IRC log of CSS on 2010-09-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:39:44 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:39:44 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-CSS-irc
15:39:49 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:39:49 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
15:39:55 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:42:50 [dbaron]
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15:48:25 [glazou]
dbaron: do you have plans to extend -moz-*-gradient() to the CSS 3 values of <position> ?
15:48:37 [glazou]
(as in CSS 3 Images spec...)
15:50:02 [dbaron]
you mean the new background-position syntax?
15:50:04 [dbaron]
glazou, ^
15:50:25 [dbaron]
I think we'd do that at the same point we implemented that new background-position syntax
15:50:27 [dbaron]
which we should probably do
15:50:38 [dbaron]
but don't have immediate plans for
15:50:42 [dbaron]
(I'm not even sure if there's a bug on it.)
15:52:50 [glazou]
ok thx
15:53:17 [dsinger_]
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15:53:52 [oyvind]
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15:54:00 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:54:05 [Zakim]
+dsinger
15:55:47 [bradk]
bradk has joined #css
15:56:16 [glazou]
european zakim bridge is down...
15:56:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.216.aaaa
15:57:05 [plinss]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:57:05 [Zakim]
+plinss; got it
15:57:36 [glazou]
plinss: do you think you can conference me in again ? zakim european bridge is down
15:58:03 [plinss]
sure, give me a minute
15:58:56 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.920.aabb
15:59:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aacc
15:59:23 [TabAtkins_]
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15:59:30 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa has glazou
15:59:31 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:59:33 [plinss]
zakim, plinss is [plinss]
15:59:33 [Zakim]
+[plinss]; got it
15:59:42 [plinss]
zakim, [plinss] has glazou
15:59:42 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:59:53 [TabAtkins_]
zakim, who is here?
15:59:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dsinger (muted), [plinss], +1.415.920.aabb, +1.650.253.aacc
15:59:55 [Zakim]
[plinss] has glazou
15:59:59 [Zakim]
On IRC I see TabAtkins_, bradk, oyvind, dsinger_, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kennyluck, szilles, Martijn, jdaggett, boblet, arronei, krijnh, lhnz, karl, tabatkins, Bert,
16:00:04 [glazou]
dsinger_: zakim's health is really poor...
16:00:06 [Zakim]
... fantasai, plinss, gsnedders, jgraham, Hixie, trackbot
16:00:16 [TabAtkins_]
zakim, aacc is me
16:00:26 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:00:28 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins_; got it
16:00:32 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft is me
16:00:58 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:01:24 [smfr]
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16:01:29 [dsinger_]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dsinger (muted), [plinss], +1.415.920.aabb, TabAtkins_, arronei
16:01:37 [Zakim]
[plinss] has glazou
16:01:47 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.636.aadd
16:01:52 [smfr]
Zakim, aadd is me
16:02:00 [Zakim]
+smfr; got it
16:02:15 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.324.aaee
16:02:25 [sylvaing]
sylvaing has joined #css
16:02:43 [Zakim]
+ +47.21.65.aaff
16:02:54 [howcome]
howcome has joined #CSS
16:03:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.275.aagg
16:03:32 [bradk]
Zakim, aagg is me
16:03:32 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
16:03:33 [dbaron]
I'm just getting "this passcode is not valid"
16:03:40 [glazou]
dsinger_: the UK one ?
16:03:50 [dsinger_]
Too many incogniti!
16:05:02 [plinss]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dsinger (muted), [plinss], +1.415.920.aabb, TabAtkins_, arronei, smfr, +1.206.324.aaee, +47.21.65.aaff, bradk
16:05:02 [dbaron]
ok, now Zakim isn't even prompting me for a passcode
16:05:04 [Zakim]
[plinss] has glazou
16:05:20 [dbaron]
it's just hanging up
16:05:36 [TabAtkins_]
Zakim just hates you, dbaron.
