17:02:04 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 17:02:04 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-tagmem-irc 17:02:16 jar has joined #tagmem 17:02:20 zakim, please call ht-781 17:02:20 ok, ht; the call is being made 17:02:21 -Jonathan_Rees 17:02:21 +Jonathan_Rees 17:02:21 +Ht 17:02:26 +Noah_Mendelsohn 17:02:40 zakim, who is here? 17:02:40 On the phone I see Jonathan_Rees, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn 17:02:41 On IRC I see jar, RRSAgent, noah, Zakim, Ashok, timbl, ht, Yves, trackbot 17:03:06 zakim, who is here? 17:03:06 On the phone I see Jonathan_Rees, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn 17:03:07 On IRC I see jar, RRSAgent, noah, Zakim, Ashok, timbl, ht, Yves, trackbot 17:03:12 rrsagent, start meeting 17:03:12 I'm logging. I don't understand 'start meeting', jar. Try /msg RRSAgent help 17:03:29 +Ashok_Malhotra 17:03:31 trackbot, start meeting 17:03:33 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:03:35 Zakim, this will be TAG 17:03:35 ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started 17:03:36 Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference 17:03:36 Date: 12 August 2010 17:03:49 +Yves 17:04:35 zakim, who is here? 17:04:35 On the phone I see Jonathan_Rees, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves 17:04:37 On IRC I see jar, RRSAgent, noah, Zakim, Ashok, timbl, ht, Yves, trackbot 17:05:02 scribenick: jar 17:06:13 amy has joined #tagmem 17:06:18 zakim, who is here? 17:06:18 On the phone I see Jonathan_Rees, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves 17:06:20 On IRC I see amy, jar, RRSAgent, noah, Zakim, Ashok, timbl, ht, Yves, trackbot 17:06:26 amy has left #tagmem 17:07:09 topic: Minutes of 15 July 17:07:26 RESOLVED: approve http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/07/15-tagmem-minutes 17:08:01 (discussion of agenda) 17:08:43 topic: Privacy workshop 17:08:59 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Aug/0004.html 17:09:23 draft subject to further editing, hope to have it out in a week ... 45 participants across industry, around 43 position papers ... privacy icons idea ... may fail for the same reasons as P3P ... identify the parameters that users care most about and come up with machine readable things ... others vendors reluctant, but firefox eager to implement ... other thing: data that is gathered via API from the user, parallel to geopriv ... what secondary use, how long r 17:09:24 +TimBL 17:09:31 ashok: TLR on Tuesday said a workshop report will come out soon 17:10:15 q? 17:11:21 ashok: There's another privacy & data workshop coming up in October, somewhat different focus, W3C 17:13:02 note ACTION-455 remains open, we'll discuss when Dan A is around and report is out 17:13:19 Topic: TAG Status Report 17:13:21 Followup privacy workshop http://www.w3.org/2010/policy-ws/ 17:13:42 noah: There's been some review and revision, any comments now? 17:13:57 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/sum07 17:14:02 noah: Propose to publish the report 17:14:12 No objections 17:14:26 RESOLVED: Publish status report http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/sum07 17:15:20 to be made fully public. 17:15:46 topic: Announcing IRI Everywhere 17:15:53 Previous discussion: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/06/24-minutes#item02 17:16:20 We are discuss: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/06/24-minutes#item02 17:16:30 noah: We were supposed to talk about this on july 15 17:16:34 We are to discuss: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html 17:16:58 noah: (in Larry's absence... hmm) 17:17:22 (everyone reading Adam's email) 17:18:13 The email from Adam Barth quotes Roy Fielding: 17:18:15 "Some people have proposed that most of that pre-processing be added 17:18:15 to the IRIbis spec, but I have seen no evidence to suggest that 17:18:15 such pre-processing is even remotely standardizable (it seems to 17:18:15 be different for every input context). If you can demonstrate or 17:18:15 get agreement on a single way to preprocess an input string, or at 17:18:16 least a few named processes (like single-ref and multi-ref), then 17:18:18 that would be useful. 