IRC log of a11y-bugs on 2010-09-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:05:40 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #a11y-bugs
15:05:40 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:06:05 [kliehm]
rtsagent, set logs world-visible
15:06:12 [kliehm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
15:06:20 [MichaelC]
zakim, this is 2119
15:06:20 [Zakim]
MichaelC, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 2119".
15:06:25 [MichaelC]
zakim, this will be 2119
15:06:25 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM scheduled to start 6 minutes ago
15:06:27 [kliehm]
s/rtsagent, set logs world-visible//
15:07:08 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM has now started
15:07:16 [Zakim]
+ +49.179.103.aaaa
15:07:35 [Zakim]
15:09:19 [MichaelC]
15:10:27 [MichaelC]
Marco, unfortunately the UK and France numbers only accept 2 connections each at a given time. If someone else has taken the slots, nobody else can use them.
15:10:42 [MichaelC]
They keep saying they're going to fix that but I haven't heard about any progress.
15:11:12 [Marco_Ranon]
Thanks Michael. I know. I can't dial the US number from the office though
15:11:24 [Marco_Ranon]
Is it OK if I stay on IRC only?
15:12:06 [MichaelC]
Can you use Skype?
15:12:22 [Marco_Ranon]
It's blocked.
15:12:25 [MichaelC]
i.e., if we switch to that instead of Zakim.
15:12:26 [MichaelC]
15:12:44 [MichaelC]
I guess we'll do our best
15:12:45 [Marco_Ranon]
i can try to see if I have a mobile broadband.
15:12:47 [Zakim]
15:13:01 [Zakim]
+ +49.699.435.aabb
15:13:24 [kliehm]
zakim, aabb is me
15:13:24 [Zakim]
+kliehm; got it
15:14:10 [MichaelC]
Marco, if we do the meeting a bit later, can you do it Skype from home?
15:14:38 [Marco_Ranon]
Sorry to ba a pain... I've just moved house and have no broadband yet...
15:14:48 [MichaelC]
heh, ok
15:15:41 [MichaelC]
ok, we'll try to mirror IRC well so you can follow and contribute
15:16:00 [Marco_Ranon]
15:17:58 [Marco_Ranon]
i didn't know.
15:18:09 [MichaelC]
topic: Lead for sub-group
15:18:51 [MichaelC]
Suggestion to have Martin formally lead this sub-group - set agenda, chair calls, implement decisions in bugzilla. Is this proposal ok?
15:19:37 [Marco_Ranon]
OK with me.
15:19:51 [MichaelC]
will need fallback lead when unavailable
15:20:06 [MichaelC]
RESOLUTION: Martin is lead of the bug triage sub-group
15:20:10 [Marco_Ranon]
Martin is more familiar with procedures and bugzilla than I am.
15:21:32 [MichaelC]
topic: Timeline
15:21:51 [MichaelC]
Deadline for new bugs to be considered before LC is 1 October 2010
15:22:00 [MichaelC]
all bugs filed before that date will be processed
15:22:23 [MichaelC]
bugs filed after that date will be queued up for later processing, may ultimately get processed before HTML finalized but no guarantee
15:22:41 [MichaelC]
this means any major accessibility issues need to be filed by then
15:23:00 [MichaelC]
Janina, Mike, and Michael discussed that we probably need to file bugs for drag&drop and keyboard access
15:23:04 [MichaelC]
plan to focus on that this week
15:23:25 [MichaelC]
not sure there's direct impact on bug triage group since we're dealing with existing bugs
15:24:13 [MichaelC]
the deadline that affect us is 22 January 2011, last date to request escalation of bugs into formal protest
15:24:30 [MichaelC]
bug triage subteam must pay close attention to this
15:24:42 [MichaelC]
as this is a central aspect of our work
15:24:47 [kliehm]
15:25:05 [MichaelC]
next major deadline is 23 February 2011, need change proposals for all escalated issues
15:25:18 [MichaelC]
could impact bug triage sub-team, but may be more in the larger TF
15:25:28 [MichaelC]
so these are the deadlines we work under right now
15:25:50 [MichaelC]
it may be that after these, bug triage sub-team can disband, at least until another bug processing opportunity arises
15:25:55 [MichaelC]
comments, questions?
15:26:28 [Marco_Ranon]
basically we have two weeks to go through or list of bugs?
