IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-09-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:20:57 [Judy]
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01:04:17 [MikeSmith]
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01:25:37 [Judy]
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02:18:37 [MikeSmith]
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02:47:33 [MikeSmith_]
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04:05:06 [MikeSmith]
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14:57:48 [RRSAgent]
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14:57:48 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:57:56 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML
14:57:56 [Zakim]
ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM already started
14:58:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.468.aaaa
14:58:11 [janina]
zakim, call janina
14:58:11 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
14:58:13 [Zakim]
14:58:31 [Zakim]
14:58:38 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
14:58:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.650.468.aaaa, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita
14:58:40 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Marco_Ranon, eric_carlson, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, Judy, MikeSmith, janina, silvia, trackbot
14:58:58 [oedipus]
regrets: Laura_Carlson,Martin_Kliehm,Kenny_Johar,Sylvia_Pfeiffer,Denis_Boudreau
14:59:06 [JF]
JF has joined #html-a11y
14:59:13 [oedipus]
zakim, aaaa is JF
14:59:13 [Zakim]
+JF; got it
14:59:19 [janina]
zakim, aa is John_Foliot
14:59:19 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named 'aa'
14:59:27 [Zakim]
14:59:28 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
14:59:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see JF, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Eric_Carlson
14:59:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, Marco_Ranon, eric_carlson, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, Judy, MikeSmith, janina, silvia, trackbot
14:59:33 [oedipus]
zakim, JF is John_Foliot
14:59:35 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot; got it
14:59:41 [Zakim]
15:01:05 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike
15:01:05 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:01:07 [Zakim]
15:01:52 [MikeSmith]
15:02:04 [MikeSmith]
trackbot, start meeting
15:02:06 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:02:08 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
15:02:08 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
15:02:09 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:02:09 [trackbot]
Date: 09 September 2010
15:03:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:03:48 [oedipus]
chair: Mike_Smith
15:04:37 [oedipus]
scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
15:04:41 [oedipus]
scribenick: oedipus
15:05:05 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Actions Review
15:05:20 [MikeSmith]
15:05:20 [trackbot]
ACTION-57 -- Paul Cotton to provide background keyboard support for drag and drop (3 weeks) -- due 2010-09-09 -- OPEN
15:05:22 [trackbot]
15:05:33 [oedipus]
MS: don't think paul will be on today's call
15:06:05 [MikeSmith]
action-57 due 2010-09-16
15:06:06 [trackbot]
ACTION-57 Provide background keyboard support for drag and drop (3 weeks) due date now 2010-09-16
15:06:44 [oedipus]
JS: concerned about some lagging actions around drag and drop and accesskey in terms of closing out bugs by 1 October 2010 as determined by the HTML WG chairs
15:06:53 [oedipus]
MS: bug open on drag and drop
15:07:02 [oedipus]
MS: don't know about accesskey/access-*
15:07:08 [MikeSmith]
15:07:08 [trackbot]
ACTION-54 -- Judy Brewer to follow up that NCAM files can be used in HTML5 testbed -- due 2010-08-25 -- OPEN
15:07:08 [trackbot]
15:07:10 [oedipus]
15:07:10 [trackbot]
ACTION-54 -- Judy Brewer to follow up that NCAM files can be used in HTML5 testbed -- due 2010-08-25 -- OPEN
15:07:10 [trackbot]
15:07:33 [oedipus]
JF: Judy needs to get clarification from NCAM -- want to use materials as part of test suite
15:07:37 [MikeSmith]
15:07:37 [trackbot]
ACTION-47 -- Steve Faulkner to file a bug with HTML 5 about making autocomplete consistent with ARIA, per comment 289 -- due 2010-09-02 -- OPEN
15:07:37 [trackbot]
15:07:52 [oedipus]
