IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-08-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:59:16 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:59:16 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:59:48 [MikeSmith]
trackbot, start meeting
14:59:50 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:52 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
14:59:52 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:53 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:59:53 [trackbot]
Date: 26 August 2010
15:00:06 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike
15:00:06 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:00:07 [janina]
zakim, call janina
15:00:08 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
15:00:15 [oedipus]
15:01:03 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:01:03 [Zakim]
sorry, paulc, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft]'
15:01:15 [paulc]
zakim, who is here?
15:01:18 [MichaelC]
zakim, this is 2119
15:01:19 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has not yet started, paulc
15:01:21 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Joshue, janina, MikeSmith, JF, oedipus, jongund, paulc, eric_carlson, MichaelC, davidb, trackbot
15:01:26 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
15:01:35 [Ben]
Ben has joined #html-a11y
15:01:56 [kliehm]
kliehm has joined #html-a11y
15:02:16 [Stevef]
Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:02:17 [Joshue]
zakim, code?
15:02:30 [Zakim]
15:02:39 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), Joshue
15:02:58 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P1 is Jon_Gunderson
15:03:07 [MichaelC]
zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner
15:03:27 [Zakim]
+Jon_Gunderson; got it
15:03:35 [Zakim]
+Steve_Faulkner; got it
15:03:42 [Joshue]
I'm changin bridge nos
15:03:43 [Zakim]
15:03:47 [MichaelC]
regrets+ Denis_Boudreau
15:03:59 [Zakim]
15:04:06 [Ben]
zakim, ??P33 is Ben_Caldwell
15:04:11 [MichaelC]
regrets+ Laura_Carlson
15:04:15 [Zakim]
+Ben_Caldwell; got it
15:04:18 [oedipus]
regrets+ Kenny_Johar
15:04:51 [MikeSmith]
15:04:54 [oedipus]
mike, you sound like you are being held hostage
15:05:03 [oedipus]
15:05:37 [MichaelC]
zakim, Microsoft is Paul_Cotton
15:05:37 [Zakim]
+Paul_Cotton; got it
15:06:01 [Marco_Ranon]
Marco_Ranon has joined #html-a11y
15:06:25 [Zakim]
15:06:44 [Joshue]
zakim, P0
15:06:44 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'P0', Joshue
15:06:46 [Ben]
scribe: Ben
15:06:57 [Joshue]
zakim, P0 is Joshue
15:06:57 [Zakim]
sorry, Joshue, I do not recognize a party named 'P0'
15:06:59 [Ben]
15:06:59 [AllanJ]
AllanJ has joined #html-a11y
15:07:22 [Joshue]
zakim, ??P0 is Joshue
15:07:22 [Zakim]
+Joshue; got it
15:07:24 [Ben]
agenda+ Actions Review
15:07:36 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:07:36 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:07:47 [Ben]
agenda+ bug triage subteam report
15:07:49 [MikeSmith]
15:07:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-54 -- Judy Brewer to follow up that NCAM files can be used in HTML5 testbed -- due 2010-08-25 -- OPEN
15:07:49 [trackbot]
15:07:58 [Ben]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:07:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Actions Review" taken up [from Ben]
15:08:05 [Ben]
agenda+ ARIA mappings subteam update
15:08:10 [Ben]
agenda+ media subteam update
15:08:15 [Ben]
agenda+ canvas update
15:08:21 [MikeSmith]
15:08:22 [trackbot]
ACTION-47 -- Steve Faulkner to file a bug with HTML 5 about making autocomplete consistent with ARIA, per comment 289 -- due 2010-07-29 -- OPEN
15:08:22 [trackbot]
15:08:23 [Ben]
agenda+ drag-and-drop status
15:09:00 [MikeSmith]
action-47 due 2010-09-02
15:09:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-47 File a bug with HTML 5 about making autocomplete consistent with ARIA, per comment 289 due date now 2010-09-02
15:10:10 [oedipus]
15:10:21 [MikeSmith]
action-28 due 2010-09-02
15:10:21 [trackbot]
ACTION-28 - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list due date now 2010-09-02
15:10:30 [MikeSmith]
action-28 due 2010-09-09
15:10:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-28 - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list due date now 2010-09-09
15:10:47 [Ben]
zakim, close this item
15:10:47 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
15:10:49 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:10:51 [Zakim]
2. bug triage subteam report [from Ben]
15:10:53 [Zakim]
15:10:55 [Ben]
zakim, next item
15:10:55 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "bug triage subteam report" taken up [from Ben]
15:10:56 [oedipus]
15:10:56 [trackbot]
ACTION-28 - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list notes added
15:11:08 [Ben]
15:11:30 [Zakim]
15:11:31 [Marco_Ranon]
(sorry for the delay - usual issues dialling in)
15:11:37 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike
15:11:37 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:11:38 [Zakim]
15:11:46 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
15:11:46 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
15:11:47 [Zakim]
15:12:06 [Ben]
MC: Marco, Martin and I have met 3 times and have reviewed a number of bugs.
