13:22:40 RRSAgent has joined #bpwg 13:22:40 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/24-bpwg-irc 13:22:42 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:22:42 Zakim has joined #bpwg 13:22:44 Zakim, this will be BPWG 13:22:44 ok, trackbot; I see MWI_BPWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 13:22:45 Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference 13:22:45 Date: 24 August 2010 13:22:49 Chair: jo 13:23:14 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2010Aug/0002.html 13:23:57 Regrets: kai, yeliz, miguel 13:30:49 adam has joined #bpwg 13:31:01 zakim, code? 13:31:01 the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), adam 13:31:39 MWI_BPWG()9:30AM has now started 13:31:47 + +44.203.141.aaaa 13:31:54 + +33.4.50.68.aabb 13:31:59 zakim, aaaa is me 13:31:59 +jo; got it 13:32:04 zakim, aabb is me 13:32:04 +francois; got it 13:32:51 + +1.404.978.aacc 13:33:06 zakim, aacc is adam 13:33:06 +adam; got it 13:33:41 EdC has joined #bpwg 13:37:24 + +41.31.972.aadd 13:37:56 zakim, aadd is jo 13:37:56 +jo; got it 13:38:03 zakim, aadd is really EdC 13:38:03 sorry, francois, I do not recognize a party named 'aadd' 13:38:10 zakim, jo is really EdC 13:38:10 +EdC; got it 13:38:15 zakim, who is there? 13:38:15 I don't understand your question, francois. 13:38:21 zakim, who is here? 13:38:21 On the phone I see EdC, francois, adam, jo.a 13:38:22 On IRC I see EdC, adam, Zakim, RRSAgent, jo, francois, trackbot 13:38:34 zakim, jo.a is really jo 13:38:34 +jo; got it 13:39:13 scribe: Jo 13:39:20 Topic: BP 2 13:39:45 jo: comments from open web apps security project, francois? 13:39:49 SeanP has joined #bpwg 13:40:15 francois: they do have some best practices in this area, and have made some suggestions as to changes to the document 13:40:41 ... not sure anything that is mobile specific, therefore probably out of scope 13:40:49 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mwabp-20100713/2412 LC-2412 13:41:43 francois: proposed response via link above, any other views on this 13:42:14 Perhaps include the document in the list of references ? 13:42:15 adam: I agree with your response, wasn't sure whether we should link to or reference their document 13:42:39 + +1.630.414.aaee 13:42:47 Zakim, aaee is me 13:42:47 +SeanP; got it 13:42:56 francois: yes, it could be a good reference, not sure what this project is about, they are not really focussed on mobile 13:43:25 ... so I suggest we emphasize that security is important 13:43:43 adma: our one rmeaining bp is not of itself specifically mobile 13:43:55 s/adma/adam/ 13:44:20 francois: think it is a bit more sensitive on mobile 13:44:28 OK, another view are to consider BP that are not mobile specific, but become particularly relevant in a mobile context. 13:44:55 adam: OK, I did add in the mobile bit, and we did remove some others 13:45:23 ... ideally we would drop this section, but if that is too much upheaval at this stage then your response is good 13:45:29 q? 13:46:09 edc: best practices can be valid for both fixed and mobile but have a specific relevance to mobile 13:46:21 francois: yes that's why this one remains 13:47:00 ... we should refrain from adding or removing best practices at the moment, there is a mobile twist to the one that remains 13:48:01 jo: don't want to make substantive changes at this point, not sure if adding a reference is an informative chage 13:48:07 s/chage/change/ 13:48:40 francois: this could just be a link to some examples to avoid making substantive reference change 13:49:10 What is the status or relevance of the Open Web Application Security Project ? Established ? Any normative / standards production ? 13:50:28 jo: how about we resolve partial to this substantive comment and say we will make a non normative reference to some examples of security best practices? 13:50:34 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref. LC-2407, mark as substantive and resolve partial, pointing out that listing best practices that are not specific to mobile is out of scope of this document. Update the intro text to emphasize that all "desktop" security measures are applicable to the "mobile" context and that the best practice listed in this section is called out because of its specific mobile twist. Add wording along the lines of "example of such regular securit 13:50:34 y best practices may be found at" with a reference to OWASP. 13:51:02 +1 13:51:04 that all "desktop" security measures are applicable to the "mobile" context - not necessarily, perhaps replace all by most. 13:51:33 q? 13:53:44 q+ 13:53:56 ack f 13:55:06 francois: I think that we should follow Kai's comment on the member list namely that we don't have the expertise, but that we'd want to emphasize the point in a future version of spec 13:55:44 gedit 13:56:08 s/gedit// 13:57:52 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref. LC-2407, mark as substantive and resolve partial, pointing out that we don't have the expertise to select best practices related to security in this working group and that we focused on the most obvious one that was more particularly relevant to mobile. Future version of best practices should probably include more detailed security related best practices. Update the intro text to emphasize that all "desktop" security measures are 13:57:52 applicable to the "mobile" context and that the best practice listed in this section is called out because of its specific mobile twist. Add wording along the lines of "example of such regular security best practices may be found at" with a reference to OWASP. 