15:33:35 RRSAgent has joined #CSS 15:33:35 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/18-CSS-irc 15:33:42 Zakim, this will be Style 15:33:42 ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes 15:33:48 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:50:41 oyvind has joined #css 15:53:19 Zakim, code? 15:53:19 the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), glazou 15:57:41 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started 15:57:48 +David_Baron 15:58:30 +[Microsoft] 15:59:03 John has joined #css 15:59:15 dethbakin has joined #css 15:59:16 -[Microsoft] 15:59:23 + +1.858.216.aaaa 15:59:32 zakim, aaaa is me 15:59:32 +plinss_; got it 15:59:38 same thing with regular phone 15:59:46 plinss: zakim bridge horked here 15:59:49 +[Microsoft] 16:00:03 zakim, microsoft is me 16:00:03 +arronei; got it 16:00:07 +[Microsoft] 16:00:52 + +1.617.650.aabb 16:00:57 Zakim, aabb is me 16:00:57 +dethbakin; got it 16:02:02 zakim, plinss_ is [plinss] 16:02:02 +[plinss]; got it 16:02:12 + +1.408.636.aacc 16:02:14 zakim, [plinss] has glazou 16:02:14 +glazou; got it 16:02:30 smfr has joined #css 16:03:50 +SteveZ 16:04:17 + +47.21.65.aadd 16:05:21 +Bert 16:06:27 Bert: dropped call after first ring 16:06:55 bradk has joined #css 16:07:41 + +1.650.275.aaee 16:07:45 + +1.415.920.aaff 16:07:54 Zakim, aaee is me 16:07:54 +bradk; got it 16:08:01 Zakim, aaff is fantasai 16:08:01 +fantasai; got it 16:08:16 Zakim, who is on the phone? 16:08:16 On the phone I see David_Baron, [plinss], arronei, [Microsoft], dethbakin, +1.408.636.aacc, SteveZ, +47.21.65.aadd, Bert, bradk, fantasai 16:08:18 [plinss] has glazou 16:08:29 Zakim, aadd is howcome 16:08:29 +howcome; got it 16:09:01 Daniel: First topic, F2F 16:09:05 Zakim, aacc is me 16:09:05 +smfr; got it 16:09:23 Daniel: We have a bunch of items on the telecon F2F. I suggest we move items > #2 to the F2F 16:09:33 nobody says anything 16:09:37 Daniel: ok, so let's do that 16:09:48 Daniel: Do we know who is going to be in Oslo on Sunday night? 16:10:03 howcome: I asked for who is coming to the picnic 16:10:11 -> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2010/Oslo meeting page 16:10:19 dbaron: there's also an itinerary page for the group 16:10:31 fantasai, where? 16:11:10 dbaron, I was scribing you 16:11:25 howcome: I would suggest bringing a wind jacket and a bathing suit 16:12:43 Bert: I added Template Layout to the agenda, since César is coming 16:12:49 Daniel: Peter and I will work on a schedule 16:12:59 dbaron: howcome, where are we going to meet on Sunday? 16:13:12 howcome: I'll put an email out about that tomorrow when I know more about the weather 16:14:23 Topic: CSS2.1 Test Suite 16:14:26 fantasai: Beta 3 published 16:14:32 fantasai: Changes listed in the email 16:14:52 Arron: There are still more updates to go in. I have another list from Gérard as well as a couple other emails. 16:15:10 fantasai: I can do another publish as soon as updates are in 16:15:33 Topic: CSS2.1 Issues 16:15:48 http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-56 16:18:12 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0334.html 16:18:30 Daniel: what if an image is replaced by alternate text? 16:18:35 -smfr 16:18:37 fantasai: Then it will be underlined, because it is text 16:18:40 dbaron: This sounds good to me 16:18:43 Bert: sounds fine 16:18:54 +smfr 16:19:04 RESOLVED: fantasai's new proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 56 16:20:07 Steve: So the EPUB group is proposing to use... 16:20:17 STeve: There's a problem in Chinese and Japanese with place names 16:20:20 Zakim, mute dethbakin 16:20:20 dethbakin should now be muted 16:20:34 Steve: Sometimes these are written differently than the standard Unicode characters. 16:20:36 dethbakin, I muted you due to the noise from your end 16:20:48 Steve: That means they would appear to be a graphic, but would actually be text. 16:21:02 Steve: So I would like the minutes to note that there are times when people would use a graphic as a character. 