15:35:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:35:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/11-CSS-irc
15:35:17 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:35:17 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
15:35:22 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:46:38 <arronei> arronei has joined #CSS
15:52:44 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:52:49 <Zakim> +dsinger
15:53:12 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
15:54:04 <dsinger> Zakim, who is here?
15:54:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger
15:54:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, arronei, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou_bbl, MoZ, dbaron, nimbupani, gsnedders, Curt`, szilles, miketaylr, krijnh, plinss, karl, lgombos, tabatkins, Hixie, Peter,
15:54:07 <Zakim> ... lhnz, anne, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, jgraham
15:54:18 <dsinger> zakim, mute dsinger
15:54:18 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
15:55:18 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
15:55:21 <Zakim> -dsinger
15:55:22 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
15:55:22 <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger
15:55:43 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:45 <dethbakin> dethbakin has joined #css
15:55:50 <Zakim> +dsinger
15:56:07 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
15:56:34 <dsinger> zakim, who is here?
15:56:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger
15:56:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, dethbakin, oyvind, arronei, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dbaron, nimbupani, gsnedders, Curt`, szilles, miketaylr, krijnh, plinss, karl, lgombos, tabatkins, Hixie,
15:56:38 <Zakim> ... Peter, lhnz, anne, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, jgraham
15:59:18 <Zakim> + +1.617.650.aaaa
15:59:22 <dethbakin> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:59:22 <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
15:59:22 <dsinger> zakim, mute dsinger
15:59:23 <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
15:59:53 <Zakim> +glazou
16:00:07 <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
16:00:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger (muted), dethbakin, glazou
16:00:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, dethbakin, oyvind, arronei, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dbaron, nimbupani, gsnedders, Curt`, szilles, miketaylr, krijnh, plinss, karl, lgombos, tabatkins, Hixie,
16:00:13 <Zakim> ... Peter, lhnz, anne, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, jgraham
16:00:31 <glazou> hi dsinger 
16:00:37 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:00:39 <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
16:00:39 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:01:16 <Zakim> +plinss_
16:01:29 <Zakim> +??P20
16:02:15 <plinss> zakim, ?P20 is fantasai
16:02:15 <Zakim> sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '?P20'
16:02:21 <Zakim> +David_Baron
16:02:30 <dsinger> Zakim, ??p20 is fantasai 
16:02:30 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:03:24 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
16:03:34 <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aabb
16:03:43 <glazou> dsinger: trying to make us avoid next ftf ?-)
16:03:45 <Zakim> +sylvaing
16:03:53 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
16:05:43 <glazou> dsinger: sun for the 22nd, probability 2/5
16:06:55 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:08:05 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:08:07 <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
16:08:28 <dbaron> Zakim, +47 is howcome
16:08:28 <Zakim> +howcome; got it
16:08:29 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:08:44 <dbaron> Topic: face-to-face meeting
16:08:49 <dbaron> howcome: any questions about f2f?
16:08:57 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:09:29 <Zakim> +Bert
16:09:49 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:10:31 <dbaron> SteveZ: Wanted to add one thing to agenda; will send email.
16:10:34 <dbaron> Topic: test suite
16:10:49 <dbaron> fantasai: Arron and I went through issues list and identified which issues need tests.
16:10:59 <dbaron> fantasai: want to do beta3 at end of week
16:11:33 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
16:11:34 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
16:11:39 <dbaron> Topic: CSS 2.1 issue 185
16:11:43 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #css
16:11:44 <fantasai> fantasai: Please try to get in fixes by the end of the week
16:11:48 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-185
16:12:45 <dbaron> I had a proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0178.html
16:12:47 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
16:12:47 <fantasai> fantasai: The mailing list also brought up the question of negative-height floats
16:13:20 <fantasai> dbaron: I do prefer the idea that zero-height floats don't push line boxes, because it's easier to think about the range we're dealing with
16:15:24 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
16:16:48 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
16:16:50 <fantasai> fantasai: And negative height floats would also be excluded because they can't satisfy both c and d at the same time
16:16:59 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:17:04 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:17:04 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:17:16 <Zakim> -dsinger
16:17:39 <dbaron> ok, so maybe s/is a vertical position/exists a point/ and add Note: this means that floats with zero height or negative height do not move line boxes.
