15:22:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:22:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/04-CSS-irc
15:22:11 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:22:11 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 38 minutes
15:22:20 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:22:34 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
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15:55:48 <glazou> Zakim, code ?
15:55:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), glazou
15:55:56 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:03 <Zakim> +glazou
15:56:21 <Zakim> +dsinger
15:57:03 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #css
15:57:13 <glazou> Zakim, mute dsinger 
15:57:13 <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
15:57:17 <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger
15:57:17 <Zakim> dsinger was already muted, dsinger_
15:57:37 <glazou> np, the noise was too loud
15:57:43 <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
15:57:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, dsinger (muted)
15:57:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger_, arronei, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, Curt`, bradk, nimbupani, miketaylr, shepazu, dsinger, TabAtkins_, karl, fantasai, krijnh, plinss_, lhnz, Bert,
15:57:49 <Zakim> ... Peter`, tabatkins, trackbot, plinss, Hixie, jgraham
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15:58:47 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:58:52 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
16:00:17 <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
16:00:17 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:00:34 <Zakim> +plinss_
16:01:47 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:02:24 <Zakim> +Bert
16:02:51 <Zakim> +sylvaing
16:03:31 <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aaaa
16:03:47 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is bradk 
16:03:47 <Zakim> +bradk; got it
16:03:49 <Zakim> +smfr
16:04:00 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:04:09 <Zakim> +??P16
16:04:10 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:04:41 <glazou> Zakim, P16 is fantasai 
16:04:41 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'P16'
16:04:49 <glazou> Zakim, ?P16 is fantasai 
16:04:49 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '?P16'
16:05:01 <glazou> Zakim, you're annoying
16:05:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'you're annoying', glazou
16:06:01 <dsinger_> Zakim, p16 is fantasai
16:06:01 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, I do not recognize a party named 'p16'
16:06:20 <dsinger_> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:06:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, dsinger (muted), arronei, plinss_, [Microsoft], Bert, sylvaing, bradk, smfr, ??P16, SteveZ
16:06:48 <dsinger_> Zakim, ??p16 is fantasai
16:06:48 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:06:48 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #css
16:06:51 <fantasai> Administrative: no more agenda items
16:06:57 <fantasai> Topic: CSS Test Suite
16:07:09 <glazou> Zakim, [Microsoft] has JohnJansen 
16:07:09 <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
16:07:20 <fantasai> arronei: Lots of tests need updating in response to review comments. Plan to get these done before the F2F.
16:07:24 <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1
16:07:25 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-120
16:07:49 <Zakim> +David_Baron
16:08:07 <fantasai> glazou: Asked everyone to review issue 120, and if no comments, it's accepted
16:08:26 <fantasai> glazou: Are there any comments?
16:08:27 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
16:08:45 <fantasai> Bert: I just sent my review of the text. I had three places where I didn't agree with the replacements.
16:09:16 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0050.html
16:11:34 <fantasai> Bert: block-level is not defined
16:12:05 <fantasai> Bert: second issue is the definition of atomic inline box
16:12:14 <fantasai> Bert: I'm wondering if it's necessary -- it's only used in one place
16:13:25 <fantasai> fantasai: That seems alright to me.
16:13:55 <fantasai> Steve: I'm fine with that as a resolution. However if we ever get around to Tab's split of the 'display' property or something similar, it would be a useful term to have.
16:14:06 <fantasai> Steve: The concept is a useful one for people to understand
16:15:18 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:15:25 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:15:25 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:15:43 <fantasai> fantasai agrees with Steve
16:15:45 <Zakim> -dsinger
16:16:08 <fantasai> Steve: If there's no harm in introducing it here, it could be useful in the future.
16:16:48 <fantasai> Bert: My third comment is wrt its use in the z-index property description, where I don't think we should use it.
16:17:00 <fantasai> Bert: So we would define the term but not use it anywhere in CSS2
16:17:14 <fantasai> Steve: That's fine, I think just the recognition that there is such a thing would be useful.
16:17:41 <fantasai> Bert: The other changes seem fine to me.
16:18:51 <fantasai> fantasai: There were some comments on the mailing list, mostly editorial, about improving the text there. I will need to incorporate those as well.
16:18:53 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-167
16:19:03 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Proposal for 120 accepted with changes mentioned above.
16:19:42 <fantasai> Bert's response to 167: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0052.html
16:19:49 <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aabb
16:19:55 <TabAtkins_> Zakim, aabb is me
16:19:55 <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
16:19:59 <glazou> hi tabatkins 
16:20:21 <fantasai> Bert: In some cases a backslash is not an escaping mechanism.
16:20:49 <fantasai> Bert: The way he defines that is to say it has "no special meaning", and then defines "no special meaning" inside a note, which is a non-normative part.
16:21:09 <fantasai> Bert: Otherwise I think his changes are fine, other than the non-normative part.
16:21:26 <fantasai> Bert: I would rather not define "no special meaning", but instead just say that the backslash stands for itself directly.