15:26:46 [MichaelC]
clarification: bugs filed after 1 October 2010 will handled as Last Call comments, when that stage is arrived at
15:27:04 [MichaelC]
we will probably need to reband at that point to process comments at that time
15:27:15 [MichaelC]
we have two weeks to file new bugs
15:27:25 [Marco_Ranon]
15:27:31 [MichaelC]
we have 3 months to process the entire set of bugs on our plate
15:27:46 [MichaelC]
until 22 January 2011
15:28:01 [MichaelC]
15:28:11 [kliehm]
15:28:14 [Marco_Ranon]
15:28:38 [MichaelC]
topic: Modus operandi
15:28:43 [MichaelC]
Martin and Michael discussed last week
15:28:50 [MichaelC]
any new input into that for now?
15:29:35 [Marco_Ranon]
15:29:47 [MichaelC]
15:30:56 [MichaelC]
topic: Homework from 2 weeks ago
15:32:40 [MichaelC]
15:33:12 [Marco_Ranon]
Nothing to comment on Joshue bugs you discussed last week. I saw the emails from both MC and MK last week.
15:33:30 [MichaelC]
8674, proposal is to mark verified wontfix
15:35:28 [kliehm]
15:36:30 [Marco_Ranon]
ok. sorry.yes. no objections
15:36:51 [MichaelC]
8681, proposal is to close (not accessibility)
15:36:53 [kliehm]
15:37:19 [Marco_Ranon]
I agree
15:37:52 [MichaelC]
TF previously indicated it would provide further info (Feb 2010)
15:38:00 [MichaelC]
now we'd be saying "never mind"
15:39:05 [Marco_Ranon]
i just don't see where it could be an accessibility issue
15:40:07 [MichaelC]
ok, accepting proposed disposition
15:41:44 [MichaelC]
8754, proposal is to accept editor response
15:42:25 [MichaelC]
in May we wanted Gez to do a change proposal
15:42:39 [MichaelC]
though this might have been a bug that originated with Cynthia
15:43:41 [Marco_Ranon]
Personally, I don't think that having modern UAs allowing to zoom is an excuse to ignore this problem. I often resize text only and in RNIB we do check for text only resizing to work correctly
15:44:46 [MichaelC]
me too, I'm worried that there may be a general issue, even if the particular one in the bug isn't one
15:44:55 [MichaelC]
not clear if it's a content language issue, or a user agent issue
15:45:43 [MichaelC]
we wouldn't want override of explicitly author-set overflow:hidden though
15:45:49 [kliehm]
15:45:59 [MichaelC]
(it's an accessibility problem the author has chosen to go into, perhaps with good reason)
15:46:35 [MichaelC]
the base issue may be one of clipping when zooming
15:47:29 [Marco_Ranon]
i think it should be down to the UA to render the text even if visually hidden
15:47:50 [Marco_Ranon]
the Assistive technology more than the UA
15:48:10 [MichaelC]
think we should go ahead and close this bug, but alert UAAG WG that they should document the larger issue in Implementing UAAG 2.0
15:48:32 [Marco_Ranon]
sound sensible to me
15:48:44 [MichaelC]
because it's not a problem in current *modern* browsers, but we we wouldn't want a new browser to re-introduce the problem
15:49:57 [MichaelC]
action: cooper to refer bug 8754 to UAWG
15:52:37 [MichaelC]
8827 and 8872, both seem related to ISSUE-31
15:53:20 [kliehm] says TrackerRequest should be added before a bug is escalated to an issue
15:54:37 [MichaelC]
seems like it should have the trackerissue keyword just to confirm this
15:55:11 [kliehm]
15:55:44 [kliehm]
15:56:53 [MichaelC]
adding TrackerIssue keyword to 8827, leaving 8872 alone
15:58:40 [kliehm]
15:59:41 [Marco_Ranon]
15:59:59 [MichaelC]
9061, proposal is to reopen because open for counter-proposals
16:00:11 [MichaelC]
but process is not to reopen bugs that have been escalated
16:01:10 [MichaelC]
maybe we should just add a comment that bug triage sub-team understands this is open for counter-proposals and needs no further tracking at TF level at this time
16:01:17 [kliehm]
16:01:22 [Marco_Ranon]
16:01:50 [Joshue]
Joshue has joined #a11y-bugs
16:01:58 [MichaelC]
9098, proposal to close as is
16:03:16 [Joshue]
zakim, code
16:03:16 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code', Joshue
16:03:23 [Joshue]
zakim, code?
