14:44:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:44:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/10-rif-irc
14:44:34 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:44:34 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
14:44:40 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:45:00 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 10-Aug-10
14:45:28 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Aug/0012.html
14:46:54 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:46:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/10-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:47:02 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
14:47:56 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:48:01 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
14:48:01 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:48:05 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:48:10 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:48:15 <ChrisW> agenda+ Action Review
14:48:21 <ChrisW> agenda+ RIF in RDF
14:48:27 <ChrisW> agenda+ RIF/XML
14:48:32 <ChrisW> agenda+ RIF Primer
14:48:39 <ChrisW> agenda+ Test Cases
14:48:45 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:51:30 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
14:52:21 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
14:59:12 <DougL> DougL has joined #rif
14:59:40 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:59:47 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:59:53 <Zakim> + +1.512.342.aaaa
15:00:08 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:00:09 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:00:20 <sandro> zakim, aaaa is DougL
15:00:20 <Zakim> +DougL; got it
15:00:25 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:00:25 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:00:31 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has left #rif
15:00:45 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:01:31 <lmorgens> lmorgens has joined #rif
15:02:17 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:02:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:03:32 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:04:16 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:04:16 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:04:28 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:04:28 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:04:37 <lmorgens> Chris, should I be scribing this?
15:05:03 <ChrisW> hang on, leora
15:05:07 <sandro> Doug: How will we prevent a harmful proliferation of dialects?
15:05:17 <ChrisW> Scribe: Leora Morgenstern
15:05:21 <ChrisW> scribenick: lmorgens 
15:05:40 <ChrisW> last meeting minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jul/att-0047/RIF_telecon_27_July_2010.htm
15:05:41 <sandro> Sandro: I'm hoping the mailing list  (public-rif-dev@w3.org) will help people coordinate and make new dialects be interoperable.
15:05:46 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: approve last minutes
15:05:53 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: approve last minutes
15:06:02 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:06:02 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:06:04 <lmorgens> No agenda amendments
15:06:08 <sandro> doug: I think it's importat for the WG to say something about this, pushing people toward the mailing list and toward working together on these dialects.
15:06:56 <lmorgens> sandro: nothing new in SPARQL;  ?? is planning to respond to Jos's email.
15:07:03 <sandro> s/??/Chime/
15:07:11 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:07:11 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:24 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:08:24 <Zakim> agendum 4. "RIF in RDF" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:09:00 <lmorgens> sandro:  2 open issues and 1 ought-to-be-open issue about import.
15:09:43 <lmorgens> sandro: It appears, from discussion with Dave, that underlying issue of these issues has been resolved; not sure yet.
15:10:50 <lmorgens> sandro: 2 issues: whether to use RDF type arcs in encoding
15:11:54 <lmorgens> dave: OWL uses type arcs
15:12:36 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:12:46 <lmorgens> dave: it's not just the syntax: OWL has the RDF semantics for these as well. (check)
15:13:27 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer
15:14:29 <lmorgens> sandro: differences between Dave's preferences and mine may reflect two different user groups with which we deal.
15:16:39 <lmorgens> leora: Are there any specific examples you can give of how your approaches would differ?
15:16:54 <lmorgens> leora: I am finding this discussion somewhat abstract; others may also.
15:17:22 <lmorgens> dave: preference -- use xml syntax, and RDF type arcs to disambiguate
15:17:43 <lmorgens> chris: confirming that we're at stage where either is open to other's position.
15:17:59 <sandro> predicate+function instead of just op,  univars+exivars instead of something like declare, allTrue+anyTrue instead of formula(s)
15:18:14 <lmorgens> chris: confiming that argument against type arcs is that they are more verbose.
15:18:32 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: No type arcs in RDF syntax
15:18:39 <lmorgens> chris: <audibly flips coin> tails, therefore no type arcs.
15:18:40 <sandro> chris flips a coin, in comes up as proposed.
15:18:41 <sandro> +1
15:18:42 <ChrisW> +0
15:18:59 <DaveReynolds> +0 (preference for type arcs, as per email, but no fundamental objection)
15:19:03 <lmorgens> leora: -1 million
15:19:06 <DougL> +0
15:19:20 <Harold> 0
15:19:22 <mdean> +0
15:20:14 <DougL> +0.231
15:20:21 <lmorgens> leora: My preference is for type arcs, too.
