IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-08-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:58:57 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:58:57 [RRSAgent]
logging to
21:59:02 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
21:59:02 [Zakim]
ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
21:59:12 [janina]
zakim, call janina
21:59:12 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
21:59:13 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM has now started
21:59:14 [Zakim]
21:59:34 [janina]
zakim, who is on the phone?
21:59:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina
21:59:55 [Zakim]
22:01:51 [janina]
zakim, ack me
22:01:51 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
22:01:55 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
22:01:55 [janina]
Chair: John_Foliot
22:01:55 [janina]
agenda: this
22:01:55 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe
22:01:55 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review
22:01:56 [janina]
action+ Activity Updates -- Proof of Concept; Content Contributions
22:01:58 [janina]
agenda+ moving our User Requirements to W3C Note status?
22:01:59 [plh]
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22:02:00 [janina]
agenda+ Technical Primitives Development
22:02:02 [janina]
agenda+ Candidate Solutions Gap Analysis: WebSRT; WMML, Etc.
22:02:05 [janina]
agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
22:02:06 [janina]
agenda+ be done
22:02:08 [janina]
22:02:17 [Zakim]
22:02:23 [plh]
zakim, drop plh
22:02:23 [Zakim]
Plh is being disconnected
22:02:24 [Zakim]
22:02:28 [Zakim]
22:02:37 [Zakim]
22:03:57 [janina]
zakim, who's on the phone?
22:03:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, Sean, Plh, John_Foliot
22:04:15 [JF]
JF has joined #html-a11y
22:04:22 [JF]
22:04:37 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
22:04:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, Sean, Plh, John_Foliot
22:04:38 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JF, plh, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, silvia, trackbot
22:04:39 [Zakim]
22:04:54 [plh]
22:04:55 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
22:05:04 [eric_carlson]
eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
22:05:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, Sean, Plh, John_Foliot, Eric
22:05:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JF, plh, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, silvia, trackbot
22:08:38 [kenny_j]
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22:09:22 [Zakim]
22:09:30 [Zakim]
22:09:38 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:09:38 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
22:11:14 [Zakim]
22:11:21 [Zakim]
22:12:24 [janina]
scribe: janina
22:12:32 [janina]
zakim, takeup action 2
22:12:32 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'takeup action 2', janina
22:12:40 [janina]
zakim, take up item 2
22:12:40 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Actions Review" taken up [from janina]
22:12:55 [janina]
jf: primarily long range on Judy.
22:13:11 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:13:11 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, janina
22:13:19 [janina]
zakim, close item 2
22:13:19 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Actions Review, closed
22:13:21 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:13:23 [Zakim]
1. Identify Scribe [from janina]
22:13:30 [janina]
zakim, take up item 3
22:13:30 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "moving our User Requirements to W3C Note status?" taken up [from janina]
22:13:57 [janina]
jb: Is there value to moving toward note status for our User Requirements?
22:14:18 [janina]
phl: No?
22:15:07 [janina]
jf: is wiki sufficient? will it last?
22:15:15 [janina]
js: my concern as well.
22:15:32 [janina]
phl: gives more visibility, certainly.
22:16:09 [janina]
jf: something we can do, but no need to hurry on it.
22:16:11 [janina]
phl: yes
22:16:46 [janina]
phl: Having as a note will not help within html wg, but if there's longer term value, than that's another reason.
22:17:04 [janina]
jf: Perhaps as a wrap up task?
22:17:09 [janina]
js: Agrees
22:17:57 [janina]
zakim, close item
22:17:57 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close item', janina
22:18:03 [janina]
zakim, close item 3
22:18:03 [Zakim]
agendum 3, moving our User Requirements to W3C Note status?, closed
22:18:04 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:18:05 [Zakim]
1. Identify Scribe [from janina]
22:18:11 [janina]
zakim, take up item 4
22:18:11 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Technical Primitives Development" taken up [from janina]
22:18:51 [janina]
jf: has anyone done any work on this? comments?
22:19:05 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:19:05 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
22:20:09 [silvia]
22:20:56 [janina]
sp: We need to work on it more, phps as we look at proposed formats.
22:21:05 [janina]
sp: I believe our user reqs are the most useful
22:23:50 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:23:50 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
22:24:56 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:24:56 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
22:28:46 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:28:46 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
22:29:35 [janina]
js: Suggesting a view from engineering is helpful. Maybe it's the user list with comments on amount of work to implement, etc,
22:29:51 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:29:51 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
22:29:52 [janina]
jf: We need a gaps analysis -- the need to have
22:30:13 [janina]
jf: I believe the engineers understand what we need on the easy stuff
22:30:34 [janina]
sp: Is it part of our user reqs that we need sign language implemented from multiple files?
