IRC log of bpwg on 2010-08-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:22:40 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/24-bpwg-irc

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RRSAgent, make logs public

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Zakim, this will be BPWG

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ok, trackbot; I see MWI_BPWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes

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Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference

13:22:45 [trackbot]

Date: 24 August 2010

13:22:49 [francois]

Chair: jo

13:23:14 [francois]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2010Aug/0002.html

13:23:57 [francois]

Regrets: kai, yeliz, miguel

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13:31:01 [adam]

zakim, code?

13:31:01 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), adam

13:31:39 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG()9:30AM has now started

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+ +44.203.141.aaaa

13:31:54 [Zakim]

+ +33.4.50.68.aabb

13:31:59 [jo]

zakim, aaaa is me

13:31:59 [Zakim]

+jo; got it

13:32:04 [francois]

zakim, aabb is me

13:32:04 [Zakim]

+francois; got it

13:32:51 [Zakim]

+ +1.404.978.aacc

13:33:06 [francois]

zakim, aacc is adam

13:33:06 [Zakim]

+adam; got it

13:33:41 [EdC]

EdC has joined #bpwg

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+ +41.31.972.aadd

13:37:56 [francois]

zakim, aadd is jo

13:37:56 [Zakim]

+jo; got it

13:38:03 [francois]

zakim, aadd is really EdC

13:38:03 [Zakim]

sorry, francois, I do not recognize a party named 'aadd'

13:38:10 [francois]

zakim, jo is really EdC

13:38:10 [Zakim]

+EdC; got it

13:38:15 [francois]

zakim, who is there?

13:38:15 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, francois.

13:38:21 [jo]

zakim, who is here?

13:38:21 [Zakim]

On the phone I see EdC, francois, adam, jo.a

13:38:22 [Zakim]

On IRC I see EdC, adam, Zakim, RRSAgent, jo, francois, trackbot

13:38:34 [jo]

zakim, jo.a is really jo

13:38:34 [Zakim]

+jo; got it

13:39:13 [jo]

scribe: Jo

13:39:20 [jo]

Topic: BP 2

13:39:45 [jo]

jo: comments from open web apps security project, francois?

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13:40:15 [jo]

francois: they do have some best practices in this area, and have made some suggestions as to changes to the document

13:40:41 [jo]

... not sure anything that is mobile specific, therefore probably out of scope

13:40:49 [francois]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mwabp-20100713/2412 LC-2412

13:41:43 [jo]

francois: proposed response via link above, any other views on this

13:42:14 [EdC]

Perhaps include the document in the list of references ?

13:42:15 [jo]

adam: I agree with your response, wasn't sure whether we should link to or reference their document

13:42:39 [Zakim]

+ +1.630.414.aaee

13:42:47 [SeanP]

Zakim, aaee is me

13:42:47 [Zakim]

+SeanP; got it

13:42:56 [jo]

francois: yes, it could be a good reference, not sure what this project is about, they are not really focussed on mobile

13:43:25 [jo]

... so I suggest we emphasize that security is important

13:43:43 [jo]

adma: our one rmeaining bp is not of itself specifically mobile

13:43:55 [jo]

s/adma/adam/

13:44:20 [jo]

francois: think it is a bit more sensitive on mobile

13:44:28 [EdC]

OK, another view are to consider BP that are not mobile specific, but become particularly relevant in a mobile context.

13:44:55 [jo]

adam: OK, I did add in the mobile bit, and we did remove some others

13:45:23 [jo]

... ideally we would drop this section, but if that is too much upheaval at this stage then your response is good

13:45:29 [jo]

q?

13:46:09 [jo]

edc: best practices can be valid for both fixed and mobile but have a specific relevance to mobile

13:46:21 [jo]

francois: yes that's why this one remains

13:47:00 [jo]

... we should refrain from adding or removing best practices at the moment, there is a mobile twist to the one that remains

13:48:01 [jo]

jo: don't want to make substantive changes at this point, not sure if adding a reference is an informative chage

13:48:07 [jo]

s/chage/change/

13:48:40 [jo]

francois: this could just be a link to some examples to avoid making substantive reference change

13:49:10 [EdC]

What is the status or relevance of the Open Web Application Security Project ? Established ? Any normative / standards production ?

