19 Aug 2010


See also: IRC log


Jeff Waters & Don McGarry
Jeff Waters


<scribe> Scribe:Jeff Waters

<scribe> ScribeNick:jeffw

Hi, Eva, I will be calling in momentarily ...

<eblomqvi> I am about to call in now as well

marion: Are we getting an extension on the due date?

eblomqvi: Yes, until a week from this Friday, at least, until 27th, they will be discussing the week after that

jeffw: ok, that's great
... (reviewed agenda)
... Eva generated a nice outline

eblomqvi: I sent an update, I assumed from my questions that word document ...

marion: The format is something we need to address, maybe I can take a stab at it, there are better ways than the three-column format, it's not a space-saving format

eblomqvi: This is the template required by the workshop, but there are templates, but now I am making references, either we move to word or else I can do the editing

marion: We're not in the DISA, we're in SPAWAR Systems Center Pacific ,and you don't have to repeat the addresses

eblomqvi: That's fine. These are details that I will fix.

jeffw: Whatever is easiest for you, we could send the text to you, and you could edit? Would that be easiest?

eblomqvi: Easier to have you do that, but I could do a word document if you need

marion: This isn't a bad format,

jeffw: I'm fine with that, since we're short of time,

eblomqvi: I did send you a text file so you can copy and get lines of text from there
... For the conference, I copied some text from the web pages of the incubator, so it is just text from the charter, something about the goals, we can be more specific, and then I pasted some references on ontology patterns and eXtreme design
... but the main points of the paper, section 1.1 is the usage scenario is the place where we put the motivation (why do we need this format, and use cases, etc.) and I expected that Jeff/Don could help provide that

jeffw: Yes, I will help write that up.

marion: do we need more?

eblomqvi: I would like to shorten project goal and put more like a bullet list of goals, but for a position paper, you'd like to put the vision and why it is useful and how it could be used in practice
... a scenario of how this could work. Then in addition, there is the "preliminary response" section 3, a bullet list of our use cases, here we should decide what to have, maybe describe a couple use cases more in depth
... and the decision process maybe we want to put that there and the experiences with the patterns and tools there, what were the difficulties and issues there, the results and the scenario are key and we

jeffw: ok, for results is this more technical or more process/activities

eblomqvi: That's a good question

jeffw: I suggest two options, one is more motivational/tutorial and the second is more technical

eblomqvi: maybe we aren't far enough along to do the latter as much as the former
... I will try to start on section 3 and put it more in that direction and I will ask for some contributions there.

jeffw: I was wondering about who could present since the conference attendance may be an issue

eblomqvi: I would be happy to present

marion: there are other opportunities for presentation at conferences that we can extend to
... ICCRTS is in Quebec City and that's another opportunity

jeffw: (summarized our paper status)

marion: I just forwarded a couple changes
... Thanks so much Eva for heading this up and presenting, that is wonderful

eblomqvi: And thanks marion for your comments. I will pass around requests for contribution and please send me what you have.
... I can try to explain a bit how I modeled this and you can look at the actual OWL files and it becomes clearer when you see it in a tool.
... I thought about what is the minimum to say about a decision, you have a question, options, selected option and so on. I made one module on ontology, decision.owl, there in the link where basically I've modeled the decision, question and options.
... for decision, I used the situation pattern, which is at ontologydesignpatterns.org, this is something we could discuss, is a decision a situation, it is in a way a state of affairs.
... In your list of patterns, Jeff, you called a decision an "event", but I don't think this contradicts, but I modelled it more as a state of affairs, something that has been recorded
... then in a decision, there is a question and a set of options, where one is a selected option, so a decsision is something that has a question and some selected options

marion: I would define a decision as a selection of one or more options after the consideration of one or more options

eblomqvi: yes, this is more or less how it is modeled now, you have to have selected an option but you also need a question attached.

marion: that makes sense, you might have a complex question with multiple parts, but at least one question

eblomqvi: another thing to consider is that I modeled the options and questions as information objects using informatin realization pattern
... for example, a literary work and the complete book, I modeled the questions and options in this way to separate the concept from the realizations, we can model in this way but do we need this distinction and why
... what do we want to say about the abstract concept v the realization for our decision process, this is a bit of an experiment, but as we model real decisions then we can see how this works and what is needed

marion: the event that has a definite time persists in time for a limited time versus a longer term concept that exists for longer time

eblomqvi: there is the distinction that Jeff you described, do we need that for this purpose for a question, or do you need just a text question or do you need triple?
... we can think about this and when we model something, we'll find out

jeffw: maybe an example is to buy a computer, and that conceptual decision occurs over and over for different times and purposes

eblomqvi: my example, the realization is the dataset that describes the options, but you could have different datasets, but not sure that is a good example of need for the abstract option
... but that computer issues, is a kind of a decision pattern, but that is a bit different, the model is more about questions, etc. about .. anyway, we just need to try modeling some real things
... there is also the criteria and the weight and I put that in a separate module, decisioncriteria.owl, this is an extension of the core decision model and imports it, and extends it with a pattern called "parameter" and these have a weight that we want to use the criteria on
... you can have a look and see what you think, it's in same state where we need to model something real and see if this makes sense, it's a first draft
... one more thing I thought about, was the patterns that Jeff wrote on the wiki, it fit quite well with the core model that I made, cause I started reading about the "statement with variables" for the question
... and this could be the realization for a question, so you could additionally extend the decision model with that, so I think it could connect nicely to the patterns that Jeff described, so they could be more detailed use of the model
... We could extend the general descriptions.

jeffw: Marion, why don't we try to apply these models to some real use cases both domain and personal

marion: I have this project to provide information and once we provide it, we're done, but suppose we say the folks need to make the decision

jeffw: We already briefly discussed this, Eva thought her work is not inconsistent and we can extend, and we should just continue to evolve this

marion: (mentioned her project work and importance of integration of our decision format with real projects)

eblomqvi: the workshop is a presentation but also a pattern-writing project, so there is actually a call for "problem-descriptions" and you write it in a couple of sentences and if it's considered interesting it could be discussed at the workshop, so these discussions about the metrics, I didn't have the final solution, so we could submit as problem proposals
... If interesting enough, we could get proposals for good solutions from there

marion: I'll send everyone the paper I just wrote and there are concepts for ontologies for cognition and maybe we come up with a use case on that.

eblomqvi: you can take a look at the same page for the WOP workshop and there is instructions for submission of problem proposal

jeffw: what do you man by a problem?

eblomqvi: More of a modeling problem is what is meant by problem

marion: I just sent the paper, let me know if you get it, so the ontology stuff is discussed

jeffw: So a couple of my colleageus are doing a web-based decision tool that can leverage the open linked data sets for decision-making and record/store the decision in our decision format, as it developes. This
... This involves the basic gui, the use of keywords to identify the applicable open linked data sets, the use of the "entries" from the open linked data sets as options, the use of the entry properties as selectable metrics, the application of greater than, less than filters, and the use of weights on those metrics,
... This would then be usable on any open linked data set to support decisions. So we've made progress on this and I can report more at our next meeting, since we've run out of time.
... Thanks for attending and these discussions are very worthwhile and I appreciate everyone's efforts.

Summary of Action Items

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Found Scribe: Jeff Waters
Found ScribeNick: jeffw

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Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/decision/wiki/Decision_Mtg_11_Agenda
Got date from IRC log name: 19 Aug 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/08/19-decision-xg-minutes.html
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