15:12:30 [MichaelC]
zakim, mute marco
15:12:30 [Zakim]
Marco_Ranon should now be muted
15:12:39 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike
15:12:39 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:12:40 [Marco_Ranon]
15:12:41 [Zakim]
15:13:48 [kliehm]
15:13:54 [Ben]
MC: we talked about process, request for Paul regarding prioritiziation. we have reviewed bugs identified by laura as bugs the task force shoudl take up
15:14:23 [kliehm]
15:14:29 [kliehm]
15:15:36 [Ben]
MC: trying to be strict about those that the task force really needs to deal with. details of that are in the reccs we sent. next step for subteam is to go through all bugs in a resolved (particularly needs info) state and, whenever possible, provide the information needed ourselves. Process will be to feed that info back through the TF before adding it.
15:16:38 [Ben]
will be cases where we'll need to ask for help from individuals on the task force. this project will be the main focus in the subgroup for a while and it's likely to take a fair bit of time. will try to do it in a strategic and prioritised manner.
15:17:02 [kliehm]
15:17:09 [Ben]
JF: may be related, but noticed a whole slew of new accessibility related bugs. what is process for dealing with new bugs as they arrive?
15:17:34 [paulc]
Probably all the new bugs are sub-cases from 10066?
15:17:40 [Ben]
MC: Intention to process new bugs is there. Would be willing to take advice about relative priority. Should we look at new bugs first or should we focus on "needs info" bugs?
15:17:54 [Ben]
think we nee to focus on needs info first
15:18:02 [kliehm]
15:18:37 [Ben]
SF: New bugs are largely in regards to ARIA in HTML5 proposal. Understanding is that there will be push from HTML chairs to process those.
15:19:04 [Ben]
MC: Assume some will end up in needs info state.
15:19:29 [Ben]
SF: there is new one related to longdesc that may be worth looking at soon
15:20:10 [paulc]
The Editor has processed 15 of the 30 A11Y bugs recently.
15:20:31 [paulc]
I suggest the sub-group prioritize looking at those processed items first.
15:21:18 [Ben]
MC: trying to minimize the set of bugs that should go to the TF, many bugs that are important and we hope individuals will continue to work on them, but they don't rise to the level of requiring the resources of the entire TF.
15:21:26 [paulc]
Finding the NEEDSINFO or WONTFIX bugs that the TF needs to look at and possibly escalte is a high priority.
15:22:00 [Ben]
MC: Are there any concerns with what we're suggesting or the process?
15:22:56 [kliehm]
15:23:00 [Ben]
PC: My interest as co-chair is that I want to know how much of a long haul we have to get to last call. Understanding how many issues we have and how many are likely to require our attention in the short term is a high priority.
15:23:15 [MikeSmith]
15:23:15 [MikeSmith]
15:23:51 [Ben]
expect that the editor will continue to process remaining accessibility bugs. haven't seen any efforts of TF to accept the reccs. from the subgroup
15:25:33 [Ben]
PC: want to know what the numbers are
15:25:56 [MikeSmith]
q+ to say that we could resolve on the call today to give the bug-triage subteam authority to tag bugs with a11ytf keyword
15:26:18 [JF]
+1 to Mike's suggestion
15:26:35 [Ben]
MC: proposal would be that the TF accept the reccs on those 18 bugs that should be TF bugs. This is cathing up on bugs that have been entered over the past year. Add them to the list, then from here on focus initially on needs info and other bugs in hopes of decreasing hte overall count.
15:26:43 [kliehm]
@Mike, that would have been my question: TF decides or delegates it to us?
15:26:49 [MikeSmith]
ack MikeSmith
15:26:49 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to say that we could resolve on the call today to give the bug-triage subteam authority to tag bugs with a11ytf keyword
15:26:54 [Ben]
MC: The more resources we put on it, the faster we can reduce the count.
15:27:26 [Ben]
MS: If we chose to, I'd propose that we can resolve on the call today to give the bug triage team the authority to go ahead and tag the issues based on their assessment.
15:27:40 [Ben]
Would be useful to have some more people involved in the bug triage calls.
15:27:56 [MikeSmith]
15:28:27 [paulc]
I suggest we make this a "default action" ie the sub-group does the analysis, reports their results, tags the bugs with A11Y and TF members can push back if they want.
15:28:29 [Ben]
MS: Does anyone object to authorising the bug triage group to go ahead and tag the issues?
15:28:48 [Ben]
MC: Not comfortable with one person doing this, but am more comfortable with 4.
15:29:32 [Ben]
Janina: I think it's a good idea. Certainly we should track the activity, but we should enable people to take on tasks.
