IRC log of CSS on 2010-08-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:33:35 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:33:35 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/18-CSS-irc
15:33:42 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:33:42 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
15:33:48 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:50:41 [oyvind]
oyvind has joined #css
15:53:19 [glazou]
Zakim, code?
15:53:19 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), glazou
15:57:41 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:48 [Zakim]
+David_Baron
15:58:30 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
15:59:03 [John]
John has joined #css
15:59:15 [dethbakin]
dethbakin has joined #css
15:59:16 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
15:59:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.216.aaaa
15:59:32 [plinss_]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:59:32 [Zakim]
+plinss_; got it
15:59:38 [glazou]
same thing with regular phone
15:59:46 [glazou]
plinss: zakim bridge horked here
15:59:49 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:00:03 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft is me
16:00:03 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:00:07 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:00:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.650.aabb
16:00:57 [dethbakin]
Zakim, aabb is me
16:00:57 [Zakim]
+dethbakin; got it
16:02:02 [plinss_]
zakim, plinss_ is [plinss]
16:02:02 [Zakim]
+[plinss]; got it
16:02:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.636.aacc
16:02:14 [plinss_]
zakim, [plinss] has glazou
16:02:14 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:02:30 [smfr]
smfr has joined #css
16:03:50 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
16:04:17 [Zakim]
+ +47.21.65.aadd
16:05:21 [Zakim]
+Bert
16:06:27 [glazou]
Bert: dropped call after first ring
16:06:55 [bradk]
bradk has joined #css
16:07:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.275.aaee
16:07:45 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.920.aaff
16:07:54 [bradk]
Zakim, aaee is me
16:07:54 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
16:08:01 [dbaron]
Zakim, aaff is fantasai
16:08:01 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:08:16 [dbaron]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:08:16 [Zakim]
On the phone I see David_Baron, [plinss], arronei, [Microsoft], dethbakin, +1.408.636.aacc, SteveZ, +47.21.65.aadd, Bert, bradk, fantasai
16:08:18 [Zakim]
[plinss] has glazou
16:08:29 [dbaron]
Zakim, aadd is howcome
16:08:29 [Zakim]
+howcome; got it
16:09:01 [fantasai]
Daniel: First topic, F2F
16:09:05 [smfr]
Zakim, aacc is me
16:09:05 [Zakim]
+smfr; got it
16:09:23 [fantasai]
Daniel: We have a bunch of items on the telecon F2F. I suggest we move items > #2 to the F2F
16:09:33 [fantasai]
nobody says anything
16:09:37 [fantasai]
Daniel: ok, so let's do that
16:09:48 [fantasai]
Daniel: Do we know who is going to be in Oslo on Sunday night?
16:10:03 [fantasai]
howcome: I asked for who is coming to the picnic
16:10:11 [Bert]
-> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2010/Oslo meeting page
16:10:19 [fantasai]
dbaron: there's also an itinerary page for the group
16:10:31 [dbaron]
fantasai, where?
16:11:10 [fantasai]
dbaron, I was scribing you
16:11:25 [fantasai]
howcome: I would suggest bringing a wind jacket and a bathing suit
16:12:43 [fantasai]
Bert: I added Template Layout to the agenda, since César is coming
16:12:49 [fantasai]
Daniel: Peter and I will work on a schedule
16:12:59 [fantasai]
dbaron: howcome, where are we going to meet on Sunday?
16:13:12 [fantasai]
howcome: I'll put an email out about that tomorrow when I know more about the weather
16:14:23 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS2.1 Test Suite
16:14:26 [fantasai]
fantasai: Beta 3 published
16:14:32 [fantasai]
fantasai: Changes listed in the email
16:14:52 [fantasai]
Arron: There are still more updates to go in. I have another list from Gérard as well as a couple other emails.
16:15:10 [fantasai]
fantasai: I can do another publish as soon as updates are in
16:15:33 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS2.1 Issues
16:15:48 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-56
16:18:12 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0334.html
16:18:30 [fantasai]
Daniel: what if an image is replaced by alternate text?
16:18:35 [Zakim]
-smfr
16:18:37 [fantasai]
fantasai: Then it will be underlined, because it is text
16:18:40 [fantasai]
dbaron: This sounds good to me
16:18:43 [fantasai]
Bert: sounds fine
16:18:54 [Zakim]
+smfr
16:19:04 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: fantasai's new proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 56
16:20:07 [fantasai]
Steve: So the EPUB group is proposing to use...
