IRC log of rif on 2010-08-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:44:26 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rif

14:44:26 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/10-rif-irc

14:44:34 [ChrisW]

zakim, this will be rif

14:44:34 [Zakim]

ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes

14:44:40 [ChrisW]

Chair: Chris Welty

14:45:00 [ChrisW]

Meeting: RIF Telecon 10-Aug-10

14:45:28 [ChrisW]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Aug/0012.html

14:46:54 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:46:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/10-rif-minutes.html ChrisW

14:47:02 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, make logs public

14:47:56 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Admin

14:48:01 [ChrisW]

zakim, clear agenda

14:48:01 [Zakim]

agenda cleared

14:48:05 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Admin

14:48:10 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Liason

14:48:15 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Action Review

14:48:21 [ChrisW]

agenda+ RIF in RDF

14:48:27 [ChrisW]

agenda+ RIF/XML

14:48:32 [ChrisW]

agenda+ RIF Primer

14:48:39 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Test Cases

14:48:45 [ChrisW]

agenda+ AOB

14:51:30 [Harold]

Harold has joined #rif

14:52:21 [mdean]

mdean has joined #rif

14:59:12 [DougL]

DougL has joined #rif

14:59:40 [Zakim]

SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started

14:59:47 [Zakim]

+Sandro

14:59:53 [Zakim]

+ +1.512.342.aaaa

15:00:08 [DaveReynolds]

DaveReynolds has joined #rif

15:00:09 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

15:00:20 [sandro]

zakim, aaaa is DougL

15:00:20 [Zakim]

+DougL; got it

15:00:25 [ChrisW]

zakim, ibm is temporarily me

15:00:25 [Zakim]

+ChrisW; got it

15:00:31 [AxelPolleres]

AxelPolleres has left #rif

15:00:45 [Zakim]

+Mike_Dean

15:01:31 [lmorgens]

lmorgens has joined #rif

15:02:17 [Zakim]

+Leora_Morgenstern

15:02:30 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:03:32 [Zakim]

+[NRCC]

15:04:16 [Harold]

zakim, [NRCC] is me

15:04:16 [Zakim]

+Harold; got it

15:04:28 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:04:28 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:04:37 [lmorgens]

Chris, should I be scribing this?

15:05:03 [ChrisW]

hang on, leora

15:05:07 [sandro]

Doug: How will we prevent a harmful proliferation of dialects?

15:05:17 [ChrisW]

Scribe: Leora Morgenstern

15:05:21 [ChrisW]

scribenick: lmorgens

15:05:40 [ChrisW]

last meeting minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jul/att-0047/RIF_telecon_27_July_2010.htm

15:05:41 [sandro]

Sandro: I'm hoping the mailing list (public-rif-dev@w3.org) will help people coordinate and make new dialects be interoperable.

15:05:46 [ChrisW]

PROPOSED: approve last minutes

15:05:53 [ChrisW]

RESOLVED: approve last minutes

15:06:02 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:06:02 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:06:04 [lmorgens]

No agenda amendments

15:06:08 [sandro]

doug: I think it's importat for the WG to say something about this, pushing people toward the mailing list and toward working together on these dialects.

15:06:56 [lmorgens]

sandro: nothing new in SPARQL; ?? is planning to respond to Jos's email.

15:07:03 [sandro]

s/??/Chime/

15:07:11 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:07:11 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:08:24 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:08:24 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "RIF in RDF" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:09:00 [lmorgens]

sandro: 2 open issues and 1 ought-to-be-open issue about import.

15:09:43 [lmorgens]

sandro: It appears, from discussion with Dave, that underlying issue of these issues has been resolved; not sure yet.

15:10:50 [lmorgens]

sandro: 2 issues: whether to use RDF type arcs in encoding

15:11:54 [lmorgens]

dave: OWL uses type arcs

15:12:36 [MichaelKifer]

MichaelKifer has joined #rif

15:12:46 [lmorgens]

dave: it's not just the syntax: OWL has the RDF semantics for these as well. (check)

15:13:27 [Zakim]

+MichaelKifer

15:14:29 [lmorgens]

sandro: differences between Dave's preferences and mine may reflect two different user groups with which we deal.

