IRC log of eo on 2010-08-20

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/20-eo-irc
12:19:31 [Zakim]
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12:19:43 [doylesaylor]
zakim, this will be eowg
12:19:43 [Zakim]
ok, doylesaylor; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
12:19:54 [doylesaylor]
rrsagent, make logs public
12:20:04 [doylesaylor]
Scribe: Doyle
12:20:15 [doylesaylor]
ScribeNick: doylesaylor
12:20:25 [doylesaylor]
Meeting: EOWG
12:20:37 [doylesaylor]
Chair: Shawn
12:27:02 [shawn]
Regrets: Shadi, Sylvie, Ian, Emmanuelle, Sharron, Wayne
12:27:48 [shawn]
Regrets+ Jennifer
12:28:10 [doylesaylor]
Wow Summer time flu is getting serious
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WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
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+Shawn
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+doyle
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+Andrew
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+Liam_McGee
12:33:04 [LiamM]
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12:35:38 [yeliz]
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12:36:51 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Topics: Expanding-collapsing functionality beta- Developing Websites example
12:37:45 [Zakim]
+??P4
12:37:59 [yeliz]
zakim, ??P4 is yeliz
12:37:59 [Zakim]
+yeliz; got it
12:38:07 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Any comments?
12:38:21 [doylesaylor]
Doyle: It looks fine to me. I like it's visual brevity.
12:38:25 [yeliz]
zakim, mute yeliz
12:38:25 [Zakim]
yeliz should now be muted
12:38:33 [Andrew]
present: Doyle, Shawn, Andrew, Liam, Yeliz
12:39:03 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: How should they appear visually, button not a link? comments
12:39:14 [doylesaylor]
Liam: I'm not sure it matters.
12:39:28 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: for screen readers it's a problem
12:39:43 [doylesaylor]
Liam: Yes when I use a screen reader it is confusing.
12:40:03 [doylesaylor]
andrew: a button gives you a clue about you go somewhere.
12:40:33 [Andrew]
s/go somewhere/get an action rather than following a link
12:41:25 [doylesaylor]
Liam: I think it should be a jump. It's hard to figure out what it is because you go to the button before the explanation. It could be CS how to set up. At the moment in the face element that does collapse or expand is set before the heading. The heading should do that itself.
12:41:43 [doylesaylor]
Liam: button is good and toggle is good.
12:42:04 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: even for the heading level?
12:42:24 [doylesaylor]
Liam: yes I don't think for the heading level it is difficult for the screen reader.
12:42:36 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: we'll get the first pass from Jennifer and Sylvie.
12:42:53 [doylesaylor]
Liam: from the logical point of view is it is hard to figure out what to do.
12:43:17 [shawn]
s/first pass from Jennifer and Sylvie./first pass from Jennifer and Sylvie - and from more later./
12:43:21 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: They all start with expand. It could be logically after and visually before. The best of both worlds.
12:44:16 [doylesaylor]
Liam: Yes, and the other possibility, is it useful to have expand collapse. Maybe to use CSS to hide the screen. From the screen reader point of view they don't need to hide.
12:44:25 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: the CSS is to hide?
12:44:41 [doylesaylor]
Liam: Yes, to put to the side or what have you?
12:45:42 [Andrew]
possibly use CSS to move off/on screen with +/- rather than doing a disply:none etc - would possibly work better for screen reader users who typically navigate by heading
12:45:54 [LiamM]
suggest exp/collapse fnality not needed for screenreader user naving by heding so instead use display none/block use position rel/abs and shunt offscreen to left for collapse.
12:47:32 [yeliz]
zakim, unmute yeliz
12:47:32 [Zakim]
yeliz should no longer be muted
12:47:35 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: The third point is visual indication what is clickable. Currently if you cover over the plus minus icon. the text is also clickable, but the mouse pointer is not changing when hovering. I didn't know any reason to do that, to not have the mouse pointer change on hover, or focus of the heading text. Any reason not to do that?
