IRC log of rif on 2010-08-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:44:26 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:44:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:44:34 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
14:44:34 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
14:44:40 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
14:45:00 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 10-Aug-10
14:45:28 [ChrisW]
14:46:54 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:46:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
14:47:02 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:47:56 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
14:48:01 [ChrisW]
zakim, clear agenda
14:48:01 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:48:05 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
14:48:10 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
14:48:15 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Action Review
14:48:21 [ChrisW]
agenda+ RIF in RDF
14:48:27 [ChrisW]
agenda+ RIF/XML
14:48:32 [ChrisW]
agenda+ RIF Primer
14:48:39 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Test Cases
14:48:45 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
14:51:30 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
14:52:21 [mdean]
mdean has joined #rif
14:59:12 [DougL]
DougL has joined #rif
14:59:40 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:59:47 [Zakim]
14:59:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.342.aaaa
15:00:08 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:00:09 [Zakim]
15:00:20 [sandro]
zakim, aaaa is DougL
15:00:20 [Zakim]
+DougL; got it
15:00:25 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:00:25 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:00:31 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has left #rif
15:00:45 [Zakim]
15:01:31 [lmorgens]
lmorgens has joined #rif
15:02:17 [Zakim]
15:02:30 [Zakim]
15:03:32 [Zakim]
15:04:16 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:04:16 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:04:28 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:04:28 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:04:37 [lmorgens]
Chris, should I be scribing this?
15:05:03 [ChrisW]
hang on, leora
15:05:07 [sandro]
Doug: How will we prevent a harmful proliferation of dialects?
15:05:17 [ChrisW]
Scribe: Leora Morgenstern
15:05:21 [ChrisW]
scribenick: lmorgens
15:05:40 [ChrisW]
last meeting minutes:
15:05:41 [sandro]
Sandro: I'm hoping the mailing list ( will help people coordinate and make new dialects be interoperable.
15:05:46 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: approve last minutes
15:05:53 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: approve last minutes
15:06:02 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:06:02 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:06:04 [lmorgens]
No agenda amendments
15:06:08 [sandro]
doug: I think it's importat for the WG to say something about this, pushing people toward the mailing list and toward working together on these dialects.
15:06:56 [lmorgens]
sandro: nothing new in SPARQL; ?? is planning to respond to Jos's email.
15:07:03 [sandro]
15:07:11 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:07:11 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:24 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:08:24 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "RIF in RDF" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:09:00 [lmorgens]
sandro: 2 open issues and 1 ought-to-be-open issue about import.
15:09:43 [lmorgens]
sandro: It appears, from discussion with Dave, that underlying issue of these issues has been resolved; not sure yet.
15:10:50 [lmorgens]
sandro: 2 issues: whether to use RDF type arcs in encoding
15:11:54 [lmorgens]
dave: OWL uses type arcs
15:12:36 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:12:46 [lmorgens]
dave: it's not just the syntax: OWL has the RDF semantics for these as well. (check)
15:13:27 [Zakim]
15:14:29 [lmorgens]
sandro: differences between Dave's preferences and mine may reflect two different user groups with which we deal.
15:16:39 [lmorgens]
leora: Are there any specific examples you can give of how your approaches would differ?
15:16:54 [lmorgens]
leora: I am finding this discussion somewhat abstract; others may also.
15:17:22 [lmorgens]
dave: preference -- use xml syntax, and RDF type arcs to disambiguate
15:17:43 [lmorgens]
chris: confirming that we're at stage where either is open to other's position.
15:17:59 [sandro]
predicate+function instead of just op, univars+exivars instead of something like declare, allTrue+anyTrue instead of formula(s)
15:18:14 [lmorgens]
chris: confiming that argument against type arcs is that they are more verbose.
15:18:32 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: No type arcs in RDF syntax
15:18:39 [lmorgens]
chris: <audibly flips coin> tails, therefore no type arcs.
15:18:40 [sandro]
chris flips a coin, in comes up as proposed.
15:18:41 [sandro]
15:18:42 [ChrisW]
15:18:59 [DaveReynolds]
+0 (preference for type arcs, as per email, but no fundamental objection)
15:19:03 [lmorgens]
leora: -1 million
15:19:06 [DougL]
15:19:20 [Harold]
15:19:22 [mdean]
15:20:14 [DougL]
15:20:21 [lmorgens]
leora: My preference is for type arcs, too.
15:20:26 [DougL]
(FOR the type arcs)
15:20:28 [lmorgens]
leora: Got disconnected; will call back
15:20:34 [mdean]
also prefers rdf:type arcs
15:20:41 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: use type arcs in RDF syntax
15:20:47 [ChrisW]
15:20:48 [DougL]
15:20:48 [DaveReynolds]
15:20:51 [sandro]
+0 it's fine
15:20:51 [mdean]
15:20:54 [Harold]
15:20:54 [lmorgens]
leora: +1
15:20:59 [MichaelKifer]
15:21:07 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: use type arcs in RDF syntax
15:21:24 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: use type arcs in RDF syntax (Closing issue 101)
15:21:54 [sandro]
RRSAgent, pointer?