17:18:20 " 17:18:22 ==end quote from Roy== 17:20:44 ht: Bullet number 2 "I object to HTML5 being blocked in the IRIbis working group..." - isn't this what Larry is trying to do in the IRIbis WG? 17:21:05 I'm ready to discuss, to the effect that we shouldn't discuss 17:21:15 NM: But that's offered just as rationale...then change proposal itself stands on its own, no? 17:21:34 HT: Not convinced...this seems fundamental to what LM et. al. are trying to do, no? 17:22:31 ht: I conclude we can't take this further without Larry, since the rationale depends crucially on the claim that IRIbis is holding things up, and we need to hear from him on that 17:23:13 noah: HTML is representative of a class of languages that will need this kind of processing - not unique 17:23:50 q+ to disagree based on XML COre WG experience 17:24:16 In effect, this change proposal urges the working group to adopt Roy's 17:24:16 proposal 17:24:59 noah: "In effect, this proposal urges the WG to adopt Roy's proposal" - what does this have to do with IRIbis? 17:26:09 ht: Roy's experience is directly contradicted by XML Core experience (system identifiers, LEIRIs, etc.) - there's quite a bit of commonality 17:26:25 q? 17:26:32 ack ht 17:26:32 ht, you wanted to disagree based on XML COre WG experience 17:26:44 ... we discontinued work on a separate spec because IRIbis was willing to take it on... I think Roy's wrong 17:28:04 noah: Not sure the facts support what you [ht] say. The question is whether the place to specify common behavior is in IRI spec, [or someplace else] 17:28:38 Sure it defined what people type, to put it circularly, in the particular cases where someone's spec called for a string that was in fact a URI. 17:28:41 People write? 17:28:57 What it does not do is outlaw the converse, I.e., for specs to call for strings that require processing to get to a URI. 17:29:09 (of course, there's usually at least UTF8 interpretation or some such) 17:29:33 ht: URI is only about what's in an HTTP request. Adam's claim seems to be that anything else needs to be in HTML5 spec 17:29:51 (scribe may have mangled that) 17:30:54 noah: Are we missing a window for constructive comments if we wait for Larry? 17:31:29 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/56 17:32:14 ht: Issue 56 is listed as open. Discussed 15 July. No apparent countdown. 17:32:21 action-448? 17:32:21 ACTION-448 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html on 26 August (followup to 24 June and 12 August discussion) -- due 2010-08-24 -- OPEN 17:32:21 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/448 17:33:01 topic: Developer feedback camp 17:33:22 noah: Nervous about this 17:34:20 action-454? 17:34:20 ACTION-454 -- Daniel Appelquist to take lead in organizing possible Web apps architecture camp / workshop / openday -- due 2010-07-22 -- OPEN 17:34:20 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/454 17:35:08 waiting on Dan... 17:35:28 Topic: Redirecting from secondary resource to secondary resource 17:35:33 ACTION-452? 17:35:33 ACTION-452 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule, when Tim is available, discussion of redirection from A#B to C#D -- due 2010-08-17 -- OPEN 17:35:33 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/452 17:36:00 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/07/15-tagmem-minutes.html#item04 17:36:11 ? GET A#B -> 307 C#D ?? 17:36:55 JAR: We were confused in the minutes. It's wrong in the minutes (except in one place), and wrong in today's agenda. 17:37:03 Meaning of A#B where A redirects to C#D 17:37:21 ? GET A --> 307 C#D ?? 