13:50:28 [jo]

jo: how about we resolve partial to this substantive comment and say we will make a non normative reference to some examples of security best practices?

13:50:34 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref. LC-2407, mark as substantive and resolve partial, pointing out that listing best practices that are not specific to mobile is out of scope of this document. Update the intro text to emphasize that all "desktop" security measures are applicable to the "mobile" context and that the best practice listed in this section is called out because of its specific mobile twist. Add wording along the lines of "example of such regular securit

13:50:34 [francois]

y best practices may be found at" with a reference to OWASP.

13:51:02 [jo]

+1

13:51:04 [EdC]

that all "desktop" security measures are applicable to the "mobile" context - not necessarily, perhaps replace all by most.

13:51:33 [adam]

q?

13:53:44 [francois]

q+

13:53:56 [jo]

ack f

13:55:06 [jo]

francois: I think that we should follow Kai's comment on the member list namely that we don't have the expertise, but that we'd want to emphasize the point in a future version of spec

13:55:44 [francois]

gedit

13:56:08 [jo]

s/gedit//

13:57:52 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref. LC-2407, mark as substantive and resolve partial, pointing out that we don't have the expertise to select best practices related to security in this working group and that we focused on the most obvious one that was more particularly relevant to mobile. Future version of best practices should probably include more detailed security related best practices. Update the intro text to emphasize that all "desktop" security measures are

13:57:52 [francois]

applicable to the "mobile" context and that the best practice listed in this section is called out because of its specific mobile twist. Add wording along the lines of "example of such regular security best practices may be found at" with a reference to OWASP.

13:58:40 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref. LC-2407, mark as substantive and resolve partial, pointing out that we don't have the expertise to select best practices related to security in this working group and that we focused on the most obvious one that was more particularly relevant to mobile. Future version of best practices should probably include more detailed security related best practices. Update the intro text to emphasize that most "desktop" security measures ar

13:58:40 [francois]

e applicable to the "mobile" context and that the best practice listed in this section is called out because of its specific mobile twist. Add wording along the lines of "example of such regular security best practices may be found at" with a reference to OWASP.

13:58:46 [francois]

+1

13:58:48 [adam]

+1

13:58:49 [EdC]

+1

13:58:50 [jo]

+1

13:58:52 [SeanP]

+1

13:59:09 [jo]

RESOLUTION: ref. LC-2407, mark as substantive and resolve partial, pointing out that we don't have the expertise to select best practices related to security in this working group and that we focused on the most obvious one that was more particularly relevant to mobile. Future version of best practices should probably include more detailed security related best practices. Update the intro text to emphasize that most "desktop" security measures are applicable to the "mo

13:59:10 [jo]

context and that the best practice listed in this section is called out because of its specific mobile twist. Add wording along the lines of "example of such regular security best practices may be found at" with a reference to OWASP.

13:59:47 [jo]

ACTION: Adam to circulate the proposed text ref LC-2407 to list

13:59:48 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1063 - Circulate the proposed text ref LC-2407 to list [on Adam Connors - due 2010-08-31].

14:00:06 [francois]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mwabp-20100713/2414 LC-2414

14:01:26 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref. LC-2414, mark as editorial and resolve partial. Add a reference to assistive technology and voice controlled applications as examples of other types of possible interaction methods.

14:01:32 [EdC]

+1

14:01:47 [adam]

+1

14:01:49 [francois]

+1

14:02:02 [jo]

francois: other interaction methods do exist so we should point out as an editorial change that such other interaction methods, e.g. assistive input, do exist and that other methods can be expected to continue to arise

14:02:15 [jo]

adam: are there any APIs for voice control

14:02:27 [jo]

francois: not as such

14:04:21 [jo]

jo: so we should elaborate the bit on other as yet undreamt of interaction methods arising

14:04:30 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref. LC-2414, mark as editorial and resolve partial. Add a reference to assistive technology and voice controlled applications as examples of other types of possible interaction methods, noting that new interaction methods are likely to emerge in the future.

