IRC log of rif on 2010-09-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:52:13 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:52:13 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/14-rif-irc
14:52:20 [csma]
Zakim, this will be RIF
14:52:20 [Zakim]
ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:52:29 [csma]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:52:48 [csma]
Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
14:53:17 [csma]
Regrets: MikeDean, GaryHallmark
14:53:35 [csma]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Sep/0010.html
14:54:03 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:54:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/14-rif-minutes.html csma
14:54:36 [csma]
zakim, clear agenda
14:54:36 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:54:42 [csma]
item+ Admin
14:54:51 [csma]
agendum+ Admin
14:54:59 [csma]
agendum+ Liaisons
14:55:05 [csma]
agendum+ Actions review
14:55:23 [csma]
agendum+ RIF Primer
14:55:34 [csma]
agendum+ RIF-XML data
14:55:44 [csma]
agendum+ RIF in RDF
14:55:49 [csma]
agendum+ UCR
14:56:09 [csma]
agendum+ Test Cases
14:56:25 [csma]
agendum+ AOB (next meeting: 21 Sept?)
14:59:06 [AxelPolleres]
I am sorry, but I can't attend today... as for RIF in RDF, I have drafted some text on the semantics of RIF-in-RDF which works for me: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_In_RDF
14:59:11 [AxelPolleres]
sections 7 and 8
14:59:38 [csma]
Hi Axel,
14:59:54 [csma]
Can you send that text to the public mailing list, please?
15:00:33 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:01:06 [AxelPolleres]
I see that Dave sent a review already.
15:01:12 [AxelPolleres]
I have to look into this.
15:01:16 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:19 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #RIF
15:01:25 [Leora]
Leora has joined #rif
15:01:33 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/mid/1284405398.2075.0.camel@dave-desktop
15:01:34 [Zakim]
+??P14
15:01:35 [csma]
Problems with Zakim France number
15:01:43 [csma]
:-(
15:01:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.312.aaaa
15:02:12 [Leora]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:02:30 [Zakim]
+Leora; got it
15:02:44 [Zakim]
+??P35
15:02:59 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
15:03:08 [csma]
Zakim GB does not seem to work, either :-(
15:03:28 [Leora]
is anyone talking? I can't hear a thing.
15:03:36 [StellaMitchell]
I hear typing
15:03:58 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:04:15 [Leora]
Oh, that's probably me you hear.
15:04:20 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:04:20 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:04:23 [Leora]
I can't figure out how to mute.
15:04:26 [Zakim]
+ +33.1.49.08.aabb
15:04:27 [Leora]
zakim, please mute me
15:04:29 [Zakim]
Leora should now be muted
15:04:36 [Leora]
okay, figured it out. ;)
15:04:41 [csma]
zakim, aabb is me
15:04:41 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:04:50 [Leora]
Stella, do you still hear me typing?
15:04:52 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, ??p35 is me
15:04:52 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:04:55 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DaveReynolds, Leora (muted), StellaMitchell, Harold, csma
15:05:20 [AxelPolleres]
Dave, basically, I still think/hope that the extraction of encoded rulesets is possible, essentially, it seems that you can extract everything from "below" a focus-node that has some RIF properties.
15:05:26 [csma]
Scribe: Dave Reynolds
15:05:36 [csma]
scribenick: DaveReynolds
15:05:42 [DaveReynolds]
Axel - disagree but can't scribe and discuss at same time :)
15:06:01 [AxelPolleres]
likely though, we'd need to define what is a well-formed RIF/RDF document, that allows such exttraction... ok, let's take this to email
15:06:50 [csma]
Scribe: Harold Boley
15:06:56 [Leora]
csma, did you ask me something?
15:06:59 [Leora]
I couldn't hear
15:07:00 [csma]
Scribenick: Harold
15:07:05 [Leora]
I guess not.
15:07:05 [csma]
next item
15:07:09 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has joined #rif
15:07:25 [csma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Sep/att-0001/24-rif-minutes.html
15:07:39 [csma]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes of Aug 24 telecon
15:08:04 [StellaMitchell]
+1
15:08:06 [csma]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes of Aug 24 telecon
15:08:27 [csma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Sep/att-0009/rif-mins-7-Sept-2010.html
15:08:41 [csma]
PROPOSED: Approve the minutes of Sept 7 telecon
15:08:50 [StellaMitchell]
+1
15:08:54 [Leora]
+1
15:08:56 [csma]
RESOLVED: Approve the minutes of Sept 7 telecon
15:09:15 [csma]
next item
15:09:24 [Leora]
zakim, please unmute me
15:09:24 [Zakim]
Leora should no longer be muted
15:09:52 [csma]
next item
15:10:02 [csma]
zakim, close agendum 2
15:10:02 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Liaisons, closed
15:10:03 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:10:04 [Zakim]
3. Actions review [from csma]
15:10:10 [csma]
next item
15:11:57 [StellaMitchell]
close action-1050
15:11:57 [trackbot]
Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
15:13:06 [csma]
Zakim, this is rif
15:13:06 [Zakim]
csma, this was already SW_RIF()11:00AM
15:13:07 [Zakim]
ok, csma; that matches SW_RIF()11:00AM
15:13:18 [csma]
close ACTION-1050
15:13:18 [trackbot]
ACTION-1050 Remove RIF syntax from UCR closed
15:13:58 [StellaMitchell]
close action-1049
15:13:58 [trackbot]
Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
15:15:14 [csma]
next item
15:15:35 [Harold]
Leora: Ready for review.
