IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-08-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:15:24 [Zakim]
00:15:25 [Zakim]
00:15:27 [Zakim]
00:15:28 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM has ended
00:15:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were Janina, Sean, Plh, John_Foliot, Eric, Silvia, Kenny_Johar, Judy
00:19:08 [plh]
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01:30:12 [davidb]
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15:05:04 [RRSAgent]
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15:05:04 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:05:23 [gfreed]
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15:05:59 [oedipus]
zakim, who is here?
15:05:59 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I don't know what conference this is
15:06:00 [dboudreau]
my point of view is I'll go for a non-valid docuemnt if I ever need the longdesc attribute in some page
15:06:00 [Zakim]
On IRC I see gfreed, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ben, Marco_Ranon, kliehm, AllanJ, dboudreau, JF, eric_carlson, oedipus, davidb, janina, trackbot
15:06:11 [janina]
zakim, call janina
15:06:11 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
15:06:43 [Ben]
zakim, list conferences
15:06:43 [Zakim]
I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM, Team_(geochairs)13:30Z, SW_RDFa()10:00AM, Styl_XSL-FO-()11:00AM, WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM active
15:06:45 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time are WAI_Team()9:30AM, SW_HCLS(TransMed)11:00AM, T&S_EGOV(LD TECH)10:00AM, WF_TF()8:00AM, VB_VBWG(CCXML)11:00AM, Team_Comm()10:30AM, GA_SVGWG()10:30AM
15:06:53 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML
15:06:53 [Zakim]
ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM already started
15:06:59 [janina]
zakim, call janina
15:06:59 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
15:07:01 [Zakim]
15:07:34 [oedipus]
zakim, choose a victim
15:07:34 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Eric
15:08:16 [janina]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:08:16 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Eric, John_Foliot, kliehm, Gregory_Rosmaita, Denis_Boudreau (muted), ??P5, Janina
15:08:29 [oedipus]
zakim, choose a victim
15:08:29 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Janina
15:08:38 [oedipus]
zakim, choose a victim
15:08:38 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Eric
15:08:54 [eric_carlson]
thanks Zakim!
15:09:14 [AllanJ]
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15:09:16 [Ben]
zakim, ??P5 is Ben_Caldwell
15:09:16 [Zakim]
+Ben_Caldwell; got it
15:09:28 [Zakim]
15:09:29 [Zakim]
15:09:44 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
15:09:44 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:09:44 [janina]
agenda: this
15:09:44 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe
15:09:44 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review
15:09:45 [janina]
agenda+ Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage
15:09:48 [janina]
agenda+ TF Recommendations Followup:
15:09:49 [janina]
agenda+ Keyboard Access Requirements
15:09:51 [janina]
agenda+ Drag & Drop Discussion
15:09:53 [janina]
agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
15:09:55 [janina]
agenda+ be done
15:09:57 [janina]
15:10:16 [janina]
zakim, pick a victim
15:10:16 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Janina
15:10:28 [janina]
zakim, pick a victim
15:10:28 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Gregory_Rosmaita
15:10:31 [kliehm]
15:10:46 [oedipus]
scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
15:10:51 [oedipus]
scribenick: oedipus
15:11:08 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Preliminaries
15:11:15 [oedipus]
JS: MikeSmith will chair next 2 meetings
15:11:28 [oedipus]
zakim, take agendum 1
15:11:28 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take agendum 1', oedipus
15:11:33 [oedipus]
zakim, agendum 1
15:11:33 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agendum 1', oedipus
15:11:41 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Action Items Review
15:11:48 [paulc]
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15:12:07 [paulc]
Sorry I am late, drove 560km this morning
15:12:13 [JF]
15:13:12 [oedipus]
15:13:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-47 -- Steve Faulkner to file a bug with HTML 5 about making autocomplete consistent with ARIA, per comment 289 -- due 2010-07-29 -- OPEN
15:13:12 [trackbot]
15:13:43 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, kliehm
15:13:45 [oedipus]
15:13:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-50 -- Janina Sajka to add some introductory text to requirement docs clarifying that these are user requirements, not necessarily UA requirements -- due 2010-07-08 -- CLOSED
15:13:45 [trackbot]
15:13:59 [Zakim]
15:14:14 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:14:14 [Zakim]
+paulc; got it
15:14:31 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Actions Review" taken up [from janina]
15:14:54 [oedipus]