13:58:40 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref. LC-2407, mark as substantive and resolve partial, pointing out that we don't have the expertise to select best practices related to security in this working group and that we focused on the most obvious one that was more particularly relevant to mobile. Future version of best practices should probably include more detailed security related best practices. Update the intro text to emphasize that most "desktop" security measures ar 13:58:40 e applicable to the "mobile" context and that the best practice listed in this section is called out because of its specific mobile twist. Add wording along the lines of "example of such regular security best practices may be found at" with a reference to OWASP. 13:58:46 +1 13:58:48 +1 13:58:49 +1 13:58:50 +1 13:58:52 +1 13:59:09 RESOLUTION: ref. LC-2407, mark as substantive and resolve partial, pointing out that we don't have the expertise to select best practices related to security in this working group and that we focused on the most obvious one that was more particularly relevant to mobile. Future version of best practices should probably include more detailed security related best practices. Update the intro text to emphasize that most "desktop" security measures are applicable to the "mo 13:59:10 context and that the best practice listed in this section is called out because of its specific mobile twist. Add wording along the lines of "example of such regular security best practices may be found at" with a reference to OWASP. 13:59:47 ACTION: Adam to circulate the proposed text ref LC-2407 to list 13:59:48 Created ACTION-1063 - Circulate the proposed text ref LC-2407 to list [on Adam Connors - due 2010-08-31]. 14:00:06 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mwabp-20100713/2414 LC-2414 14:01:26 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref. LC-2414, mark as editorial and resolve partial. Add a reference to assistive technology and voice controlled applications as examples of other types of possible interaction methods. 14:01:32 +1 14:01:47 +1 14:01:49 +1 14:02:02 francois: other interaction methods do exist so we should point out as an editorial change that such other interaction methods, e.g. assistive input, do exist and that other methods can be expected to continue to arise 14:02:15 adam: are there any APIs for voice control 14:02:27 francois: not as such 14:04:21 jo: so we should elaborate the bit on other as yet undreamt of interaction methods arising 14:04:30 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref. LC-2414, mark as editorial and resolve partial. Add a reference to assistive technology and voice controlled applications as examples of other types of possible interaction methods, noting that new interaction methods are likely to emerge in the future. 14:04:46 s/as yet undreamt of/as-yet-undreamt-of 14:04:58 +1 14:04:59 +1 14:05:01 +1 14:05:10 +1 14:05:29 +1 14:05:41 action: adam to circulate proposed text on LC-2414 14:05:41 Created ACTION-1064 - Circulate proposed text on LC-2414 [on Adam Connors - due 2010-08-31]. 14:05:45 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mwabp-20100713/2416 LC-2416 14:07:30 does "For mobile web applications that allow creation of web content," apply to user-generated content, or is it something else? 14:09:24 jo: so maybe a note saying that there is non specifically mobile best practice to be followed here - for example see (cited references) 14:09:40 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref LC-2416, mark as editorial and resolve partial. Add wording along the lines of "Other guidelines and best practices are available. For instance, WCAG2.0". Do not reference ATAG as it's for authoring tools implementers and not Web developers. 14:09:50 +1 14:09:51 +1 14:09:51 +1 14:09:55 +1 14:10:03 +1 14:10:07 RESOLUTION: ref LC-2416, mark as editorial and resolve partial. Add wording along the lines of "Other guidelines and best practices are available. For instance, WCAG2.0". Do not reference ATAG as it's for authoring tools implementers and not Web developers. 14:10:07 [15:09] EdC: +1 14:10:16 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mwabp-20100713/2415 LC-2415 14:10:26 s/[15:09] member:EdC: +1// 14:12:30 The e.g. in the original text allows the utilization of other measurement units such as em, ex (in CSS)... 14:15:38 ACTION: Adam to enact LC-2416 14:15:38 Created ACTION-1065 - Enact LC-2416 [on Adam Connors - due 2010-08-31]. 14:15:57 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref LC-2415, mark as editorial and resolve yes. Replace 30px by physical size of a fingertip. 14:16:07 +1 14:16:09 +1 14:16:11 +1 14:16:11 +1 14:16:16 +1 14:16:23 RESOLUTION: ref LC-2415, mark as editorial and resolve yes. Replace 30px by physical size of a fingertip. 14:16:52 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mwabp-20100713/2413 LC-2413 14:16:55 Action: adam to enact LC-2415 14:16:55 Created ACTION-1066 - Enact LC-2415 [on Adam Connors - due 2010-08-31]. 