15:16:06 [Harold]
... Last thing is compatibility section: RDF, OWL 2.
15:16:30 [ChrisW]
I just finished updating the Test Cases section of PRimer
15:18:22 [Harold]
Christian: Should we add compatibility with XML? As section 7.3?
15:18:43 [Harold]
Leora: I could do it.
15:19:05 [Leora]
I can do a short paragraph on compatibility with XML.
15:19:17 [Leora]
I haven't yet read your document, Christian.
15:19:25 [Leora]
So honestly, this would be a short, brief document.
15:19:36 [Leora]
If there is no example, it would be helpful to get an example.
15:19:51 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:19:59 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temproarily me
15:19:59 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'ibm is temproarily me', ChrisW
15:20:05 [Harold]
Christian: Reviewers are Gary and Sandro.
15:20:08 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:20:08 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:20:24 [Leora]
s/short, brief document/short, brief paragraph
15:21:24 [Harold]
Christian: Will ask Gary and Sandro to read it by next week.
15:21:25 [StellaMitchell]
s/brief document/brief paragraph/
15:21:34 [csma]
action: csma to send email to Gary and sandro re reviewing Primer
15:21:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1052 - Send email to Gary and sandro re reviewing Primer [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-09-21].
15:21:49 [csma]
next ietm
15:21:54 [csma]
next item
15:22:51 [csma]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/XML-Data_alt
15:23:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.844.aacc
15:23:21 [Harold]
Christian: Based on discussion last week, redrafted the document, keeping the semantics but going back to XPath syntax.
15:23:58 [Harold]
... Much shortened the document.
15:24:09 [Harold]
... Not quite finished.
15:24:25 [Leora]
zakim, please mute me
15:24:25 [Zakim]
Leora should now be muted
15:24:36 [Harold]
... Semantic defined for any XPath expression.
15:25:34 [Harold]
... Sometimes only small subset used.
15:26:19 [Leora]
Okay - -- so I should read the doc linked above?
15:26:38 [Harold]
Christian: Yes.
15:26:46 [Leora]
Christian, sorry --- I just didn't really hear you. Phone is fuzzy.
15:27:50 [Harold]
Christian: Will add appendices.
15:28:32 [Harold]
... Will ask Michael if he can review it.
15:29:25 [Harold]
Dave: References to XPath specs might be better than copying snippets.
15:29:39 [Harold]
... Otherwise there may be a maintenance issue.
15:30:12 [Harold]
Christian: Copies are just non-normative.
15:30:33 [Harold]
Dave: If not too many, then that's fair.
15:31:06 [Harold]
Christian: Just terms that are used in several places such as "What is a sequence?".
15:32:28 [Harold]
Sandro: What does the XML render in Presentation Syntax?
15:33:13 [Harold]
s/What/How/
15:33:19 [csma]
<Const type=...>child::schema-element(ex:Account)</Const>
15:39:30 [csma]
"ex:Account"
15:40:36 [csma]
?x["child::schema-element(ex:Account)"->value]
15:40:36 [Harold]
***Lengthy Christian/Sandro discussion about PS/XML syntaxes***
15:42:09 [csma]
For all the element nodes e ∈ E, Itruth(Iframe(IDM(e))(IC("expr"^^xs:string), RIFValue(e, expr))) = t (true)
15:42:44 [sandro]
proposed test case: someone assert some frames with xpath-syntax slot names.
15:43:58 [csma]
next item
15:44:30 [Harold]
Christian/Sandro: Have two reviews.
15:44:51 [Harold]
Dave: Small bug in the table.
15:45:18 [sandro]
DaveReynolds: small bug in table; main issue is with usedWithProfile -- defn in there requires you to be able to subtract a rif ruleset out of an RDF graph
15:45:43 [Harold]
... Substantial comments: Semantics currently requires to 'subtract' rule sets.
15:45:45 [sandro]
DaveReynolds: an algo for doing that subtraction isn't provided, and I don't think it's possible.
15:46:18 [csma]
Axel, are you here?
15:46:24 [Harold]
... Suggest to change semantics to omit subtraction.
15:46:27 [csma]
q?
15:47:10 [Harold]
Sandro: Axel was interested in subtraction, having a use case for it.
15:47:49 [Harold]
... Avoid 'pollution' by unnecessary rules.
15:48:13 [Harold]
... But one could live them, just querying the rest.
15:49:30 [Harold]
Dave: Transform rules with rules. Secure subtraction.
15:49:45 [csma]
s/live/leave/
15:50:06 [Harold]
Sandro: Dave's proposal is good.
15:50:11 [sandro]
sandro: I think DaveReynolds's proposal to just remove the usedWithProfile triple is good.