14:04:46 [jo]

s/as yet undreamt of/as-yet-undreamt-of

14:04:58 [adam]

+1

14:04:59 [EdC]

+1

14:05:01 [jo]

+1

14:05:10 [francois]

+1

14:05:29 [SeanP]

+1

14:05:41 [jo]

action: adam to circulate proposed text on LC-2414

14:05:41 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1064 - Circulate proposed text on LC-2414 [on Adam Connors - due 2010-08-31].

14:05:45 [francois]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mwabp-20100713/2416 LC-2416

14:07:30 [EdC]

does "For mobile web applications that allow creation of web content," apply to user-generated content, or is it something else?

14:09:24 [jo]

jo: so maybe a note saying that there is non specifically mobile best practice to be followed here - for example see (cited references)

14:09:40 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref LC-2416, mark as editorial and resolve partial. Add wording along the lines of "Other guidelines and best practices are available. For instance, WCAG2.0". Do not reference ATAG as it's for authoring tools implementers and not Web developers.

14:09:50 [EdC]

+1

14:09:51 [jo]

+1

14:09:51 [francois]

+1

14:09:55 [adam]

+1

14:10:03 [SeanP]

+1

14:10:07 [jo]

RESOLUTION: ref LC-2416, mark as editorial and resolve partial. Add wording along the lines of "Other guidelines and best practices are available. For instance, WCAG2.0". Do not reference ATAG as it's for authoring tools implementers and not Web developers.

14:10:07 [jo]

[15:09] EdC: +1

14:10:16 [francois]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mwabp-20100713/2415 LC-2415

14:10:26 [jo]

s/[15:09] member:EdC: +1//

14:12:30 [EdC]

The e.g. in the original text allows the utilization of other measurement units such as em, ex (in CSS)...

14:15:38 [jo]

ACTION: Adam to enact LC-2416

14:15:38 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1065 - Enact LC-2416 [on Adam Connors - due 2010-08-31].

14:15:57 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref LC-2415, mark as editorial and resolve yes. Replace 30px by physical size of a fingertip.

14:16:07 [adam]

+1

14:16:09 [jo]

+1

14:16:11 [EdC]

+1

14:16:11 [francois]

+1

14:16:16 [SeanP]

+1

14:16:23 [jo]

RESOLUTION: ref LC-2415, mark as editorial and resolve yes. Replace 30px by physical size of a fingertip.

14:16:52 [francois]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mwabp-20100713/2413 LC-2413

14:16:55 [jo]

Action: adam to enact LC-2415

14:16:55 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1066 - Enact LC-2415 [on Adam Connors - due 2010-08-31].

14:18:01 [jo]

francois: (discussion of proposed resolution)

14:18:03 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref. 2413, mark as editorial and resolve partial. Update the text to read "The browser focus jumps from element to element". Leave the example "from link to link" in 3.5.3.2 intact though as it's a good example of mobile browser behavior.

14:18:05 [adam]

+1

14:18:08 [jo]

+1

14:18:09 [francois]

+1

14:18:11 [EdC]

+1

14:18:33 [jo]

RESOLUTION: ref. 2413, mark as editorial and resolve partial. Update the text to read "The browser focus jumps from element to element". Leave the example "from link to link" in 3.5.3.2 intact though as it's a good example of mobile browser behavior.

14:18:33 [SeanP]

+1

14:18:44 [francois]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mwabp-20100713/2407 LC-2407

14:18:51 [jo]

action: adam to enact resolution on LC-2413

14:18:51 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1067 - Enact resolution on LC-2413 [on Adam Connors - due 2010-08-31].

14:19:30 [EdC]

Unfortunately, sms and smsto are both very widespread...

14:20:03 [jo]

francois: implementations seem to vary widely from device to device and so this would be hard to recommend

14:20:58 [jo]

adam: would be useful for developers to know about

14:21:23 [jo]

francois: but not a good example today of "other uri schemes" since it may not work

14:21:44 [jo]

adam: more useful to put in with a health warning than to leave it out

14:21:56 [jo]

francois: OK

14:23:10 [francois]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref LC-2407, mark as editorial and resolve yes. Mention the sms URI scheme with a link to the appropriate RFC with a warning that implementation vary very widely.