16:03:23 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), Joshue
16:06:00 [Marco_Ranon]
i agree in principle. I think @src should be essential part of IMG, and @alt the accessible alternative. But as MC said, i wouldn't be useful to argue this point
16:07:10 [Marco_Ranon]
Joshue, I've been trying for an hour...
16:07:13 [Joshue]
16:07:22 [Joshue]
ok, IRC it is!
16:07:22 [MichaelC]
we're about to wrap up
16:07:31 [MichaelC]
in a bug or two
16:07:37 [Joshue]
I thought it starts at 5?
16:07:43 [Joshue]
Oh, no!
16:07:53 [Joshue]
I got the time wrong didn't I :-(
16:08:02 [Joshue]
Sorry guys..
16:08:06 [MichaelC]
:( yeah, it's 4pm IST
16:08:25 [Joshue]
Ok, I'll amend /both/ my calenders for next time..
16:08:40 [Joshue]
Some thoughts for the record..
16:08:41 [Joshue]
16:09:03 [Joshue]
16:09:09 [Joshue]
Am unsure, it seems to be spanning two use cases. 1) Where the user creates alternate text for individual images 2) Batch processing. I am not convinced that both issues are being dealt with here, and agree with Lauras initial concerns.
16:09:18 [Joshue]
16:09:23 [Joshue]
Josh: I haven?t parsed this bug.
16:09:28 [Joshue]
Bug 9061 - allow image maps on the canvas element.
16:09:35 [Joshue]
This bug relates to the ?how are we gonna make canvas accessible? discussion. Have we a concensus on this issue right now? Or at least have we decided which routes to not go down?
16:10:00 [Joshue]
16:10:08 [MichaelC]
we think 9098 should just be added as a reference from ISSUE-31
16:10:12 [Joshue]
Ok, if nested menus that provide this functionality
16:10:18 [Joshue]
Thats fine..
16:10:42 [Joshue]
For 8681, fine close it.
16:10:47 [Joshue]
Bug 8754: Overflow when text is resized
16:10:56 [Joshue]
Josh: Yes, agree with the resolution, accept and close.
16:11:06 [Joshue]
Does 8827 need the keyword TrackerIssue? Yes. I think this is still an issue.
16:13:13 [Joshue]
I have stuff here relating to 'my' bugs that I sent to the PF list, will I post them here?
16:13:37 [Joshue]
Bug 9437 - change ARIA section title and add extra text about use of ARIA.[
16:13:45 [MichaelC]
we went through them last week, though had question on one
16:13:53 [Joshue]
ok, which one?
16:14:13 [Joshue]
Sorry I couldn't make last week, I was travelleing to Sweden.
16:14:20 [MichaelC]
hang on, we're trying to go through these one at a time
16:14:25 [MichaelC]
still on 9098
16:14:28 [Joshue]
16:15:29 [kliehm]
16:16:16 [Joshue]
Re: 9212 The suggestion is to change the 'generated' mechanism - comes from a worry that authors will abuse it and not bother to generate alternate text for individual images when doing bulk uploads etc, and that the current spec allows them to do this. Hixie then claims that the current spec trusts that authors wouldn't abuse the current model (as a matter of pride). He does make a good point about using current 'batch' tools to push large amounts of conten
16:16:29 [Joshue]
Re: 9212 Are there APIs that can detect the tool being used and therefore provide a document level generator mechanism, when suitable and an element level mechanism otherwise? To me it seems that whatever is the most prevalent use case should be the default, which I suggest is the more granular method - so HTML 5 should support Element Level generator mechanism by default.
16:17:00 [Joshue]
my 2 cents..
16:18:02 [MichaelC]
Josh, would you mind adding those comments to the bug as a clarification?
16:18:14 [Joshue]
Yup, will do that now.
16:18:19 [MichaelC]
we don't see any further action to take at this point because it's already escalated
16:19:22 [Joshue]
16:19:26 [Joshue]
16:19:38 [MichaelC]
Thx. It turns out this is the one from last week we weren't sure about.
16:19:46 [Joshue]
ok, sin e.
16:20:35 [Joshue]
Sorry, outburst of Gaeilge.
16:20:36 [MichaelC]
topic: Homework
16:21:06 [Joshue]
Ok, I'll take a few more bugs Michael.