15:51:20 [Leora]
zakim, please unmute me
15:51:20 [Zakim]
Leora should no longer be muted
15:51:27 [ChrisW]
Leora, I don't think the using dataypes example works
15:51:33 [csma]
q?
15:51:37 [Harold]
Sandro: Leora asks for more examples.
15:51:55 [Harold]
... Will do that, too, once back from vacation.
15:52:13 [ChrisW]
in particular the "at least 5 years ago" constraint looks to me like "after the year 5"
15:52:37 [Harold]
Leora: Examples would help with how mapping is done and more clear.
15:52:43 [Leora]
very likely, Chris.
15:53:07 [Harold]
Sandro: Currently one big example (in appendix).
15:53:22 [Leora]
Chris, I actually had a question about the representation of years.
15:53:38 [Harold]
... The document was not meant to be terribly tutorial.
15:54:21 [ChrisW]
ok
15:54:30 [Harold]
Leora: Little more than Hello World example in intro.
15:54:31 [Leora]
Chris, let me revisit the examples.
15:54:45 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda?
15:54:45 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:54:47 [Zakim]
6. RIF in RDF [from csma]
15:54:47 [Zakim]
7. UCR [from csma]
15:54:49 [Zakim]
8. Test Cases [from csma]
15:54:50 [Zakim]
9. AOB (next meeting: 21 Sept?) [from csma]
15:54:51 [ChrisW]
next item
15:55:08 [Leora]
And apologies for talking about both the primer and rif in rdf
15:55:16 [Leora]
at the same time
15:55:53 [Harold]
Chris: Document is good now.
15:56:56 [Harold]
Leora: UC 4.4
15:57:35 [Zakim]
-csma
15:58:28 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #rif
16:00:48 [Zakim]
+??P27
16:01:09 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is talking?
16:01:20 [Zakim]
ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P27 (30%), Leora (19%)
16:01:34 [ChrisW]
zakim, drop ??P27
16:01:34 [Zakim]
??P27 is being disconnected
16:01:36 [Zakim]
-??P27
16:02:56 [Zakim]
+??P39
16:03:27 [AdrianP]
Zakim, ??P39 is me
16:03:27 [Zakim]
+AdrianP; got it
16:03:41 [Harold]
***Lengthy Chris/Leora discussion about modal logic***
16:04:31 [AdrianP]
unfortunately I have bad WLAN quality
16:04:35 [Harold]
Chris: Swap two sections, so shorter one goes earlier.
16:04:58 [ChrisW]
FORALL ?x AND (encoding(?x) believes(Leora,ugly(?x)))
16:05:44 [Harold]
Leora: Will fix things in next 24 hours.
16:05:58 [Leora]
Harold, that was a lengthy discussion about to what extent sentences that would ordinarily be represented in modal logic, or at least, directly in fol using possible-worlds semantics
16:06:17 [Zakim]
-AdrianP
16:06:46 [Leora]
but which could possibly be represented, in a kludgey way in BLD.
16:06:52 [Harold]
s/two sections/two sections (4 and 5)/
16:06:54 [ChrisW]
next item
16:06:59 [Leora]
Chris, your FOL formula is false.
16:07:11 [Leora]
Not to mention that it mentions belief, explicitly!
16:07:18 [Zakim]
+??P24
16:07:22 [Harold]
Chris: Reviewed UCR, need one more.
16:07:37 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:38 [AdrianP]
Zakim, ??P24 is me
16:07:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DaveReynolds, Leora, StellaMitchell, Harold, ChrisW, +1.425.844.aacc, ??P24
16:07:43 [Zakim]
+AdrianP; got it
16:07:50 [StellaMitchell]
I can review UCR
16:08:04 [ChrisW]
action: Stella to review UCR
16:08:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1053 - Review UCR [on Stella Mitchell - due 2010-09-21].
16:12:59 [StellaMitchell]
one more left to apprive
16:14:24 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modeling_Brain_Anatomy
16:14:39 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: approve Modeling Brain Anatomy
16:14:43 [AdrianP]
+1 for the test case
16:14:53 [ChrisW]
+1
16:14:53 [DaveReynolds]
+1
16:14:54 [Leora]
+1
16:15:08 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: approve Modeling Brain Anatomy
16:15:37 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css
16:19:07 [ChrisW]
meet again in 1 week
16:19:21 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:19:21 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.703.312.aaaa, Leora, DaveReynolds, Harold, +33.1.49.08.aabb, csma, StellaMitchell, ChrisW, +1.425.844.aacc, AdrianP
16:19:26 [Zakim]
-StellaMitchell
16:19:29 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:19:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/14-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:19:32 [Zakim]
-DaveReynolds
16:19:33 [Zakim]
-Leora
16:19:41 [Zakim]
-AdrianP
16:19:47 [AdrianP]
bye
16:19:51 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:21:28 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
16:21:30 [Zakim]
- +1.425.844.aacc
16:21:32 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:21:34 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.703.312.aaaa, Leora, DaveReynolds, Harold, +33.1.49.08.aabb, csma, StellaMitchell, ChrisW, +1.425.844.aacc, AdrianP