15:21:54 [RRSAgent]
15:22:18 [sandro]
need plural version of formula and declare.
15:22:56 [sandro]
suggesting: formulas, vars
15:23:07 [DaveReynolds]
seems OK to me
15:23:19 [lmorgens]
leora: no preference
15:23:52 [sandro]
PROPOSED: close issue 102 with names formulas and vars
15:23:58 [ChrisW]
15:24:01 [lmorgens]
leora: Webster's has both formulae and formulas
15:24:03 [sandro]
15:24:06 [lmorgens]
leora: +1
15:24:11 [Harold]
15:24:13 [MichaelKifer]
15:24:14 [mdean]
15:24:16 [DougL]
15:24:23 [DaveReynolds]
0 (I'd normally use formulae but don't care :))
15:24:54 [sandro]
zakim, who is here?
15:24:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, DougL, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Harold, MichaelKifer
15:24:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see MichaelKifer, lmorgens, DaveReynolds, DougL, mdean, Harold, RRSAgent, ChrisW, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
15:25:44 [sandro]
15:25:56 [lmorgens]
leora: sandro, I'm wrong: Webster's gives formu-ligh and formu-lee as the pronunciations for formulae
15:26:06 [sandro]
RESOLVED: close issue-102 with names formulas and vars
15:26:12 [lmorgens]
leora: but it doesn't matter, because we're using formulas
15:27:12 [lmorgens]
sandro: discuss issues of linking RIF, RDF, SPARQL
15:28:00 [lmorgens]
sandro: we need some RDF triple that says go use this RIF rule set. OWL uses a unary import to do this. We need a binary import, because we have to specify a profile.
15:28:14 [sandro]
<docURI> rif:importedWithProfile <profileURI>
15:28:51 [lmorgens]
sandro: still must determine what to call it; Axel calls this useWithProfile
15:29:39 [sandro]
<URI-of-imported-document> rif:importedWithProfile <profileURI>
15:30:27 [lmorgens]
sandro: Does anyone have strong feelings, or can Axel and I just go forward?
15:31:26 [lmorgens]
chris: Is the intent to say: run these RIF rules over RDF document, or merge RDF syntax of RIF rules with graph that I have?
15:31:40 [lmorgens]
sandro: the first. Think of it as an assert.
15:31:48 [lmorgens]
chris: that's not an import.
15:32:04 [DaveReynolds]
+1 to Chris, owl really is an import it is an inclusion, this is a processing directive
15:32:06 [lmorgens]
sandro: Still, thwat's what OWL calls it.
15:32:23 [lmorgens]
sandro: would you be happier if we used Assert?
15:32:47 [lmorgens]
Mike(?): Maybe somehting like plug-in
15:32:53 [sandro]
<URI-of-ruleset-to-assert> rif:assertWithProfile <profileURI>
15:33:02 [sandro]
15:33:24 [sandro]
<URI-of-ruleset-to-assert> rif:usedWithProfile <profileURI>
15:33:36 [sandro]
Chris: I like "used"
15:34:04 [lmorgens]
Chris: Anyone read Axel's proposal, besides Sandro? Feedback?
15:34:13 [sandro]
15:35:41 [lmorgens]
chris: Sandro, sounds like you are saying: you want the RIF rules to run over graph, but don't necessarily want the triples.
15:36:48 [lmorgens]
sandro: I'll take guidance from this call (regarding "used"), will write text with Axel, and get back to you.
15:38:46 [lmorgens]
sandro: <discussion of feasibility of doing reverse translation>
15:43:21 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:43:21 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "RIF/XML" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:43:26 [sandro]
action: sandro add text to RIF-in-RDF about documents being of type RIFCoreDocument, etc.
15:43:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1037 - Add text to RIF-in-RDF about documents being of type RIFCoreDocument, etc. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-08-17].
15:43:38 [ChrisW]
zakim, close item 5
15:43:38 [Zakim]
agendum 5, RIF/XML, closed
15:43:39 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:43:41 [Zakim]
6. RIF Primer [from ChrisW]
15:43:44 [lmorgens]
chris: Christian and Gary needed to discuss RIF/XML doc
15:43:46 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:43:46 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "RIF Primer" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:45:27 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:45:27 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:46:00 [lmorgens]
<leora and chris to finish up their parts of the Primer this afternoon; leora to send email to reviewers (Sandro and Gary)>
15:46:26 [Zakim]
15:46:27 [lmorgens]
chris: Discussion of Test Cases.