16:21:45 <fantasai> glazou: Other comments?
16:22:34 <fantasai> fantasai: I agree with Bert's changes, and I trust Bert to have made sure the proposal is correct
16:22:53 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-118
16:22:55 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for issue 167 as corrected by Bert
16:23:32 <fantasai> Steve: Basically I went back and looked at OpenType standard, and then checked with some font guys at Adobe to make sure I understood it.
16:23:57 <fantasai> Steve: THe catch is, the em-box a) isn't really defined, other than to say that the coordinate system used in other values is given in units per em
16:24:09 <fantasai> Steve: and b) its position is not really defined
16:24:29 <fantasai> Steve: The ascent and descent values which dbaron mentioned are related to this
16:24:53 <fantasai> Steve: There are three sets of such values
16:24:59 <fantasai> Steve: One that tends to be Mac-centric
16:25:05 <fantasai> Steve: One set tends to be Windows-centric
16:25:23 <fantasai> Steve: And the third set, were put in to be platform independent.
16:25:37 <fantasai> Steve: Those should be used if they exist.
16:25:49 <fantasai> Steve: Then it's recommended that the distance between them equal one em, but it's not required.
16:26:00 <fantasai> Steve: There are fonts for which it doesn't hold.
16:26:25 <Zakim> -bradk
16:26:27 <fantasai> Steve: I suggest the difference between that and an em be split, half above and half below, just like leading
16:26:43 <Zakim> +bradk
16:26:45 <fantasai> Steve: The last point is, the reason you need to do that is that leading + embox  = line height.
16:27:30 <fantasai> glazou: Do you mean we can't rely on the font's definitionof embox because it doesn't exist?
16:27:40 <fantasai> Steve: Right. I didn't get as far as suggesting a rewording of the text.
16:27:47 <fantasai> Steve: I got hung up on what centering meant.
16:28:34 <fantasai> Bert: I can come up with wording for that.
16:28:47 <fantasai> Bert: I have one concern which is, this applies to OpenType, but what about other font formats?
16:29:14 <fantasai> Steve: I think the general approach I talk about works for any font with ascent and descent information. We assume that information exists.
16:29:29 <fantasai> dbaron: We could say more broadly for any font that has any measurement relating the baseline to the edges of it
16:29:51 <fantasai> dbaron: What Steve describes matches what we implement more than Bert's definition.
16:30:11 <fantasai> dbaron: Although we never calculate the em-box, we just use the ascent and descent direction -- which is a shortcut for the same results.
16:30:27 <fantasai> Bert: Do we still keep the references to OpenType fields?
16:30:34 <fantasai> Steve: I would put it in an appendix or a note.
16:31:52 <dbaron> s/descent direction/descent and compute the half-leading differently/
16:31:53 <fantasai> fantasai: I would suggest putting the field names in a note, but using ascent and descent generically in the normative text.
16:33:03 <fantasai> Brad would like to make sure there's interop for the use of OpenType tables.
16:33:09 <fantasai> Steve suggests writing a test.
16:33:50 <fantasai> Bert: I think we can't make this more precise wrt OpenType in CSS2.
16:33:58 <fantasai> glazou: Do you have enough to come up up with wording?
16:34:01 <fantasai> Bert: I think so
16:34:20 <fantasai> ACTION: Bert to write updated proposal for 167
16:34:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-247 - Write updated proposal for 167 [on Bert Bos - due 2010-08-11].
16:34:52 <fantasai> glazou: Any progress on other issues?
16:36:21 <fantasai> glazou: Let's have proposals done by the F2F
16:37:04 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
16:37:15 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (47%), arronei (13%), Bert (34%)
16:37:50 <fantasai> glazou: Issue 181
16:38:02 <dbaron> TabAtkins_, Where's the message you mentioned sending that had questions about margin collapsing?
16:38:05 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-181
16:39:02 <fantasai> fantasai suggests 184-186 being more important to discuss
16:39:18 <TabAtkins_> dbaron, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0525.html and 528
16:40:23 <fantasai> Tab: I think several things are way easier if you consider pseudo-elements as part of the element tree
16:40:37 <fantasai> Bert: But then the element tree is not a tree
16:42:41 <fantasai> glazou: Could say which sections pseudo-elements are treated as elements
16:42:53 <fantasai> fantasai: That would be pretty much the entire spec except the Selectors chapter
16:44:21 <fantasai> SteveZ: I support the "except" proposal in the issues list
16:45:32 <fantasai> dbaron: I might go so far as saying :before and :after are treated as real elements except where specified, and have :first-line and :first-letter just be defined by the Selectors chapter
16:45:46 <fantasai> fantasai: That doesn't give them enough definition -- e.g. how do we assign properties to them?
16:45:53 <fantasai> dbaron: That's already pretty bizarre
16:48:44 <fantasai> glazou: "Pseudo-elements behave just like real elements except as described below and elsewhere."
16:49:01 <fantasai> Steve: But then I have to search the entire spec.
