IRC log of tagmem on 2010-08-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to
17:02:16 [jar]
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17:02:20 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
17:02:20 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
17:02:21 [Zakim]
17:02:21 [Zakim]
17:02:21 [Zakim]
17:02:26 [Zakim]
17:02:40 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
17:02:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jonathan_Rees, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn
17:02:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jar, RRSAgent, noah, Zakim, Ashok, timbl, ht, Yves, trackbot
17:03:06 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
17:03:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jonathan_Rees, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn
17:03:07 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jar, RRSAgent, noah, Zakim, Ashok, timbl, ht, Yves, trackbot
17:03:12 [jar]
rrsagent, start meeting
17:03:12 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'start meeting', jar. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:03:29 [Zakim]
17:03:31 [jar]
trackbot, start meeting
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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Zakim, this will be TAG
17:03:35 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started
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Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
17:03:36 [trackbot]
Date: 12 August 2010
17:03:49 [Zakim]
17:04:35 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
17:04:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jonathan_Rees, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves
17:04:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jar, RRSAgent, noah, Zakim, Ashok, timbl, ht, Yves, trackbot
17:05:02 [jar]
scribenick: jar
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17:06:18 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
17:06:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jonathan_Rees, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves
17:06:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see amy, jar, RRSAgent, noah, Zakim, Ashok, timbl, ht, Yves, trackbot
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17:07:09 [jar]
topic: Minutes of 15 July
17:07:26 [jar]
RESOLVED: approve
17:08:01 [jar]
(discussion of agenda)
17:08:43 [jar]
topic: Privacy workshop
17:08:59 [Yves]
17:09:23 [Ashok]
draft subject to further editing, hope to have it out in a week ... 45 participants across industry, around 43 position papers ... privacy icons idea ... may fail for the same reasons as P3P ... identify the parameters that users care most about and come up with machine readable things ... others vendors reluctant, but firefox eager to implement ... other thing: data that is gathered via API from the user, parallel to geopriv ... what secondary use, how long r
17:09:24 [Zakim]
17:09:31 [jar]
ashok: TLR on Tuesday said a workshop report will come out soon
17:10:15 [noah]
17:11:21 [jar]
ashok: There's another privacy & data workshop coming up in October, somewhat different focus, W3C
17:13:02 [jar]
note ACTION-455 remains open, we'll discuss when Dan A is around and report is out
17:13:19 [jar]
Topic: TAG Status Report
17:13:21 [Ashok]
Followup privacy workshop
17:13:42 [jar]
noah: There's been some review and revision, any comments now?
17:13:57 [noah]
17:14:02 [jar]
noah: Propose to publish the report
17:14:12 [jar]
No objections
17:14:26 [jar]
RESOLVED: Publish status report
17:15:20 [jar]
to be made fully public.
17:15:46 [jar]
topic: Announcing IRI Everywhere
17:15:53 [noah]
Previous discussion:
17:16:20 [noah]
We are discuss:
17:16:30 [jar]
noah: We were supposed to talk about this on july 15
17:16:34 [noah]
We are to discuss:
17:16:58 [jar]
noah: (in Larry's absence... hmm)
17:17:22 [jar]
(everyone reading Adam's email)
17:18:13 [noah]
The email from Adam Barth quotes Roy Fielding:
17:18:15 [noah]
"Some people have proposed that most of that pre-processing be added
17:18:15 [noah]
to the IRIbis spec, but I have seen no evidence to suggest that
17:18:15 [noah]
such pre-processing is even remotely standardizable (it seems to
17:18:15 [noah]
be different for every input context). If you can demonstrate or
17:18:15 [noah]
get agreement on a single way to preprocess an input string, or at
17:18:16 [noah]
least a few named processes (like single-ref and multi-ref), then
17:18:18 [noah]
that would be useful.
17:18:20 [noah]
17:18:22 [noah]
==end quote from Roy==
17:20:44 [jar]
ht: Bullet number 2 "I object to HTML5 being blocked in the IRIbis working group..." - isn't this what Larry is trying to do in the IRIbis WG?