14:18:01 francois: (discussion of proposed resolution) 14:18:03 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref. 2413, mark as editorial and resolve partial. Update the text to read "The browser focus jumps from element to element". Leave the example "from link to link" in 3.5.3.2 intact though as it's a good example of mobile browser behavior. 14:18:05 +1 14:18:08 +1 14:18:09 +1 14:18:11 +1 14:18:33 RESOLUTION: ref. 2413, mark as editorial and resolve partial. Update the text to read "The browser focus jumps from element to element". Leave the example "from link to link" in 3.5.3.2 intact though as it's a good example of mobile browser behavior. 14:18:33 +1 14:18:44 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mwabp-20100713/2407 LC-2407 14:18:51 action: adam to enact resolution on LC-2413 14:18:51 Created ACTION-1067 - Enact resolution on LC-2413 [on Adam Connors - due 2010-08-31]. 14:19:30 Unfortunately, sms and smsto are both very widespread... 14:20:03 francois: implementations seem to vary widely from device to device and so this would be hard to recommend 14:20:58 adam: would be useful for developers to know about 14:21:23 francois: but not a good example today of "other uri schemes" since it may not work 14:21:44 adam: more useful to put in with a health warning than to leave it out 14:21:56 francois: OK 14:23:10 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref LC-2407, mark as editorial and resolve yes. Mention the sms URI scheme with a link to the appropriate RFC with a warning that implementation vary very widely. 14:23:28 +1 14:23:33 .. and that other schemes serve the same purpose e.g. smsto: 14:23:34 +1 14:23:34 +1 14:23:34 +1 14:23:38 +1 14:23:44 RESOLUTION: ref LC-2407, mark as editorial and resolve yes. Mention the sms URI scheme with a link to the appropriate RFC with a warning that implementation vary very widely. 14:24:03 ACTION: Adam to enact resolution to LC-2407 14:24:03 Created ACTION-1068 - Enact resolution to LC-2407 [on Adam Connors - due 2010-08-31]. 14:25:20 OK with me. 14:25:32 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mwabp-20100713/2408 LC-2408 14:30:52 edc: it doesn't have to be strictly decorative, for example stars with rankings in may be used to convey information 14:31:13 jo: and that's OK as long as the alt text is adjusted to reflect the information content 14:31:32 s/stars/sprited stars/ 14:31:41 -francois 14:31:57 zakim, code? 14:31:57 the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), francois 14:32:25 +francois 14:32:31 You may want to removet the "background images" text from Francois' resolution since you can't put alt text on background images (I don't think) 14:33:37 Basically - if decorative, no problem. If informational, remind developer that alt="..." become impossible, then some other alternative must be envisioned (such as explicit text in the page). 14:35:04 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref LC-2408 resolve as editorial and partial, add a reminder that informational images really require an alt= on them 14:36:14 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref LC-2408 resolve as editorial and partial, add a reminder that informational image require alternative text (whereas decorative images don't) 14:36:26 +1 14:36:27 +1 14:36:28 +1 14:36:30 +1 14:36:37 RESOLUTION: ref LC-2408 resolve as editorial and partial, add a reminder that informational image require alternative text (whereas decorative images don't) 14:36:38 +1 14:36:58 Action: adam to enact resolution to LC-2408 14:36:58 Created ACTION-1069 - Enact resolution to LC-2408 [on Adam Connors - due 2010-08-31]. 14:38:03 francois: we are still in need of a couple of extra implementation reports, in any case once the changes are made let's push the document forward 14:38:18 ... it would be better to have only green status on them 14:39:13 topic: CT Guidelines 14:39:26 jo: still need implementation reports 14:39:33 Problem is that people with action points to inquire about implementation reports are not present today... 14:39:37 q+ 14:39:46 francois: we haven't received anything from anyone 14:39:50 ack s 14:40:34 seanp: this has been escalated in my organisation 14:40:42 ... should know next week 14:41:08 francois: we need to move forward mid-September 14:41:25 ... as the PR stage must last 4 weeks at a minimum 14:41:42 jo: so the drop dead date for implementation reports is then 14:42:50 topic: AOB 14:42:58 Yes - when will the gateway be in order? 14:43:31 francois: this is being "actively" investigated 14:44:08 jo: can I recommend an alternative VOIP provider 14:44:16 francois: yes 14:44:38 ... I will forward the message to them? 14:45:16 -EdC 14:45:17 -adam 14:45:18 -SeanP 14:45:19 -francois 14:45:32 -jo 14:45:33 MWI_BPWG()9:30AM has ended 14:45:35 Attendees were +44.203.141.aaaa, +33.4.50.68.aabb, francois, +1.404.978.aacc, adam, +41.31.972.aadd, EdC, jo, +1.630.414.aaee, SeanP 14:45:38 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:45:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/24-bpwg-minutes.html francois 14:45:50 jo has left #bpwg 15:52:59 jo has joined #bpwg 15:53:06 jo has left #bpwg 17:04:03 Zakim has left #bpwg 18:19:46 jo has joined #bpwg 18:55:56 jo has joined #bpwg