22:31:30 [janina]
sp: Not convinced that we need third party sign language
22:32:15 [janina]
ec: One problem with included track is mpeg4 can only contain one video
22:32:29 [janina]
ec: also webm
22:33:14 [janina]
sh: there are formats on top of mp4 which do have multiple video, so not a structuring constraint, it's just mpeg didn't have our use cases
22:33:30 [janina]
ec: If you can find authoring software that will support that
22:33:39 [janina]
sh: Can do that
22:34:25 [janina]
sh: In case of sl, I've done it with two videos, doesn't need to be actually frame sync'd; because the grammar is so different, the ordering can be looser
22:34:31 [janina]
sh: approx is good
22:35:27 [janina]
js: value from user req of sl in second file is community isn't dependent on the original author--third party can provide sl
22:36:01 [janina]
jf: would i do css placement? for a pip type experience?
22:36:25 [janina]
jf: phps a large view port for sl if i'm looking at my iPhone, vs on my plasma tv
22:37:23 [janina]
sh: if you just want signer with fixed mat, then fairly easy to transparent on top of primary; if moving mat, that's much harder
22:37:27 [Zakim]
22:37:34 [janina]
ec: also not many formats preserve the alpha channel
22:37:36 [Zakim]
22:37:36 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:37:36 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
22:37:48 [plh]
zakim, drop plh
22:37:48 [Zakim]
Plh is being disconnected
22:37:49 [janina]
sh: a little hard to compose in real time
22:37:49 [Zakim]
22:37:53 [Zakim]
22:38:35 [mkobayas]
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22:38:42 [janina]
kj: Want to provide ebook and daisy perspective -- this wg very important to these groups.
22:39:02 [janina]
kj: recently had daisy mtg on these topics with thought of making suggestions here
22:39:38 [janina]
kj: so daisy4 is using time text, ttml to sync video and captioning
22:40:32 [janina]
kj: discussed that thtml+time;
22:40:56 [janina]
kj: svg extracted from smil -- took what they needed into their own space
22:41:20 [janina]
jf: i think that's similar to websrt, taken what they needed from css and left the rest
22:42:00 [janina]
kj: benefits could support extended audio, because smil3 allows to build
22:42:26 [janina]
kj: smil3 allows pause injection, so supports extended audio that way
22:42:57 [janina]
kj: also escapability is important -- click a link in caption -- pauses primary asset while second asset is loaded.
22:43:08 [janina]
kj: once it's closed, smil3 supports resume where paused
22:43:36 [janina]
kj: don't believe smil can be adopted in its current form, but might it be possible to take what we need and leave the rest?
22:43:40 [janina]
phl: phps so
22:44:13 [janina]
phl: but what about a timing model -- there's none in html
22:44:25 [janina]
phl: css, a primitve timing, phps
22:44:39 [janina]
phl: microsoft did timing a long time ago, so is phps more ready for this
22:44:47 [janina]
ec: well put
22:45:08 [plh]
22:45:20 [Zakim]
22:45:26 [Zakim]
22:45:26 [janina]
jf: so that's where we are in primitives
22:45:55 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:45:55 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
22:45:58 [plh]
s/phps so/it's possible to profile smil 3 to our needs/
22:47:22 [plh]
s/css, a primitve timing, phps/they have primitive timing model in svg (smil animation) and css (css transition/animation), but nothing in their existing html implementation code, at least for firefox, opera, safari, and google/
22:47:52 [janina]
ec: would do, but am overloaded right now
22:48:10 [plh]
s/did a timing a long time ago, so is phps more ready for this/did html+time a long time so they have the code already, so they're probably the most advanced here/
22:48:11 [janina]
ec: i do think it well worth our time to prioritize
22:48:32 [janina]
ec: we really need a prioritized list
22:49:04 [janina]
jf: it needs to be a group consensus
22:49:50 [janina]
action: john to create a prioritized list due 30 august
22:49:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-52 - Create a prioritized list due 30 august [on John Foliot - due 2010-08-18].
22:51:14 [janina]
sp: suggest you do this in a table
22:51:33 [janina]
sp: including what's already supported
22:52:04 [janina]
zakim, close item 4
22:52:04 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Technical Primitives Development, closed
22:52:05 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:52:07 [Zakim]
1. Identify Scribe [from janina]
22:52:25 [janina]
zakim, close item 1
22:52:25 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
22:52:26 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:52:28 [Zakim]
5. Candidate Solutions Gap Analysis: WebSRT; WMML, Etc. [from janina]
22:52:42 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:52:42 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Candidate Solutions Gap Analysis: WebSRT; WMML, Etc." taken up [from janina]
22:53:23 [janina]
sp: suggest we can contribute feedback usefully to websrt, they're soliciting comments
22:53:44 [janina]
sp: but it isn't just websrt, there's also a js api
22:53:52 [janina]
sp; and ml in the formats
22:54:36 [janina]
jf: has the framework changed significantly, since our stanford mtg?