12:47:41 [yeliz]
zakim, mute yeliz
12:47:41 [Zakim]
yeliz should now be muted
12:48:13 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: Why they didn't go there, on the same line they would have other links that would be include, with a bigger clickable link from similar reports.
12:48:49 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: The main reporting elements would get the active points, and not for the ...
12:49:18 [doylesaylor]
andrew: My response is that the mouse hover is only for those points and doesn't affect the main points.
12:49:44 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: On some browsers you can click on the plus minus, but you can also click the text.
12:49:57 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: You only know that by trial and error at the moment.
12:50:02 [yeliz]
I didn't knw that either
12:50:32 [doylesaylor]
Liam: what is the logic about having the heading above the expand collapse. Not with parenthesis?
12:50:59 [doylesaylor]
Liam: you don't know to put the final bit of text visually for sighted users?
12:51:16 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: Sighted users need some clue but it will expand and collapse.
12:51:31 [doylesaylor]
Liam: if we want the heading to usable it should change at that point.
12:51:43 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Just wanted to check. Any other comments?
12:52:09 [doylesaylor]
Topics: Slide sets
12:53:05 [shawn]
subtopic: Business Case http://www.w3.org/WAI/presentations/bcase/bcase-presentation-format.ppt
12:53:38 [yeliz]
I am also downloading it
12:53:41 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: the first bullet is for CSS version. The second bullet is business case slide set. This is an early draft.
12:55:05 [yeliz]
I opened it OK
12:55:29 [yeliz]
Mine is working OK with Office in Mac
12:58:50 [yeliz]
I use Microsoft office 2004 in Mac
12:58:57 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: First reactions?
12:58:59 [yeliz]
me too
12:59:01 [yeliz]
I like it
12:59:32 [doylesaylor]
Liam: I like the one I am seeing. First reaction vaguely negative, the first quote, the legal and general quote, double the number?
12:59:40 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Ok.
13:01:01 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: what do you like or don't like?
13:01:26 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: in this business case well known people you don't know would have disabilities.
13:02:34 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: I would like to see more ethnic and geographic diversity. And the other thing to put to presenter is what your audience would know better put that instead. I didn't know the Fonz had dyslexia. he has written childrens books about dyslexia.
13:03:03 [doylesaylor]
Doyle: Chuck Close the painter with Dyslexia, and face blindness.
13:05:29 [doylesaylor]
Liam: essentially nothing costs, the presentation graph, it's a time cost and training cost has to be budgeted for. With large companies it's cheap but not neglgible. The graphic at the end is not huge but presents something they can knock down.
13:06:05 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Is it with the graph, I was trying to get across yes there will be an initital investment, the investment will take time but go down and return goes up.
13:07:14 [doylesaylor]
Liam: for a business audience they'll think well yes. That is how investments work. They know that well. What you want to know which investments get priority? The whole they could spend money on so give them real numbers or don't present anything. They can get quite grumpy at. Too simple.
13:07:30 [yeliz]
Shawn, you can also use "Andrea Bocelli"'s picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Bocelli
13:07:41 [doylesaylor]
Liam: we are trying to get them to learn ABCs.
13:07:58 [doylesaylor]
Doyle: something they know.
13:08:18 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: how would they know what they get from accessibility?
13:08:45 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: yes from everything we have said already.
13:09:17 [doylesaylor]
Liam: It would be much more powerful to have numbers here, over time you will get much more than you spend is not helpful there.
13:09:39 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: If people knew that they would do it?
13:10:09 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: They would be trying to balance what to spend on like a spring line or a local representation.
13:11:01 [doylesaylor]
Liam: Yes exactly. Structuring even you ditch that, captioning for example, but the take home is real money. You can do this much investment over this time span. For competing investments.
13:11:10 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Tesco?
13:11:17 [doylesaylor]
Liam: happened too long ago.
13:11:20 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: yes.
13:11:25 [yeliz]
I agree it might be considered as an outdated use case
13:12:03 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: The date? Ok. Costs essentially nothing, the things in that list. Does that even a lot of tools that don't do those things? Which?
