IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-08-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

22:05:21 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
22:05:21 [RRSAgent]
logging to
22:05:36 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
22:05:36 [Zakim]
ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM already started
22:05:44 [janina]
zakim, call janina
22:05:44 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
22:05:45 [Zakim]
22:07:34 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
22:07:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.650.862.aaaa, +1.408.823.aabb, Judy, Janina
22:07:35 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, JF, silvia, MikeSmithXX, trackbot
22:07:39 [Zakim]
+ +44.787.509.aacc
22:08:56 [Zakim]
+ +61.2.801.2.aadd
22:10:01 [JF]
agenda+Identify Scribe
22:10:25 [janina]
zakim, +1.650.862.aaaa is John_Foliot
22:10:25 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot; got it
22:10:41 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
22:10:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, +1.408.823.aabb, Judy, Janina, +44.787.509.aacc, +61.2.801.2.aadd
22:10:43 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, silvia, MikeSmithXX, trackbot
22:11:08 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:11:08 [Zakim]
sorry, silvia, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
22:11:22 [janina]
zakim, +1.408.823.aabb is Eric_Carlson
22:11:22 [Zakim]
+Eric_Carlson; got it
22:11:40 [silvia]
zakim, +61.2.801.2.aadd is silvia
22:11:40 [Zakim]
+silvia; got it
22:11:59 [silvia]
zakim, who's here?
22:11:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Judy, Janina, +44.787.509.aacc, silvia
22:12:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, silvia, MikeSmithXX, trackbot
22:12:14 [JF]
JF has joined #html-a11y
22:12:19 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:12:19 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:12:54 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
22:12:54 [janina]
Chair: John_Foliot
22:12:54 [janina]
agenda: this
22:12:54 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe
22:12:54 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review
22:12:55 [janina]
agenda+ User Requirements Status & Next Steps
22:12:57 [janina]
agenda+ Proof of Concept Demos; Extended Descriptions from NCAM
22:12:59 [janina]
agenda+ Synchronizing Asynchronous Alternative Media Resources Followup
22:13:01 [janina]
agenda CandidateGap Analysis: WebSRT; WMML, Etc.
22:13:03 [janina]
agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
22:13:05 [janina]
agenda+ be done
22:13:07 [janina]
22:13:17 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
22:13:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Judy, Janina, +44.787.509.aacc, silvia (muted)
22:13:19 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, silvia, MikeSmithXX, trackbot
22:14:25 [janina]
zakim, +44.787.509.aacc is Sean_Hayes
22:14:25 [Zakim]
+Sean_Hayes; got it
22:14:35 [janina]
zakim, agenda?
22:14:35 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
22:14:36 [Zakim]
1. Identify Scribe [from JF]
22:14:36 [Zakim]
2. Identify Scribe [from janina]
22:14:38 [Zakim]
3. Actions Review [from janina]
22:14:40 [Zakim]
4. User Requirements Status & Next Steps [from janina]
22:14:42 [Zakim]
5. Proof of Concept Demos; Extended Descriptions from NCAM [from janina]
22:14:44 [Zakim]
6. Synchronizing Asynchronous Alternative Media Resources Followup [from janina]
22:14:46 [janina]
zakim, take up item 1
22:14:46 [Zakim]
7. next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe [from janina]
22:14:48 [Zakim]
8. be done [from janina]
22:14:50 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from JF]
22:14:57 [janina]
scribe: janina
22:15:03 [janina]
zakim, close item 1
22:15:03 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
22:15:04 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:15:06 [Zakim]
2. Identify Scribe [from janina]
22:15:12 [janina]
zakim, take up item 2
22:15:12 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina]
22:15:33 [janina]
zakim, close item 2
22:15:33 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Identify Scribe, closed
22:15:34 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:15:36 [Zakim]
3. Actions Review [from janina]
22:16:17 [janina]
zakim, agenda?