CS: Steve and I worked on draft to update the change proposal based on feedback from MJS -- came up with list of things, RS and i sent text to steve to integrate -- thought would be available today, but haven't yet seen it
15:15:36 [oedipus]
CS: have tuesday meeting next week to review
15:16:17 [oedipus]
CS: hope is will be able to bring to TF next thrusday and then to WG and then for review for 2 to 3 weeks by HTML WG
15:16:20 [oedipus]
JS: good plan
15:16:33 [oedipus]
CS: will probably be discussed in HTML WG telecon next hour
15:16:55 [oedipus]
zakim, move to next agendum
15:16:55 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage" taken up [from janina]
15:17:25 [kliehm]
15:19:49 [dboudreau]
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15:20:08 [dboudreau]
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15:20:11 [oedipus]
JS: Canvas: no action; heard from Cynthia about mapping - hope to move revised rationale in this meeting next week
15:20:19 [oedipus]
JS: drag and drop stuck due to vacations
15:21:04 [oedipus]
JF: media -- very productive conference calls for last few weeks -- very in depth conversation of particular points -- at point where believe had req docuemtn that is complete -- please review if haven't looked at or checked recently -- think haev done our due dilligence
15:21:16 [oedipus]
JS: still waiting for a couple of additions from JudyB
15:21:26 [oedipus]
JF: yes, but most of intent has been succesfully captured
15:22:02 [frankolivier]
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15:22:23 [oedipus]
JF: next step: proposals emerging -- action-50 is create a matrix or grid to list technical reqs as agnostically as possible -- identified key things, capture as tech req, assign priority to it to help guide development and keep discussion focused and on track
15:22:45 [oedipus]
JF: document has rough outline in my head -- took on action-50 to get together for end of the month
15:22:57 [oedipus]
JF: will probably get most work done when on vacation
15:23:27 [oedipus]
JS: expectation for matrix -- view of what type of technologies are needed to satifisfy user reqs we identified
15:24:02 [oedipus]
JS: cannot rely on exissting containers to handle synchronization -- have to support 3rd party for sign language as primary track -- very important
15:24:47 [oedipus]
JF: asynchronous synchronization -- how to insert a 20 minute description into a 10 minute clip; processing media content is complex, but no native way for container to do that -- one of issues identified
15:25:08 [oedipus]
JS: proofs-of-concepts based on user requirements -- some have been around for years
15:25:24 [oedipus]
zakim, move to next agendum
15:25:24 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "TF Recommendations Followup:" taken up [from janina]
15:25:48 [oedipus]
zakim, close agendum 4
15:25:48 [Zakim]
agendum 4, TF Recommendations Followup:, closed
15:25:49 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:25:50 [Zakim]
5. Keyboard Access Requirements [from janina]
15:25:52 [kliehm]
15:26:11 [kliehm]
15:27:09 [oedipus]
MK: list of bugs -- 41 -- others are not important enough or don't meet reqs - some can be followed up by individuals and not TF
15:27:19 [oedipus]
MK: will have telecon next tuesday to examine remaining 21
15:27:31 [oedipus]
JS: very good news -- thanks for helping progress that issue
15:27:47 [oedipus]
azkim, take up agendum 4
15:27:54 [oedipus]
zakim, take up agendum 4
15:27:54 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "TF Recommendations Followup:" taken up [from janina]
15:28:11 [oedipus]
JS: decision from HTML WG chairs regarding HTML WG Issue-30 (longdesc)
15:28:53 [dboudreau]
i will contribute to the formal objection... trying to see if I need to object myself or simply support someone else's
15:29:00 [oedipus]
JS: JF posted intent to object and others have signed up -- i am composing email response -- did not see direct response to the TF/PF/WAI Consensus recs on @alt; some additional issues as well
15:29:38 [oedipus]
JS: please keep discussion constructive -- bottom line is that have requirement that can't be satisfied -- there are implementations out there -- Oracle already indicated that it uses longdesc everytime there is a screen shot
15:29:59 [oedipus]
JS: what may have gotten lost is requirement for a verbose descriptor without replacement
15:30:09 [kliehm]
I have a longdesc on this party flyer - feel free to use it as a use case:
15:30:17 [oedipus]
JS: can do better than longdesc mechanism from HTML 4.01 but perhaps not under HTML WG timelines
15:31:15 [oedipus]
JS: re-read WAI Consensus rec -- missing is ability to reference verbose descriptor either an extrernal file (longdesc) or if description in same doc as image can use aria-describedby
15:31:37 [oedipus]
JS: ARIA 2.0 to do item is to make aria-describedby capable of referencing an external as well as internal resource
15:31:40 [oedipus]
15:32:01 [oedipus]
JF: my question: is this TF going to support a formal objection?
15:32:09 [dboudreau]
bottom line, we need a mechanism allowing to come up with a structured description for a complex image. Can we consider working on something else or should we fight for @longdesc?