13:14:02 [doylesaylor]
Liam: home grown CMSs where they don't consider have alternatives. Usually people haven't managed what it needs to do. They may not be certainly cost free. Technically easy, trivial in an engineering sense, but the implementation is not trivial. Someone would think this is not true.
13:14:18 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: can be essentially free? In some environment?
13:14:50 [doylesaylor]
Liam: less than you think. It's tough, we spend a lot of time to get the web site sorted out, money to be spent and time to do the work.
13:15:17 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: one point with the transcript for audio, that will costs money a little more for transcript.
13:15:52 [doylesaylor]
Liam; it is an on going costs, not a capital investment.
13:16:25 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: that was the other thing in the graph, there will be inititial investment, in any organization there is a minimum of training.
13:16:47 [doylesaylor]
Liam: would it cost to do extra for the web site in a review.
13:17:15 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: you can get the color and contrast ok, but the code is bad, so you save over the long perspective.
13:18:50 [Andrew]
s/you can get the color and contrast ok, but the code is bad, so you save over the long perspective/you can get the color and contrast ok with just a redesign, but the if the code is bad, you might need a complete new CMS
13:19:12 [doylesaylor]
Liam: for double A compliant. For a client that was for large number of users with JFWs support but they didn't implement right and it didn't work. The procurement system you buy is not is it capable of doing an accessible site. It can be made accessible but the bulk of sites are not, there is not a lot of support in the documentation which they need to be aware of.
13:19:24 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Are there other things you need to do?
13:20:06 [doylesaylor]
Liam: make Double A compliance contractual. Not your problem after that, if they deliver which is not up to scratch. Then you can get what you want.
13:20:10 [yeliz]
educate their developers
13:20:13 [yeliz]
:)
13:20:20 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: to get a good web site, what about maximizing return?
13:20:52 [doylesaylor]
Liam: good web sites should maximize the return. A good web site gets a wider range of users.
13:21:14 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: make sure your staff or change of staff get trained to put the material in correctly.
13:21:51 [doylesaylor]
Liam: I'm inclined to down play that a bit. That is a on-going costs. Making it in the contract.
13:22:24 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: what's missing the presentation of the main points.
13:23:22 [doylesaylor]
Liam: another thing is where it fits, your usability guy or girl, your graphic guy or girl, all should be in a group and work together. To try to present to a bunch of businessmen, they ask if it is hard.
13:23:48 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: other reactions to that? We have convinced them what are the key points thinking going forward.
13:24:02 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: don't leave it to the end. It costs more to add at the end.
13:24:13 [doylesaylor]
Liam: how do I get to X well not from the end.
13:24:21 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: what else?
13:25:16 [doylesaylor]
Liam: It is not a one off. Get the site accessible, now look at it again in 3 months. Nothing is finished. Especially dividing business clients who do 3 month cycles and 3 years cycle. The standards for what to do on schedule.
13:25:30 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: What else?
13:25:52 [doylesaylor]
Liam: figures on conversion rate, and visitor rate? Every day?
13:25:59 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: do we have any?
13:26:24 [doylesaylor]
Liam: did we get from legal and general? That was the most open. They would using out of publicity.
13:26:42 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/bcase/legal-and-general-case-study
13:26:46 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Legal and general. What specifically?
13:27:40 [Andrew]
Within one month, Barcham Online was well ahead of its best sales expectations and ahead of schedule to fully return Barcham's capital investment within just six months. from http://www.nomensa.com/client-portfolio/case-studies/barcham-online
13:27:43 [doylesaylor]
Liam: ROI is good. Doubles in three in month is a good demonstration of returns.
13:27:50 [doylesaylor]
Liam: we take the quotes right?
13:27:59 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: yes. With paraphrase.
13:28:32 [doylesaylor]
Liam: yes. I don't know giving them words they use is good. I can only speak for the UK market conversion rate is a biggie.
13:28:37 [doylesaylor]
Doyle: conversion rate?