16:05:37 [glazou]
dbaron: happens to me all the time when zakim does not hang after 1st ring
16:05:48 [dbaron]
and now it says the passcode is not valid again
16:06:09 [plinss]
zakim, aaff is howcome
16:06:09 [Zakim]
+howcome; got it
16:06:12 [glazou]
maybe we should bring Zakim's health as a TPAC topic
16:06:43 [boblet]
oh hey fantasai I just pinged you on Twitter
16:06:48 [dbaron]
I didn't bring my headset for my cellphone to work, so there's not much point in my calling in with it
16:07:00 [dbaron]
So I'm just going to give up.
16:07:07 [Zakim]
+Bert
16:07:09 [dbaron]
I guess I'll try calling in from home next week.
16:07:13 [plinss]
zakim, aaee is sylvaing
16:07:13 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
16:07:59 [dsinger_]
Zakim, aabb is fantasai
16:07:59 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:08:31 [glazou]
Bert: no luck for me :(
16:09:10 [glazou]
lol
16:09:15 [TabAtkins_]
ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
16:09:22 [boblet]
nn all
16:09:27 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Anything to add to the agenda?
16:09:38 [Zakim]
+[Mozilla]
16:09:47 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: I sent an email a few minutes ago about a workshop in Japan that I'd like to have on the agenda.
16:10:25 [dbaron]
No idea why it worked the 30th time and not the first 29.
16:10:50 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Open issues. First up, 101.
16:10:50 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
16:11:09 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Says we were waiting for a testcase from Arron?
16:11:14 [TabAtkins_]
arronei: Test case was created.
16:11:24 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Anyone had a chance to review the testcase yet?
16:11:47 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: I didn't know about it had been done yet.
16:12:17 [TabAtkins_]
arronei: I just created them in the last two days. I just sent an email about them to the list.
16:13:20 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: There were testcases in the original email. Is this testcase for the rule 3, 5, or 7 case?
16:14:48 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: There were already testcases, so I'm not sure why this issue had testcase creation assigned to it. I think what was needed was proposed text to adjust the spec.
16:15:13 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: From the minutes, all that was discussed was testcases.
16:15:32 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: I had an action item to write text, but I said I couldn't get to it for a little while. Arron volunteered to write some test cases instead.
16:15:45 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Will you or someone else be able to step in and write some text for this?
16:16:04 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: Probably not in the next few weeks, so if someone else can do it that would be good.
16:16:10 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: I can try and write text for it.
16:16:39 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Next issue, 121. Bert sent in a proposal on this one.
16:17:05 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: I responded to this a few minutes ago. I'm fine with the changes, though I'm not sure the "Generally..." bit is true.
16:18:09 [dbaron]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0411.html
16:18:14 [dbaron]
is the proposal
16:19:41 [dsinger]
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16:19:48 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
16:19:52 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: I'm not really objecting to the change, I just think some of the wording adjustments in the proposal I don't think are quite right.
16:19:54 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:19:54 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
16:19:55 [dethbakin]
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16:20:02 [Zakim]
-dsinger
16:20:07 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: I think it would help if it clarified that the paragraph in question had only one font; then I think it'd be true.
16:20:17 [fantasai]
Bert, that should be s/block-level box/block container/
16:20:23 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: That's what the "etc" was meant to cover, but I can make it explicit.
16:20:35 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: That might be worth mentioning.
16:21:05 [Bert]
(Fantasai, isn't that already in the issues list?)
16:21:48 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: Accept Bert's changes for issue 129, with the slight edit suggested by dbaron.
16:21:59 [TabAtkins_]
s/issue 129/issue 121/
16:22:10 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Next up is issue 129.
16:22:54 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: I need to merge 129 with 139. It's straightforward; there's an email from Yves.
16:23:27 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: issue 142.
16:24:16 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Could we talk about issues that need WG discussion, rather than overseeing Bert's edits?
16:24:36 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: I'm trying to just go over the ones that looked like they needed work.
16:24:45 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: But we only have half an hour, and have a bunch of issues to look at.
16:24:55 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: let's skip ahead then. 158?
16:25:47 [dbaron]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0458.html
16:25:50 [dbaron]
I'm fine with the edits
16:26:15 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: I'm fine with this edit, though there's a seperate note about something later in this thread in issue 203.