JF: discussed in yesterday's Media subteam telecon
15:08:16 [oedipus]
MS: not sure if SteveF has done that -- filed a large number of ARIA bugs
15:08:32 [MikeSmith]
action-28 due 2010-09-16
15:08:32 [trackbot]
ACTION-28 - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list due date now 2010-09-16
15:08:47 [oedipus]
s/has done that/has completed action item/
15:08:56 [oedipus] (been up since 2010-07-29)
15:10:08 [oedipus]
15:10:15 [oedipus]
15:10:34 [MikeSmith]
agenda+ access(key)
15:11:06 [oedipus]
TOPIC: funneling public feedback to the HTML Accessibility Task Force
15:11:10 [oedipus]
15:11:37 [jongund]
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15:11:43 [oedipus]
chairs recommend use of public-pfwg-comments list as stated in work statment, but that list is for feedback on PFWG deliverables
15:12:35 [oedipus]
GJR: believe that Janina and MCooper suggest that public-html-a11y should be used instead
15:13:43 [oedipus]
JS: wrong place for TF members -- confounds PFWG's ability to track formal responses to PF work; want to open up public-html-a11y to public posting so that if someone needs to address TF, can send to public-html-a11y -- arguments both pro and con
15:14:13 [MikeSmith]
15:14:26 [oedipus]
JS: rammification of using public-html-a11y -- people won't receive follow-up; could be flooded with email; prolliferation of responses
15:14:41 [oedipus]
JS: on other hand, need mechanism other than bugzilla to have technical discussions
15:14:47 [dsinger_]
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15:14:58 [JF]
15:15:04 [oedipus]
JS: simple point of clarification that can be responded to quickly -- encourage some to join public-html-a11y to work on issues
15:15:15 [MikeSmith]
15:15:21 [MikeSmith]
ack JF
15:15:40 [oedipus]
JF: isn't part of A11y TF req that one has to be member of HTML WG and the W3C patent policy
15:15:54 [oedipus]
JF: if not members, have to CC on response
15:16:06 [dsinger_]
Zakim, this is a11y
15:16:06 [Zakim]
ok, dsinger_; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
15:16:09 [oedipus]
MC: 1 of primary reasons didn't make list publically writable initially
15:16:30 [MikeSmith]
15:16:31 [oedipus]
GJR: notes that bugzilla is the culprit when it comes to proliferation of posts
15:16:56 [oedipus]
JF: don't want public-html-a11y to be a "catch-all" place where people expect responses
15:17:13 [oedipus]
MS: non-members cannot post to list; could monitor them, but that is a burden
15:17:40 [oedipus]
MS: other list can be used -- www-style list for technical discussions open to public, for example
15:17:55 [dsinger_]
Trackbot, start meeting
15:17:55 [trackbot]
Sorry, dsinger_, I don't understand 'Trackbot, start meeting'. Please refer to for help
15:18:00 [oedipus]
MS: 1st need to figure out if what we are doing now is broken -- if not, don't change
15:18:35 [oedipus]
MS: wanted HTML WG members to be more involved in TF -- allowing them to post to TF list without being part of TF doesn't give incentive to join
15:18:49 [oedipus]
JS: but then they are cut off from the discussion/threads
15:19:00 [oedipus]
MS: what is problem - does it need fixing?
15:19:28 [richardschwerdtfe]
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15:19:46 [oedipus]
MS: some people sent cross-posted emessages to public-html and public-html-a11y -- threat of starting 2 threads -- not recommended that post to both public-html and public-html-a11y
15:20:16 [oedipus]
MS: if post message to a member list and a public list, those reading message on member list reply only to member list
15:20:46 [oedipus]
MS: solution is not to cross post -- restrict to one list or another
15:20:55 [oedipus]
15:21:15 [oedipus]
ack oe
15:21:17 [oedipus]
GJR: but public-html-a11y is publically reviewable
15:21:17 [MikeSmith]
ack oedipus
15:21:49 [oedipus]
GJR: people can use archive to keep up on threads and review responses
15:21:49 [MikeSmith]
15:21:58 [Zakim]
15:22:16 [dsinger_]
15:22:16 [trackbot]
Sorry, dsinger_, I don't understand 'Trackbot, '. Please refer to for help
15:22:35 [dsinger_]
Trackbot, prepare telcon
15:22:35 [trackbot]
Sorry, dsinger_, I don't understand 'Trackbot, prepare telcon'. Please refer to for help
15:22:36 [oedipus]
CS: 2 thoughts: 1) reason don't have separate public comments list; 2) tweak reply-to header to include poster
15:22:39 [janina]
15:22:55 [oedipus]
MS: can we change the headers?