13:29:03 [doylesaylor]
Liam: what percentage that hit your web site buying a widget or getting a newsletter, what percentage converts to customer.
13:29:27 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Ok.
13:30:23 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: we should look at point to Barcham Online. One case study?
13:30:35 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: no there are more, but that is just one.
13:30:42 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: a fun way to start.
13:31:33 [doylesaylor]
Liam: Make them work out their own financial benefits in three months. If you don't know the answer to that why are you in the room. If you can convert to 50% what does that mean to you/
13:32:26 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: That is one reason I didn't like moving the Legal and General to the end because I wanted to a grabber at the beginning. That's a grabber you give us.
13:33:22 [yeliz]
Daily mirror is a good example, http://www.nomensa.com/client-portfolio/case-studies/the-daily-mirror
13:33:38 [yeliz]
Nomensa's recommendations have helped www.mirror.co.uk achieve dramatic results, experiencing a year-on-year uplift of 93% in unique users . www.mirror.co.uk has seen a significant return on its investment.
13:34:07 [yeliz]
Good case studies
13:34:15 [yeliz]
Nice examples
13:34:15 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: maybe we could roll several of these together to make a case study.
13:34:32 [doylesaylor]
Liam: you want to do these for individual web sites, not roll them up.
13:34:43 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: we need to figure out what we want to do with that.
13:36:05 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: The numbers come from somewhere. I know some people there at nomensa. I'll contact them.
13:36:51 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: ok. Anything else. On this? Add a different way to start, doesn't come across well?
13:37:18 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Andrew there have been some changes, I have done some and made notes for others to do.
13:37:21 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: yes.
13:37:39 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: anything else? Yeliz?
13:37:44 [yeliz]
no
13:38:13 [yeliz]
I think all the suggestions were good
13:38:34 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: look at the draft of the WCAG 2 now?
13:39:39 [yeliz]
Shawn, I have to leave early today:(
13:40:24 [doylesaylor]
Liam: a quick quote of the market page. why is the web site successful about bringing in the numbers to present in that kind of format. Not good to make think but better to show it really happened, and some of the reasons why that happened. Here is a slide backing that up. In the business case presentation we start with the idea, you can double visitiors, you can double conversions. the next question is why making these improvements and the answer is
13:40:35 [doylesaylor]
Liam: A line of reasoning.
13:40:46 [doylesaylor]
shawn: the weaving together the approach to the information?
13:40:49 [doylesaylor]
Liam: yes
13:41:07 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Anything else?
13:41:40 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: business case is done. Using WCAG 2 do the same thing with that now?
13:41:45 [yeliz]
Shawn, I have to leave early today
13:41:47 [doylesaylor]
Liam: let's do now.
13:42:52 [yeliz]
:)
13:43:23 [shawn]
Using WCAG 2
13:43:25 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/presentations/WCAG2_using/UsingWCAG2-presentation-format.ppt
13:44:31 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: let's go to WCAG 2 page.
13:45:11 [doylesaylor]
Liam: is there a reason you picked that? It's a scary one to present to people. Not common on websites.
13:45:33 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: I grabbed something to show the guidelines are general. I'll find something better.
13:45:53 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: I won't list all the success criteria under the guideline.
13:46:06 [doylesaylor]
Liam: you are just looking for a technical error.
13:46:37 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: 4.1 about contrast is one I use. The developers and designers doing the color selection.
13:47:03 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: maybe you take another step further and in the documention there are tools you can use, to go next to the other resources.
13:48:09 [Andrew]
2.1.1 All functionality of the content is operable through a keyboard interface ...
13:48:11 [doylesaylor]
Liam: 2.1.1 actually doesn't work that well.
13:48:34 [doylesaylor]
Liam: 3.1.1 works though. It's easy.
13:48:49 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: programmatically determined scares people.
13:49:01 [yeliz]
:)
13:49:40 [LiamM]
3.3.1
13:49:41 [doylesaylor]
Liam: I can see why we don't want people to read the guidelines. 3.1.1 error on the form issue. That's good.