16:26:18 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: I think it's fine.
16:26:26 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's edits for issue 158.
16:26:41 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Issue 159.
16:27:22 [alexmog]
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16:27:31 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: This should be completely editorial. I've discussed it with Arron and Michael.
16:27:49 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: What says that margins are non-adjoining due to min-height?
16:28:27 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: "The top and bottom margins of a box with used height other than 0".
16:29:01 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: This is a change to say that max-height has an effect. If max-height is 0 and height is non-0, the margins would collapse here, while that wasn't true before.
16:29:10 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Any clue what impls actually *do* with that?
16:29:27 [TabAtkins_]
arronei: I don't have a testcase specifically for that.
16:30:27 [fantasai]
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22border%3A%20solid%3B%22%3E%0A%20%20%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22margin%3A%202em%3B%20max-height%3A%200%3B%20height%3A%205em%22%3E%0A%20%20%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E
16:30:36 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: I thin kit would be good to write a testcase to see what impls actually do.
16:31:04 [nimbupani]
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16:31:51 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Opera, Konqueror, Chrome, and Firefox do not collapse margins if max-height is 0 and height is non-0.
16:32:06 [TabAtkins_]
arronei: I see consistency across the board here.
16:33:04 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: There's a bullet point about "bottom margin of element and botto margin of last in-flow child" and the one after that - the problem with those two is that they change the latter changes the conditions of the former in the situation where all the margins collapse with each other.
16:33:11 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I don't understand.
16:33:25 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: The question is, does the bottom margin of a last child collapse with the bottom margin of its parent?
16:33:35 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: In particular, the case where the parent has non-zero min-height, but auto height.
16:34:04 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: The last condition requires no children.
16:34:37 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: Then there's a discontinuity if you have children or not, which is odd and I think might be a change from the spec.
16:34:59 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: The fourth bullet has to be changed to say 0 min-height and auto height, but I don't know how that'll interact with stuff from the CSS3 box model.
16:36:02 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I'll update the proposal to explicitly fix that part.
16:36:07 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Anything else with this one?
16:36:34 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Next, issue 172.
16:38:42 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
16:39:12 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I did make a normative change, about honoring explicit widths.
16:39:22 [Zakim]
+ +33.9.50.89.aahh
16:39:41 [glazou]
Zakim, aahh is me
16:39:41 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:40:07 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: Seems fine.
16:40:36 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's edits for issue 172.
16:41:08 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
16:41:15 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Issue 173?
16:41:21 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I've worked on it, but it's a mess.
16:41:32 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Also, Henri responded to it this morning, so there's still work to be done on it.
16:41:37 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: We'll come back to it. Issue 187?
16:42:21 [TabAtkins_]
I like the text now, though I have no clue about it matching reality or whatnot.
16:43:09 [fantasai]
Reality seems kind of confused when last I tested it :)
16:44:17 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: I like it. Seems precise.
16:44:28 [bradk]
:)
16:44:53 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's edits for issue 187.
16:45:16 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Issue 191.
16:45:41 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: I agree with this.
16:45:55 [TabAtkins_]
arronei: Do we say anywhere that markers create a line box?
16:46:02 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: We say they *may*.
16:47:03 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Issue 192.
16:47:14 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: At the ftf we decided the 3rd issue was invalid, but there was some pushback on that?
16:48:38 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: There's a *lot* of references in Anton's email, that you have to read in the right order to know what is being talked about.
16:48:54 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: I'll produce an "executive summary" of all the references, so we can know what's being referred to exactly.
16:48:59 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Issue 197.
16:49:07 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Boris just replied to this and gave an example:
16:49:08 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0198.html
16:50:16 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: That's why we don't hoist inline clearing up to its containing block normally. Can't recall why we did it in this case.
16:50:26 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Because we thought that's what the prose was trying to say.
16:51:22 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Since IE is the only browser that implements run-in, can we get a quick test-case to see what it does here?
