IRC log of ua on 2010-08-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:50:29 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:50:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-irc
16:50:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:50:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:50:33 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:50:33 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
16:50:34 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:50:34 [trackbot]
Date: 19 August 2010
16:51:00 [kford]
Chair: Kelly_Ford_Jim_Allan
16:51:07 [kford]
Regrets:Jim
16:52:24 [kford]
Agenda+ November F2F
16:52:26 [kford]
Agenda+ Writers Meeting Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/
16:52:28 [kford]
Agenda+ Browser Implementations
16:53:45 [kford]
Agenda+ UAAG review of ATAG last call document http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-ATAG20-20100708/
16:53:59 [oedipus]
kford, agendum addendum request: Requirements for Keyboard Access in HTML5 (HTML A11y TF) Coordination
16:54:14 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:54:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-minutes.html kford
16:57:35 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
16:59:38 [jeanne3]
jeanne3 has joined #ua
16:59:46 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:59:53 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
17:00:36 [oedipus]
kford, agendum addendum request: Requirements for Keyboard Access in HTML5 (HTML A11y TF) Coordination
17:00:51 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:01:14 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
17:01:35 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:01:59 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:02:01 [kford]
Feel free to add your item to the agenda.
17:02:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.883.aaaa
17:02:45 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:03:00 [oedipus]
agendum+ Requirements for Keyboard Access in HTML5 (HTML A11y TF) Coordination
17:03:01 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:03:02 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:03:05 [kford]
zakim, aaaa is kford
17:03:05 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:03:40 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-minutes.html kford
17:03:57 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.895.aabb
17:04:11 [Greg]
zakim, aabb is me
17:04:11 [Zakim]
+Greg; got it
17:06:15 [jeanne3]
zakim, who is here?
17:06:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Jeanne, kford, Jan, Greg
17:06:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Jan, jeanne3, Greg, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, oedipus, musingvirtual, muse, trackbot
17:06:33 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
17:07:38 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:07:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-minutes.html kford
17:07:39 [oedipus]
oedipus = Gregory J. Rosmaita
17:07:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aacc
17:08:10 [kford]
zakim, agenda
17:08:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda', kford
17:08:23 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:08:23 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:08:25 [Zakim]
1. November F2F [from kford]
17:08:27 [Zakim]
2. Writers Meeting Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/ [from kford]
17:08:30 [Zakim]
3. Browser Implementations [from kford]
17:08:32 [Zakim]
4. UAAG review of ATAG last call document http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-ATAG20-20100708/ [from kford]
17:08:35 [Zakim]
5. Requirements for Keyboard Access in HTML5 (HTML A11y TF) Coordination [from oedipus]
17:09:40 [kford]
zakim, take up item 5
17:09:40 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Requirements for Keyboard Access in HTML5 (HTML A11y TF) Coordination" taken up [from oedipus]
17:09:52 [oedipus]
Keyboard Access Requirements Recommendation from PFWG: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements
17:10:04 [kford]
scribe: Kim
17:10:41 [oedipus]
Access Key Replacement (HTML A11y TF wiki page) http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access
17:10:46 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:10:47 [oedipus]
is accesskey irretrievably broken as an attribute? http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/access_key_requirements
17:10:52 [oedipus]
proposed first draft of "Access Element: Enabling Generic Document Accessibility" http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2010May/att-0020/access-element-20100519.html
17:11:40 [KimPatch]
I want to get from you a sense of what's missing -- what I need to add to that discussion and that a plan to take to the HTML task force and when we have a complete list of requirements I'd like someone from this group to come to the HTML five task force so someone with a deeper knowledge of what the discussion has been is there.
17:11:53 [kford]
Oedipus: I need to get a sense of how your work fits with the other HTML5 work around access key and keyboard access.
17:12:27 [kford]
Oedipus: We need to then take this to the HTML5 accessibility tf and get everything harmonized.
17:12:51 [KimPatch]
Oedipus:I have a proposed first draft of the access element which is basically the same document which was vetted by this group as well as -- there's a process problem in moving access element toward any sort of public draft.
17:13:23 [KimPatch]
Oedipus: I hope to salvage everything this group is working on on the access element
17:14:12 [KimPatch]
Oedipus: HTML five drag-and-drop versus aria drag-and-drop. I need to get some momentum figure out what to discuss, then meeting
17:14:32 [KimPatch]
Kelly: can we exchange e-mail on this over the next several days -- could you initiate e-mail
17:14:52 [KimPatch]
Oedipus: will repost
17:15:28 [oedipus]
Keyboard Access Requirements Recommendation from PFWG: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements
17:15:33 [KimPatch]
Oedipus: when we first put out the requirements there was a bit of reaction and we should have come through this group first but I think we can move forward constructively and contiguously
17:16:22 [kford]
zakim, close item 5
17:16:22 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Requirements for Keyboard Access in HTML5 (HTML A11y TF) Coordination, closed
17:16:24 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:16:26 [Zakim]
1. November F2F [from kford]
17:16:27 [KimPatch]
Oedipus: as far as taking this before the task force there is no hard deadline -- with longdesc and drag-and-drop things have been pushed back somewhat
17:16:37 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
17:16:37 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "November F2F" taken up [from kford]
17:17:22 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:18:03 [oedipus]
XHTML2 and XForms have had virtual face2face meetings
17:18:38 [KimPatch]
Kelly: no meeting in France but we want to have a meeting in November in some capacity to do something related to moving ourselves to last call
17:19:10 [oedipus]
XHTML2 and XForms just used IRC and Zakim
17:19:34 [oedipus]
as well as skype bridging
17:19:38 [jeanne3]
action: jeanne to make a survey asking if a virtual meeting is acceptable and to take a poll of dates in November
17:19:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-426 - Make a survey asking if a virtual meeting is acceptable and to take a poll of dates in November [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-08-26].