15:33:11 [oedipus]
JF: i've already personally committed to launching formal objection -- intend to follow through on this as individual -- non-W3C communication from a chair that dismissively comments on capacities and capabilities of HTML A11y TF -- that's another issue for another space, but i will formally object
15:33:42 [oedipus]
JF: if HTML A11y TF wants to persue further, will work with TF members on formal objection, but if my tack is different from TF's will file as individual
15:33:50 [oedipus]
JF: what should be the next step?
15:34:28 [oedipus]
PC: understand why TF takes position -- if 1 chair has to present formal objection to director, much better if supporters are clearly identified -- encourage formal objection to list individuals and orgs that support it
15:35:01 [dboudreau]
Paul does this mean that without a support from browser vendors, the formal objection wouldn't hold much chance of being heard?
15:35:16 [oedipus]
JS: on process of TF -- part of HTML WG and part of PFWG -- may be better for WAI iteself to raise objection -- still on tabel -- more i look at it, more concerned i am -- very primary req
15:35:58 [oedipus]
JS: possible that there will be formal objection from inside WAI -- possibly PF -- reference guidance this TF provided -- approx 76% approval via WBS
15:36:35 [oedipus]
JS: people did what should do in HTML40 and WCAG20 and we don't have a next step without longdesc
15:37:10 [oedipus]
JF: concern: if use longdesc in fully conforming HTML5 doc only problem is can't validate -- works in browsers with native longdesc support -- can get longdesc using Opera and FireFox
15:37:36 [oedipus]
JF: now have 2 of four/five major browsers provide native support for longdesc; will always be rendered by browsers that support HTML4
15:37:47 [oedipus]
JF: chairs justifications completely missed the point
15:38:04 [oedipus]
JF: comments about bad meta data and abuse of longdesc a canard
15:38:09 [oedipus]
15:38:13 [janina]
15:38:42 [oedipus]
CS: can we negotiate? don't want to spend political capital on longdesc
15:38:52 [oedipus]
JS: 2 statements -- are we still open to negotiation
15:40:33 [oedipus]
PC: w3c proccess should attempt to find solution that causes least amount of dissent; chairs chose what felt caused least amount of dissent -- best way to indicate we were wrong is to file formal objection which puts ball back in chairs' court -- can go back, look at formal objection to see if changes opinion -- other option is acknowledge formal objection and carry forward when talk to director coming OUT of last call -- going to LC is WG decision -- as c
15:40:40 [JF]
15:40:54 [oedipus]
PC: might request expidited action from director -- haven't yet discussed with HTML WG co-chairs
15:41:59 [oedipus]
15:42:44 [JF]
15:42:45 [oedipus]
GJR: not about specific elements but about leaving use case/need for verbose descriptors referenceable externally or internally
15:43:25 [oedipus]
s/internally/internaly not satisfied/
15:43:33 [oedipus]
JF: when next heartbeat req?
15:44:12 [oedipus]
PC: chairs chose to attempt to get WDs published in june so could have another pub cycle before AC/TPAC meeting in november 2010 in lyons -- based only on chairs' discussion -- not consensus from WG
15:44:45 [oedipus]
JF: thanks -- helps logistically
15:45:29 [oedipus]
JS: bottom line: several strands of discontent -- bottom line is missing a key requirement (verbose descriptor) so question is what to tell those using longdesc and supporting longdesc -- anticipate a formal objection if not a couple of them
15:45:38 [dboudreau]
no we're not done
15:45:40 [oedipus]
JS: not done discussing by any means
15:46:27 [oedipus]
PC: as the co-chair who attends these meetings i will bring this forward -- best way to deal with TF-WG tension is to confront directly -- will carry message back to samR and MJS -- will also convey to them what i said with chair's hat on
15:46:36 [oedipus]
JS: will be joining WG call at top of hour
15:47:00 [oedipus]
PC: very possible that monday meeting agenda could be added to by Janina or Judy
15:47:15 [oedipus]
JS: appreciate PC's dedication to attending TF meetings
15:47:30 [oedipus]
PC: discussion on monday would be best way to discuss dissent
15:47:48 [oedipus]
JS: wanted to let others know that this is being addressed at the proper levels using the proper communications channels
15:47:53 [Zakim]
15:47:56 [oedipus]
PC: agree with transparency
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15:49:43 [oedipus]
PC: chairs thread that dealt with this had 5 people on it -- me, SamR, MJS, PhL, and mikeTMsmith -- by copying mike thought could get TF input, but i see your point -- might have been better to distribute this more widely
15:50:07 [oedipus]
JS: MikeSmith is co-facillitator -- may not have been on his radar
15:50:14 [oedipus]
PC: JS your comment has merit
15:50:30 [oedipus]
zakim, +??P24 is Steve_Faulkner
15:50:30 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+??P24'
15:50:38 [oedipus]
zakim, ??P24 is Steve_Faulkner
15:50:38 [Zakim]
+Steve_Faulkner; got it
15:50:49 [oedipus]
[steve faulkner joins]
15:52:02 [oedipus]
SF: from report got back from meeting with cynthia and rich and chairs -- questions about whether we missed some mappings (fixed through addition) second part is developing reasoning behind changes in new text for spec
15:52:51 [oedipus]
SF: in process of collating that -- will be adding to ChangeProposal wiki page providing additional detail we were asked for - should be available next week -- want to check a few things with RichS who is on vacation
15:53:16 [oedipus]
SF: will be ready for review before next week's TF telecon
15:53:32 [oedipus]
CS: will we have a tuesday meeting?