17:37:59 307 C#D not allowed in 2616, but is allowed in HTTPbis 17:38:03 in the LocatioN: field 17:38:15 Why then did they change it? 17:38:19 JAR: In the location header, 307 C#D not allowed in 2616, but is allowed in HTTPbis 17:39:00 GET /chapter2 => 301 /entirebook#chapter2 17:39:03 Is this the first precedent for fragment ids being part of an on-the-wire HTTP reference, as opposed to client-side only? 17:39:19 HT: The change to HTTPbis seems reasonable and meaningful -- if there's no # in the original URI(ref) 17:40:01 timbl: I'm surprised that this got changed, since all clients will have to be updated 17:40:42 ack next 17:40:43 HT: HTTPbis isn't final, I'm just saying why it is plausible 17:40:44 The pul server will return this in practce 17:40:47 purl 17:41:00 q+ seems somewhat antithetical to KISS 17:41:06 q+ to say seems somewhat antithetical to KISS 17:41:20 yves: Depends on media type, so if you have redirection [to C#D] media type will matter [?] 17:41:52 ack next 17:41:53 noah, you wanted to say seems somewhat antithetical to KISS 17:42:00 (scribe not getting what Yves is saying) 17:42:36 noah: Until now, the Location: header has been something you can do a GET on, right? 17:42:58 No precedence already there 17:43:06 noah: Now we're going to have to distribute responsibility for resolution 17:43:11 ok 17:43:38 precedents 17:43:52 s/precedence/precents/ 17:43:56 foo! 17:44:24 Yves: fragment processing depends on the media type, also the kind of fragment iss to take into account, absolute references, or relative references (like in xpointer), but the mechanism has to be defined somewhere 17:44:24 s/precents/precedents/ 17:44:29 Well, as I said, if there is on precedent, then this is introducing architectural as well as code complexity. I basically always assumed that HTTP was oblivous to fragids. 17:44:40 $ curl -I http://purl.org/dc/terms/title 17:44:40 HTTP/1.1 302 Moved Temporarily 17:44:40 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 17:44:26 GMT 17:44:41 Server: 1060 NetKernel v3.3 - Powered by Jetty 17:44:41 Location: http://dublincore.org/2008/01/14/dcterms.rdf#title 17:44:41 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 17:45:06 Location was absoluteURI, not relative ones 17:45:18 This violates RFC 2616? 17:45:23 So we're discussing what http://purl.org/dc/terms/title#zebra would mean 17:45:35 RFC 2616 is the current RFC. 17:45:42 If in RDF you follow the latter thing you get a document which tells you about C#D 17:45:49 Th document C tells you about A 17:46:04 This example does NOT work in Tabulator 17:46:09 noah: And what DC does violates 2616 17:46:47 A 303 to C would have been perfect 17:47:17 303 Location: http://dublincore.org/2008/01/14/dcterms.rdf#title not permitted by 2616 17:47:19 Location: http://dublincore.org/2008/01/14/dcterms.rdf 17:47:24 would have been fine 17:47:26 yes 17:47:39 and then that document tells you about A#B 17:48:55 timbl: The new PURL software lets you do bulk 303 redirects 17:49:03 jar: Has it been deployed at purl.org? 17:49:05 I just noticed that Paul Cotton is asking whether we have input on their distributed extensibility change proposal. Input closes within the next day or so. 17:49:19 http://purl.org/docs/help.html#purls 17:49:25 We should briefly discuss that after we wrap this discussion. 17:50:01 timbl: I propose HTTPbis is wrong. We don't want clients to get confused. 17:50:24 timbl: There is a perfectly good alternative for OCLC to use, namely 303 17:50:53 http://purl.org/docs/help.html#purlmodify 17:50:57 Introducing fragment in Location is http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/6 17:50:59 timbl: If HTTP Location: is going to change we need a very good reason 17:52:19 Yves: Best thing would be for me to track down discussion so far in HTTP mailing list 17:52:58 another pointer http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg-old/1999MayAug/0103.html 17:54:31 ACTION Yves to locate past HTTP WG discussion on Location: A#B change, and make the TAG aware of it 17:54:31 Created ACTION-456 - Locate past HTTP WG discussion on Location: A#B change, and make the TAG aware of it [on Yves Lafon - due 2010-08-19]. 