21:58:57 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:58:57 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/11-html-a11y-irc
21:59:02 zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
21:59:02 ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
21:59:12 zakim, call janina
21:59:12 ok, janina; the call is being made
21:59:13 WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM has now started
21:59:14 +Janina
21:59:34 zakim, who is on the phone?
21:59:34 On the phone I see Janina
21:59:55 +Sean
22:01:51 zakim, ack me
22:01:51 I see no one on the speaker queue
22:01:55 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
22:01:55 Chair: John_Foliot
22:01:55 agenda: this
22:01:55 agenda+ Identify Scribe
22:01:55 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
22:01:56 action+ Activity Updates -- Proof of Concept; Content Contributions
22:01:58 agenda+ moving our User Requirements to W3C Note status?
22:01:59 plh has joined #html-a11y
22:02:00 agenda+ Technical Primitives Development
22:02:02 agenda+ Candidate Solutions Gap Analysis: WebSRT; WMML, Etc.
22:02:05 agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
22:02:06 agenda+ be done
22:02:08
22:02:17 +Plh
22:02:23 zakim, drop plh
22:02:23 Plh is being disconnected
22:02:24 -Plh
22:02:28 +Plh
22:02:37 +John_Foliot
22:03:57 zakim, who's on the phone?
22:03:57 On the phone I see Janina, Sean, Plh, John_Foliot
22:04:15 JF has joined #html-a11y
22:04:22 hello
22:04:37 zakim, who's here?
22:04:37 On the phone I see Janina, Sean, Plh, John_Foliot
22:04:38 On IRC I see JF, plh, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, silvia, trackbot
22:04:39 +Eric
22:04:54 agenda?
22:04:55 zakim, who's here?
22:05:04 eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
22:05:12 On the phone I see Janina, Sean, Plh, John_Foliot, Eric
22:05:16 On IRC I see JF, plh, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, silvia, trackbot
22:08:38 kenny_j has joined #html-a11y
22:09:22 +Silvia
22:09:30 +Kenny_Johar
22:09:38 zakim, mute me
22:09:38 Silvia should now be muted
22:11:14 -Plh
22:11:21 +Plh
22:12:24 scribe: janina
22:12:32 zakim, takeup action 2
22:12:32 I don't understand 'takeup action 2', janina
22:12:40 zakim, take up item 2
22:12:40 agendum 2. "Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open" taken up [from janina]
22:12:55 jf: primarily long range on Judy.
22:13:11 zakim, next item
22:13:11 agendum 2 was just opened, janina
22:13:19 zakim, close item 2
22:13:19 agendum 2, Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open, closed
22:13:21 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:13:23 1. Identify Scribe [from janina]
22:13:30 zakim, take up item 3
22:13:30 agendum 3. "moving our User Requirements to W3C Note status?" taken up [from janina]
22:13:57 jb: Is there value to moving toward note status for our User Requirements?
22:14:18 phl: No?
22:15:07 jf: is wiki sufficient? will it last?
22:15:15 js: my concern as well.
22:15:32 phl: gives more visibility, certainly.
22:16:09 jf: something we can do, but no need to hurry on it.
22:16:11 phl: yes
22:16:46 phl: Having as a note will not help within html wg, but if there's longer term value, than that's another reason.
22:17:04 jf: Perhaps as a wrap up task?
22:17:09 js: Agrees
22:17:57 zakim, close item
22:17:57 I don't understand 'close item', janina
22:18:03 zakim, close item 3
22:18:03 agendum 3, moving our User Requirements to W3C Note status?, closed
22:18:04 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:18:05 1. Identify Scribe [from janina]
22:18:11 zakim, take up item 4
22:18:11 agendum 4. "Technical Primitives Development" taken up [from janina]
22:18:51 jf: has anyone done any work on this? comments?
22:19:05 zakim, unmute me
22:19:05 Silvia should no longer be muted
22:20:09 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements
22:20:56 sp: We need to work on it more, phps as we look at proposed formats.
22:21:05 sp: I believe our user reqs are the most useful
22:23:50 zakim, mute me
22:23:50 Silvia should now be muted
22:24:56 zakim, unmute me
22:24:56 Silvia should no longer be muted
22:28:46 zakim, mute me
22:28:46 Silvia should now be muted
22:29:35 js: Suggesting a view from engineering is helpful. Maybe it's the user list with comments on amount of work to implement, etc,
22:29:51 zakim, unmute me
22:29:51 Silvia should no longer be muted
22:29:52 jf: We need a gaps analysis -- the need to have
22:30:13 jf: I believe the engineers understand what we need on the easy stuff
22:30:34 sp: Is it part of our user reqs that we need sign language implemented from multiple files?