16:20:17 [fantasai]
STeve: There's a problem in Chinese and Japanese with place names
16:20:20 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute dethbakin
16:20:20 [Zakim]
dethbakin should now be muted
16:20:34 [fantasai]
Steve: Sometimes these are written differently than the standard Unicode characters.
16:20:36 [dbaron]
dethbakin, I muted you due to the noise from your end
16:20:48 [fantasai]
Steve: That means they would appear to be a graphic, but would actually be text.
16:21:02 [fantasai]
Steve: So I would like the minutes to note that there are times when people would use a graphic as a character.
16:21:22 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think we discussed this wrt css3-text
16:21:37 [fantasai]
Steve: I think we were discussing the possibility of addingan option to underline images
16:21:46 [fantasai]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#text-decoration-skip
16:22:09 [fantasai]
fantasai: Yep, we did that.
16:22:39 [fantasai]
Steve notes that he is not expressing disagreement with the current proposal.
16:23:28 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-137
16:23:34 [howcome]
howcome has joined #css
16:23:45 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0226.html
16:24:14 [fantasai]
fantasai: I talked to bzbarsky and he thought this was fine
16:24:39 [fantasai]
dbaron: The float positioning rules do depend on anonymous blocks being containing blocks, so we can't make them not containing blocks.
16:24:43 [fantasai]
dbaron: This is fine with me though.
16:25:38 [szilles]
+1 for Elika's soln
16:26:04 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 137
16:27:14 [fantasai]
dbaron: I believe that the visibility of text decorations should match the visibility of the text, since we've moved to a model where the decorations are drawn by the text.
16:27:26 [fantasai]
Daniel: It's predictable for authors
16:27:32 [fantasai]
Steve: And it fits the new description.
16:27:42 [Zakim]
-smfr
16:28:07 [smfr]
i meant to unmute and say it's fine with me
16:28:16 [Zakim]
+smfr
16:28:32 [fantasai]
Arron: Implementations are all consistent and draw the underline for invisible text.
16:29:41 [fantasai]
Steve: The other thing that got discussed last week was do those implementations need to change to not draw under other things they're not supposed to draw under
16:30:04 [fantasai]
dbaron: For Gecko, you might want to look at our Quirks mode now, since that's closer to what the standard now says than our Standards mode
16:30:42 [fantasai]
Daniel: I think drawing underlines under text that's not there and not selectable is confusing
16:31:29 [fantasai]
Steve: We're now just repeating the discussion from last week
16:31:40 [fantasai]
Steve: I suggest moving this to the F2F
16:31:49 [dbaron]
For the record, I could live with the model where the visibility of the decoration goes with the visibility of the element the decoration is on.
16:32:02 [dbaron]
But I'd like to avoid anything other than those two choices...
16:32:25 [dbaron]
(well, maybe I'd be ok with the idea that it's visibile only if *both* are visible)
16:32:44 [fantasai]
Daniel: Moved to F2F
16:33:37 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-159
16:33:42 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0342.html
16:33:53 [fantasai]
fantasai: If people want more time to review that, that might make sense; I only posted it last night
16:34:52 [fantasai]
Topic: ...
16:35:00 [glazou]
issue 170
16:35:10 [fantasai]
Brad: Tab and I were saying that it should be undefined now, and that it should mean something in CSS3
16:35:20 [fantasai]
dbaron agrees with it being undefined
16:35:34 [fantasai]
Brad: I would love max-height to be a trigger for scrollable tbodys or trows
16:35:46 [fantasai]
Daniel: No objection to making it undefined for 2.1?
16:36:10 [fantasai]
RESOLED: min-height / max-height on table rows, cells, etc. undefined for CSS2.1
16:37:10 [smfr]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-178
16:37:25 [bradk]
Will there be a note about min-height, etc. being unresolved for now?
16:37:43 [bradk]
undefined, I mean
16:37:50 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-183
16:37:58 [glazou]
bradk: yes
16:37:58 [fantasai]
Brad: Yeah, but I think Bert can write the wording for that
16:38:07 [fantasai]
s/:/,/
16:39:39 [fantasai]
howcome to forward issue 183 to Anne
16:41:13 [fantasai]
Daniel: I don't think we can make Appendix G non-normative
16:41:21 [fantasai]
dbaron: Can we say what it means then?
16:41:41 [fantasai]
Bert: I don't think there's anything in that grammar anymore that isn't in the prose. So maybe it can be made informative.