22:16:17 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
22:16:18 [Zakim]
3. Actions Review [from janina]
22:16:21 [Zakim]
4. User Requirements Status & Next Steps [from janina]
22:16:24 [Zakim]
5. Proof of Concept Demos; Extended Descriptions from NCAM [from janina]
22:16:26 [Zakim]
6. Synchronizing Asynchronous Alternative Media Resources Followup [from janina]
22:16:28 [Zakim]
7. next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe [from janina]
22:16:30 [Zakim]
8. be done [from janina]
22:17:50 [janina]
jf: Emphasize that all user reqs are reqs, however what the tech implications are is what we might profitably prioritize.
22:18:50 [janina]
jb: Expect my and Janina's edits to the user reqs doc by
22:18:51 [janina]
22:20:02 [janina]
jf: We agree to drop the other two actions assigned to Judy. ...
22:20:07 [janina]
zakim, drop action-32
22:20:07 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not see a party named 'action-32'
22:20:22 [janina]
action-32: drop
22:20:23 [trackbot]
ACTION-32 Follow up w/ Gunnar Hellstrom on comprehensiveness of secondary signed channel requirements notes added
22:20:57 [janina]
action-43: drop
22:20:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-43 Seek deaf-blind representation in requirements gathering process notes added
22:21:18 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:21:18 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Actions Review" taken up [from janina]
22:22:15 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:22:15 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:23:50 [janina]
action: judy to find location for ncam extended description demos
22:23:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-53 - Find location for ncam extended description demos [on Judy Brewer - due 2010-08-25].
22:25:13 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:25:13 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:25:23 [janina]
js: We have examples of extended descriptions from NCAM that are about 10 years old and we have permission to make them available to the W3C public.
22:25:48 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:25:48 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:26:00 [janina]
jb: I specifically asked for content we could share.
22:26:11 [janina]
js: I confirmed that
22:28:06 [janina]
jf: This is exciting, gives us something to illustrate what we're talking about.
22:28:43 [janina]
jf: Also, we should note that Mozilla just announced smil support beginning next nightly build.
22:29:01 [janina]
jf: Comment came from Chris Blizzard.
22:29:02 [silvia]
22:29:40 [janina]
jb: Q to Sean and/or Eric: Is this demo helpful to you?
22:30:01 [janina]
sh: I've built similar demo for my use. We can add as another data point.
22:30:40 [janina]
ec: Don't think it will give me anything I don't have now, but think it will be extremely useful going forward.
22:31:56 [JF]
Silvia: great to get these content files together not just for demos, but for testing as well
22:32:09 [JF]
for testing the funcitionality of the browsers
22:32:57 [JF]
Judy to follow up to ensure that Geoff's NCAM files can be used for that purpose
22:33:11 [silvia]
action: judy to follow up that NCAM files can be used in HTML5 testbed
22:33:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-54 - Follow up that NCAM files can be used in HTML5 testbed [on Judy Brewer - due 2010-08-25].
22:33:53 [JF]
Janina will secure the files and temporarily host on her personal server
22:34:46 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:34:46 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
22:34:54 [janina]
22:35:31 [janina]
ack s
22:35:39 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:35:39 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "User Requirements Status & Next Steps" taken up [from janina]
22:36:01 [janina]
zakim, agenda?
22:36:01 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
22:36:03 [Zakim]
4. User Requirements Status & Next Steps [from janina]
22:36:05 [Zakim]
5. Proof of Concept Demos; Extended Descriptions from NCAM [from janina]
22:36:07 [Zakim]
6. Synchronizing Asynchronous Alternative Media Resources Followup [from janina]
22:36:09 [Zakim]
7. next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe [from janina]
22:36:11 [Zakim]
8. be done [from janina]
22:36:24 [janina]
zakim, take up item 6
22:36:24 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Synchronizing Asynchronous Alternative Media Resources Followup" taken up [from janina]
22:36:38 [janina]
zakim, take up item 7
22:36:38 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe" taken up [from janina]
22:37:13 [janina]
agenda+ WebSRT Overview
22:37:22 [janina]
zakim, take up agendum 9
22:37:22 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "WebSRT Overview" taken up [from janina]
22:38:07 [janina]
sp: WebSRT is written so that it wouldn't prevent other formats' coexistence
22:38:18 [janina]
sp: has tracks similar to our previous proposed tracks
22:38:38 [janina]
jf: are there significant difference in the track element?