13:49:53 [LiamM]
s/3.1.1/3.3.1
13:50:06 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: It's good, the example is short, and the success criteria is good and short.
13:50:13 [Andrew]
3.3.1 If an input error is automatically detected, the item that is in error is identified and the error is described to the user in text.
13:50:22 [Andrew]
Guideline 3.3 Help users avoid and correct mistakes.
13:50:42 [yeliz]
zakim, unmute yeliz
13:50:42 [Zakim]
yeliz should no longer be muted
13:50:44 [doylesaylor]
shawn: what else? Is slide 17 too complex?
13:50:50 [doylesaylor]
Liam: yes.
13:51:30 [doylesaylor]
Yeliz: yes, I was looking at that slide. Useful at the beginning to show how the different documents are related. A way to move in these documents. It is complicated.
13:51:43 [yeliz]
zakim, mute yeliz
13:51:43 [Zakim]
yeliz should now be muted
13:51:52 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: 17 is trying to show what you get from trying to meet say quick reference here is what information is there.
13:52:02 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: does it help by showing the other documents?
13:52:12 [doylesaylor]
Liam: the notes are perfect but the image is scary.
13:52:33 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: ok. the next one be enough to show, but it is not quite.
13:52:46 [yeliz]
:)
13:52:59 [doylesaylor]
Liam: show the standards is a big scary document and the how to meet is the friendly cop.
13:53:07 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: what else?
13:53:13 [yeliz]
Ohh I have to go now, Shawn I can clean up the minutes
13:53:41 [doylesaylor]
Liam: slide 18 is great. the only question why is the ellipses around three of them?
13:54:22 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: we want the ellipses to hight light the success criteria. The success is highlighted here where it isn't elsewhere.
13:55:01 [yeliz]
zakim, unmute yeliz
13:55:01 [Zakim]
yeliz should no longer be muted
13:55:07 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: adding the words success criteria, and the circling include and page titles, and actually circle advisory techniques all apply to this 3.4.2?
13:55:11 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: maybe
13:55:23 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: I've used a similar screen grab myself.
13:55:54 [Andrew]
s/3.4.2/2.4.2/
13:56:32 [Andrew]
s/include and page titles/include the SC titles or numbers
13:57:13 [Zakim]
-yeliz
13:58:25 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Maybe use this specific example later instead of slides 21 and 22 to show how to make understanding of the techniques, to reuse and process less information. I'll ask Yeliz to email her comment.
13:58:55 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: other things on this one on using WCAG 2. How does this fit in with the training resource suite Andrew?
13:59:16 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: I think it would fit in very well.
14:00:08 [doylesaylor]
Andrew: the closing slide 24 WCAG overview, whereas the reference as use as a quick reference. The final message is use this. On the same slide.
14:00:12 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: good.
14:00:22 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: anything else?
14:01:01 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: I'll take another pass at it. Going gone. I will check with Yeliz about her ATAG comment. The last two things
14:01:09 [doylesaylor]
Topics: Reminder of review survey: Training Resource Suite for review by 31 August
14:01:55 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: do by August 31 would be good also. Andrew has the developing websites for older people ready as well. Any questions?
14:02:03 [doylesaylor]
Topics: Ready for review: Developing Websites for Older People - please send comments to the list
14:02:40 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: anything else. Yeliz will do notes. Have a lovely weekend.
14:02:41 [Zakim]
-Liam_McGee
14:02:44 [Zakim]
-Shawn
14:02:48 [Zakim]
-Andrew
14:02:49 [doylesaylor]
Doyle wish Sharron well for me.
14:03:13 [doylesaylor]
Present: Shawn, Andrew, Doyle, Yeliz
14:03:16 [Zakim]
-doyle
14:03:18 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
14:03:19 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shawn, doyle, Andrew, Liam_McGee, yeliz
14:03:38 [doylesaylor]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:03:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/20-eo-minutes.html doylesaylor
14:03:45 [Andrew]
present+ Liam
14:04:05 [Andrew]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:04:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/20-eo-minutes.html Andrew
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