16:42:52 [fantasai]
Bert: This is not very useful for anything except the validator, and maybe people wanting to generate CSS, though not many of those
16:43:16 [fantasai]
Daniel: It could be useful for editors doing syntax highlighting and things like that
16:44:04 [fantasai]
fantasai: We're not proposing to remove the grammar, only to make it informative.
16:44:20 [fantasai]
fantasai: It can still be used for all those uses, it just wouldn't have any weight against the normative prose.
16:45:21 [fantasai]
Daniel: I suggest we write the proposal to make Appendix G informative, dicuss and resolve during F2F meeting so people have time to review the issue
16:45:30 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-187
16:46:40 [fantasai]
Steve: Why, if I put a bidi property on a table or inline, why wouldn't I want it honored?
16:49:12 [fantasai]
fantasai: You do. But you generally want it to be affecting the contents of the inline-block, not the contents around it
16:50:57 [fantasai]
Steve: ...
16:51:05 [fantasai]
STeve: so the i18n discussion concluded that they should be neutral?
16:51:20 [fantasai]
fantasai: pretty much. Although they did also expect images to always be neutral, and they're not.
16:51:28 [fantasai]
Steve: I think I understand why you're proposing what you do
16:52:20 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'm going for neutral because it's safer in general
16:52:32 [fantasai]
Steve: I can live with what you're proposing. I don't have enough use cases to know.
16:52:46 [fantasai]
Daniel: Steve, do you need more time?
16:53:00 [fantasai]
Steve: The only thing I would do is go ask my i18n guys, but I'm not sure that's going to help much
16:53:04 [fantasai]
s/help/change/
16:53:49 [smfr]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-190
16:53:52 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Accepted proposal for CSS2.1 Issue 187 to make atomic inlines other than 'inline' replaced as neutral wrt bidi
16:54:30 [fantasai]
http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20100815/xhtml1/clip-inherit-001.xht
16:54:45 [fantasai]
Daniel: It seems there is interop against the current spec
16:55:11 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think when we introduced used values, this was one of the areas we missed the computation
16:56:13 [fantasai]
Daniel asks around
16:56:20 [dbaron]
I don't understand what the spec means without the change :-)
16:56:24 [fantasai]
Apple and Opera support the proposal
16:56:32 [fantasai]
Arron: I ran the tests in all the browsers and we all do match
16:56:42 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 190
16:57:08 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:57:32 [fantasai]
Daniel: I will note that the issues list keeps growing. We need to close down the issues list and push the rest to errata at some point.
16:57:37 [szilles]
+1 for setting a stop date
16:57:49 [fantasai]
Daniel: Otherwise we will never release CSS2.1
16:57:52 [Bert]
+1
16:58:34 [Bert]
(It's not forbidden to publish a REC with open issues, they just have to be noted in the announcement.)
16:59:31 [fantasai]
Daniel: We should set a firm date at the F2F
16:59:40 [fantasai]
fantasai: We should also going from LC to PR, if we can
16:59:54 [Zakim]
-dethbakin
16:59:57 [Zakim]
-David_Baron
16:59:58 [Zakim]
-howcome
16:59:58 [Zakim]
-smfr
17:00:00 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
17:00:06 [Zakim]
-[plinss]
17:00:07 [Zakim]
-Bert
17:00:09 [fantasai]
fantasai: There's an AC meeting at TPAC, ideally we have PR ready for it so that we can enter REC by the end of the year
17:00:18 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
17:00:19 [Zakim]
-bradk
17:00:25 [Zakim]
-fantasai
17:00:31 [dbaron]
fantasai, voting on PRs has zero to do with AC meetings
17:01:01 [dbaron]
fantasai, it's all by WBS surveys
17:03:05 [fantasai]
ah
17:04:53 [Bert]
Formally, yes. But AC reps do get more active around AC meetings (just like we get more active around ftfs :-) )
17:05:26 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, arronei, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:05:31 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:05:33 [Zakim]
Attendees were David_Baron, +1.858.216.aaaa, arronei, [Microsoft], +1.617.650.aabb, dethbakin, +1.408.636.aacc, glazou, SteveZ, +47.21.65.aadd, Bert, +1.650.275.aaee,
17:05:34 [smfr]
smfr has left #css
17:05:36 [Zakim]
... +1.415.920.aaff, bradk, fantasai, howcome, smfr
17:07:45 [Bert]
And if we need a Director's decision, either to enter or exit PR, at the AC meeting we have the required people all in one place, no need for a hard-to-schedule telcon.
17:09:28 [dethbakin]
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