22:39:15 [janina]
sp: we were grouping alternatives. This was deemed too complex. Sees all externals individually, and can enable any one, or all
22:39:30 [janina]
sp: very flexible now, and i don't have a problem with it.
22:39:41 [janina]
22:40:37 [janina]
jb: Are you saying it seems to address most of our user reqs?
22:41:30 [janina]
jf: Will it allow us to deliver our reqs?
22:41:37 [janina]
jb: It's a clarification.
22:41:43 [janina]
sp: Yes.
22:42:22 [janina]
sp: supports external text tracks similar to ours;
22:42:41 [janina]
sp: Whether it meets all, will take more analysis, think the answer now is "probably yes."
22:43:23 [janina]
ec: One place it does not meet our reqs is that it is currently restricted to text files, mainly because that's all the spec addresses at this point.
22:43:33 [janina]
ec: Should also work for video and audio alternatives.
22:43:45 [janina]
ec: I believe it's clear Ian was thinking about that.
22:44:17 [janina]
sp: He's solving the text stuff now.
22:45:05 [janina]
jb: Our requirements were explicit on external files?
22:45:07 [janina]
sp: yes
22:45:45 [janina]
jf: It's explicit that we support sign language translation, and as an external file
22:45:46 [silvia]
(PP-4) Typically, alternative content resources are created by different entities to the ones that create the media content. They may even be in different countries and not be allowed to re-publish the other one's content. It is important to be able to host these resources separately, associate them together through the Web page author, and eventually play them back synchronously to the user.
22:47:06 [janina]
jf: track element seems ok?
22:47:13 [janina]
sp: minor things, but mostly good
22:47:48 [janina]
jb: and we're still planning to create a matrix that allows to check item by item against our user reqs?
22:47:52 [janina]
[general agreement]
22:48:49 [janina]
js: Perhaps we should invite Ian to present WebSRT to us?
22:49:21 [janina]
[group response, yes, in the future -- perhaps severla weeks]sp: Next thing is a javascript api
22:49:25 [janina]
sp: we had such a proposal
22:49:42 [janina]
sp: Ian's js more comprehensive than ours
22:50:14 [janina]
sp: deals with integratin issues, includes dynamically created text tracks as well as internal and external text tracks
22:50:37 [janina]
sp: Seems to be a requirement for this from some people.
22:51:01 [janina]
jf: Is that leveraging local storage? For later repurposing?
22:51:14 [janina]
sp: I suppose you could.
22:52:03 [janina]
q+ to ask whether we shouldn't add this to our user reqs?
22:52:30 [janina]
ack q
22:53:31 [janina]
sh: Who expressed this requirement?
22:54:09 [janina]
jb: I strongly support us capturing this to our reqs.
22:54:17 [Zakim]
22:54:47 [Zakim]
22:55:09 [janina]
jb: Wondering if we should also capture real time video description
22:55:24 [janina]
sh: I'm still missing the connect that we inject via js ...
22:55:36 [janina]
jb: There's a common use of captioning in real time
22:56:38 [janina]
sp: I could ask how realtime captioning is envisioned on the what list
22:57:38 [janina]
sp: there are things in websrt i find problematic, such as styling in the js
22:58:42 [janina]
sp: what we have now is ian's first draft -- he usually waits several weeks before coming back to it and incorporating feedback
22:58:58 [janina]
sp: next, websrt rendering ...
22:59:15 [janina]
sp: there's spec on how to render captions and subtitles, all that's addressed so far
22:59:44 [janina]
sp: only rendering is over the top of the video
23:00:20 [janina]
sp: i've started a discussion on this as this isn't adequate -- user should be able to define where the rendering occurs
23:00:31 [Zakim]
23:00:50 [Zakim]
23:00:56 [janina]
jf: freeplay media player has a two panel approach, transcript on right panel, video on left
23:01:20 [janina]
jf: word being spoken is highlighted in transcript
23:02:08 [janina]
sp: ian's point is that this is a specialized display and authors can easily create their own display
23:02:12 [JF]
23:03:08 [janina]
jb: issue of caption positioning is a common concern.
23:03:22 [janina]
jb: did we sufficiently capture positioning as user disposes?
23:04:26 [janina]
jb: do we also have the highlighting?