16:17:47 <fantasai> fantasai: I would be okay with this if there was a note saying that zero-height floats don't affect line boxes (and maybe explain why that's the case wrt wording in the text)
16:18:31 <ChrisL> maybe change "when there is" to "when there exists" and 
16:18:33 <fantasai> fantasai: Could we change "not above" to "below or at"? I think that would help
16:18:48 <ChrisL> that is to "that satisfies all of these four conditions
16:19:55 <fantasai> Bert: So this means the zero or negative height float won't affect line boxes next to it
16:20:05 <fantasai> Bert: but if it has clear, it still can affect layout around it
16:20:13 <fantasai> Bert: What about floats next to floats, are those rules clear?
16:20:20 <fantasai> dbaron: I think they're clear, but it might be worth rereading
16:20:56 <fantasai>                 Note: this means that floats with zero height or negative 
16:20:56 <fantasai>                 height do not move line boxes.
16:21:01 <fantasai> oops
16:21:07 <fantasai> In other words, we could add a sentence after (maybe immediately
16:21:07 <fantasai> after, maybe a little later): # However, line boxes created next to the float are shortened to # make room for the margin box of the float.
16:21:10 <fantasai> that says something like: | A line box is next to a float when there exists a vertical position | that satisfies all of these four conditions: | (a) at or below the top of the line box, (b) at or above the | bottom of the line box, (c) below the top margin edge of the | float, and (d) above the bottom margin edge of the float. | Note: this means that floats with zero height or negative
16:21:16 <fantasai>  | heght do not m ove line boxes.
16:21:18 <fantasai> ....
16:21:49 <fantasai> Arron: I have a testcase for zero-height floats in the middle of the line box.
16:21:59 <fantasai> ...
16:22:45 <fantasai> dbaron: Last I checked neither Opera nor Webkit handle positive height floats in the middle of the line anyway
16:23:11 <dbaron> maybe Opera is ok; my memory is a little fuzzy
16:24:01 <fantasai> dbaron and Arron discuss the testcase
16:25:50 <arronei> http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/microsoft/incoming/float-zero-height.htm
16:26:23 <fantasai> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/766057
16:27:49 <gsnedders> Opera indeed doesn't handle it
16:29:59 <fantasai> Peter: Any other comments on the proposal?
16:30:19 <fantasai> ChrisL: I'm hearing disagreement on which implementations need to change, but everyone seems to like the wording.
16:30:32 <fantasai> RESOLVED: dbaron's proposal accepted as modified above
16:31:40 <fantasai> Peter: CSS2.1 Issue 118
16:31:43 <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-118
16:33:06 <glazou> +1
16:33:42 <fantasai> Steve: The existing text makes a reference to centering, but it's not clear what it centers or what it means.
16:33:56 <fantasai> Steve: The text I suggested clarifies that, and Bert confirms that's what it means
16:34:35 <glazou> Zakim, mute me
16:34:35 <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
16:34:45 <fantasai> Bert: I will try to avoid the word "centering"; your text describes what actually should be done.
16:35:14 <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
16:35:14 <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
16:36:21 <fantasai> WG votes to resolve on this now and protest Bert's edits afterwards if necessary
16:36:37 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Bert's proposal accepted with Steve's modifications as to be edited in by Bert
16:37:41 <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-144
16:39:51 <fantasai> dbaron: Given the new model for text decoration that we haven't implemented yet, I would follow Opera's lead on question one
16:40:34 <fantasai> arronei: I'm running the tests and everyone shows the underline
16:40:45 <fantasai> ChrisL: Is there a use case for showing the nderline under invisible text?
16:40:58 <fantasai> fantasai: No, it's just something that falls out of the previous model.