15:23:00 [oedipus]
MC: think so, but not sure
15:23:22 [oedipus]
MS: will check into header tweaking through admin interface
15:23:38 [oedipus]
JS: more we talk about this, the more i find my mind changing --
15:23:51 [dsinger_]
trackbot, prepare telcon
15:24:08 [oedipus]
JS: problem may just be guidance -- don't want posting to public-pfwg-comments -- we could use
15:24:54 [oedipus]
MS: not sure necessary for people to send comments to the public-html-a11y -- a lot of people think have too many mailing lists already
15:25:41 [oedipus]
MS: TF is intended to answer to PFWG and HTML WG -- not ment to be a public facing group that people expect they can comment to
15:26:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:26:24 [oedipus]
CS: if have existing low volume list, that would make sense
15:27:02 [oedipus]
MC: catch-22 problem with wai-xtech -- used for many different purposes; no formal way at moment to separate threads -- if someone wants to monitor, could be an option
15:27:14 [oedipus]
CS: unlikely that comments on HTML5 will get lost on wai-xtech
15:27:47 [oedipus]
JF: members of HTML WG should be able to post to HTML A11y TF -- if HTML WG members want/need advice, they should be able to post to public-html-a11y
15:28:01 [oedipus]
JS: can mail support member of PFWG and HTML WG?
15:28:26 [oedipus]
MC: allowing anyone in HTML WG to post to public-html-a11y not so easy
15:28:46 [oedipus]
CS: change bounce message with instructions on how to get post posted to public-html-a11y
15:28:57 [oedipus]
MC: doesn't require approval, but does require processing
15:29:07 [oedipus]
MC: extended invitation to HTML WG several times
15:29:41 [oedipus]
JF: goal -- get things done right -- if HTML WG member wants to query HTML A11y TF and engage in dialog, should be able to do so
15:30:21 [oedipus]
CS: 1) give HTML WG posting permissions to pubilc-html-a11y or make clear why bounce happening
15:31:10 [oedipus]
ACTION: MikeSmith - ascertain if can allow posting to public-html-a11y by anyone subscribed to public-html
15:31:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-58 - - ascertain if can allow posting to public-html-a11y by anyone subscribed to public-html [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2010-09-16].
15:31:11 [MikeSmith]
action: MikeSmith to check into making it possible for any HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list
15:31:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-59 - Check into making it possible for any HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2010-09-16].
15:32:23 [oedipus]
MS: can do a copy and paste of email addresses - have categories of mailing lists: subscriber (receive mail) accept list (not subscribed but allowed to post to it) -- might have to effect change manually, but can do that
15:32:24 [kliehm]
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15:32:33 [oedipus]
TOPIC: media subteam update
15:32:35 [JF]
15:33:36 [oedipus]
JF: user reqs piece done; distilled down into a table "Media Accessibility Checklist" have to go through user reqs and match to existing technologies -- basically need to figure out what technologies are impacted by different reequirements
15:34:11 [oedipus]
JF: captioning section: 1 user req is "render time synchronized cues..." -- API issues, user preferences, rendering (visual/audio/textual)
15:34:33 [oedipus]
JF: tag user reqs to reorder and reshift based on technology reqs
15:35:03 [oedipus]
JF: huge need to get this done for yesterday -- media subteam committed to knuckle down, but need specific feedback from non-subteam members
15:35:21 [Zakim]
15:35:34 [dsinger_]
15:35:40 [oedipus]
JF: even if only have 15 minutes, please consult and tag with a11y requirements; goal is to complete over weekend so can discuss at TF telecon next week
15:35:56 [Stevef]
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15:36:07 [Stevef]
15:36:30 [oedipus]
JF: browsers waiting on us also looking at timeline to integrate into browsers; urgency comes from fact that UA devs will be shortly supporting multimedia components of HTML5 and we need to provide them with the reqs and advice
15:36:56 [oedipus]
JF: if don't have time to edit wiki, put into email and send to JF
15:37:01 [oedipus]
15:37:07 [oedipus]
ack ds
15:37:08 [MikeSmith]
15:37:13 [dsinger_]
Zakim, unmute dsinger
15:37:13 [Zakim]
dsinger was not muted, dsinger_
15:37:31 [oedipus]
RS: people reviewing ATAG 2.0 currently; took me a long time to process checklist
15:38:10 [oedipus]
JF: not a trivial task, but an essential one -- time constraints outside our control, but if don't complete, we will be left standing on the station
15:39:02 [oedipus]
DS: CSS WG meeting a few weeks ago; pointed out talked about doing media queries to deliver appropriate media -- try to resurrect idea -- will make sure mention Media Queries in new charter
15:39:11 [oedipus]
RS: continue work begun with DS on this?