22:54:56 [janina]
jf: is track group now gone?
22:55:08 [janina]
jf: what should we be aware of?
22:55:51 [janina]
sp: trying to understand whether our reqs are met by this spec
22:56:31 [janina]
sp: trying to find out how involved this grp wants to be in tek spec and making sure our reqs are met
22:57:07 [janina]
jf: for myself, i'm less worried about the tek, but very concerned that we understand the user reqs
22:57:37 [janina]
js: ditto. not religous on tech selected, though prefer open tech. but care that we meet the identified user needs
22:58:39 [janina]
phl: silvia, will websrt fulfil our reqs?
22:59:00 [janina]
sp: haven't looked at it all -- that's why i want that table started -- so we can answer this question precisely
22:59:25 [janina]
sp: believe it's satisfying time sync for text
22:59:33 [janina]
sp: don't believe it's doing more than text
22:59:57 [janina]
sp: i've made suggestions on the rest, and believe they would satisfy if accepted
22:59:59 [janina]
ec: agree
23:00:17 [janina]
phl: so websrt is a contender
23:00:30 [janina]
phl: would time text fulfill?
23:00:53 [janina]
sh: yes. reason they're doing srt, is that people there don't like tt for various reasons i don't fully understand
23:01:10 [janina]
jf: believe the prejudice may be the aversion to xml
23:01:16 [janina]
jf: namespaces
23:01:40 [janina]
sh: but websrt is using bits of xml, but would be hard to embed websrt into xml
23:02:02 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
23:02:02 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
23:02:29 [janina]
js: might make it hard for groups like daisy and idpf to adopt our technology
23:03:02 [janina]
kj: that's correct. for daisy we don't know how we would sync multiple audio/video without xml
23:03:29 [janina]
phl: phps allow users to choose?
23:03:41 [janina]
sh: but why does the track mechanism need to specify the lang?
23:04:20 [janina]
phl: we could specify a minimum lang support requirement?
23:05:34 [janina]
jf: so i can't support tif in all browsers -- so we need some reliable format specs
23:05:47 [janina]
sh: in a perfect world we'd have a video format as well ...
23:06:21 [janina]
jf: seems content formats will need to produce in at least two formats for the forseeable future
23:06:38 [janina]
jf: do we do the same in time sync? may be a bad idea -- won't be done
23:06:59 [janina]
jf: so we should specify at least one -- support this one -- feel free to support others
23:07:24 [janina]
sh: we've had that argument with every format that's been introduced, suspect this maynot happen
23:07:29 [janina]
jf: hope you're wrong! <grin>
23:08:44 [janina]
jf: can we get to a recommendation on this?
23:08:58 [janina]
kj: what formats can do text, audio, and video sync for us? what are the candidates
23:09:17 [JF]
I agree with you silvia
23:09:20 [janina]
js: that's the key question
23:09:25 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
23:09:25 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
23:09:39 [janina]
kj: other than a subset of smil, i don't see an option
23:10:08 [janina]
jf: don't care myself if it's smil, if the brosers can come up with another way to do it
23:10:10 [janina]
kj: agree
23:10:17 [janina]
js: agree
23:11:10 [janina]
sp: ogg can do it, mpeg4, ...
23:11:16 [janina]
ec: i think a misunderstanding here
23:11:34 [janina]
ec: believe kenny is suggesting an external controller
23:11:53 [janina]
sp: wasn't sure if external was a req
23:12:01 [janina]
sp: with external, yes, we have some work to do
23:12:38 [janina]
sp: and that's exactly where our reqs haven't been considered
23:12:47 [janina]
kj: yes, and in the container space.
23:12:56 [janina]
kj: what director sync's it all
23:13:31 [janina]
phl: are we brining in additional reqs beyond a11y? if from epub?
23:13:52 [janina]
phl: just want to be careful on that.
23:14:06 [janina]
sh: we do have structure reqs, that are very similar
23:14:28 [janina]
sh: the ability to nav to different points in the timeline is an a11y req
23:15:15 [janina]
jf: and we get these reqs because people already have these behaviors and would expect them in html5
23:15:47 [janina]
kj: if there are to be separate tracks, the sync question becomes critical
23:15:57 [janina]
kj: it's not a daisy problem, because we've spec'd that
23:15:59 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
23:15:59 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
23:16:22 [janina]
ec:if the model is that the main resource provides the time line, and everything else is child behavior then there's no issue
23:16:33 [janina]
ec: it's only when the additional files are out of sync that there's a problem.