16:21:22 fantasai: I think we discussed this wrt css3-text 16:21:37 Steve: I think we were discussing the possibility of addingan option to underline images 16:21:46 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#text-decoration-skip 16:22:09 fantasai: Yep, we did that. 16:22:39 Steve notes that he is not expressing disagreement with the current proposal. 16:23:28 http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-137 16:23:34 howcome has joined #css 16:23:45 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0226.html 16:24:14 fantasai: I talked to bzbarsky and he thought this was fine 16:24:39 dbaron: The float positioning rules do depend on anonymous blocks being containing blocks, so we can't make them not containing blocks. 16:24:43 dbaron: This is fine with me though. 16:25:38 +1 for Elika's soln 16:26:04 RESOLVED: proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 137 16:27:14 dbaron: I believe that the visibility of text decorations should match the visibility of the text, since we've moved to a model where the decorations are drawn by the text. 16:27:26 Daniel: It's predictable for authors 16:27:32 Steve: And it fits the new description. 16:27:42 -smfr 16:28:07 i meant to unmute and say it's fine with me 16:28:16 +smfr 16:28:32 Arron: Implementations are all consistent and draw the underline for invisible text. 16:29:41 Steve: The other thing that got discussed last week was do those implementations need to change to not draw under other things they're not supposed to draw under 16:30:04 dbaron: For Gecko, you might want to look at our Quirks mode now, since that's closer to what the standard now says than our Standards mode 16:30:42 Daniel: I think drawing underlines under text that's not there and not selectable is confusing 16:31:29 Steve: We're now just repeating the discussion from last week 16:31:40 Steve: I suggest moving this to the F2F 16:31:49 For the record, I could live with the model where the visibility of the decoration goes with the visibility of the element the decoration is on. 16:32:02 But I'd like to avoid anything other than those two choices... 16:32:25 (well, maybe I'd be ok with the idea that it's visibile only if *both* are visible) 16:32:44 Daniel: Moved to F2F 16:33:37 http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-159 16:33:42 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0342.html 16:33:53 fantasai: If people want more time to review that, that might make sense; I only posted it last night 16:34:52 Topic: ... 16:35:00 issue 170 16:35:10 Brad: Tab and I were saying that it should be undefined now, and that it should mean something in CSS3 16:35:20 dbaron agrees with it being undefined 16:35:34 Brad: I would love max-height to be a trigger for scrollable tbodys or trows 16:35:46 Daniel: No objection to making it undefined for 2.1? 16:36:10 RESOLED: min-height / max-height on table rows, cells, etc. undefined for CSS2.1 16:37:10 http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-178 16:37:25 Will there be a note about min-height, etc. being unresolved for now? 16:37:43 undefined, I mean 16:37:50 http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-183 16:37:58 bradk: yes 16:37:58 Brad: Yeah, but I think Bert can write the wording for that 16:38:07 s/:/,/ 16:39:39 howcome to forward issue 183 to Anne 16:41:13 Daniel: I don't think we can make Appendix G non-normative 16:41:21 dbaron: Can we say what it means then? 16:41:41 Bert: I don't think there's anything in that grammar anymore that isn't in the prose. So maybe it can be made informative. 16:42:52 Bert: This is not very useful for anything except the validator, and maybe people wanting to generate CSS, though not many of those 16:43:16 Daniel: It could be useful for editors doing syntax highlighting and things like that 16:44:04 fantasai: We're not proposing to remove the grammar, only to make it informative. 