtkins_> glazou: I'd like to remind everyone that if we shift a lot, we'll be in very bad shape in the w3c.
16:56:41 <TabAtkins_> glazou: We publicly said that the impl reports will be ready on the 15 of oct.  w3c staff read it.
16:56:57 <TabAtkins_> glazou: So if we shift, we cannot shift a lot.  We still need to be in PR before the end of the year.
16:57:08 <TabAtkins_> glazou: Listening to what david said, I'm scared if it's still possible.
16:57:16 <Zakim> -jdaggett
16:57:34 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: At TPAC we shouldn't be worrying about 2.1, we should be taking it to PR.  I'm scared that it won't happen now.
16:57:53 <TabAtkins_> glazou: So let's keep the timing right now, and see what Tab and Elika can produce by next week.
16:58:07 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
16:58:07 <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: And bring this up first thing next call.
16:58:10 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:58:11 <Zakim> -arronei
16:58:11 <Zakim> -smfr
16:58:12 <Zakim> -howcome
16:58:13 <Zakim> -glazou
16:58:37 <Zakim> -dbaron
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16:59:46 <dbaron> Is it OK to test a beta for the implementation report?
16:59:52 <glazou> yes
17:00:14 <glazou> as soon as it's publically available
17:00:20 <glazou> and it is
17:01:03 <fantasai> tabatkins: datafile - http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20100815/testinfo.data
17:01:17 <fantasai> harness info: http://wiki.csswg.org/test/harness
17:03:37 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:03:38 <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
17:03:42 <Zakim> -[plinss]
17:03:43 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:03:45 <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, bradk, +1.650.214.aaaa, TabAtkins_, arronei, fantasai, sylvaing, SteveZ, [plinss], smfr, [Microsoft], dbaron, howcome, jdaggett
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17:53:27 <smfr> has anyone managed to build the 2.1 test suite recently?
17:53:45 <smfr> make VERSION=css2_1 gives:
17:53:45 <smfr> cp: ERROR/src: No such file or directory
17:55:00 <jgraham> I think gsnedders was complaining about some problem with the build script at some point
17:55:05 <jgraham> recently
17:55:27 <smfr> i'm also curious about the state of the various harnesses
18:04:05 <gsnedders> smfr: CSS 2.1 does not build currently. What makefile are you running anyway?
18:04:35 <smfr> build-test/Makefile
18:04:47 <smfr> from http://test.csswg.org/svn/build-test
18:07:44 <gsnedders> smfr: Okay, AFAIK the normal way to build CSS 2.1 nowadays is perl tools/pub-css21.pl
18:08:22 <smfr> gsnedders: ok, then maybe the READMEs should be udpated
18:08:29 <gsnedders> I could just be wrong :
18:08:31 <gsnedders> * :)
18:08:47 <smfr> gsnedders: also, http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/harness describes the "old" system without saying what the new one is
18:08:51 <smfr> it's all such a mess
18:08:56 <gsnedders> Yeah :(
18:09:11 <gsnedders> The new build system is currently broken, fantasai said she'd fix it yesterday/today
18:09:25 <smfr> this doesn't help with getting implementation reports out
18:09:39 <gsnedders> Indeed
18:24:37 <dbaron> Speaking of which, is there a good way to find out if the tests that I contributed have been included in the test suite or not?
18:25:35 <gsnedders> dbaron: As of whenever the WG decided it, all submitted tests are in, whether reviewed or not
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18:27:22 <dbaron> so I contributed a test for 10.3.3, for example, and I don't see it in the previous release of the test suite.
18:27:29 <dbaron> Can I tell if it's going to be in the one that happens today?
18:29:09 <gsnedders> dbaron: If it's in /contributors/dbaron/submitted/css2.1 or /approved/css2.1/src it should be in, I think
18:31:09 <dbaron> it's in /contributors/mozilla/incoming/css2.1/, looks like
18:31:32 <gsnedders> Then it's not where it should be if it's actually been submitted to the testsuite
18:31:41 <gsnedders> (which is s/incoming/submitted/)
18:31:43 <dbaron> should I move it?
18:31:48 <gsnedders> dbaron: Go ahead
18:34:27 <dbaron> fantasai, should I do that?
18:35:58 <dbaron> it looks like a bunch of the ones in incoming were copied to submitted
18:36:00 <dbaron> but not all of them
18:36:19 <dbaron> and I'm not sure how I can tell which
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20:58:58 <fantasai> dbaron: I renamed a lot of the tests
20:59:06 <fantasai> dbaron: I have a patch against Mozilla trunk for that
20:59:23 <dbaron> fantasai, so are there a lot of tests in two different locations in the svn repo?
20:59:37 <fantasai> dbaron: In some cases I might have not included the test due to one already being in the test suite for the same exact thing
20:59:40 <fantasai> dbaron: Shouldn't be
21:00:02 <fantasai> dbaron: I copied over the 2.1 tests into submitted/ from hg trunk
21:00:10 <fantasai> dbaron: they weren't copied over from incoming
21:00:18 <fantasai> dbaron: I studied your scripts for that
21:00:22 <fantasai> dbaron: so it should be the same thing
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23:45:36 <fantasai> smfr: Actually, it does say what the new one is. You just skimmed past the paragraph that said it.
23:45:53 <fantasai> smfr: I deleted the old instructions and have replaced them with more details on the new one.
23:46:01 <smfr> fantasai: excellent, thanks
23:46:06 <fantasai> smfr: I haven't tested the system yet, there might be some bugs with building currently
23:46:14 <smfr> fantasai: so what's the recommended way to actually run the tests?
23:46:28 <smfr> should I make them myself?
23:46:36 <smfr> also, which, if any test harness is working?
23:46:36 <fantasai> smfr: No, just wait until tomorrow. :)
23:46:43 <fantasai> smfr: I should have a build out by then
23:46:49 <fantasai> smfr: I don't think any of the test harnesses are working
23:47:03 <fantasai> smfr: tabatkins is assigned to setting one of them up
23:47:07 <smfr> ok
23:47:21 <smfr> i'm unlikely to run the tests without one; just too much work
23:47:31 <fantasai> smfr: understandable
23:47:40 <smfr> even pass/fail buttons and some local storage would be better than nothing
23:48:04 <fantasai> smfr: If Tab can get the harness to work, we can do better than that :)
23:48:07 <smfr> fantasai: ideally we'd have some public website, and we could crowdsource this
23:48:23 <fantasai> smfr: That's the idea behind the current harness
23:48:25 <smfr> use mechanical turk :)
23:48:54 <fantasai> smfr: it records pass/fail results, and can be set to serve up tests with the least number of results recorded
23:49:12 <smfr> fantasai: stores pass/fail per user agent?
23:49:16 <fantasai> smfr: I'm hoping Tab can figure out how to set it up
23:49:20 <fantasai> smfr: yes, by UA string
23:49:32 <smfr> then there's the question of what to test. latest safari release, or webkit nightly? mac or windows?
23:49:45 <fantasai> smfr: That I don't know. Up to you.
23:49:53 <fantasai> smfr: I think we do allow nightlies to qualify