15:16:39 [lmorgens]

leora: Are there any specific examples you can give of how your approaches would differ?

15:16:54 [lmorgens]

leora: I am finding this discussion somewhat abstract; others may also.

15:17:22 [lmorgens]

dave: preference -- use xml syntax, and RDF type arcs to disambiguate

15:17:43 [lmorgens]

chris: confirming that we're at stage where either is open to other's position.

15:17:59 [sandro]

predicate+function instead of just op, univars+exivars instead of something like declare, allTrue+anyTrue instead of formula(s)

15:18:14 [lmorgens]

chris: confiming that argument against type arcs is that they are more verbose.

15:18:32 [ChrisW]

PROPOSED: No type arcs in RDF syntax

15:18:39 [lmorgens]

chris: <audibly flips coin> tails, therefore no type arcs.

15:18:40 [sandro]

chris flips a coin, in comes up as proposed.

15:18:41 [sandro]

+1

15:18:42 [ChrisW]

+0

15:18:59 [DaveReynolds]

+0 (preference for type arcs, as per email, but no fundamental objection)

15:19:03 [lmorgens]

leora: -1 million

15:19:06 [DougL]

+0

15:19:20 [Harold]

0

15:19:22 [mdean]

+0

15:20:14 [DougL]

+0.231

15:20:21 [lmorgens]

leora: My preference is for type arcs, too.

15:20:26 [DougL]

(FOR the type arcs)

15:20:28 [lmorgens]

leora: Got disconnected; will call back

15:20:34 [mdean]

also prefers rdf:type arcs

15:20:41 [ChrisW]

PROPOSED: use type arcs in RDF syntax

15:20:47 [ChrisW]

0

15:20:48 [DougL]

+1

15:20:48 [DaveReynolds]

+1

15:20:51 [sandro]

+0 it's fine

15:20:51 [mdean]

+1

15:20:54 [Harold]

0

15:20:54 [lmorgens]

leora: +1

15:20:59 [MichaelKifer]

0

15:21:07 [ChrisW]

RESOLVED: use type arcs in RDF syntax

15:21:24 [ChrisW]

RESOLVED: use type arcs in RDF syntax (Closing issue 101)

15:21:54 [sandro]

RRSAgent, pointer?

15:21:54 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2010/08/10-rif-irc#T15-21-54

15:22:18 [sandro]

need plural version of formula and declare.

15:22:56 [sandro]

suggesting: formulas, vars

15:23:07 [DaveReynolds]

seems OK to me

15:23:19 [lmorgens]

leora: no preference

15:23:52 [sandro]

PROPOSED: close issue 102 with names formulas and vars

15:23:58 [ChrisW]

+1

15:24:01 [lmorgens]

leora: Webster's has both formulae and formulas

15:24:03 [sandro]

+1

15:24:06 [lmorgens]

leora: +1

15:24:11 [Harold]

0

15:24:13 [MichaelKifer]

+1

15:24:14 [mdean]

+1

15:24:16 [DougL]

+0

15:24:23 [DaveReynolds]

0 (I'd normally use formulae but don't care :))

15:24:54 [sandro]

zakim, who is here?

15:24:54 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Sandro, DougL, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Harold, MichaelKifer

15:24:56 [Zakim]

On IRC I see MichaelKifer, lmorgens, DaveReynolds, DougL, mdean, Harold, RRSAgent, ChrisW, Zakim, sandro, trackbot

15:25:44 [sandro]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_In_RDF#Importing_RIF_into_RDF

15:25:56 [lmorgens]

leora: sandro, I'm wrong: Webster's gives formu-ligh and formu-lee as the pronunciations for formulae

15:26:06 [sandro]

RESOLVED: close issue-102 with names formulas and vars

15:26:12 [lmorgens]

leora: but it doesn't matter, because we're using formulas

15:27:12 [lmorgens]

sandro: discuss issues of linking RIF, RDF, SPARQL

15:28:00 [lmorgens]

sandro: we need some RDF triple that says go use this RIF rule set. OWL uses a unary import to do this. We need a binary import, because we have to specify a profile.