15:20:26 <DougL> (FOR the type arcs)
15:20:28 <lmorgens> leora: Got disconnected; will call back
15:20:34 <mdean> also prefers rdf:type arcs
15:20:41 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: use type arcs in RDF syntax
15:20:47 <ChrisW> 0
15:20:48 <DougL> +1
15:20:48 <DaveReynolds> +1
15:20:51 <sandro> +0 it's fine
15:20:51 <mdean> +1
15:20:54 <Harold> 0
15:20:54 <lmorgens> leora: +1
15:20:59 <MichaelKifer> 0
15:21:07 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: use type arcs in RDF syntax
15:21:24 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: use type arcs in RDF syntax (Closing issue 101)
15:21:54 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
15:21:54 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/08/10-rif-irc#T15-21-54
15:22:18 <sandro> need plural version of formula and declare.
15:22:56 <sandro> suggesting: formulas, vars
15:23:07 <DaveReynolds> seems OK to me
15:23:19 <lmorgens> leora: no preference
15:23:52 <sandro> PROPOSED: close issue 102 with names formulas and vars
15:23:58 <ChrisW> +1
15:24:01 <lmorgens> leora: Webster's has both formulae and formulas
15:24:03 <sandro> +1
15:24:06 <lmorgens> leora: +1
15:24:11 <Harold> 0
15:24:13 <MichaelKifer> +1
15:24:14 <mdean> +1
15:24:16 <DougL> +0
15:24:23 <DaveReynolds> 0 (I'd normally use formulae but don't care :))
15:24:54 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
15:24:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, DougL, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Harold, MichaelKifer
15:24:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see MichaelKifer, lmorgens, DaveReynolds, DougL, mdean, Harold, RRSAgent, ChrisW, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
15:25:44 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_In_RDF#Importing_RIF_into_RDF
15:25:56 <lmorgens> leora: sandro, I'm wrong: Webster's gives formu-ligh and formu-lee as the pronunciations for formulae
15:26:06 <sandro> RESOLVED:  close issue-102 with names formulas and vars
15:26:12 <lmorgens> leora: but it doesn't matter, because we're using formulas
15:27:12 <lmorgens> sandro: discuss issues of linking RIF, RDF, SPARQL
15:28:00 <lmorgens> sandro: we need some RDF triple that says go use this RIF rule set. OWL uses a unary import to do this. We need a binary import, because we have to specify a profile.
15:28:14 <sandro>   <docURI> rif:importedWithProfile <profileURI>
15:28:51 <lmorgens> sandro: still must determine what to call it; Axel calls this useWithProfile
15:29:39 <sandro>   <URI-of-imported-document> rif:importedWithProfile <profileURI>
15:30:27 <lmorgens> sandro: Does anyone have strong feelings, or can Axel and I just go forward?
15:31:26 <lmorgens> chris: Is the intent to say: run these RIF rules over RDF document, or merge RDF syntax of RIF rules with graph that I have?
15:31:40 <lmorgens> sandro: the first. Think of it as an assert.
15:31:48 <lmorgens> chris: that's not an import.
15:32:04 <DaveReynolds> +1 to Chris, owl really is an import it is an inclusion, this is a processing directive
15:32:06 <lmorgens> sandro: Still, thwat's what OWL calls it.
15:32:23 <lmorgens> sandro: would you be happier if we used Assert?
15:32:47 <lmorgens> Mike(?): Maybe somehting like plug-in
15:32:53 <sandro>    <URI-of-ruleset-to-assert> rif:assertWithProfile <profileURI>
15:33:02 <sandro> s/Mike(?)/Doug/
15:33:24 <sandro>    <URI-of-ruleset-to-assert> rif:usedWithProfile <profileURI>
15:33:36 <sandro> Chris: I like "used"
15:34:04 <lmorgens> Chris: Anyone read Axel's proposal, besides Sandro? Feedback? 
15:34:13 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jan/0015.html
15:35:41 <lmorgens> chris: Sandro, sounds like you are saying: you want the RIF rules to run over graph, but don't necessarily want the triples.
15:36:48 <lmorgens> sandro: I'll take guidance from this call (regarding "used"), will write text with Axel, and get back to you.
15:38:46 <lmorgens> sandro: <discussion of feasibility of doing reverse translation>
15:43:21 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:43:21 <Zakim> agendum 5. "RIF/XML" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:43:26 <sandro> action: sandro add text to RIF-in-RDF about documents being of type RIFCoreDocument, etc.
15:43:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1037 - Add text to RIF-in-RDF about documents being of type RIFCoreDocument, etc. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-08-17].
15:43:38 <ChrisW> zakim, close item 5
15:43:38 <Zakim> agendum 5, RIF/XML, closed
15:43:39 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:43:41 <Zakim> 6. RIF Primer [from ChrisW]
15:43:44 <lmorgens> chris: Christian and Gary needed to discuss RIF/XML doc
15:43:46 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:43:46 <Zakim> agendum 6. "RIF Primer" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:45:27 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:45:27 <Zakim> agendum 8. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:46:00 <lmorgens> <leora and chris to finish up their parts of the Primer this afternoon;  leora to send email to reviewers (Sandro and Gary)>
15:46:26 <Zakim> -Harold
15:46:27 <lmorgens> chris: Discussion of Test Cases. 