23:16:57 [janina]
sh: doesn't quite work, because, eg., the description needs to be sync'd at a certain point -- this descript here at this video point, etc
23:17:11 [Zakim]
23:17:20 [janina]
js: and may need to be active when the main resource is paused
23:17:57 [janina]
jf: appreciate that this is complex for tech, but believe it's a user 'must'
23:18:29 [Zakim]
23:18:32 [janina]
jf: from my perspective, it's easier to present the user reqs and request solutions
23:18:33 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
23:18:33 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
23:19:30 [Zakim]
23:19:44 [janina]
jf: we all agree the primary resource is the master time line; q is how to fire adaptive at particular points in that tl
23:20:05 [janina]
ec: without a prioritization of each of the user reqs, don't see we can call any req a 'must'
23:21:55 [janina]
jf: i think we have an informal understanding of what we need to achieve, at what priority -- well --
23:22:08 [janina]
jf: any solution we come forward with needs to see the rest getting accomplished
23:22:43 [janina]
kj: fundamental question that needs to be answered is do we want to delegate sync to a container, or manage it ourselves?
23:23:02 [janina]
phl: don't understand, how does that simplify or complicate
23:23:43 [janina]
kj: if you say it's all bundled, then it's all up to the author, and that's all there will be
23:23:54 [janina]
jf: that's a bad path
23:24:17 [janina]
jf: put it all in the media container is not a good solution
23:24:38 [janina]
kj: so if we need to do it outside the container, then it becomes clear what we need to do going forward
23:24:51 [janina]
phl: but which tech?
23:25:07 [janina]
phl: ogg and mpet have just one tl, can't do what we need
23:25:30 [janina]
kj: if the sl is burned in, then everything is simple
23:25:32 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
23:25:32 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
23:25:48 [janina]
kj: but, i want to be clear that we're saying we want to be able to sync separate tracks with the primary
23:25:56 [janina]
jf: yes, third parties should be able to add
23:26:20 [janina]
js: like the disable dstudent services office at my U
23:26:52 [janina]
jf: the only wah for dss to add sl would be a separate sl video for the primary resource
23:27:02 [janina]
phl: not the only way
23:27:25 [janina]
jf: could take into
23:27:57 [janina]
jf: so that's a video -- have video produced in U.S., but I need to create subtitles in Quebec, where it's a legal req
23:28:16 [janina]
jf: and they'll produce multi language, that's also a legal req
23:28:43 [janina]
jf: so how do we allow these to happen
23:28:52 [janina]
jf: so my answer we can't push this on the container
23:29:02 [janina]
zakim, who's on the phone?
23:29:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, Sean, Plh, John_Foliot, Eric, Kenny_Johar, Silvia, Judy
23:29:39 [janina]
sp: we're discussing tech solutions, do we actually have a requirement on external? is it stated
23:29:45 [janina]
js: i thought i wrote it -- third party
23:29:54 [janina]
jf: we need to double check this
23:30:07 [janina]
kj: this single question has a huge bearing on our task
23:30:19 [davidb]
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23:30:34 [janina]
jf: believe the larger answer is we don't want to hand this off to the container, we have to provide for it
23:30:59 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
23:30:59 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
23:30:59 [janina]
jf: so we're at our mtg ending time ... good work getting done
23:31:23 [janina]
jf: we need to get that table up, so we can start mapping to it -- it's my action -- and we'll go through a prioritization exercise
23:31:29 [janina]
jf: i'll map to wcag
23:31:34 [janina]
jf: and we should wbs it
23:31:43 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
23:31:50 [janina]
rrsagent make minutes
23:32:23 [Zakim]
23:32:26 [Zakim]
23:32:27 [Zakim]
23:32:33 [Zakim]
23:32:40 [janina]
zakim, bye
23:32:40 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Janina, Sean, Plh, John_Foliot, Eric, Silvia, Kenny_Johar, Judy
23:32:40 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:32:46 [janina]
rrsagent make minutes
23:39:59 [Judy]
Judy has joined #html-a11y
23:41:11 [Judy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
23:41:52 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-a11y
23:41:55 [Judy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
23:41:55 [Zakim]
sorry, Judy, I don't know what conference this is
23:41:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Judy, davidb, mkobayas, kenny_j, eric_carlson, JF, plh, RRSAgent, janina, silvia, trackbot
23:43:14 [janina]
zakim, who's on the phone?
23:43:14 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
23:43:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Judy, davidb, mkobayas, kenny_j, eric_carlson, JF, plh, RRSAgent, janina, silvia, trackbot
23:44:40 [Judy]
zakim, this is wai
23:44:40 [Zakim]
ok, Judy; that matches WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM
23:44:50 [Judy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
23:44:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, John_Foliot, Judy
23:45:13 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:45:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate janina
23:45:27 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
23:45:33 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:45:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate janina
23:58:10 [Judy]
Judy has joined #html-a11y