17:21:05 [ht]
I'm ready to discuss, to the effect that we shouldn't discuss
17:21:15 [noah]
NM: But that's offered just as rationale...then change proposal itself stands on its own, no?
17:21:34 [noah]
HT: Not convinced...this seems fundamental to what LM et. al. are trying to do, no?
17:22:31 [jar]
ht: I conclude we can't take this further without Larry, since the rationale depends crucially on the claim that IRIbis is holding things up, and we need to hear from him on that
17:23:13 [jar]
noah: HTML is representative of a class of languages that will need this kind of processing - not unique
17:23:50 [ht]
q+ to disagree based on XML COre WG experience
17:24:16 [noah]
In effect, this change proposal urges the working group to adopt Roy's
17:24:16 [noah]
17:24:59 [jar]
noah: "In effect, this proposal urges the WG to adopt Roy's proposal" - what does this have to do with IRIbis?
17:26:09 [jar]
ht: Roy's experience is directly contradicted by XML Core experience (system identifiers, LEIRIs, etc.) - there's quite a bit of commonality
17:26:25 [noah]
17:26:32 [noah]
ack ht
17:26:32 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to disagree based on XML COre WG experience
17:26:44 [jar]
... we discontinued work on a separate spec because IRIbis was willing to take it on... I think Roy's wrong
17:28:04 [jar]
noah: Not sure the facts support what you [ht] say. The question is whether the place to specify common behavior is in IRI spec, [or someplace else]
17:28:38 [noah]
Sure it defined what people type, to put it circularly, in the particular cases where someone's spec called for a string that was in fact a URI.
17:28:41 [timbl]
People write?
17:28:57 [noah]
What it does not do is outlaw the converse, I.e., for specs to call for strings that require processing to get to a URI.
17:29:09 [noah]
(of course, there's usually at least UTF8 interpretation or some such)
17:29:33 [jar]
ht: URI is only about what's in an HTTP request. Adam's claim seems to be that anything else needs to be in HTML5 spec
17:29:51 [jar]
(scribe may have mangled that)
17:30:54 [jar]
noah: Are we missing a window for constructive comments if we wait for Larry?
17:31:29 [ht]
17:32:14 [jar]
ht: Issue 56 is listed as open. Discussed 15 July. No apparent countdown.
17:32:21 [noah]
17:32:21 [trackbot]
ACTION-448 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of on 26 August (followup to 24 June and 12 August discussion) -- due 2010-08-24 -- OPEN
17:32:21 [trackbot]
17:33:01 [jar]
topic: Developer feedback camp
17:33:22 [jar]
noah: Nervous about this
17:34:20 [noah]
17:34:20 [trackbot]
ACTION-454 -- Daniel Appelquist to take lead in organizing possible Web apps architecture camp / workshop / openday -- due 2010-07-22 -- OPEN
17:34:20 [trackbot]
17:35:08 [jar]
waiting on Dan...
17:35:28 [jar]
Topic: Redirecting from secondary resource to secondary resource
17:35:33 [noah]
17:35:33 [trackbot]
ACTION-452 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule, when Tim is available, discussion of redirection from A#B to C#D -- due 2010-08-17 -- OPEN
17:35:33 [trackbot]
17:36:00 [noah]
17:36:11 [noah]
<timbl> ? GET A#B -> 307 C#D ??
17:36:55 [noah]
JAR: We were confused in the minutes. It's wrong in the minutes (except in one place), and wrong in today's agenda.
17:37:03 [jar]
Meaning of A#B where A redirects to C#D
17:37:21 [timbl]
? GET A --> 307 C#D ??
17:37:59 [jar]
307 C#D not allowed in 2616, but is allowed in HTTPbis
17:38:03 [timbl]
in the LocatioN: field
17:38:15 [timbl]
Why then did they change it?
17:38:19 [noah]
JAR: In the location header, 307 C#D not allowed in 2616, but is allowed in HTTPbis
17:39:00 [Yves]
GET /chapter2 => 301 /entirebook#chapter2
17:39:03 [noah]
Is this the first precedent for fragment ids being part of an on-the-wire HTTP reference, as opposed to client-side only?