17:19:51 [KimPatch]
Kelly: survey to get consensus on virtual meeting and best possible times in November
17:20:25 [oedipus]
plus 1 for virtual f2f
17:21:23 [oedipus]
PFWG is planning a joint meeting with CSS WG at TPAC -- could bring UAWG issues (if any) before CSS WG then
17:22:44 [kford]
zakim, close item 2
17:22:44 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Writers Meeting Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/, closed
17:22:46 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:22:48 [Zakim]
1. November F2F [from kford]
17:23:03 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
17:23:03 [Zakim]
agendum 1, November F2F, closed
17:23:04 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:23:05 [Zakim]
3. Browser Implementations [from kford]
17:23:19 [kford]
zakim take up item 4
17:23:37 [kford]
zakim, take up item 4
17:23:37 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "UAAG review of ATAG last call document http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-ATAG20-20100708/" taken up [from kford]
17:25:11 [KimPatch]
Kelly: deadline is September 2.
17:25:50 [KimPatch]
Kelly: any volunteers that will commit to reading through ATAG-- I will
17:26:19 [KimPatch]
Jim: I will -- important because we and they are unique amongst W3C guidelines -- and very closely tied.
17:27:23 [KimPatch]
Kelly: if we bring our comments to the group that Thursday, send them the second or a day later
17:27:26 [oedipus]
i/scribe: Kim/scribenick: KimPatch/
17:27:27 [kford]
Action: kford review atag and present to uaag by 9/2/2010
17:27:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-427 - Review atag and present to uaag by 9/2/2010 [on Kelly Ford - due 2010-08-26].
17:27:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-minutes.html oedipus
17:27:43 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
17:27:56 [kford]
action: Jim to review atag andpresent to uaag by 9/2/2010
17:27:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-428 - Review atag andpresent to uaag by 9/2/2010 [on Jim Allan - due 2010-08-26].
17:28:10 [kford]
zakim, open item 2
17:28:10 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Writers Meeting Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/" taken up [from kford]
17:28:39 [kford]
zakim, close item 4
17:28:39 [Zakim]
agendum 4, UAAG review of ATAG last call document http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-ATAG20-20100708/, closed
17:28:41 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:28:43 [Zakim]
3. Browser Implementations [from kford]
17:29:04 [kford]
zakim, take up item 2
17:29:04 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Writers Meeting Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/" taken up [from kford]
17:30:06 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/
17:30:27 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/results
17:31:52 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/results#xq1
17:32:26 [oedipus]
1.4.1 "Follow Specifications" http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/results#xq2
17:32:58 [oedipus]
Jan comment for q2: "The informative note seems very relevant to the normative SC...I suggest moving it to the guidelines."
17:33:25 [jeanne3]
ACTION-425 - Rewrite intent for 1.1.x include Jan's example. [on Jim Allan - due 2010-08-19].
17:33:45 [KimPatch]
Jan: the success criteria -- the intent is normative, but the note is a pretty big exception, maybe it deserves to be normative, maybe success criteria needs to be rewarded to take this into account
17:34:01 [KimPatch]
Kelly: if we did that in the conformance claim
17:34:17 [KimPatch]
Jan: an exception seems odd in that totally informative section of the document
17:34:39 [KimPatch]
Greg:makes sense
17:35:33 [Greg]
Something like "Render content according to the technology specification, except where they would actually harm, rather than improve, overall accessibility."
17:36:12 [Greg]
Something like "Render content according to the technology specification, except where it would actually harm overall accessibility."
17:37:27 [KimPatch]
Kelly: any objections to giving Jeanne action to update the success criteria-- no objections
17:37:38 [Greg]
With that change the word "Note:" could be removed from the second paragraph of the Intent section.
17:39:04 [jeanne3]
action: jeanne to update 1.4.1 to copy text in minutes to the SC and to remove the word "Note:" from the Intent.
17:39:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-429 - Update 1.4.1 to copy text in minutes to the SC and to remove the word "Note:" from the Intent. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-08-26].
17:39:06 [oedipus]
handle unrecognized techs: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/results#xq3
17:39:14 [KimPatch]
1.4.2: handle unrendered technologies
17:39:50 [oedipus]
kim noted needs a "should" jan noted "maybe "fashions" => "ways""
17:40:13 [jeanne3]
action: Jeanne to accept proposal for 1.4.2 including the wordsmith changes in the survey #1
17:40:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-430 - Accept proposal for 1.4.2 including the wordsmith changes in the survey #1 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-08-26].