22:31:30 sp: Not convinced that we need third party sign language
22:32:15 ec: One problem with included track is mpeg4 can only contain one video
22:32:29 ec: also webm
22:33:14 sh: there are formats on top of mp4 which do have multiple video, so not a structuring constraint, it's just mpeg didn't have our use cases
22:33:30 ec: If you can find authoring software that will support that
22:33:39 sh: Can do that
22:34:25 sh: In case of sl, I've done it with two videos, doesn't need to be actually frame sync'd; because the grammar is so different, the ordering can be looser
22:34:31 sh: approx is good
22:35:27 js: value from user req of sl in second file is community isn't dependent on the original author--third party can provide sl
22:36:01 jf: would i do css placement? for a pip type experience?
22:36:25 jf: phps a large view port for sl if i'm looking at my iPhone, vs on my plasma tv
22:37:23 sh: if you just want signer with fixed mat, then fairly easy to transparent on top of primary; if moving mat, that's much harder
22:37:27 -Plh
22:37:34 ec: also not many formats preserve the alpha channel
22:37:36 +Plh
22:37:36 zakim, mute me
22:37:36 Silvia should now be muted
22:37:48 zakim, drop plh
22:37:48 Plh is being disconnected
22:37:49 sh: a little hard to compose in real time
22:37:49 -Plh
22:37:53 +Plh
22:38:35 mkobayas has joined #html-a11y
22:38:42 kj: Want to provide ebook and daisy perspective -- this wg very important to these groups.
22:39:02 kj: recently had daisy mtg on these topics with thought of making suggestions here
22:39:38 kj: so daisy4 is using time text, ttml to sync video and captioning
22:40:32 kj: discussed that thtml+time;
22:40:56 kj: svg extracted from smil -- took what they needed into their own space
22:41:20 jf: i think that's similar to websrt, taken what they needed from css and left the rest
22:42:00 kj: benefits could support extended audio, because smil3 allows to build
22:42:26 kj: smil3 allows pause injection, so supports extended audio that way
22:42:57 kj: also escapability is important -- click a link in caption -- pauses primary asset while second asset is loaded.
22:43:08 kj: once it's closed, smil3 supports resume where paused
22:43:36 kj: don't believe smil can be adopted in its current form, but might it be possible to take what we need and leave the rest?
22:43:40 phl: phps so
22:44:13 phl: but what about a timing model -- there's none in html
22:44:25 phl: css, a primitve timing, phps
22:44:39 phl: microsoft did timing a long time ago, so is phps more ready for this
22:44:47 ec: well put
22:45:08 s/phl/plh/g
22:45:20 -Plh
22:45:26 +Plh
22:45:26 jf: so that's where we are in primitives
22:45:55 zakim, unmute me
22:45:55 Silvia should no longer be muted
22:45:58 s/phps so/it's possible to profile smil 3 to our needs/
22:47:22 s/css, a primitve timing, phps/they have primitive timing model in svg (smil animation) and css (css transition/animation), but nothing in their existing html implementation code, at least for firefox, opera, safari, and google/
22:47:52 ec: would do, but am overloaded right now
22:48:10 s/did a timing a long time ago, so is phps more ready for this/did html+time a long time so they have the code already, so they're probably the most advanced here/
22:48:11 ec: i do think it well worth our time to prioritize
22:48:32 ec: we really need a prioritized list
22:49:04 jf: it needs to be a group consensus
22:49:50 action: john to create a prioritized list due 30 august
22:49:51 Created ACTION-52 - Create a prioritized list due 30 august [on John Foliot - due 2010-08-18].
22:51:14 sp: suggest you do this in a table
22:51:33 sp: including what's already supported
22:52:04 zakim, close item 4
22:52:04 agendum 4, Technical Primitives Development, closed
22:52:05 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:52:07 1. Identify Scribe [from janina]
22:52:25 zakim, close item 1
22:52:25 agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
22:52:26 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:52:28 5. Candidate Solutions Gap Analysis: WebSRT; WMML, Etc. [from janina]
22:52:42 zakim, next item
22:52:42 agendum 5. "Candidate Solutions Gap Analysis: WebSRT; WMML, Etc." taken up [from janina]
22:53:23 sp: suggest we can contribute feedback usefully to websrt, they're soliciting comments
22:53:44 sp: but it isn't just websrt, there's also a js api
22:53:52 sp; and ml in the formats
22:54:36 jf: has the framework changed significantly, since our stanford mtg?
22:54:56 jf: is track group now gone?
22:55:08 jf: what should we be aware of?
22:55:51 sp: trying to understand whether our reqs are met by this spec
22:56:31 sp: trying to find out how involved this grp wants to be in tek spec and making sure our reqs are met
22:57:07 jf: for myself, i'm less worried about the tek, but very concerned that we understand the user reqs
22:57:37 js: ditto. not religous on tech selected, though prefer open tech. but care that we meet the identified user needs
22:58:39 phl: silvia, will websrt fulfil our reqs?