16:41:35 <fantasai> fantasai: It doesn't make much sense to show the underline if you're trying to hide something.
16:41:59 <glazou> Gecko 2.0 underlines once the whole thing
16:42:20 <fantasai> ChrisL: Then perhaps we should change it to be more useful, not as likely to break things.
16:42:33 <fantasai> ChrisL: But if we don't have implementations, that will hold back PR.
16:42:40 <fantasai> Steve: We could go with "it's undefined".
16:43:15 <fantasai> dbaron: I think we're already at the place where most implementations disagree with the spec on text-decoration, and we're planning to fix it but we haven't gotten around to it yet
16:43:29 <fantasai> Steve: So you're going to have to change it to match the current 2.1 text anyway
16:43:42 <fantasai> Steve: If that's true, fine, we'll just make it another piece of the model change.
16:44:09 <fantasai> fantasai: we could change it and mark it at-risk
16:45:32 <fantasai> Seem to have agreement that if the text isn't there, the underline shouldn't be either.
16:46:37 <fantasai> Bert: I would expect to see the blue line, but not the red one in that email
16:49:05 <fantasai> fantasai summarizes Appendix E's contents
16:49:35 <fantasai> fantasai: If you want the underline visible but not the text, you can make the text transparent.
16:51:28 <fantasai> Bert and Peter discuss the underlining model -- specifically that the underline is continuous through the child elements, and if they have underlines they are additional (may paint over)
16:51:53 <fantasai> Steve: I'm confused about what the current model is.
16:52:03 <fantasai> Steve: There's two ways of thinking about it. One is, the property draws an underline
16:52:22 <fantasai> Steve: The other way is that it turns on a mode so that each glyph draws its own piece of the underline
16:52:31 <fantasai> Steve: I thought that the latter model is what the new one is doing
16:54:41 <fantasai> fantasai explains the current model
16:56:04 <fantasai> fantasai: The question is now whether the underline is drawn with the color *and* visibility of the underlining element, or it uses the visibility of the element with the text being underline
16:56:08 <fantasai> dd
16:56:43 <fantasai> Steve: Suppose that you're animating the text to disappear, so the underline is there. What should happen at the end of the animation?
16:56:51 <fantasai> Steve: Does the underline now jump to the text around it?
16:57:21 <fantasai> Bert: The underline's position can be adapted to the child elements; it doesn't have to but it may.
16:57:38 <fantasai> (but it has to be a single line per linebox)
17:00:59 <fantasai> fantasai: Consider also if I set text-decoration on a <div> with block-level children
17:01:31 <fantasai> fantasai: If you set visibility hidden on one of them, would it disappear the text but not the underlining?
17:03:02 <fantasai> Arron: Older versions of IE don't draw the underline, but they're just mostly broken
17:03:17 <glazou> unicorn underlines
17:03:25 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:03:26 <fantasai> Over time
17:03:29 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
17:03:32 <Zakim> -arronei
17:03:34 <Zakim> -dethbakin
17:03:34 <Zakim> -sylvaing
17:03:35 <Zakim> -Bert
17:03:36 <Zakim> -plinss_
17:03:39 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:03:41 <Zakim> -glazou
17:03:42 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:03:46 <Zakim> -howcome
17:03:51 <Zakim> -David_Baron
17:08:51 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, fantasai, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:08:55 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:08:57 <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, +1.617.650.aaaa, dethbakin, glazou, arronei, plinss_, David_Baron, fantasai, +47.21.65.aabb, sylvaing, SteveZ, howcome, Bert, ChrisL
18:06:57 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
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19:52:14 <tabatkins> fantasai: You interested in staying in the Oslo apartment an extra day with dbaron and tantek?
20:11:48 <fantasai> tabatkins: yes
20:12:15 <tabatkins> k, I'll confirm with the rental dude.
20:21:36 <dbaron> ooh, fantasai is around
20:21:57 <dbaron> (do we know when the other people staying in the Apartment are leaving?)