19:01:12 RRSAgent has joined #aria 19:01:12 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/17-aria-irc 19:01:21 zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(ARIA 19:01:21 ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(Aria)3:00PM already started 19:01:28 Stevef has joined #aria 19:01:32 zakim, call janina 19:01:32 ok, janina; the call is being made 19:01:34 +Janina 19:05:40 +[Microsoft] 19:06:37 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/altspecification 19:10:14 scribe: janina 19:10:48 sf: We need change proposal review by Rich and Cynthia, then 19:11:02 sf: there are a few sections that need completion following a discussion among us. 19:12:32 sf: Let's start with updated spec doc -- Made mapping changes from notes and memory -- Are they OK? 19:13:10 sf: Tried to include everything that had been cited as ommited. 19:13:19 cs: What about merging the tables? 19:13:43 sf: First table supposed to semantics not overwritable 19:14:36 +Rich 19:14:57 richardschwerdtfe has joined #aria 19:15:55 cs: Seems if we had one big table, it would meet Maciej's complaint that he couldn't find something. 19:16:32 http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/aria-html5-proposal.html 19:16:52 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5 19:17:26 cyns has joined #aria 19:18:48 sf: looking at sf: Also added caption. Doesn't seem it should be restricted 19:19:46 cs: Text from caption might go into the name, and we should have ARIA on it because someone could make it clickable. 19:20:17 sf: put norole for area because it's not rendered 19:20:24 cs: area without rhref valid? 19:20:25 sf: no 19:20:35 cs: what if tabindex? 19:20:37 sf: don't know 19:21:01 cs: We should treat like span anything without a reason why it shouldn't be overwritten 19:21:26 rs: Chaas wants to map area on top of canvas, so why not treat like a div? 19:21:43 rs: Is it overwritable? 19:21:49 If the area element has no href attribute, then the area represented by the element cannot be selected, and the alt attribute must be omitted. 19:21:56 sf: No, because not rendered and has no href 19:22:19 cs: So how is an area without href conformant? 19:22:34 cs: Can live with either way. 19:22:52 cs: Prefer default to everything allowed. 19:22:54 rs: Agree 19:23:08 rs: If applied to canvas, will need aria role 19:23:25 sf: OK. 19:23:46 sf: Put in "elements without restrictions?" 19:23:51 cs: yes 19:23:52 rs: yes 19:24:16 sf: So do we agree to a single table? 19:24:22 cs: Yes, will be easier to read. 19:25:17 rs: Yes, as long as it's clear what applies where. 19:26:12 sf: Looking now at hgroup ... 19:27:04 sf: Overides? Which? 19:27:10 cs: Anything. It's a span 19:27:19 cs: My default answer, I suspect. 19:27:31 sf: But then we need to say why. 19:27:46 cs: Unless there's a good reason to limit, don't limit. 19:28:12 sf: th element, no column or row header 19:29:19 sf: Is it inconsistent with our table guidance? 19:29:29 cs: But people repurpose them. 19:29:41 sf: difference between changed and additional semantics. 19:29:53 sf: This is a clearly defined a11y element to provide info about data tables 19:30:06 cs: existed before html had a11y ... 19:30:25 sf: But when it's overwritten then you no longer provide a11y info about the table 19:30:47 cs: But then what do you do when someone puts a onclick on th--which is common, to sort for instance 19:31:39 cs: I could wish aria were additive and not substitutional ... 19:33:07 sf: Concerned we shouldn't allow overwrite to turn th into a button, for instance 19:33:17 cs: but that's what people do 19:35:09 sf: OK, will go with the group consensus, but I can't defend it. 19:38:43 sf: So, what can they be overwritten with? 19:38:57 rs: We don't prohibit now, right? 19:40:42 [Steve not happy with this ...] 19:40:56 sf: Most of this has been stable for months ... but now we're saying something different 19:41:09 rs: We said we're reviewing the whole thing 19:41:14 sf: the parts that are changed 19:41:47 cs: Think sf wants help on recent changes ... 19:42:35 sf: So what role allowed on table? 19:42:41 cs: widgets and presentation, not para 19:42:53 sf: But that's what I have! 19:43:19 rs: Take from the other direction, what roles should it not support? 19:45:26 cs: We need to be consistent in our logic. 19:46:41 sf: By that token we should treat href and all struct the same ... 19:46:43 rs: yes 19:49:59 cs: If we can come up with a rule for these -- It's the one-off's that will get us turned down 19:50:32 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5 19:53:34 sf: So, we're talking about incorrect html use, is it better with aria addition, or not? 19:59:03 sf: So, we're talking about incorrect html use, is it better with aria addition, or not?[group going through items] 20:02:49 sf: People, please review the entire proposal and provide comments, changes, additions ... 20:02:55 cs: Can I send you a word doc? 20:02:57 sf: yes 20:03:21 sf: We didn't finish, so will need another meeting. 20:04:23 sf: Don't know what to do with hgroup ... 20:04:33 cs: Heading, and refs inside presentation 20:04:39 sf: so now this is new 20:05:16 cs: There are two things here, logically it should function like a heading 20:05:52 sf: But new elements have a history of being misused, so it could be argued we should support best practice. 20:06:19 cs: If aria2 allows us to be additive, we will need to make sure we can add that to HTML5. 20:08:01 sf: Cynthia, can provide feedback? 20:08:03 cs: yes 20:08:09 rs: Yes, but not tonight 20:35:53 -??P1 20:38:24 -[Microsoft] 20:41:06 -Rich 20:41:07 -Janina 20:41:07 WAI_PFWG(Aria)3:00PM has ended 20:41:09 Attendees were Janina, [Microsoft], Rich 20:42:18 zakim, bye 20:42:18 Zakim has left #aria 20:42:25 rrsagent make log public 20:42:33 rrsagent make minutes 20:42:38 rrsagent, make log public 20:42:45 rrsagent, make minutes 20:42:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/17-aria-minutes.html janina 20:42:55 janina has left #aria