16:22:02 [MichaelC]
There are homework assignments from to do if they're not done yet
16:22:14 [MichaelC]
also looking at new homework for this week
16:22:29 [Marco_Ranon]
I went through my list for this week. Most The of them are about ARIA mapping. Steve Faulkner addressed them in his email to Maciej on 10 September 2010:
16:22:34 [kliehm]
In particular, Joshue could you address
16:22:49 [Joshue]
Will do Martin.
16:22:51 [MichaelC]
Suggest we look at NEEDSINFO bugs for this coming week
16:22:52 [MichaelC]
16:23:29 [MichaelC]
some of these are already assigned to someone to provide the info, we just need to ping
16:24:02 [Joshue]
So all on this list are NEEDSINFO bugs?
16:24:20 [MichaelC]
assigning 2 each, need to try to provide the actual info as part of the homework
16:24:28 [MichaelC]
some may be easy, some not
16:24:45 [MichaelC]
Martin to take 8622 and 8645
16:24:55 [MichaelC]
Marco to take 8715 and 8722
16:25:03 [MichaelC]
Josh to take 8740 and 8885
16:25:04 [Joshue]
Yeah, some are mammoth. @alt, ARIA and A11y API mappings etc
16:25:10 [MichaelC]
Michael to take 10252 and 10483
16:25:19 [MichaelC]
we may not be able to provide all the needed info
16:25:20 [Joshue]
16:25:29 [MichaelC]
but let's make a good faith effort to try as part of the homework
16:25:37 [MichaelC]
(plus catching up on last week's homework)
16:26:01 [MichaelC]
action: Michael to ping owners of bugs in to make sure they're working on them
16:26:07 [Joshue]
For the record, I don't have much more to add on the Bugs I got, so..
16:26:36 [kliehm]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:26:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kliehm
16:26:38 [MichaelC]
do you want to trade? or get help from colleagues, or tweet a question and see what comes up?
16:26:50 [MichaelC]
topic: Next meeting
16:26:56 [MichaelC]
Martin sends regrets
16:27:02 [Joshue]
Fine with me
16:27:15 [Marco_Ranon]
fine with me too
16:27:40 [Marco_Ranon]
thanks. i am better now
16:27:55 [Joshue]
So just to be clear, are we looking for more info on these bugs, or to state proposals?
16:28:10 [MichaelC]
next meeting will take place as usual: Tuesday 21 September at 15:00 UTC 17:00 CEST 16:00 BST / IST 11:00 EDT
16:28:15 [kliehm]
chair: Michael_Cooper
16:28:27 [MichaelC]
prepare proposals if possible, though don't add to the bug itself
16:28:36 [Joshue]
Ok, fine.
16:28:44 [MichaelC]
meeting: Bug Triage sub-team - HTML A11Y TF
16:28:57 [kliehm]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:28:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kliehm
16:28:58 [MichaelC]
hopefully better telephony
16:29:11 [Marco_Ranon]
16:31:41 [Marco_Ranon]
i'll have a look. i might be able to work from home
16:32:04 [Marco_Ranon]
16:33:27 [Zakim]
16:33:30 [Zakim]
16:33:32 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM has ended
16:33:33 [Zakim]
Attendees were +49.179.103.aaaa, kliehm, Michael_Cooper, +49.699.435.aabb
16:34:30 [kliehm]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:34:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kliehm
16:38:07 [kliehm]
present- aabb
16:38:14 [kliehm]
present- aaaa
16:38:17 [kliehm]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:38:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kliehm
16:40:05 [kliehm]
present- +49.179.103.aaaa
16:40:31 [kliehm]
present+ Marco_Ranon
16:40:57 [kliehm]
zakim, present+ Marco_Ranon
16:40:57 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'present+ Marco_Ranon', kliehm
16:41:07 [kliehm]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:41:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kliehm
16:41:39 [kliehm]
present- +49.699.435.aabb
16:42:31 [kliehm]
present+ Joshue_O_Connor
16:42:36 [kliehm]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:42:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kliehm
16:43:34 [kliehm]
zakim, please part
16:43:34 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #a11y-bugs
16:44:28 [kliehm]
rrsagent, please part
16:44:28 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
16:44:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: cooper to refer bug 8754 to UAWG [1]
16:44:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:44:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael to ping owners of bugs in to make sure they're working on them [2]
16:44:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in