15:46:56 [lmorgens]
chris: do we time-stamp the test case repository? leave it open in case anyone wants to add new test cases?
15:47:04 [lmorgens]
sandro: would like to keep it open
15:47:28 [lmorgens]
sandro: but that requires someone to maintain it.
15:48:07 [lmorgens]
sandro: could label pages/test cases as WG approved, community approved (e.g., 3 people say in email they've looked at it and approved it)
15:48:27 [lmorgens]
sandro: If RIF is somewhat successful, people should be willling to do that.
15:49:20 [lmorgens]
sandro: Test Case doc should be published as note instead of working draft.
15:50:27 [lmorgens]
chris: we should go through remaining proposed test cases, see if they should be approved.
15:50:34 [lmorgens]
chris: mostly PRD, one RDF combination.
15:51:08 [ChrisW]
15:51:24 [lmorgens]
chris: <proposes going through some non-PRD cases now>
15:52:30 [lmorgens]
leora: I'm not clear: why shouldn't it import?
15:52:33 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: accept RDF_Combination_Invalid_Constant_1
15:52:54 [lmorgens]
leora: ah, okay, I see that now.
15:53:05 [sandro]
If you wanted to say ex:a ex:p "">"^^rif:iri you would write it in turtle as ex:a ex:p <>
15:53:14 [sandro]
15:53:15 [ChrisW]
15:53:17 [DaveReynolds]
15:53:20 [mdean]
15:53:20 [lmorgens]
leora: +1
15:53:31 [DougL]
15:53:33 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: accept RDF_Combination_Invalid_Constant_1
15:56:26 [ChrisW]
If ui, 1 ≤ i ≤ n, refers to an RDF graph that uses a typed literal of the form "s"^^rif:iri or "s"^^rdf:PlainLiteral, the document must be rejected.
15:57:05 [sandro]
PROPOSED: accept RDF_Combination_Invalid_Constant_2
15:57:07 [sandro]
15:57:09 [DaveReynolds]
15:57:16 [ChrisW]
15:57:19 [mdean]
15:57:21 [lmorgens]
15:57:39 [DougL]
15:57:43 [ChrisW]
action: Chris to move approved test cases to approved status
15:57:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1038 - Move approved test cases to approved status [on Christopher Welty - due 2010-08-17].
15:57:59 [sandro]
RESOLVED: accept RDF_Combination_Invalid_Constant_2
15:58:00 [ChrisW]
15:59:59 [sandro]
Note the TestCase template seems to be broken for second imported documents.
16:00:57 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: approve RDF_Combination_Invalid_Profiles_1
16:01:00 [DaveReynolds]
16:01:03 [ChrisW]
16:01:07 [sandro]
16:01:14 [mdean]
16:01:21 [lmorgens]
leora: +1
16:01:32 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: approve RDF_Combination_Invalid_Profiles_1
16:01:52 [ChrisW]
16:06:43 [sandro]
Dave: It'd be nice to have a working implementation run this
16:06:46 [sandro]
sandro; Indeed.
16:07:01 [Zakim]
16:07:12 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: approve UCR_4.1a
16:07:15 [ChrisW]
16:07:16 [DaveReynolds]
16:07:18 [lmorgens]
<leora> +1
16:07:20 [sandro]
16:07:21 [mdean]
16:07:21 [DougL]
16:07:37 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: approve UCR_4.1a
16:07:49 [ChrisW]
16:14:35 [lmorgens]
dave: ontology could be more compact; there are some redundancies in the declarations.
16:15:23 [lmorgens]
sandro: We should approve it anyway. Some noise adds it some flavor.
16:17:21 [sandro]
sandro: But I'm fine with trimming it.
16:17:45 [ChrisW]
action: leora to send stella recommendations to improve UCR-4.7a test case
16:17:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1039 - Send stella recommendations to improve UCR-4.7a test case [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2010-08-17].
16:18:17 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:18:17 [Zakim]
I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, ChrisW
16:18:20 [lmorgens]
chris: action should include renaming the test case, isnce it no longer points back to ucr.
16:18:38 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:18:38 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, +1.512.342.aaaa, DougL, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Harold, MichaelKifer
16:18:40 [Zakim]
16:19:08 [DougL]
(I am the 512 one I think)
16:19:19 [ChrisW]
Regrets: Christian
16:19:35 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:19:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
16:19:44 [DougL]
16:20:04 [Zakim]
16:20:06 [Zakim]
16:21:31 [Zakim]
16:21:33 [Zakim]
16:58:53 [Zakim]
16:58:54 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:58:56 [Zakim]
Attendees were Sandro, +1.512.342.aaaa, DougL, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Harold, MichaelKifer