16:04:59 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:04:59 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-ua-irc 16:05:01 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:05:01 Zakim has joined #ua 16:05:03 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:05:03 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 55 minutes 16:05:04 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:05:04 Date: 12 August 2010 16:13:10 Agenda+ F2F in Leon, France (go/nogo) 16:13:11 Agenda+ Writers Meeting Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/ 16:13:33 Chair: JimAllan_KellyFord 16:53:41 kford has joined #ua 16:55:34 zakim, agenda? 16:55:34 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda: 16:55:35 1. F2F in Leon, France (go/nogo) [from AllanJ] 16:55:37 2. Writers Meeting Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/ [from AllanJ] 16:57:36 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:57:43 +AllanJ 17:00:18 +Jeanne 17:00:35 jeanne has joined #ua 17:00:39 +[Microsoft] 17:00:48 zakim, microsoft is kford 17:00:48 +kford; got it 17:01:48 Greg has joined #ua 17:03:06 +Greg 17:08:45 +??P8 17:09:14 Jan has joined #ua 17:09:45 ok will try again 17:09:49 in a word no, just abig oloud buzz. 17:09:50 -??P8 17:09:53 let me know when it stops. I can't listen to it. 17:10:25 +??P8 17:10:43 zakim, ??P8 is really Jan 17:10:43 +Jan; got it 17:11:13 regrets: MarkkuH 17:13:02 scribe: jeanne 17:13:26 zakim, take up next item 17:13:26 agendum 1. "F2F in Leon, France (go/nogo)" taken up [from AllanJ] 17:14:04 JA: Last May many said they could do it, maybe. Now it is time for plane reservations. 17:14:34 GL: I will be in FLorida, so it would have to be the later part of the week. 17:15:18 TPAC=Nov1-5 17:15:45 UAAG meets Thursday-Friday 17:16:05 JR: I can't make it in person 17:16:08 JR: Can't make it in person 17:16:18 JA: Simon will be in the US for a conference 17:20:43 discussion continues, video conference, different location 17:21:07 KF: last weeks video conference call was very useful 17:21:10 KF: For those who want to be the representative of user agent, it would be useful to go, but for most people it is not. 17:21:31 JA: But we don't get the joy of breakfast, lunch and dinner together. :) 17:21:56 KF: I am not convinced that going to France to do that is the best use of time and financial resources. 17:23:20 JS: It is ironic that our European members are the ones that can't attend. We wanted to have it at TPAC because it was easier for the EU members. 17:23:53 KF: I cannot attend on my own money, because Microsoft won't allow it. 17:25:10 KF: HTML is too big, and we can't interface with them directly. We have to go through PF and A11y Taskforce, so that is not a good reason. There are serendipitous conversations, I don't mean to discvount that, but I don't think it is worth it. 17:25:31 Resolution: UAAG will not attend TPAC and meet there. 17:25:48 action: Jeanne to contact W3C admin to change our meeting. 17:25:49 Created ACTION-424 - Contact W3C admin to change our meeting. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-08-19]. 17:26:31 Scribe: kford 17:26:56 zakim, close item 1 17:26:56 agendum 1, F2F in Leon, France (go/nogo), closed 17:26:57 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 17:26:59 2. Writers Meeting Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/ [from AllanJ] 17:27:13 agenda+ Longdesc 17:27:36 rrsagent, make minutes 17:27:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-ua-minutes.html kford 17:27:47 zakim, take up item 3 17:27:47 agendum 3. "Longdesc" taken up [from kford] 17:28:07 JA: Issue around longdesc came up at wai CG meeting. 17:28:38 JA: HTML5 working group has saidd we are not going to support longdesc in html5. 17:28:52 HTML5 Decision: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Aug/att-0112/issue-30-decision.html 17:29:04 JA: Said current laws and specifications were not valid reasons for including. 17:29:30 rrsagent, close action-424 17:29:30 I'm logging. I don't understand 'close action-424', jeanne. Try /msg RRSAgent help 17:29:32 WAICG Resolution: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5.html 17:29:41 close action-424 17:29:41 JA: There an an effort to have this reversed or file a formal objection. 