15:30:32 [Ben]
MS: Point of contention is not going to be what gets accepted, but I can imaging that there will be some issues that aren't tagged and taken up by the TF are going to want to ask the subteam to reconsider.
15:31:05 [Ben]
MC: Agree, we have tried to provide rationale for why the TF should not take an issue up.
15:31:17 [Ben]
zakim, who's noisy?
15:31:28 [Zakim]
Ben, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Michael_Cooper (57%), Mike (74%)
15:31:47 [Ben]
MC: Do we want to go as far as authorizing the group to go ahead and add needs info responses as well?
15:31:51 [paulc]
15:32:04 [MikeSmith]
ack paulc
15:32:13 [Ben]
MC: Somewhat scarier to delegate that to the subteam.
15:32:31 [Ben]
PC: Are you talking about needs info as issues that have come back from the HTML WG?
15:32:37 [Ben]
MC: Yes.
15:32:49 [Ben]
MC: Talking about trying to provide the information needed.
15:33:34 [Ben]
PC: Agree that it is more complex. Suggest that the group be very conservative with this. If your conservative approach leads you to be confident in a response, okay to go ahead.
15:34:13 [Ben]
JS: Am willing to trust the subteams decisions, especially if decisions are being tracked. Not too concerned if someone on subteam disagrees.
15:34:59 [Ben]
JS: Would maybe look for, this is what we propose, if no objections in x (resonable timeframe) then that's what we'll do.
15:35:47 [Ben]
PC: Should be looking to expedite in any way possible processing needs info and other issues that need reply. Reason is that for every day we don't, we're adding a day to the timeline.
15:36:19 [Ben]
MC: Would you like us to go in reverse chronological order so that recent ones are processed more quickly?
15:36:23 [MikeSmith]
15:37:08 [Ben]
PC: No, would analyse them and use judgement to prioritise.
15:37:16 [Marco_Ranon]
unmute me
15:37:20 [Marco_Ranon]
15:37:22 [Marco_Ranon]
15:37:22 [Joshue]
zaki, unmute me
15:37:30 [MichaelC]
zakim, unmute Marco
15:37:30 [Zakim]
Marco_Ranon should no longer be muted
15:37:31 [Marco_Ranon]
zaki, unmute me
15:37:38 [MichaelC]
ack m
15:37:42 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
15:37:42 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
15:37:55 [Joshue]
+q to say I will lend a hand if ya like
15:38:18 [kliehm]
15:38:24 [Joshue]
ack me
15:38:24 [Zakim]
Joshue, you wanted to say I will lend a hand if ya like
15:38:33 [Ben]
MC: We can talk about best way to operate as we grow. Would like to find ways to better distribute the efforts.
15:38:55 [Ben]
Joshue: can lend a hand if you like
15:39:01 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:39:01 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:39:38 [Marco_Ranon]
zakim, mute me
15:39:38 [Zakim]
Marco_Ranon was already muted, Marco_Ranon
15:39:51 [Ben]
MS: Also some of the details about how to prioritise are good. Sounds like we have a plan there. Second part of what you wanted to do was to to through some specific bugs.
15:40:06 [kliehm]
I'll try to recruit a few people at a11yLDN unconference September 21 in London.
15:40:10 [Ben]
MC: May be OBE if okay to go ahead and implement previous reccs.
15:40:31 [Ben]
MS: If people have additional comments, please raise them.
15:40:35 [Ben]
zakim, close this item
15:40:35 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
15:40:36 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:40:38 [Zakim]
3. ARIA mappings subteam update [from Ben]
15:40:42 [Ben]
zakim, next item
15:40:42 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "ARIA mappings subteam update" taken up [from Ben]
15:42:20 [Ben]
SF: There was a discussion with the chairs. We have updated the proposed text in response. Chairs wanted to break down proposal into various bugs. That has been done (about 10 different bugs in regards to our proposal). That doesn't cover all the bugs, but it does cover some of them. Unsure what will happen if some of them are rejected.
15:42:44 [Ben]
PC: You're right that it hasn't been discussed. Our plan is to expedite these bugs and process them within a week.
15:43:49 [Ben]
PC: Chairs are meeting later today and we are expecting everyone to be responsive to requests to expedite these.
15:44:25 [Ben]
SF: Some issues that aren't as clear cut, so unsure what will happen with some parts of the proposal.
15:45:42 [Ben]
SF: Changes to organization, conformance checking, implementation etc. that we'd like to have reviewed.
15:46:16 [Ben]
PC: I'll reflect that when chairs discuss later today.
15:47:31 [Ben]
JS: TF should be aware that there has bee some questions going on and another approach is being explored. The other approach is to say that the whole section (3.2.6) is so riddled with issues that it really doesn't make sense to fix it item by item. Would be easier in many ways to start with an entirely new baseline draft and look at that item by item. Really a question of how you choose what the baseline is for discussion.