23:05:51 [Zakim]
23:06:01 [janina]
[general agreement to explicitly state a req on highlighting in captions, transcripts, text alternatives}
23:06:17 [Zakim]
23:06:27 [janina]
sp: do we need text with audio?
23:07:10 [janina]
jf: we've mentioned this in the past in several use cases
23:07:50 [janina]
ec: i think this isn't quite right, you can't have caption in audio element, but you could sync text to the audio
23:08:20 [Zakim]
23:08:33 [Zakim]
23:09:34 [janina]
sp: as it stands, there's no rendered video port during audio playback, but we need to provide one in the case of captioning for audio
23:10:20 [janina]
ec: believe the current approach is put into a video element if you want captioning with audio
23:12:43 [Zakim]
23:12:51 [janina]
js: it's important that we allow third party to provide and for the user to elect for captions. this wouldn't support changing from audio to video element
23:13:03 [janina]
jf: perfect use case here at stanford. it happens all the time
23:13:07 [Zakim]
23:13:12 [Zakim]
23:13:47 [janina]
ec: but at each step of that content development chain, somebody has to update something on the web
23:14:09 [janina]
ec: the person who makes the content available, whether original author or third part, they have to update a web page to point to those files
23:17:51 [janina]
ec: party providing caption needs to wrap the mpeg href in video element on the page where the captions are provided. the source page needn't be changed.
23:17:53 [Zakim]
23:18:46 [janina]
sh: so, how do you pause audio if no visual rendering?
23:18:50 [janina]
sp: there's a controls attrib
23:19:03 [janina]
sp: turning on controls, there's something rendered.
23:19:16 [janina]
sh: we should also have visual if i add tracks
23:19:45 [janina]
jf: if audio doesn't have track, it needn't display. but as soon as it has track, there should be display region
23:20:11 [janina]
sp: i think the logic should be different ... should be based on controls
23:21:41 [janina]
ec: if we depend on ctrols, so that displaying controls renders captions, should not also video tracks inside the file with visual media should also show?
23:22:09 [janina]
sp: don't think so, it's put into audio element for a reason. controls should bring up controls, and caption because it's a visual descript of the audio
23:22:22 [janina]
ec: don't agree.
23:23:06 [janina]
js: do we have enough to meet next week?
23:23:20 [janina]
jf: i know silvia wants to develop this further.
23:24:55 [janina]
[agreement to meet next week]
23:25:05 [janina]
jf: a few minutes to look at controls ...
23:25:22 [janina]
sp: perhaps eric and i can discuss of this on list?
23:25:25 [janina]
ec: certainly
23:25:45 [janina]
sp: last is the websrt format itself, not enough time today, perhaps next week?
23:26:01 [janina]
sp: pros and cons of the file format itself ...
23:26:12 [janina]
jf: also need a serious look at ttml and at smil3
23:26:31 [janina]
jf: as has been pointed out svg is using subset of smil, and as I mentioned, mozilla is about to support smil
23:26:48 [janina]
jf: we should give all these a fair analysis and review
23:27:37 [janina]
jb: we need to not just take the one we land on first -- we should schedule our talks through the others, so we're complete in our review
23:27:54 [janina]
jb: would like to know more about mozilla sml support
23:28:02 [janina]
jf: absolutely
23:28:17 [Zakim]
23:29:01 [janina]
sp: if not enough people next week, perhaps we can invite ian for an intro
23:29:33 [janina]
jf: sean, any thought of who to invite for ttml?
23:30:03 [janina]
sh: i've been working on a doc mapping ttml -- should be ready in about a week.
23:32:19 [janina]
[agreement that we could invite ian as soon as sep 8]
23:32:34 [janina]
[we have sep 1 to discuss mapping matrix]
23:33:33 [janina]
sounds right, silvia
23:33:40 [janina]
23:33:42 [Zakim]
23:33:43 [janina]
zakim, bye
23:33:43 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:33:44 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Judy, Janina, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, silvia, Sean_Hayes
23:33:49 [janina]
rrsagent make log public
23:34:00 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
23:34:07 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:34:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate janina
23:40:47 [silvia]
FYI: I've made all the additions to the requirements document that were discussed today