22:59:00 sp: haven't looked at it all -- that's why i want that table started -- so we can answer this question precisely
22:59:25 sp: believe it's satisfying time sync for text
22:59:33 sp: don't believe it's doing more than text
22:59:57 sp: i've made suggestions on the rest, and believe they would satisfy if accepted
22:59:59 ec: agree
23:00:17 phl: so websrt is a contender
23:00:30 phl: would time text fulfill?
23:00:53 sh: yes. reason they're doing srt, is that people there don't like tt for various reasons i don't fully understand
23:01:10 jf: believe the prejudice may be the aversion to xml
23:01:16 jf: namespaces
23:01:40 sh: but websrt is using bits of xml, but would be hard to embed websrt into xml
23:02:02 zakim, mute me
23:02:02 Silvia should now be muted
23:02:29 js: might make it hard for groups like daisy and idpf to adopt our technology
23:03:02 kj: that's correct. for daisy we don't know how we would sync multiple audio/video without xml
23:03:29 phl: phps allow users to choose?
23:03:41 sh: but why does the track mechanism need to specify the lang?
23:04:20 phl: we could specify a minimum lang support requirement?
23:05:34 jf: so i can't support tif in all browsers -- so we need some reliable format specs
23:05:47 sh: in a perfect world we'd have a video format as well ...
23:06:21 jf: seems content formats will need to produce in at least two formats for the forseeable future
23:06:38 jf: do we do the same in time sync? may be a bad idea -- won't be done
23:06:59 jf: so we should specify at least one -- support this one -- feel free to support others
23:07:24 sh: we've had that argument with every format that's been introduced, suspect this maynot happen
23:07:29 jf: hope you're wrong!
23:08:44 jf: can we get to a recommendation on this?
23:08:58 kj: what formats can do text, audio, and video sync for us? what are the candidates
23:09:17 I agree with you silvia
23:09:20 js: that's the key question
23:09:25 zakim, unmute me
23:09:25 Silvia should no longer be muted
23:09:39 kj: other than a subset of smil, i don't see an option
23:10:08 jf: don't care myself if it's smil, if the brosers can come up with another way to do it
23:10:10 kj: agree
23:10:17 js: agree
23:11:10 sp: ogg can do it, mpeg4, ...
23:11:16 ec: i think a misunderstanding here
23:11:34 ec: believe kenny is suggesting an external controller
23:11:53 sp: wasn't sure if external was a req
23:12:01 sp: with external, yes, we have some work to do
23:12:38 sp: and that's exactly where our reqs haven't been considered
23:12:47 kj: yes, and in the container space.
23:12:56 kj: what director sync's it all
23:13:31 phl: are we brining in additional reqs beyond a11y? if from epub?
23:13:52 phl: just want to be careful on that.
23:14:06 sh: we do have structure reqs, that are very similar
23:14:28 sh: the ability to nav to different points in the timeline is an a11y req
23:15:15 jf: and we get these reqs because people already have these behaviors and would expect them in html5
23:15:47 kj: if there are to be separate tracks, the sync question becomes critical
23:15:57 kj: it's not a daisy problem, because we've spec'd that
23:15:59 zakim, mute me
23:15:59 Silvia should now be muted
23:16:22 ec:if the model is that the main resource provides the time line, and everything else is child behavior then there's no issue
23:16:33 ec: it's only when the additional files are out of sync that there's a problem.
23:16:57 sh: doesn't quite work, because, eg., the description needs to be sync'd at a certain point -- this descript here at this video point, etc
23:17:11 -Silvia
23:17:20 js: and may need to be active when the main resource is paused
23:17:57 jf: appreciate that this is complex for tech, but believe it's a user 'must'
23:18:29 +Silvia
23:18:32 jf: from my perspective, it's easier to present the user reqs and request solutions
23:18:33 zakim, mute me
23:18:33 Silvia should now be muted
23:19:30 +Judy
23:19:44 jf: we all agree the primary resource is the master time line; q is how to fire adaptive at particular points in that tl
23:20:05 ec: without a prioritization of each of the user reqs, don't see we can call any req a 'must'
23:21:55 jf: i think we have an informal understanding of what we need to achieve, at what priority -- well --
23:22:08 jf: any solution we come forward with needs to see the rest getting accomplished
23:22:43 kj: fundamental question that needs to be answered is do we want to delegate sync to a container, or manage it ourselves?
23:23:02 phl: don't understand, how does that simplify or complicate
23:23:43 kj: if you say it's all bundled, then it's all up to the author, and that's all there will be
23:23:54 jf: that's a bad path
23:24:17 jf: put it all in the media container is not a good solution
23:24:38 kj: so if we need to do it outside the container, then it becomes clear what we need to do going forward
23:24:51