15:53:37 [oedipus]
SF: yes
15:53:54 [oedipus]
SF: will send out agenda for tuesday with link to updated docs a.s.a.p.
15:53:59 [oedipus]
JS: next week is week to get done
15:54:21 [oedipus]
SF: question: CS will you be on HTML WG call to pass message on?
15:54:35 [oedipus]
CS: Paul and i and Janina will be on WG call, so is covered
15:54:50 [oedipus]
PC: SF you are on vacation, so one of us can communicate status to WG
15:55:33 [oedipus]
15:56:09 [dboudreau]
I guess some of us will discuss it further outside this meeting
15:56:24 [oedipus]
CS: objection to longdesc more vociferous in this call than previous
15:56:50 [oedipus]
JS: biggest problem is that there isn't a substitute/replacement mechanism for providing verbose descriptors
15:57:13 [oedipus]
JS: statistics may be skewed by longdesc maintained by corps and orgs behind a firewall
15:57:50 [oedipus]
JS: this may not be the top priority but it is a fundamental priority
15:58:18 [oedipus]
CS: worried about perceptions of us reacting to this first rejection -- may come off as complianers
15:58:23 [dboudreau]
there are much more important issues to be discussed than longdesc but it becomes a priority if time is of the essence to react...
15:58:38 [Stevef]
ISSUE-109: change ARIA section title and add extra text about use of ARIA - Straw Poll for Objections
15:58:38 [trackbot]
Sorry... adding notes to ISSUE-109 failed, please let sysreq know about it
15:58:39 [Stevef]
15:58:40 [oedipus]
JF: doesn't lessen it -- not religious on how to achieve, but need to achieve well-described functionality
15:59:21 [oedipus]
JS: short inline (alternative) text and more verbose description (external or internal, external can be pulled into doc to make internal)
15:59:48 [JF]
16:00:08 [oedipus]
CS: not saying don't due, but there is a cost attached
16:00:13 [oedipus]
JF: cost attached to not doing as well
16:00:54 [Zakim]
16:01:18 [oedipus]
JS: until have replacement, need to keep longdesc
16:01:52 [oedipus]
SF: please answer poll by 19 August 2010 -- doesn't go to heart of issue and contains some irrelevancies
16:02:20 [oedipus]
JS: every TF member is an HTML WG member, so please fill out survey cited by SteveF above
16:03:10 [Zakim]
16:03:29 [dboudreau]
thanks all, take care
16:03:33 [Zakim]
16:03:35 [Zakim]
16:03:37 [Zakim]
16:03:37 [Zakim]
16:03:38 [Zakim]
16:03:38 [Zakim]
16:03:38 [AllanJ]
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16:03:40 [Zakim]
16:03:42 [janina]
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16:03:42 [gfreed]
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16:03:44 [Zakim]
16:03:47 [Zakim]
16:03:48 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
16:03:50 [Zakim]
Attendees were Eric, John_Foliot, kliehm, Gregory_Rosmaita, Denis_Boudreau, Janina, Ben_Caldwell, Cynthia_Shelly, Marco_Ranon, paulc, Steve_Faulkner
16:03:52 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
16:03:53 [Zakim]
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16:04:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:04:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:05:05 [oedipus]
present+ Jim_Allan_(IRC_only)
16:05:26 [oedipus]
regrets: Laura_Carlson, Sylvia_Pfieffer,Kenny_Johar
16:05:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:08:26 [oedipus]
meeting: HTML A11y Task Force Weekly Teleconference
16:08:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:09:38 [oedipus]
meeting+ HTML A11y Task Force Weekly Teleconference
16:09:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:14:30 [oedipus]
16:14:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:16:26 [oedipus]
regrets+ Leif_Halvard_Silli
16:16:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:17:45 [oedipus]
regrets+ Aurélien_Levy
16:17:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:37:04 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items