17:39:19 [jar]
HT: The change to HTTPbis seems reasonable and meaningful -- if there's no # in the original URI(ref)
17:40:01 [jar]
timbl: I'm surprised that this got changed, since all clients will have to be updated
17:40:42 [noah]
ack next
17:40:43 [jar]
HT: HTTPbis isn't final, I'm just saying why it is plausible
17:40:44 [timbl]
The pul server will return this in practce
17:40:47 [timbl]
17:41:00 [noah]
q+ seems somewhat antithetical to KISS
17:41:06 [noah]
q+ to say seems somewhat antithetical to KISS
17:41:20 [jar]
yves: Depends on media type, so if you have redirection [to C#D] media type will matter [?]
17:41:52 [noah]
ack next
17:41:53 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to say seems somewhat antithetical to KISS
17:42:00 [jar]
(scribe not getting what Yves is saying)
17:42:36 [jar]
noah: Until now, the Location: header has been something you can do a GET on, right?
17:42:58 [timbl]
No precedence already there
17:43:06 [jar]
noah: Now we're going to have to distribute responsibility for resolution
17:43:11 [noah]
17:43:38 [timbl]
17:43:52 [jar]
17:43:56 [jar]
17:44:24 [Yves]
Yves: fragment processing depends on the media type, also the kind of fragment iss to take into account, absolute references, or relative references (like in xpointer), but the mechanism has to be defined somewhere
17:44:24 [jar]
17:44:29 [noah]
Well, as I said, if there is on precedent, then this is introducing architectural as well as code complexity. I basically always assumed that HTTP was oblivous to fragids.
17:44:40 [timbl]
$ curl -I
17:44:40 [timbl]
HTTP/1.1 302 Moved Temporarily
17:44:40 [timbl]
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 17:44:26 GMT
17:44:41 [timbl]
Server: 1060 NetKernel v3.3 - Powered by Jetty
17:44:41 [timbl]
17:44:41 [timbl]
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
17:45:06 [Yves]
Location was absoluteURI, not relative ones
17:45:18 [noah]
This violates RFC 2616?
17:45:23 [jar]
So we're discussing what would mean
17:45:35 [noah]
RFC 2616 is the current RFC.
17:45:42 [timbl]
If in RDF you follow the latter thing you get a document which tells you about C#D
17:45:49 [timbl]
Th document C tells you about A
17:46:04 [timbl]
This example does NOT work in Tabulator
17:46:09 [jar]
noah: And what DC does violates 2616
17:46:47 [timbl]
A 303 to C would have been perfect
17:47:17 [jar]
303 Location: not permitted by 2616
17:47:19 [timbl]
17:47:24 [timbl]
would have been fine
17:47:26 [jar]
17:47:39 [timbl]
and then that document tells you about A#B
17:48:55 [jar]
timbl: The new PURL software lets you do bulk 303 redirects
17:49:03 [jar]
jar: Has it been deployed at
17:49:05 [noah]
I just noticed that Paul Cotton is asking whether we have input on their distributed extensibility change proposal. Input closes within the next day or so.
17:49:19 [timbl]
17:49:25 [noah]
We should briefly discuss that after we wrap this discussion.
17:50:01 [jar]
timbl: I propose HTTPbis is wrong. We don't want clients to get confused.
17:50:24 [jar]
timbl: There is a perfectly good alternative for OCLC to use, namely 303
17:50:53 [timbl]
17:50:57 [Yves]
Introducing fragment in Location is
17:50:59 [jar]
timbl: If HTTP Location: is going to change we need a very good reason
17:52:19 [jar]
Yves: Best thing would be for me to track down discussion so far in HTTP mailing list
17:52:58 [Yves]
another pointer
17:54:31 [jar]
ACTION Yves to locate past HTTP WG discussion on Location: A#B change, and make the TAG aware of it
17:54:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-456 - Locate past HTTP WG discussion on Location: A#B change, and make the TAG aware of it [on Yves Lafon - due 2010-08-19].
17:54:40 [timbl]
^ doc about how to change your PURL.