15:39:37 [oedipus]
DS: not necessary; will follow up in CSS WG
15:40:20 [oedipus]
JF: could you or someone from CSS WG take some time to look at matrix to ascertain what can be handled by CSS
15:40:39 [oedipus]
DS: read reqs document over weekend -- there was one obvious one that jumped out at me; will tag on wiki page
15:40:43 [oedipus]
15:41:16 [oedipus]
JS: presentation to wider group torpedoed by VOIP problems; rescheduled to discuss in next hour's telecon
15:41:26 [oedipus]
JS: will present media reqs on HTML WG telecon today
15:42:10 [oedipus]
JS: important that user reqs should not be assumed by wider group -- will ask if something there that shouldn't be there or if something is missing that should be there -- don't want to conflate the 2 issues
15:42:42 [oedipus]
JS: now is time to speak of user reqs - take-away: this is reqs list against which we are engineering
15:43:30 [oedipus]
JS: might be useful for this TF to vote on media requirements list -- subteam thinks has gotten feedback from whole TF, but may want to log a formal resolution recommending the media a11y reqs
15:43:48 [oedipus]
GJR: would a CfC be appropriate
15:44:22 [oedipus]
MS: need to know from media subteam if there is anything else other than what you outlined -- everyone please look at reqs and ensure that nothing is missing
15:44:46 [oedipus]
TOPIC: ARIA mappings subteam update
15:45:11 [oedipus]
SF: email to public-html with bugs and responses (rejected or accepted)
15:45:29 [MikeSmith]
15:46:06 [oedipus]
SF: mapping team identified non-controversial issues; others we need to discuss -- haven't had meeting for a few weeks, but will meet next week to discuss outstanding issues we need to respond to
15:46:20 [oedipus]
MS: gotten chairs' attention on this; MJS been very responsive recently
15:46:50 [oedipus]
MS: if have delays, let me know and i'll try to expedite
15:46:55 [oedipus]
TOPIC: canvas update
15:47:02 [oedipus]
MS: status?
15:47:55 [oedipus]
RS: nothing new -- as said in last call we have proposal, but feel that hixie is giving us the run-around; focusing on ARIA integration right now - have someone working to resolve issues, once resolved, will return to canvas
15:48:25 [oedipus]
MS: chairs announced timeline (deadline to log bugs is 2010-10-01)
15:48:56 [oedipus]
RS: lets get ARIA thing done first; editorial things on ARIA side to help -- still areas of tension which need to be resolved
15:49:16 [oedipus]
JS: discussed last week in terms of next steps: what will caret drawing API entail?