15:48:09 [Ben]
Is is being discussed at a number of different levels.
15:49:50 [Ben]
PC: Biggest argument I've heard for why people would not be in favor of publishing separately is that the text we're talking about impacts validation. In the past when we've talked about removing things from the spec is that some believe that anything that impacts validation should remain in the spec. We're not saying no, but could get into a difficult dialogue based on that criteria.
15:50:11 [Ben]
SF: My understanding is that we would progress this in a way that could be integrated back into the HTML5 spec.
15:50:44 [Ben]
JS: question to me is what is the best way to integrate these issues and get into last call. addressing issues with existing draft may be the harder way to go
15:51:21 [MikeSmith]
q+ to suggest that we try to get a high-level assessment from Henri on this
15:51:52 [Ben]
SF: what comes out of this first round of bugs will help us decide whether it's better to continue with current process or not
15:52:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:52:39 [oedipus]
chair: Mike_Smith
15:52:43 [Ben]
SF: don't want to get back to a situation where we have hundreds of bugs to deal with.
15:53:06 [oedipus]
regrets+ Sylvia_Pfeiffer
15:53:14 [Ben]
MS: Want to point out that everyone does not want to waste time on this. Any approach is worth considering if it seems like it will save us time.
15:53:19 [Zakim]
15:53:27 [oedipus]
phone died - can't find adapter
15:55:16 [Ben]
MS: One of the bugs points out that there isn't enough info in the current spec to be able to write a schema that can be used by a validator to do ARIA conformance checking. So, I think one of the people who has the most insight on this is Henri. If we can get him to weigh in and try to help us identify a quicker way forward, I think that's what we should do as an action to move forward. Would help if others can informally ask him to spend some time looking at
15:55:18 [Ben]
15:55:58 [Ben]
SF: The document we produced provides every HTML element and attribute (hopefully) that has mappings to ARIA. Should be possible for conformance checkers to use this.
15:56:04 [Ben]
zakim, close this item
15:56:04 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Ben
15:56:07 [Ben]
15:56:15 [Ben]
ack MikeSmith
15:56:15 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to suggest that we try to get a high-level assessment from Henri on this
15:56:24 [Ben]
zakim, close this item
15:56:24 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
15:56:25 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:56:27 [Zakim]
4. media subteam update [from Ben]
15:56:30 [Ben]
zakim, next item
15:56:30 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "media subteam update" taken up [from Ben]
15:57:00 [JF]
welcome and thanks janina
15:57:10 [Ben]
MS: Some offline discussion that it would be useful to have some extra help. Janina has volunteered to help out and co-facilitate.
15:57:39 [Ben]
JS: Was never the intent that John should have to carry the load on this, trying to go back to original plan of having multiple facilitators.
15:57:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:57:59 [Ben]
JS: We've announced a user reqs document that is ready for people to review.
15:59:36 [Ben]
JS: Next big (very big) milestone is nest week. We expect to be presented with a technical prioritisation that looks at the dependency chain of the needed technologies. That will help us know what decisions can be made and when as well as which can be solved first. Expect to have this by next Wednesday's meeting.
16:00:16 [Joshue]
Good plan!
16:00:33 [MikeSmith]
16:00:41 [Ben]
MS: Comments? Questions?
16:01:11 [Ben]
JF: If people can look at user needs document we feel it's fairly mature, but are still open to feedback and comments.
16:01:12 [Zakim]
16:01:37 [Zakim]
16:01:52 [JF]
bye all
16:01:57 [Joshue]
16:02:03 [Zakim]
16:02:05 [Zakim]
16:02:05 [Ben]
MS: Should probably put this at the top of next week's agenda. It remains a high (if not the highest priority) at this point.
16:02:08 [eric_carlson]
eric_carlson has left #html-a11y
16:02:08 [Zakim]
16:02:10 [Ben]
zakim close this item
16:02:10 [Zakim]
16:02:13 [Zakim]
16:02:13 [Ben]
rrsagent, stop log
16:02:13 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', Ben. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:02:16 [Zakim]
16:02:16 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
16:02:18 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
16:02:18 [Zakim]
16:02:20 [Zakim]
16:02:36 [Zakim]
16:02:37 [Ben]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ben
16:02:38 [Zakim]
16:02:40 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
16:02:42 [Zakim]
Attendees were Eric_Carlson, John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Mike, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Jon_Gunderson, Steve_Faulkner, kliehm, Ben_Caldwell, Paul_Cotton, Joshue, Marco_Ranon
16:03:51 [Laura]
Laura has joined #html-a11y
16:04:10 [Ben]
zakim, bye
16:04:10 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:04:19 [Ben]
RRSagent, draft minutes
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ben
16:05:03 [Ben]
rrsagent, bye
16:05:03 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items