17:29:41 ACTION-424 Contact W3C admin to change our meeting. closed 17:30:56 GL: What was the reasoning saying this was harmful? 17:31:07 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Aug/att-0112/issue-30-decision.html 17:31:13 JR: They think it hasn't been used and no good use cases. 17:32:01 JA: They said WCAG, 508 and other international law was not sufficient reason. 17:32:44 GL: When I've tried to use longdesc I've been a bit frustrated by the syntax. 17:32:48 GL: I am frustrated by the syntax they showed - requiring a separate page rather than having the option of having it in the same page. 17:32:57 +KimPatch 17:33:09 JR: Good point, there are problems with longdesc. ARIA DescribedBy is an attempt around this. 17:33:23 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:33:36 JR: People recognize that Longdesc is flawed. But PF don't want it Obsoleted. They want deprecated by still conforming. 17:33:37 JR: PF is concerns about the jump to straight non-conforming, prefer deprication first. 17:34:41 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Aug/att-0112/issue-30-decision.html 17:35:20 Group brings Kim current on discussion. 17:38:10 Current Chairs are: Sam Ruby, IBM, 17:38:10 Paul Cotton, Microsoft, 17:38:10 Maciej Stachowiak, Apple 17:40:14 KP: there should be a converter that automatically changes longdesc to ARIA describedby. 17:41:50 GL: How much is it used? Can google get data? 17:41:58 Group continues to discuss longdesc. 17:42:59 JS: that is how it has been justified in the past - because use is low, that justifies removing it. But it ignores all the use cases that are behind firewalls, like financial houses that use it for bar and pie charts are behind personal passwords of their clients. 17:43:52 KF: The real problem is the obsolete status for all the companies that have done the right thing, it penalizes them for putting accessibility in, by making their web pages invalid. 17:44:38 JA: We won't solve it here, but we need to decide what, if anything, we should do as a group. 17:44:58 JA: Four us as a group to we want to do our own thing, join any formal exception or let this pass? 17:46:23 JS: I think we should get our employers to object. 17:46:37 KF: I think we should object as a working group. 17:47:38 KF: the way this was written in HTML4, any browser that didn't implement the technology doesn't conform to UAAG 1 17:48:54 GL: the UAAG 2 says "implement the technology as it is spec'd" 17:49:40 JR: UAAG 1.0 has Level A - support accessibility features. Level AA - implement the spec. 17:51:13 GL: I think this is not directly our issue - PF is really the group that should be working on it. 17:51:42 KF: If there is an objection filed and a way for UAAG to sign on to that, I would like to do that. 17:52:22 JR: longdesc is still a valid attribute of HTML4. What do you think browsers will do in the meantime? 17:52:43 KF: It will still be in the DOM. I don't see that changing. 17:53:22 JR: It is a political issue in how HTML5 deals with PF, but is it a real issue, if that is the way that the browsers will deal with it. 17:53:57 KF: I think it is a big deal in the way that we as WAI representatives were dealt with by HTML5. 17:54:29 JR: It is not a good idea for User agents to have large backward compatibility break. 17:54:57 KF: So there should be a way to make it better. Is there a way to get resources together to make sure that accessibility is taken care of in some way. 17:56:10 JR: If HTML5 is going to break backward compatibility, then they should bring in ARIA natively. 17:57:01 KF: If we have the opportunity to sign on to a formal objection, who would agree to that? 17:57:23 KP: and I would like to see a solution to convert people to ARIA describedby. 17:58:28 JR: UAAG is concerned about the loss of backward compatibility whenever is concerns the ability of a browser to bring an accessibility feature to its users. 18:01:29 KF: Even though the general browser support of longdesc is poor, the assistive technology companies have implemenated longdesc. 18:01:55 ... Don't throw out the old technology, you can discourage its use, but don't throw it out. 18:02:55 KP: if something is different, it is more difficult. There are accessibility issues with slow - tools are slow and they don't have to be. 18:03:39 ... the net neutrality is a related issue -- that sites that people rely on for accessibility are more likely to land in the slow lane. So people who need accessibility will be worse off. 18:04:54 JR: Every major platform has accessibility APIs supporting longdesc. Why would that engineering effort be made if it wasn't useful. 