15:49:29 [oedipus]
JS: discussed in leadership meeting with chairs, so is on their radar
15:49:42 [oedipus]
RS: can also look at apple's proposal about UI events
15:50:10 [oedipus]
15:50:20 [MikeSmith]
15:50:32 [oedipus]
15:51:04 [oedipus]
RS: privacy concern: exposing specific AT to browser may compromise user
15:51:15 [oedipus]
RS: would like Cynthia to look at this
15:51:31 [oedipus]
RS: device indepent access on mobile devices less dependent on keystrokes
15:51:57 [oedipus]
-> Zakim User Interface Independence for Accessible Rich Internet Applications
15:52:02 [oedipus]
TOPIC: drag and drop
15:52:22 [oedipus]
RS: gez travelling and on vacation
15:52:26 [MikeSmith]
15:52:37 [oedipus]
SF: question: is HTML5 dnd implemented in most browsers?
15:52:45 [oedipus]
SF: is it implemented accessibly anywhere
15:52:52 [Zakim]
15:52:55 [oedipus]
SF: underscores issue
15:53:02 [oedipus]
MS: huge interoperability problem
15:53:04 [oedipus]
15:53:12 [Zakim]
15:53:23 [oedipus]
MS: if want to use HTML5 dnd willhave hard time getting to work across multiple browsers
15:53:34 [oedipus]
MS: hard to know how to fix to get to work interoperably
15:53:42 [kliehm]
D&d is implemented but broken in most browsers, particularly the event model
15:54:05 [oedipus]
MS: need a fix
15:54:55 [oedipus]
RS: proposal from apple includes device independent drag and drop
15:55:41 [oedipus]
GJR: refers to previous discussions and work on dnd
15:56:16 [oedipus]
RS: apple's proposal needs to be examined from dnd perspective; idea is UA would determine gestures or keystrokes to execute drag and everything else; selection to drag needs work
15:56:55 [oedipus]
GJR: since there isn't a copy and paste API in HTML5, either one needs to be added or the workflow for ARIA dnd needs to be adapted by HTML5
15:57:00 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Access-asterisk
15:58:54 [oedipus]
15:59:18 [oedipus]
15:59:27 [Zakim]
15:59:37 [oedipus]
16:00:08 [oedipus]
JS: clarification on HTML WG bug freeze -- 1 October 2010 -- lends urgency to our efforts
16:00:20 [oedipus]
GJR: should i file as a bug or as an issue (need/requirements for verbose descriptor)
16:01:58 [oedipus]
MS: decision policy doesn't provide us with way to directly escalate something to be an issue -- can provide spec text itself for consideration
16:02:18 [oedipus]
MS: issue is that long descriptor isn't addressed in spec at all now -- will put on next week's agenda
16:02:28 [oedipus]
JS: will add to agenda for discussion next week
16:02:31 [Zakim]
16:02:32 [Zakim]
16:02:33 [oedipus]
16:02:35 [Zakim]
16:02:40 [Zakim]
16:02:40 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
16:02:41 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
16:02:42 [Zakim]
16:02:42 [Zakim]
16:02:44 [Zakim]
16:02:46 [Zakim]
16:02:46 [janina]
janina has left #html-a11y
16:02:47 [Zakim]
16:02:49 [Zakim]
16:02:51 [Zakim]
- +44.207.391.aabb
16:02:53 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
16:02:58 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.650.468.aaaa, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Eric_Carlson, John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Mike, +44.207.391.aabb, Cynthia_Shelly, dsinger, Rich
16:03:02 [eric_carlson]
eric_carlson has left #html-a11y
16:03:09 [Laura]
Laura has joined #html-a11y
16:03:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:03:20 [oedipus]
zakim, bye
16:03:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:04:34 [oedipus]
present- +1.650.468.aaaa
16:04:38 [oedipus]
present- +44.207.391.aabb
16:04:41 [oedipus]
present+ Marco_Ranon
16:04:44 [oedipus]
present+ Steve_Faulkner
16:04:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:17:17 [oedipus]
s/ARIA dnd needs to be adapted by HTML5/ARIA dnd needs to be adapted by HTML5 -- that was the end result of gez' investigation/
16:17:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:18:01 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
16:18:01 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
16:18:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MikeSmith - ascertain if can allow posting to public-html-a11y by anyone subscribed to public-html [1]
16:18:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:18:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MikeSmith to check into making it possible for any HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list [2]
16:18:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in