17:54:40 ^ doc about how to change your PURL. 17:54:53 action-456 due 2010-08-17 17:54:53 ACTION-456 Locate past HTTP WG discussion on Location: A#B change, and make the TAG aware of it due date now 2010-08-17 17:55:27 topic: Distributed extensibility and HTML 17:55:40 noah: Deadline = tomorrow, from Paul Cotton 17:55:45 On 5 August I sent out: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Aug/0002.html 17:55:50 No response. 17:56:08 Paul Cotton says input needed tomorrow, 13 August: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Aug/0006.html 17:57:46 timbl: The call is for people inside the HTML WG to stand up for particular proposals, right? 17:58:31 ht: Of the 5 proposals, 2 were precursors, leaving 3 proposals, one of which is status quo. All 3 have champions. 17:59:13 Rob Ennals 17:59:30 4 onsoletes 1 and 2 17:59:40 ht: Proposals X and Y were put forward by Rob Ennals. 4 obsoletes 1 and 2. 17:59:42 #4 supercedes #1 and #2 17:59:56 All other proposals have advocates. 18:01:23 noah: Suggest: Thanks for soliciting input, our concern was that all proposals have advocates, and they seem to. 18:01:48 ACTION: Noah to respond to Paul Cotton indicating TAG awareness that all current proposals have advocates, and will therefore not be dropped. 18:01:48 Created ACTION-457 - Respond to Paul Cotton indicating TAG awareness that all current proposals have advocates, and will therefore not be dropped. [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-08-19]. 18:02:16 topic: The chasm 18:02:32 s/chasm/HTML-XML Chasm/ 18:13:41 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/54 18:14:07 HTML and XML divergence 18:14:11 Proposed new issue 18:14:14 source document 18:14:20 the indefinite persistence of 'tag soup' HTML consistent with a sound architecture for the Web? If so, what changes, if any, to fundamental Web technologies are necessary to integrate 'tag soup' with SGML-valid HTML and well-formed XML? 18:14:37 s/the indefinite/Is the indefinite/ 18:14:50 54 is a subissue of the divergence isue 18:15:05 htmlXML-66? 18:15:28 Title: Interoperability of HTML and XML 18:15:43 Product: HTML 5 Review 18:15:51 Shepherd: Tim? 18:16:14 Title: HTML and XML Divergence 18:19:30 ISSUE-66? 18:19:30 ISSUE-66 -- The role of MIME in the Web Architecture -- open 18:19:30 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/66 18:19:58 ISSUE-67? 18:19:58 ISSUE-67 -- HTML and XML Divergence -- raised 18:19:58 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/67 18:22:19 related to http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/428 18:22:37 ISSUE-41? 18:22:37 ISSUE-41 -- What are good practices for designing extensible languages and for handling versioning? -- open 18:22:37 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/41 18:24:25 ISSUE-67? 18:24:25 ISSUE-67 -- HTML and XML Divergence -- raised 18:24:25 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/67 18:25:46 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/54 18:25:52 http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-041 18:26:09 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/41 18:28:33 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/67 18:31:50 -Ashok_Malhotra 18:31:54 zakim, who is here? 18:31:54 On the phone I see Jonathan_Rees, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn, Yves, TimBL 18:31:55 On IRC I see jar, RRSAgent, noah, Zakim, Ashok, timbl, ht, Yves, trackbot 18:31:57 -Noah_Mendelsohn 18:31:57 -Ht 18:31:59 -Yves 18:32:01 -TimBL 18:32:11 rrsagent, make logs public 18:32:15 rrsagent, pointer 18:32:15 See http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-tagmem-irc#T18-32-15 18:33:03 ADJOURNED 18:36:58 disconnecting the lone participant, Jonathan_Rees, in TAG_Weekly()1:00PM 18:37:02 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended 18:37:03 Attendees were Jonathan_Rees, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, TimBL 20:41:34 Zakim has left #tagmem