16:44:20 fantasai: It can still be used for all those uses, it just wouldn't have any weight against the normative prose. 16:45:21 Daniel: I suggest we write the proposal to make Appendix G informative, dicuss and resolve during F2F meeting so people have time to review the issue 16:45:30 http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-187 16:46:40 Steve: Why, if I put a bidi property on a table or inline, why wouldn't I want it honored? 16:49:12 fantasai: You do. But you generally want it to be affecting the contents of the inline-block, not the contents around it 16:50:57 Steve: ... 16:51:05 STeve: so the i18n discussion concluded that they should be neutral? 16:51:20 fantasai: pretty much. Although they did also expect images to always be neutral, and they're not. 16:51:28 Steve: I think I understand why you're proposing what you do 16:52:20 fantasai: I'm going for neutral because it's safer in general 16:52:32 Steve: I can live with what you're proposing. I don't have enough use cases to know. 16:52:46 Daniel: Steve, do you need more time? 16:53:00 Steve: The only thing I would do is go ask my i18n guys, but I'm not sure that's going to help much 16:53:04 s/help/change/ 16:53:49 http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-190 16:53:52 RESOLVED: Accepted proposal for CSS2.1 Issue 187 to make atomic inlines other than 'inline' replaced as neutral wrt bidi 16:54:30 http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20100815/xhtml1/clip-inherit-001.xht 16:54:45 Daniel: It seems there is interop against the current spec 16:55:11 fantasai: I think when we introduced used values, this was one of the areas we missed the computation 16:56:13 Daniel asks around 16:56:20 I don't understand what the spec means without the change :-) 16:56:24 Apple and Opera support the proposal 16:56:32 Arron: I ran the tests in all the browsers and we all do match 16:56:42 RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 190 16:57:08 -[Microsoft] 16:57:32 Daniel: I will note that the issues list keeps growing. We need to close down the issues list and push the rest to errata at some point. 16:57:37 +1 for setting a stop date 16:57:49 Daniel: Otherwise we will never release CSS2.1 16:57:52 +1 16:58:34 (It's not forbidden to publish a REC with open issues, they just have to be noted in the announcement.) 16:59:31 Daniel: We should set a firm date at the F2F 16:59:40 fantasai: We should also going from LC to PR, if we can 16:59:54 -dethbakin 16:59:57 -David_Baron 16:59:58 -howcome 16:59:58 -smfr 17:00:00 -SteveZ 17:00:06 -[plinss] 17:00:07 -Bert 17:00:09 fantasai: There's an AC meeting at TPAC, ideally we have PR ready for it so that we can enter REC by the end of the year 17:00:18 Meeting closed. 17:00:19 -bradk 17:00:25 -fantasai 17:00:31 fantasai, voting on PRs has zero to do with AC meetings 17:01:01 fantasai, it's all by WBS surveys 17:03:05 ah 17:04:53 Formally, yes. But AC reps do get more active around AC meetings (just like we get more active around ftfs :-) ) 17:05:26 disconnecting the lone participant, arronei, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM 17:05:31 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended 17:05:33 Attendees were David_Baron, +1.858.216.aaaa, arronei, [Microsoft], +1.617.650.aabb, dethbakin, +1.408.636.aacc, glazou, SteveZ, +47.21.65.aadd, Bert, +1.650.275.aaee, 17:05:34 smfr has left #css 17:05:36 ... +1.415.920.aaff, bradk, fantasai, howcome, smfr 17:07:45 And if we need a Director's decision, either to enter or exit PR, at the AC meeting we have the required people all in one place, no need for a hard-to-schedule telcon. 17:09:28 dethbakin has left #css 17:09:56 Curt` has joined #css 17:22:16 glazou has joined #css 18:07:42 jdaggett has joined #css 18:42:40 Zakim has left #CSS 18:45:42 nimbupani has joined #css 20:38:18 dbaron has joined #css 21:30:25 shepazu has joined #css 21:46:44 shepazu has joined #css 22:11:44 SteveZ2 has joined #css 22:47:34 Curt`` has joined #css