15:46:56 <lmorgens> chris: do we time-stamp the test case repository? leave it open in case anyone wants to add new test cases?
15:47:04 <lmorgens> sandro: would like to keep it open
15:47:28 <lmorgens> sandro: but that requires someone to maintain it.
15:48:07 <lmorgens> sandro: could label pages/test cases as WG approved, community approved (e.g., 3 people say in email they've looked at it and approved it)
15:48:27 <lmorgens> sandro: If RIF is somewhat successful, people should be willling to do that.
15:49:20 <lmorgens> sandro: Test Case doc should be published as note instead of working draft.
15:50:27 <lmorgens> chris: we should go through remaining proposed test cases, see if they should be approved. 
15:50:34 <lmorgens> chris: mostly PRD, one RDF combination.
15:51:08 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Invalid_Constant_1
15:51:24 <lmorgens> chris: <proposes going through some non-PRD cases now>
15:52:30 <lmorgens> leora: I'm not clear: why shouldn't it import?
15:52:33 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept RDF_Combination_Invalid_Constant_1
15:52:54 <lmorgens> leora: ah, okay, I see that now.
15:53:05 <sandro> If you wanted to say   ex:a ex:p "http://example.org/#b"^^rif:iri      you would write it in turtle as ex:a ex:p <http://example.org/#b>
15:53:14 <sandro> +1
15:53:15 <ChrisW> +1
15:53:17 <DaveReynolds> +1
15:53:20 <mdean> +1
15:53:20 <lmorgens> leora: +1
15:53:31 <DougL> +1
15:53:33 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept RDF_Combination_Invalid_Constant_1
15:56:26 <ChrisW> If ui, 1 ≤ i ≤ n, refers to an RDF graph that uses a typed literal of the form "s"^^rif:iri or "s"^^rdf:PlainLiteral, the document must be rejected.
15:57:05 <sandro> PROPOSED: accept RDF_Combination_Invalid_Constant_2
15:57:07 <sandro> +1
15:57:09 <DaveReynolds> +1
15:57:16 <ChrisW> +1
15:57:19 <mdean> +1
15:57:21 <lmorgens> leora:+1
15:57:39 <DougL> =1
15:57:43 <ChrisW> action: Chris to move approved test cases to approved status
15:57:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1038 - Move approved test cases to approved status [on Christopher Welty - due 2010-08-17].
15:57:59 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept RDF_Combination_Invalid_Constant_2
15:58:00 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Invalid_Profiles_1
15:59:59 <sandro> Note the TestCase template seems to be broken for second imported documents.
16:00:57 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: approve RDF_Combination_Invalid_Profiles_1
16:01:00 <DaveReynolds> +1
16:01:03 <ChrisW> +1
16:01:07 <sandro> +1
16:01:14 <mdean> +1
16:01:21 <lmorgens> leora: +1
16:01:32 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: approve RDF_Combination_Invalid_Profiles_1
16:01:52 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR_4.1a
16:06:43 <sandro> Dave: It'd be nice to have a working implementation run this
16:06:46 <sandro> sandro; Indeed.
16:07:01 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:07:12 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: approve UCR_4.1a
16:07:15 <ChrisW> +1
16:07:16 <DaveReynolds> +1
16:07:18 <lmorgens> <leora> +1
16:07:20 <sandro> +1
16:07:21 <mdean> +1
16:07:21 <DougL> +1
16:07:37 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: approve UCR_4.1a
16:07:49 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR_4.7a
16:14:35 <lmorgens> dave: ontology could be more compact; there are some redundancies in the declarations.
16:15:23 <lmorgens> sandro:  We should approve it anyway. Some noise adds it some flavor.
16:17:21 <sandro> sandro: But I'm fine with trimming it.
16:17:45 <ChrisW> action: leora to send stella recommendations to improve UCR-4.7a test case
16:17:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1039 - Send stella recommendations to improve UCR-4.7a test case [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2010-08-17].
16:18:17 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:18:17 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, ChrisW
16:18:20 <lmorgens> chris: action should include renaming the test case, isnce it no longer points back to ucr.
16:18:38 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:18:38 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, +1.512.342.aaaa, DougL, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Harold, MichaelKifer
16:18:40 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:19:08 <DougL> (I am the 512 one I think)
16:19:19 <ChrisW> Regrets: Christian
16:19:35 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:19:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/10-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:19:44 <DougL> bye
16:20:04 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
16:20:06 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:21:31 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:21:33 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:58:53 <Zakim> -DougL
16:58:54 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:58:56 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, +1.512.342.aaaa, DougL, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Harold, MichaelKifer