15:28:14 [sandro]

<docURI> rif:importedWithProfile <profileURI>

15:28:51 [lmorgens]

sandro: still must determine what to call it; Axel calls this useWithProfile

15:29:39 [sandro]

<URI-of-imported-document> rif:importedWithProfile <profileURI>

15:30:27 [lmorgens]

sandro: Does anyone have strong feelings, or can Axel and I just go forward?

15:31:26 [lmorgens]

chris: Is the intent to say: run these RIF rules over RDF document, or merge RDF syntax of RIF rules with graph that I have?

15:31:40 [lmorgens]

sandro: the first. Think of it as an assert.

15:31:48 [lmorgens]

chris: that's not an import.

15:32:04 [DaveReynolds]

+1 to Chris, owl really is an import it is an inclusion, this is a processing directive

15:32:06 [lmorgens]

sandro: Still, thwat's what OWL calls it.

15:32:23 [lmorgens]

sandro: would you be happier if we used Assert?

15:32:47 [lmorgens]

Mike(?): Maybe somehting like plug-in

15:32:53 [sandro]

<URI-of-ruleset-to-assert> rif:assertWithProfile <profileURI>

15:33:02 [sandro]

s/Mike(?)/Doug/

15:33:24 [sandro]

<URI-of-ruleset-to-assert> rif:usedWithProfile <profileURI>

15:33:36 [sandro]

Chris: I like "used"

15:34:04 [lmorgens]

Chris: Anyone read Axel's proposal, besides Sandro? Feedback?

15:34:13 [sandro]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jan/0015.html

15:35:41 [lmorgens]

chris: Sandro, sounds like you are saying: you want the RIF rules to run over graph, but don't necessarily want the triples.

15:36:48 [lmorgens]

sandro: I'll take guidance from this call (regarding "used"), will write text with Axel, and get back to you.

15:38:46 [lmorgens]

sandro: <discussion of feasibility of doing reverse translation>

15:43:21 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:43:21 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "RIF/XML" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:43:26 [sandro]

action: sandro add text to RIF-in-RDF about documents being of type RIFCoreDocument, etc.

15:43:26 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1037 - Add text to RIF-in-RDF about documents being of type RIFCoreDocument, etc. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-08-17].

15:43:38 [ChrisW]

zakim, close item 5

15:43:38 [Zakim]

agendum 5, RIF/XML, closed

15:43:39 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:43:41 [Zakim]

6. RIF Primer [from ChrisW]

15:43:44 [lmorgens]

chris: Christian and Gary needed to discuss RIF/XML doc

15:43:46 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:43:46 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "RIF Primer" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:45:27 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:45:27 [Zakim]

agendum 8. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:46:00 [lmorgens]

<leora and chris to finish up their parts of the Primer this afternoon; leora to send email to reviewers (Sandro and Gary)>

15:46:26 [Zakim]

-Harold

15:46:27 [lmorgens]

chris: Discussion of Test Cases.

15:46:56 [lmorgens]

chris: do we time-stamp the test case repository? leave it open in case anyone wants to add new test cases?

15:47:04 [lmorgens]

sandro: would like to keep it open

15:47:28 [lmorgens]

sandro: but that requires someone to maintain it.

15:48:07 [lmorgens]

sandro: could label pages/test cases as WG approved, community approved (e.g., 3 people say in email they've looked at it and approved it)

15:48:27 [lmorgens]

sandro: If RIF is somewhat successful, people should be willling to do that.

15:49:20 [lmorgens]

sandro: Test Case doc should be published as note instead of working draft.

15:50:27 [lmorgens]

chris: we should go through remaining proposed test cases, see if they should be approved.

15:50:34 [lmorgens]

chris: mostly PRD, one RDF combination.

15:51:08 [ChrisW]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Invalid_Constant_1

15:51:24 [lmorgens]

chris: <proposes going through some non-PRD cases now>

15:52:30 [lmorgens]

leora: I'm not clear: why shouldn't it import?

15:52:33 [ChrisW]

PROPOSED: accept RDF_Combination_Invalid_Constant_1

15:52:54 [lmorgens]

leora: ah, okay, I see that now.