18:06:06 ... describedby has it's own flaws. 18:06:36 JS: Would like to suggest postponing this discussion until we hear what PF will do and what John Foliot's proposal look like 18:06:43 zakim, close item 3 18:06:43 agendum 3, Longdesc, closed 18:06:45 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 18:06:46 [group agrees} 18:06:47 2. Writers Meeting Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/ [from AllanJ] 18:06:48 zakim, take up item 2 18:06:49 agendum 2. "Writers Meeting Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802/" taken up [from AllanJ] 18:07:04 scribe: jeanne 18:08:10 topic: Delete 1.1 and 1.2 18:09:40 group discussion at writers meeting http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0030.html 18:12:57 JR: Color contrast is not an accessibility feature the way longdesc is. 18:13:25 ... the whole interface between what the tool does and what it renders are different standards. 18:14:16 ... the user interface of the tool must have good color contrast, but if the author coded the content with poor colors, then there isn't a lot the user agent can do. 18:14:38 ... images of text is a better example, because the user agent can't fix that. 18:16:13 JA: So this is a compelling case to keep 1.1. We keep the 3 levels for WCAG, but at least we simplified the non-web interface requirements. 18:17:57 http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/#principle_a1 18:18:13 In ATAG2 they are in the revewrsed order 18:18:18 A.1.2.1 Non-Web-Based Accessible: Non-web-based authoring tool user interfaces follow accessibility standards and/or platform conventions that support accessibility. (Level A) [Implementing A.1.2.1] Note: If a conformance claim is made, the claim cites the accessibility standards and/or platform conventions that were followed. 18:20:56 q+ 18:22:52 ack kford 18:25:55 Group has extensive discussion on this. 18:26:05 rrsagent, make minutes 18:26:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-ua-minutes.html kford 18:26:38 JA: 1.1.1 seems to say the developer of the UA should not do inaccessible things, and document it 18:27:14 ... the documenting part is covered in 5.3. 18:28:20 ... the 'not doing inaccessible things' is what is important. 18:28:52 Perhaps combining the sub-items using bullets, such as: 1.2 WCAG Compliant: User agent user interfaces that are rendered using Web standard technologies conform to WCAG: • User agents claiming conformance to UAAG Level "A" conform with WCAG Level “A”. • User agents claiming conformance to UAAG Level "AA" conform with WCAG Level “AA”. • User agents claiming conformance to UAAG... 18:28:53 ...Level "AAA"... 18:28:55 ...conform with WCAG Level “AAA”. 18:30:15 JR: if use same approach as ATAG, should use similar wording. Plea for review of ATAG last call 18:33:28 action: AllanJ to rewrite intent for 1.1.x include Jan's example. 18:33:28 Sorry, couldn't find user - AllanJ 18:33:41 action: JAllan to rewrite intent for 1.1.x include Jan's example. 18:33:41 Created ACTION-425 - Rewrite intent for 1.1.x include Jan's example. [on Jim Allan - due 2010-08-19]. 18:34:33 who is closing i t out? 18:34:44 -kford 18:34:46 -KimPatch 18:34:47 -Jan 18:34:48 -Greg 18:36:07 rrsagent, make minutes 18:36:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-ua-minutes.html AllanJ 18:38:02 -AllanJ 18:38:03 -Jeanne 18:38:04 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:38:05 Attendees were AllanJ, Jeanne, kford, Greg, Jan, KimPatch 18:38:21 rrsagent, please part 18:38:21 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-ua-actions.rdf : 18:38:21 ACTION: Jeanne to contact W3C admin to change our meeting. [1] 18:38:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-ua-irc#T17-25-48 18:38:21 ACTION: AllanJ to rewrite intent for 1.1.x include Jan's example. [2] 18:38:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-ua-irc#T18-33-28 18:38:21 ACTION: JAllan to rewrite intent for 1.1.x include Jan's example. [3] 18:38:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-ua-irc#T18-33-41