16:49:13 <fantasai> Steve: At least point to the relevant sections
16:50:03 <fantasai> fantasai: I think the relevant section is 12.1
16:50:21 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-185
16:50:21 <fantasai> RESOLVED: "Pseudo-elements behave just like real element except as described below and in section 12.1"
16:51:28 <fantasai> dbaron: There are 2 different cases here, and I'm not sure which one he tested.
16:52:04 <fantasai> dbaron: There's one where you have a zero-height float whose position is right at the edge of a line
16:52:22 <fantasai> dbaron: And the other is where you have a zero-height float whose position is in the middle of the line (e.g. below another float)
16:53:10 <fantasai> dbaron: If the top of a float is even with the bottom of a line, or the bottom of a float is even with the top of a line, that's not considered an intersection.
16:53:18 <fantasai> dbaron: I'm not sure about the case of a zero-height float in the middle of a line
16:53:31 <fantasai> dbaron: But we should be careful that we're testing the right cases here.
16:54:35 <fantasai> ...
16:55:25 <fantasai> dbaron: There's another bug in browsers where floats that don't intersect the top of a line are not considered. This shows up in Wikipedia a lot because they use floats for their intended purpose.
16:55:37 <fantasai> dbaron: The only browsers that handle that right are IE6 and recent versions of Gecko
16:55:43 <dbaron> IE6/IE7
16:55:46 <dbaron> I think
16:56:00 <glazou> sylvaing: hey *I* did not get married last month ;-)
16:56:24 <fantasai> Tab: If you have two floats stacked on top of each other, one which is at the top of a line, and then a cleared float in the middle of the line, that second float doesn't push the line box even if it's wider than the line box.
16:56:49 <fantasai> Tab: In Gecko it pushes only if it's visible; if it's zero height it doesn't.
16:57:25 <fantasai> Tab: I don't mind Gecko's current behavior. And everyone else who doesn't match, they have a bug anyway.
16:58:12 <fantasai> Tab: I could go either way on it -- detecting or not detecting zero-height floats both make sense.
16:58:38 <fantasai> SteveZ: It makes sense for consistency to ignore it; since when it falls between lines it's ignored.
16:59:05 <fantasai> SteveZ: Why would one have a zero-height float?
16:59:18 <fantasai> SteveZ: I understand how it can happen; but is there a use case for it?
16:59:25 <fantasai> Tab can't think of one
16:59:38 <fantasai> Bert: It's a bit like positioned elements, that it's positioned at the auto position
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17:00:18 <fantasai> Bert: I don't know if it would make sense to use a zero-height float instead of abspos, but if you wanted to make it overlap...
17:00:58 <Zakim> -smfr
17:02:03 <fantasai> Brad: What about a transition from zero-height to another height?
17:02:25 <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
17:02:30 <fantasai> Brad: You might want to cause reflow vertically, but not horizontally.
17:03:06 <fantasai> SteveZ:  Is there a use case that isn't an edge use case for this?
17:03:47 <fantasai> glazou: If we have no use case, what do you suggest?
17:04:03 <fantasai> SteveZ: If we have interop, then it seems strange to break that.
17:04:08 <fantasai> Bert: What interop do we have?
17:04:52 <fantasai> dbaron: The other possibility is that we say zero-height floats never push lines. Which is nice, because it makes one implementation strategy easier.
17:05:21 <fantasai> dbaron: We split each side of a bfc into vertical ranges, and we check for whether to push lines by checking for an intersection.
17:05:37 <fantasai> dbaron: If we need to check for zero-height floats, then we need to deal with zero-height ranges, which is a bit of a pain.
17:05:43 <TabAtkins_> Isn't that exactly what's being proposed?
17:06:00 <fantasai> dbaron: If floats are changing height, there will be a lot of reflow anyway
17:06:50 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:06:51 <Zakim> -bradk
17:06:52 <Zakim> -sylvaing
17:06:53 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:06:54 <Zakim> -David_Baron
17:06:54 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:06:55 <Zakim> -Bert
17:06:56 <Zakim> -glazou
17:06:57 <fantasai> SteveZ: So, proposed to make zero-height floats not affect line boxes, will ask for objections and resolve next week.
17:07:04 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:07:07 <Zakim> -arronei
17:07:20 <Zakim> -plinss_
17:07:21 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:07:23 <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, dsinger, arronei, plinss_, Bert, sylvaing, +1.650.766.aaaa, bradk, smfr, SteveZ, fantasai, JohnJansen, David_Baron, +1.650.214.aabb, TabAtkins_
17:08:25 <TabAtkins_> arronei: You can call me whenever.  Same number as before.
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22:05:23 <fantasai> anne: Did the URI spec you were talking about in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0321.html ever get written?
22:09:10 <fantasai> jdaggett: Can I assume http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0330.html is on your radar somewhere?
22:31:44 <jdaggett> that was added to appendix a
22:31:53 <jdaggett> er, maybe that's b now
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