16:52:10 [fantasai]
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20left%3B%20border%3A%201em%20solid%20fuchsia%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20right%3B%20border%3A%201em%20solid%20aqua%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cspan%20style%3D%22display%3A%20run-in%3B%20clear%3A%20right%3B%22%3ERun-in%3C%2Fspan%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22clear%3A%20left%22%3EParagraph%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A
16:52:12 [oyvind]
we do too...
16:52:13 [TabAtkins_]
arronei: I think there's going to need to be a few testcases for this. I can put them together so we can see them next week.
16:53:12 [fantasai]
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20left%3B%20border%3A%202em%20solid%20fuchsia%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20right%3B%20border%3A%201em%20solid%20aqua%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cspan%20style%3D%22display%3A%20run-in%3B%20clear%3A%20right%3B%22%3ERun-in%3C%2Fspan%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22clear%3A%20left%22%3EParagraph%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20s
16:55:53 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
16:55:55 [oyvind]
(opera matches IE8 on those as far as I can see)
16:56:02 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Can we do the rest of these tests off-call?
16:56:06 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Issue 199.
16:56:43 [fantasai]
arronei: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20left%3B%20border%3A%202em%20solid%20fuchsia%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20right%3B%20border%3A%201em%20solid%20aqua%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cspan%20style%3D%22display%3A%20run-in%3B%20clear%3A%20right%3B%22%3ERun-in%3C%2Fspan%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22clear%3A%20left%3B%20border%3A%20solid%20silver%3
16:57:08 [fantasai]
arronei: Question is, does clearance move the silver box in both cases?
16:57:12 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: I sent an email to the list yesterday to define that lineboxes are *not* created in the relevant situations, rather than the somewhat circular prose currently in the spec.
16:57:15 [fantasai]
arronei: Or the silver box in one case and the text in the other?
16:58:07 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0190.html - Tab's proposal
16:58:36 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0194.html may also be helpful
17:00:22 [smfr]
groovy
17:00:25 [glazou]
uuuuuuh
17:01:04 [fantasai]
oyvind, not out-of-flow :)
17:01:46 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: If a linebox isn't created, what are the positions of the things that would have otherwise been there?
17:02:12 [Zakim]
-smfr
17:02:22 [smfr]
sorry gtg
17:02:23 [smfr]
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17:02:44 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: You could instead say that such lineboxes are only used to calculate the position of boxes that would be in the linebox, but not for any other purpose.
17:02:52 [oyvind]
fantasai, I'm not sure if you're joking or if that's actually defined somewhere :)
17:02:54 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: I will send an updated proposal that says something to that effect today.
17:03:59 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Last thing was issue 203, which is a testable change in margin collapsing. Arron and I talked with Michael in Oslo and it seemed that implementations actually agreed on it.
17:04:04 [Zakim]
-dbaron
17:04:05 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Okay, we'll talk about that next week.
17:04:06 [Zakim]
-sylvaing
17:04:06 [Zakim]
-arronei
17:04:08 [Zakim]
-glazou
17:04:08 [Zakim]
-fantasai
17:04:11 [Zakim]
-bradk
17:04:14 [Zakim]
-howcome
17:04:16 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
17:04:16 [Zakim]
-Bert
17:04:18 [Zakim]
-[plinss]
17:04:37 [fantasai]
oyvind: that's actually the definition
17:04:42 [Zakim]
-TabAtkins_
17:04:43 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:04:45 [Zakim]
Attendees were dsinger, +1.858.216.aaaa, +1.415.920.aabb, +1.650.253.aacc, glazou, TabAtkins_, arronei, +1.408.636.aadd, smfr, +1.206.324.aaee, +47.21.65.aaff, +1.650.275.aagg,
17:04:50 [Zakim]
... bradk, howcome, Bert, sylvaing, fantasai, dbaron, SteveZ, +33.9.50.89.aahh
17:05:50 [oyvind]
but is it assumed to be obvious what counts as "out-of-flow"?
17:09:31 [oyvind]
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#img-floateg "non-positioned in-flow blocks"
17:22:56 [fantasai]
oyvind: if you want to file an issue, you must send an email
17:32:54 [oyvind]
yeah, I'll do that tomorrow or something
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