14:23:28 [adam]

+1

14:23:33 [EdC]

.. and that other schemes serve the same purpose e.g. smsto:

14:23:34 [EdC]

+1

14:23:34 [jo]

+1

14:23:34 [francois]

+1

14:23:38 [SeanP]

+1

14:23:44 [jo]

RESOLUTION: ref LC-2407, mark as editorial and resolve yes. Mention the sms URI scheme with a link to the appropriate RFC with a warning that implementation vary very widely.

14:24:03 [jo]

ACTION: Adam to enact resolution to LC-2407

14:24:03 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1068 - Enact resolution to LC-2407 [on Adam Connors - due 2010-08-31].

14:25:20 [EdC]

OK with me.

14:25:32 [francois]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mwabp-20100713/2408 LC-2408

14:30:52 [jo]

edc: it doesn't have to be strictly decorative, for example stars with rankings in may be used to convey information

14:31:13 [jo]

jo: and that's OK as long as the alt text is adjusted to reflect the information content

14:31:32 [jo]

s/stars/sprited stars/

14:31:41 [Zakim]

-francois

14:31:57 [francois]

zakim, code?

14:31:57 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), francois

14:32:25 [Zakim]

+francois

14:32:31 [SeanP]

You may want to removet the "background images" text from Francois' resolution since you can't put alt text on background images (I don't think)

14:33:37 [EdC]

Basically - if decorative, no problem. If informational, remind developer that alt="..." become impossible, then some other alternative must be envisioned (such as explicit text in the page).

14:35:04 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref LC-2408 resolve as editorial and partial, add a reminder that informational images really require an alt= on them

14:36:14 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref LC-2408 resolve as editorial and partial, add a reminder that informational image require alternative text (whereas decorative images don't)

14:36:26 [francois]

+1

14:36:27 [EdC]

+1

14:36:28 [jo]

+1

14:36:30 [SeanP]

+1

14:36:37 [jo]

RESOLUTION: ref LC-2408 resolve as editorial and partial, add a reminder that informational image require alternative text (whereas decorative images don't)

14:36:38 [adam]

+1

14:36:58 [jo]

Action: adam to enact resolution to LC-2408

14:36:58 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1069 - Enact resolution to LC-2408 [on Adam Connors - due 2010-08-31].

14:38:03 [jo]

francois: we are still in need of a couple of extra implementation reports, in any case once the changes are made let's push the document forward

14:38:18 [jo]

... it would be better to have only green status on them

14:39:13 [jo]

topic: CT Guidelines

14:39:26 [jo]

jo: still need implementation reports

14:39:33 [EdC]

Problem is that people with action points to inquire about implementation reports are not present today...

14:39:37 [SeanP]

q+

14:39:46 [jo]

francois: we haven't received anything from anyone

14:39:50 [jo]

ack s

14:40:34 [jo]

seanp: this has been escalated in my organisation

14:40:42 [jo]

... should know next week

14:41:08 [jo]

francois: we need to move forward mid-September

14:41:25 [jo]

... as the PR stage must last 4 weeks at a minimum

14:41:42 [jo]

jo: so the drop dead date for implementation reports is then

14:42:50 [jo]

topic: AOB

14:42:58 [EdC]

Yes - when will the gateway be in order?

14:43:31 [jo]

francois: this is being "actively" investigated

14:44:08 [jo]

jo: can I recommend an alternative VOIP provider

14:44:16 [jo]

francois: yes

14:44:38 [jo]

... I will forward the message to them?

14:45:16 [Zakim]

-EdC

14:45:17 [Zakim]

-adam

14:45:18 [Zakim]

-SeanP

14:45:19 [Zakim]

-francois

14:45:32 [Zakim]

-jo

14:45:33 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG()9:30AM has ended

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Attendees were +44.203.141.aaaa, +33.4.50.68.aabb, francois, +1.404.978.aacc, adam, +41.31.972.aadd, EdC, jo, +1.630.414.aaee, SeanP

14:45:38 [francois]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

14:45:38 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/24-bpwg-minutes.html francois

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