15:53:05 [sandro]

If you wanted to say ex:a ex:p "http://example.org/#b">http://example.org/#b"^^rif:iri you would write it in turtle as ex:a ex:p <http://example.org/#b>

15:53:14 [sandro]

+1

15:53:15 [ChrisW]

+1

15:53:17 [DaveReynolds]

+1

15:53:20 [mdean]

+1

15:53:20 [lmorgens]

leora: +1

15:53:31 [DougL]

+1

15:53:33 [ChrisW]

RESOLVED: accept RDF_Combination_Invalid_Constant_1

15:56:26 [ChrisW]

If ui, 1 ≤ i ≤ n, refers to an RDF graph that uses a typed literal of the form "s"^^rif:iri or "s"^^rdf:PlainLiteral, the document must be rejected.

15:57:05 [sandro]

PROPOSED: accept RDF_Combination_Invalid_Constant_2

15:57:07 [sandro]

+1

15:57:09 [DaveReynolds]

+1

15:57:16 [ChrisW]

+1

15:57:19 [mdean]

+1

15:57:21 [lmorgens]

leora:+1

15:57:39 [DougL]

=1

15:57:43 [ChrisW]

action: Chris to move approved test cases to approved status

15:57:43 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1038 - Move approved test cases to approved status [on Christopher Welty - due 2010-08-17].

15:57:59 [sandro]

RESOLVED: accept RDF_Combination_Invalid_Constant_2

15:58:00 [ChrisW]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Invalid_Profiles_1

15:59:59 [sandro]

Note the TestCase template seems to be broken for second imported documents.

16:00:57 [ChrisW]

PROPOSED: approve RDF_Combination_Invalid_Profiles_1

16:01:00 [DaveReynolds]

+1

16:01:03 [ChrisW]

+1

16:01:07 [sandro]

+1

16:01:14 [mdean]

+1

16:01:21 [lmorgens]

leora: +1

16:01:32 [ChrisW]

RESOLVED: approve RDF_Combination_Invalid_Profiles_1

16:01:52 [ChrisW]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR_4.1a

16:06:43 [sandro]

Dave: It'd be nice to have a working implementation run this

16:06:46 [sandro]

sandro; Indeed.

16:07:01 [Zakim]

-MichaelKifer

16:07:12 [ChrisW]

PROPOSED: approve UCR_4.1a

16:07:15 [ChrisW]

+1

16:07:16 [DaveReynolds]

+1

16:07:18 [lmorgens]

<leora> +1

16:07:20 [sandro]

+1

16:07:21 [mdean]

+1

16:07:21 [DougL]

+1

16:07:37 [ChrisW]

RESOLVED: approve UCR_4.1a

16:07:49 [ChrisW]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR_4.7a

16:14:35 [lmorgens]

dave: ontology could be more compact; there are some redundancies in the declarations.

16:15:23 [lmorgens]

sandro: We should approve it anyway. Some noise adds it some flavor.

16:17:21 [sandro]

sandro: But I'm fine with trimming it.

16:17:45 [ChrisW]

action: leora to send stella recommendations to improve UCR-4.7a test case

16:17:45 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1039 - Send stella recommendations to improve UCR-4.7a test case [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2010-08-17].

16:18:17 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

16:18:17 [Zakim]

I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, ChrisW

16:18:20 [lmorgens]

chris: action should include renaming the test case, isnce it no longer points back to ucr.

16:18:38 [ChrisW]

zakim, list attendees

16:18:38 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, +1.512.342.aaaa, DougL, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Harold, MichaelKifer

16:18:40 [Zakim]

-DaveReynolds

16:19:08 [DougL]

(I am the 512 one I think)

16:19:19 [ChrisW]

Regrets: Christian

16:19:35 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:19:35 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/10-rif-minutes.html ChrisW

16:19:44 [DougL]

bye

16:20:04 [Zakim]

-Leora_Morgenstern

16:20:06 [Zakim]

-Mike_Dean

16:21:31 [Zakim]

-ChrisW

16:21:33 [Zakim]

-Sandro

16:58:53 [Zakim]

-DougL

16:58:54 [Zakim]

SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended

16:58:56 [Zakim]

Attendees were Sandro, +1.512.342.aaaa, DougL, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Harold, MichaelKifer