17:54:53 [jar]
action-456 due 2010-08-17
17:54:53 [trackbot]
ACTION-456 Locate past HTTP WG discussion on Location: A#B change, and make the TAG aware of it due date now 2010-08-17
17:55:27 [jar]
topic: Distributed extensibility and HTML
17:55:40 [jar]
noah: Deadline = tomorrow, from Paul Cotton
17:55:45 [noah]
On 5 August I sent out:
17:55:50 [noah]
No response.
17:56:08 [noah]
Paul Cotton says input needed tomorrow, 13 August:
17:57:46 [jar]
timbl: The call is for people inside the HTML WG to stand up for particular proposals, right?
17:58:31 [jar]
ht: Of the 5 proposals, 2 were precursors, leaving 3 proposals, one of which is status quo. All 3 have champions.
17:59:13 [noah]
Rob Ennals
17:59:30 [timbl]
4 onsoletes 1 and 2
17:59:40 [jar]
ht: Proposals X and Y were put forward by Rob Ennals. 4 obsoletes 1 and 2.
17:59:42 [noah]
#4 supercedes #1 and #2
17:59:56 [noah]
All other proposals have advocates.
18:01:23 [jar]
noah: Suggest: Thanks for soliciting input, our concern was that all proposals have advocates, and they seem to.
18:01:48 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to respond to Paul Cotton indicating TAG awareness that all current proposals have advocates, and will therefore not be dropped.
18:01:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-457 - Respond to Paul Cotton indicating TAG awareness that all current proposals have advocates, and will therefore not be dropped. [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-08-19].
18:02:16 [jar]
topic: The chasm
18:02:32 [noah]
s/chasm/HTML-XML Chasm/
18:13:41 [ht]
18:14:07 [timbl]
HTML and XML divergence
18:14:11 [timbl]
Proposed new issue
18:14:14 [timbl]
source document
18:14:20 [ht]
the indefinite persistence of 'tag soup' HTML consistent with a sound architecture for the Web? If so, what changes, if any, to fundamental Web technologies are necessary to integrate 'tag soup' with SGML-valid HTML and well-formed XML?
18:14:37 [ht]
s/the indefinite/Is the indefinite/
18:14:50 [timbl]
54 is a subissue of the divergence isue
18:15:05 [noah]
18:15:28 [noah]
Title: Interoperability of HTML and XML
18:15:43 [noah]
Product: HTML 5 Review
18:15:51 [noah]
Shepherd: Tim?
18:16:14 [noah]
Title: HTML and XML Divergence
18:19:30 [noah]
18:19:30 [trackbot]
ISSUE-66 -- The role of MIME in the Web Architecture -- open
18:19:30 [trackbot]
18:19:58 [noah]
18:19:58 [trackbot]
ISSUE-67 -- HTML and XML Divergence -- raised
18:19:58 [trackbot]
18:22:19 [Yves]
related to
18:22:37 [noah]
18:22:37 [trackbot]
ISSUE-41 -- What are good practices for designing extensible languages and for handling versioning? -- open
18:22:37 [trackbot]
18:24:25 [noah]
18:24:25 [trackbot]
ISSUE-67 -- HTML and XML Divergence -- raised
18:24:25 [trackbot]
18:25:46 [ht]
18:25:52 [noah]
18:26:09 [noah]
18:28:33 [noah]
18:31:50 [Zakim]
18:31:54 [jar]
zakim, who is here?
18:31:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jonathan_Rees, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn, Yves, TimBL
18:31:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jar, RRSAgent, noah, Zakim, Ashok, timbl, ht, Yves, trackbot
18:31:57 [Zakim]
18:31:57 [Zakim]
18:31:59 [Zakim]
18:32:01 [Zakim]
18:32:11 [jar]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:32:15 [jar]
rrsagent, pointer
18:32:15 [RRSAgent]
18:33:03 [jar]
18:36:58 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, Jonathan_Rees, in TAG_Weekly()1:00PM
18:37:02 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:37:03 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jonathan_Rees, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, TimBL
20:41:34 [Zakim]
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