17:40:34 [oedipus]
no objections
17:41:03 [KimPatch]
Kelly: any objections to work something changes -- no objections
17:41:39 [KimPatch]
Kelly: wordsmithing changes
17:42:22 [KimPatch]
1.4.3 Alternative content handlers
17:43:15 [kford]
group agrees with just minor edits.
17:44:08 [jeanne3]
action: jeanne to update 1.4.3 with minor edits from the survey #1
17:44:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-431 - Update 1.4.3 with minor edits from the survey #1 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-08-26].
17:44:22 [KimPatch]
3.1.3 Browse and Render
17:44:33 [oedipus]
3.1.3 Browse and Render: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/results#xq5
17:44:57 [oedipus]
Greg L's comments on 3.1.3 "Just a very minor editorial suggestion: because the phrase "non-time-based media" is so cumbersome and foreign to many readers, it might help to put the meaningful examples in the main sentence and the technical term in the parentheses. For example reword Intent b from "There are times when a user cannot gain meaningful information from a non-time-based media element (images, charts, graphs, etc.)" to "There are times when a user canno
17:45:20 [KimPatch]
Kelly: your comments make sense
17:45:20 [oedipus]
plus 1 to change
17:45:37 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: I like it -- I like anything that makes it easier to process and improve cognition
17:46:27 [jeanne3]
action: jeanne to update 3.1.3 with the editorial comments from the survey #1.
17:46:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-432 - Update 3.1.3 with the editorial comments from the survey #1. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-08-26].
17:47:35 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:47:35 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:47:37 [Zakim]
3. Browser Implementations [from kford]
17:48:09 [oedipus]
Greg L comment continued: ""There are times when a user cannot gain meaningful information from images, charts, graphs, etc. (non-time-based media element)." and similarly for Intent a."
17:48:14 [kford]
zakim, close item 2
17:48:14 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Writers Meeting Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/, closed
17:48:16 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:48:18 [Zakim]
3. Browser Implementations [from kford]
17:48:45 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-2/
17:48:59 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-3/
17:49:03 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/
17:49:51 [KimPatch]
Kelly: Google document -- talk more about the implementation
17:51:05 [KimPatch]
Kelly: get that document to Gregory, then pick up the discussion
17:52:12 [oedipus]
FYI http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5
17:52:17 [KimPatch]
Kelly: priorities -- next week one hour on surveys and get through to them and spend 30 minutes on the uaag implementation that would be great, and ATAG next Thursday
17:52:29 [oedipus]
proposed text for ARIA in HTML5 spec section: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/aria-html5-proposal.html
17:52:49 [KimPatch]
Greg: keep in mind ATAG Doc is 41 pages
17:54:10 [KimPatch]
Kelly: what the gut feeling on including ARIA in HTML5
17:54:51 [KimPatch]
Oedipus: aria applies to any host language unless that host language explicitly forbids it for element x or attribute y
17:55:54 [KimPatch]
Kelly: for those that want to give some time to ATAG I would one survey and ATAG.
17:57:31 [Jan]
bye
17:57:40 [Zakim]
-Jan
17:57:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-minutes.html oedipus
17:57:59 [Zakim]
-Greg
17:58:27 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
17:58:27 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Jeanne, +1.425.883.aaaa, Jan, kford, +1.425.895.aabb, Greg, Jim_Allan, +1.617.325.aacc
17:58:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
17:58:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-minutes.html oedipus
17:59:54 [oedipus]
present- +1.617.325.aacc
18:00:05 [oedipus]
present+ Jeanne
18:01:05 [oedipus]
present- +1.425.895.aabb
18:01:15 [oedipus]
present+ Kim_Patch
18:01:51 [oedipus]
present- 1.425.883.aaaa
18:02:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:02:45 [oedipus]
present- +1.425.883.aaaa
18:02:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:04:36 [oedipus]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0046.html
18:04:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:06:27 [oedipus]
i/I want to get/Oedipus: I want to get/
18:06:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:09:25 [KimPatch]
s/work something changes/wordsmithing changes
18:09:46 [KimPatch]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-minutes.html KimPatch
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-actions.rdf :
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to make a survey asking if a virtual meeting is acceptable and to take a poll of dates in November [1]
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-irc#T17-19-38
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford review atag and present to uaag by 9/2/2010 [2]
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-irc#T17-27-27
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jim to review atag andpresent to uaag by 9/2/2010 [3]
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-irc#T17-27-56
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update 1.4.1 to copy text in minutes to the SC and to remove the word "Note:" from the Intent. [4]
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-irc#T17-39-04
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to accept proposal for 1.4.2 including the wordsmith changes in the survey #1 [5]
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-irc#T17-40-13
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update 1.4.3 with minor edits from the survey #1 [6]
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-irc#T17-44-08
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update 3.1.3 with the editorial comments from the survey #1. [7]
18:12:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-ua-irc#T17-46-27